February 15, 2004

Vietnam at Half Volume

Mark Steyn paints John Kerry as the poster boy for Vietnam Syndrome.

Thanks to Kerry in his Hanoi Jane period, Vietnam was a disaster for America that gave the establishment a wholly irrational fear of almost every ramshackle Third World basket case on the planet. Look at what everyone from Arthur Schlesinger to Chris Matthews wrote about the ''unconquerable'' Afghans only two years ago. That defeatism was the Kerry legacy from the '70s: a terrified, Kerrified America.
True enough. John Kerry isn’t exactly Mr. Tough or Mr. Backbone.

But Steyn doