Her parents made an awfully fast transition from:

"I think [Kerry]’s a sleazeball." (link)

to:

"We appreciate the way Senator Kerry has handled the situation, and intend on voting for him for president of the United States." (link)

Mickey Kaus draws the apposite Manchurian Candidate comparison:

"Senator Kerry is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being we've ever known in our lives."

I was thinking it could ahve been set out to bait the GOP. I also wonder why an intern would want to have an affair with this JFK. I love how my Canadian girlfriend and soon-to-be-fiance calls him a prune and mentioned CBC likes him especially for being anti-war and she was shocked to learn that he voted for the Iraq resolution. She is fairly apolitical (though she loved bashing Chretien), but she already think Kerry is a hypocrite.

"Her parents made an awfully fast transition from:"

Amazing what big gobs of cash will do to make problems go away, huh? Hypothetically speaking, of course*. I'd also hypothetically hope that any hypothetical people hypothetically engaged in such hypothetical behavior hypothetically squeezed the hypothetical candidate until he hypothetically screamed...

Moe

*And if I were making such an accusation it would be accompanied by a note that no moral judgments were being made about the situation, on either side. But I am not making such an accusation, of course, so there is no need to so note... :)

Predictably, the media has managed to turn doing the right thing (for once) into an illustration of how biased and partisan they are. Their reticence in running with this story until they had better sourcing was commendable, but only throws into sharper relief their utter lack of any such standards when a Republicans neck is on the block.

Drudge has a priceless set of quotes from Big Media types about how pursuing, on the front page, an unsubstantiated rumor that Bush Sr. was having an affair was the Right Thing To Do that contrasts rather poorly with their newfound respect for accuracy. Similarly, Big Media has no problem flogging the dead horse of the AWOL story at the very same time it refuses to touch the equally well sourced Kerry intern story.

I dunno.... I said before that, if it were true, then it would have been a legitimate character / workplace ethics issue. But I also said that if the allegations weren't true, then they'd follow Kerry anyway.

It looks like the allegations aren't true, though I'm sure anti-Kerry partisans will cling to it. I'm pro-Bush, but I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt. So unless there's some compelling evidence to be had, the issue to me is closed.

In a strange way, the mainstream media's hammering of the Bush AWOL story may help the president.

As a straight, white, male, conservative I pretty much fall into Bush's core constituency but, like a lot of conservatives, I've found plenty to grumble about the last few years. I was always going to vote for Bush - after all our nation's security is something that matters to me. But the effect of the coverage (particularly the Washington Post this weekend) was so awful, so full of irrelevant information that could only be there to knock down the president, that I am determined to do whatever I can to ensure he is reelected.

Or maybe the story is true but they got the wrong woman.

IIRC, too lazy to look it up, Drudge never said intern. The only mention of intern was the comment from Clark that Kerry would have an "intern moment" (or something to that effect) which doesn't necessarily mean an actual intern, just a moment like Clinton's "intern moment".

No, it was not an intern. Further reports indicate either an altar boy, or Jane Fonda.

"the John Kerry intern scandal is about as substance free as the Bush AWOL story"...

Since when is the Bush AWOL story "substance-free"?! Let's recap all that's developed so far, shall we:

First the Administration provides payroll records proving that he got paid for...whatever it was he did OR didn't do. Proves nothing.

Second the Administration provides dental records proving he got his teeth cleaned. Proves nothing, once again.

And finally they released a massive 400-page document of "what they were able to find" of his military record. Funny thing is these 400 PAGES contained only 1 SINGLE STATEMENT having anything to do with his service between the months of May-1972 to May-1973 and all it says is that he got transfered to Alabama.

Come on, Michael. You're a reasonable guy. Does 400 pages of military record somehow excluding an entire year, THE ENTIRE YEAR IN QUESTION, make any sense to you? Just because a nutcase like Michael Moore first brought attention to it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't true.

There's a reason Terry McAuliffe risked his entire career to latch on to this, my friend: Because it's not that nutty and the facts (or lack thereof) speak for themselves. John Kerry and Wesley Clark both had no problem whatsoever handing over their ENTIRE military records. This doesn't add up and you know it.

Prove me wrong, Michael. Prove me wrong.

"Prove me wrong, Michael. Prove me wrong."

Here you go, Grant.

Two long threads on the topic with many links to documents, personal anecdotes of Guard service, political posturing, etc. Much hard information mixed in with opinion.

Thorough analysis of the Bush AWOL/deserter claim. Lots of attitude, but lots of documentation.

doubts cast on veracity of Former Natl Guard officer calls Bush's records "sanitized."

Bush records released to media.

Retired Air National Guard colonel who served with Bush.

Analysis by Phil Carter, who is an expert military analyst and served in the National Guard himself.

Just FYI: Someone on Rioger Simon's thread claims "inside the Beltway" knowledge that Kerry is a longtime womanizer of Clintonian proportions.

Hmmmm....Does anyone out there have pay stubs showing that they got paid for work they did not do or days of work they were not in fact phyically present?
I just finished 26 1/2 years in the Marines. 1976-2002. The first six or those years were in the Reserves. Just for fun I flipped thru my bootleg copy of my service record book and all the piles of my old paperwork.
I guess I can never run for public office since I cannot account for lengthy blocks of time. There are whole years where I cannot think of a single person I served with whom I could call and would verify my presence.
I am not a rocket scientist, (26 years enlisted man USMC ought to establish that!) But does not all this, "Well just beacause Bush has all this documentation doesn't mean he still couldn't be AWOL" stuff fall into the catagory of some logical fallacy? Kind of a "When did you stop beating your wife?" sort of thig. Somebody wrote somewhere that if Bush was seen walking on water the press would report that's just because he probably can't swim.

Aside from whether or not she denies the allegation (and honestly, even if she did bonk him, who would want to be another Monica?), what does her employ as an intern have to do with anything.

If a married guy is nailing an intern next door, that's not light-years ahead of nailing your own intern. Granted, it's not the same exact thing, but not really a huge improvement, either.

Yehudit...

Okay, you know it's kinda funny. You produce umpteen links and articles supposedly proving everything I said wrong but not a single one empirically refutes the charges I included.

You provided partisan blogs. Whoopity-doo.

You provided the supposed "testimony" of a few folks who seem to remember him being there (all of which I was already was aware of) which in the end directly amount to nothing more than conjecture and heresay. There are supposed "eyewitnesses" providing contradictive "testimony" on BOTH sides of the issue. I never presented any of either side in what I wrote earlier because it's an incredibly weak argument either way.

You provide a Boston Globe article casting doubt upon the credibility of the "sanitized" witness guy. This I can halfway respect as valid. I had my doubts about that guy from the start but it simply goes to only prove my point further: What one guy says over the other could all be bullshit and doesn't prove a thing. It's still only hearsay.

And finally you provide a link to a CNN article. BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT I know I have you here. That very same article was the source I was using to make my "400-page" claim about the military records being incomplete. IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE THING you'd come across the following lines...

"The documents released contained only one statement related to his service between May 1972 and May 1973."

Those documents say, by the way, exactly only that he got transfered to Alabama (which is undeniably true and not even at issue here). They article says, in a nutshell, exactly what I wrote about the military records. I never took the article out of context. You did.

I'm open to the possibility that perhaps a few of his attendance records could have been lost over the years. But the idea that an entire year's worth could have been misplaced and that it's ONLY during the 12 months in question is a hell of a stretch.

Kerry had no problem detailing every bit of his attendance. Clark the same. When Bush produces the attendance records, then I'll believe him.

Until then, you have to admit my argument to be the more logical one.

Citizen Dave...

First of all, thank you for serving your country. I can wholeheartedly respect that. But, now let me get to the substance of what you were saying...

You speak of "logical fallicies" and "all this documentation" Bush has provided. For starters, "all that documentation" is next to nothing between the months of May-72 and May-73.

All that we know for sure during those months is that Bush got paid and got his teeth cleaned and that's it. Considering the audacious strings pulled to get him into the Guard in the first place, is it really that hard to concieve of his paychecks never stopping when he doesn't show up? Had they stopped he would have got his ass shipped overseas for sure. This is all just speculation and I can't prove any of it, but neither can you prove that he got paid for actually showing up. All we can know for sure is that he got paid, period. It's merely conjecture and hearsay beyond that either way and, thereby, irrelevant to the case for or against.

You say there are large chunks of your service you can't specifically recall. I'm sure the same could be said for any serviceman, including Bush, but that's not really at dispute here. At dispute is a tangible record or evidence of his attendance for drills between the months of May-72 and May-73. Thus far, not a shred of tangible evidence has been provided FOR THAT ENTIRE YEAR! He can't even muster up a single weekend's attendance record.

Objectively you have to ask yourself, "Provided the evidence, which set of circumstances is more logical...that he showed up every weekend but that ALL records of it have been lost or that, in what remains of those records, there's something worth hiding."

They whipped out his dental records for Christ's sake! His DENTAL RECORDS! Are there no better records than that?! Be honest with yourself.

Grant McEntire: You provided the supposed "testimony" of a few folks who seem to remember him being there (all of which I was already was aware of) which in the end directly amount to nothing more than conjecture and heresay.

Eyewitness accounts (e.g., "I saw him there at the time in question") aren't "hearsay" or "conjecture". Look up words before you use them if you're not sure what they mean. The supposed witnesses may be mistaken or lying, but that wouldn't turn their statements into "hearsay".

I was a Marine and Army reservist from 1984-1990, and my service records are as incomplete as Citizen Dave's (see above). Unless someone can show that the Texas and Alabama National Guards are/were ordinarily far more meticulous recordkeepers than the national services, I'm going to tentatively conclude that the "Bush AWOL" slur is an empty non-story.

Grant,
You're welcome. I can't begin to express my heartfelt appreciation for all those tax dollars I pissed away during those 26 odd years of service.
I guess what I was really getting at is this. I have heard enough to convince me that Bush probably did enough service to rate his participation as satisfactory. Based on my personal knowledge of "how things work" in the reserve/guard community, the explanations offered are reasonable. To insist on the level of documentation that his opponents want is not reasonable. Non military folks have a bunch of data without the context to understand it. They focus on items that I know thru personal long term experience are not significant.
I don't like Bush, and I don't like reservists. Even if it were possible to document Bush's 100% attendence at every drill, he is still a weenie for going into the Guard in the first place. The food fight here is over a distinction without much of a difference. A reservist with perfect attendence gets no more respect from me than a reservist who found ways to scam out of a bunch of drills.

MDP...

Thanks for nitpicking my words, buddy. I'll have to be more careful next time, lest I offend you again (or distract you from the overwhelming weight of my critique). So, yes, in the strictest sense you are correct in that someone saying they saw Bush is not hearsay. It would actually be direct evidence. Problem is alot of people are also saying they were there every day and that they would have most definitely seen him had he been there and that they DIDN'T, which amounts to contradicting eyewitness accounts of direct evidence. In this regard, the contradicting stories of what God knows how many men saw or didn't see of our current President decades ago takes more the form of circumstantial evidence in that it far from proves the truth of the situation.

I was trying to point out that all these conflicting stories each about have the substantive weight of a rumor. I was trying to skip ahead to this rumor idea by simply saying "hearsay" which is in and of itself incorrect to say, to save the time and space of not having to explain it all out.

Guess I shouldn't have done that. Guess I should have just written this huge explanation earlier. Thanks for calling me out, buddy. I'll make sure to write a dissertation next time, just for you.

Citizen Dave...

Your points are well taken (though I'm still not so sure what that whole pissing away tax dollars thing is getting at). I wish to God that more people were just flat out attacking Bush for going into the Guard, too. When there's a draft, it is a pretty pathetic thing to do.

I'm willing to concede that you may be right...that Bush may have showed up for all those drills, afterall. I'm still pretty unconvinced, though. And, yeah, it does matter whether or not he even bothered to fulfill a half-hearted duty to his country, if you ask me.

As far as I know, in that 400-page document there are attendance records for all the other years he served. Maybe there are a few months missing, I dunno. But, for an entire year, attendance records of his unit in Alabama show no evidence whatsoever of him being there and his own supposed personnel chief is quoted as saying he never saw or met the guy.

We can all argue the merits and probabilities of this until we're blue in the face but it's far too much of a coincidence for me to swallow. Dubya's said that, "There may be no evidence, but I did report; otherwise I wouldn't have been honorably discharged." Fully aware of the immense power of his family legacy, I hear this and laugh. The guy truly was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple, as they say.

I could be right, I could be wrong. But regardless, I imagine someone had to die in his place. The guy's still a chickenhawk. Period.

Grant McEntire: So, yes, in the strictest sense you are correct in that someone saying they saw Bush is not hearsay.

No, not "in the strictest sense," but in any sense. You might as well have originally said that the putative witnesses' accounts could be dismissed because of the laws of thermodynamics. "Hearsay" isn't an ambiguous term.

And someone who says, "I saw Bush at drill in Alalbama that year," isn't making a "conjecture" except in the sense that any statement based on memory is "conjecture."

You don't need to write a "dissertation" to make your point. Just stop using words in a way that bears no relation to their ordinary meaning.

Grant McEntire: I'll have to be more careful next time, lest I ... distract you from the overwhelming weight of my critique... Problem is alot of people are also saying they were there every day and that they would have most definitely seen him had he been there and that they DIDN'T, which amounts to contradicting eyewitness accounts of direct evidence.

Spoken like a man who's never been in the reserves or national guard. I served as "recently" as the late '80s, and I doubt I could recall the faces, let alone the names, of most people in my units. You only see them about two days per month, and if you ever have to make up missed drill days during weekdays, then you see even less of them.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that some or most people in the Alabama unit don't remember a guy from another unit who temporarily drilled with them for about a year over 3 decades ago.

Grant McEntire: I was trying to point out that all these conflicting stories each about have the substantive weight of a rumor.

It's not as simple as that. If one guy says, "I recall seeing person X," and another guy says, "I don't recall seeing person X," the two accounts conflict only if the circumstances are such that we would expect most/all witnesses to register and recall the event. As I have been trying to point out, there is no good reason (that I'm aware of) to expect most of the Alabama personnel to have any clear recollection of Bush's (claimed) brief stay.

Grant McEntire: The guy's still a chickenhawk. Period.

Is that so clear? Bush joined the 147th Fighter Group in May of 1968. In 1966, the Air Force gave the 147th the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award as "the most combat ready of all Air Guard units." From 1968 to 1970, pilots from the 147th took part in operation "Palace Alert" and flew other combat missions in Vietnam.

McEntire is another jerk-off who doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the military, and then tries to compensate with sophistry.

McEntire never served, he never will serve, and he never even thought about serving.

I am so tired of seeing ignorant assholes blather on about this, I can't even remain polite anymore.

Shut the fuck up.

I served in the Nat'l Guard for about a year and half before I went active duty (Navy). This was in '84 or '85. There are maybe three or four people I can remember out of my unit, a couple friends and the one good looking girl. If George W. Bush had been in my unit but not in that tiny aforementioned group I wouldn't know it.

I read in either yesterday's NY Post or Daily News that she denied working for him etc... however, her father was quoted as stating that he and his daughter thought the guy was a sleezeball, and that he was calling their house several times a week or so, to try and ask her or persuade her to intern for him in Washington. She declined and while the mother said she would vote for him none of them including the mom, denied or took back the father's statement regarding Kerry above.

SO TAKE THAT FOR WHAT ITS WORTH.

Eric...

You're completely out of line, man. Attack what I say. Call it ridiculous. Conclude that what I'm SAYING is bullshit if you wish. I don't care. You have every right in the world to think that...and to say it as much as you want.

But don't attack me. You don't know me from Adam. You don't know just how many meetings I had a few years ago with an army recruiter before I finally decided on college, instead.

And don't you call me an "ignorant asshole jerk-off" and tell me to "shut the fuck up". I won't. I'll go on saying whatever the hell I feel like saying, ignorant or not. Its called freedom of speech: Something I'm assuming you served to protect.

You know, you could have simply gone about shredding my arguments as MDP, CITIZEN DAVE, MICHAEL, and RICK W have. They probably all only think as much of me as you do, but instead of acting ignorant and telling me to "shut the fuck up" they've simply destroyed just about everything I've said with logic and reason. I'll be the first person to admit as much...

And the first person to conceed that, in light of everything they've said, maybe I was wrong in thinking I was so certain of the truth I knew only a few days ago. I hear what they say and I'm starting to second-guess...and starting to change my mind. That's what these forums are for: Testing your beliefs and searching out the truth.

It's a shame you couldn't have gotten in on that, that you couldn't have been civil enough to argue a case as opposed to personally chopping me down when you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about me.

"Via Andrew Sullivan, it looks like the John Kerry intern scandal is about as substance-free the Bush AWOL story."

I think declaring an equivalence on these stories shows Michael's usual "independent" bias. There is more substance to the AWOL story for sure. At least it deserves more investigation. When Bush says he supported his government during the Vietnam war, I guess that means as long as I don't get sent there to fight it. Other questions remain beyond the AWOL allegation which is the hype part of this story. The big questions are: How did Bush get jumped to the top of the list for entering his squadron over other more qualified candidates. That has not been answered by any documents. The other question about Bush being deemed unfit for flying after failing to show for a physical seems pretty bad as well. Maybe not AWOL but certainly not a very good record for a man who plays dress up and flys onto aircraft carriers to declare "Mission Accomplished".

I also hear Prez Chimpy also didn't eat his string beans when he was 2. He was a bad boy. Of course the Frat Boy Shrub denies it, the liar he is.

You know who did his string beans at age 2?

John F. Kerry.

Take a guess who is getting my vote.

Okay, can you guys maybe attack this Graham fellow now? I'm pretty much down for the count.

He said the President "plays dress up". What a bastard! I bet he never served, either.

Seriously, give me a break here. ;)

To me it's transparent: Liberal Big Media are willingly passing off as "breaking news" barely rewritten DNC talking points. How can anyone help but contrast this incestuous arrangement with the mock-scrupulous spiking of the Kerry rumor?

Both stories should be killed until there is some kind of proof. As much as some of the Dems here are salivating over ousting the President, they'd better be careful. Elastic journalistic standards can just as easily snap back in your face once your guy is in power.

Thanks Grant for the redirect. Your flame suit is probably pretty hot by now. All I can say is uhhh, "Bring 'em on!". No I didn't serve in the military either, for starters. However, I paid enough federal tax last year to pay for my very own "Airman Basic" E-1.

Graham...

Hey man, nothing personal. Just feeling pretty damn stupid right about now having had everything I believed about the Guard story thrown into question and ripped to shreds. Maybe, the truth is we'll never really know. I had no idea that the record-keeping was so atrocious.

I like your..."When Bush says he supported his government during the Vietnam war, I guess that means as long as I don't get sent there to fight it"...comment, though.

And I still stand by what I said about him being a chickenhawk for trying to get a safe spot in the National Guard when there was a freaking draft going on. Dunno if any strings were pulled to make it happen...but, regardless, that's pretty sad.

Russert grilled his ass about it and Bush came back with some kind of comment like, "so what, do you have something against the National Guard?" Why Russert didn't turn around at this point and flat out tell him, "in a time of War with a draft going on, alot of folks might sir," is beyond me. Bush's defensive posture strikes me as the ultimate dodge to the question.

Anyway, I'm gonna shut my big damn mouth about this now. It's your turn, buddy.

Grant McEntire: You know, you could have simply gone about shredding my arguments as MDP, CITIZEN DAVE, MICHAEL, and RICK W have. They probably all only think as much of me as you do, but instead of acting ignorant and telling me to "shut the fuck up" they've simply destroyed just about everything I've said with logic and reason. I'll be the first person to admit as much... And the first person to conceed that, in light of everything they've said, maybe I was wrong in thinking I was so certain of the truth I knew only a few days ago. I hear what they say and I'm starting to second-guess...and starting to change my mind. That's what these forums are for: Testing your beliefs and searching out the truth.

My hat's off to you, Grant. That took a lot of guts to write (and about 10x more integrity than most blog commenters display).

(Btw, at least as far as the comments posted in this topic go, I'm both "Michael" and "MDP". I switched to the latter in order not to be confused with Michael Totten, but somehow the setting/cookie didn't stick.)

I'd like to know why the President didn't ask Russert: "What did you do during Vietnam, Tim?"

and oh, yah, flying fighter jets is a real cushy job too, isn't.

I know all I need to know about you and your ignorance by what you write.

I'd like to know why the President didn't ask Russert: "What did you do during Vietnam, Tim?"

This has to be the stupidest comment ever. Can you imagine any politician turning every hard question around on an interviewer? Can you imagine the backlash? That defensive tactic would further tarnish Bush's image as a defensive, incoherent interviwee.

As someone who would rather see almost anyone else run the country beside Bush, I hope eric lands a job as a Bush political adviser. Then, the wheels will come off the cart faster than you can say "regime change 2004". Keep the good ideas coming though.

Michael/MDP...

Thanks.

Graham, how will you handle the disappointment when Bush cruises to victory?

Sweeeet...

He's taking the heat off me! He's taking the heat off me!!!

Graham, how will you handle the disappointment when Bush cruises to victory?

If that happens, (which it won't of course) I plan to have a good long talk with John Hinkley Jr. about how Jodie Foster has been really upset that Bush was just re-elected.

Looks like I'm a couple of days late for this thread, but what is it exactly that some of you posters have against the National Guard?

AllyK...

I'll be kind enough to fill you in, albeit belatedly.

I think what myself and a few others may have against the Guard is this: Absolutely Nothing.

I've got a bigillion friends in the Guard. They're great people doing a great service to their country. The only problem we have with Bush getting into the Guard when he did was that there was a draft. To me, when there's a draft and you sign up to fight off Charlie with fighter planes in Texas and Alabama...well, that's tantamount to skipping out on fighting off Charlie (unless they infiltrated the Southern US and no one told me).

Bush had 3 distinct choices, really...

1. To skip out of going to Vietnam by dodging the draft completely.

2. To skip out of going to Vietnam by signing up for the National Guard.

3. Or to just grow a pair and go to Vietnam.

The second option is better than the first, but only by a slim margin. That's what ticks me off: That the most rootenest-tootenest gunslinging President in recent memory didn't even opt for #3 when he was my age. They say Dubya was a man "born on third and thinks he hit a triple". Skipping out of Vietnam at my age and then acting like a cowboy as President doesn't help to refute that any.

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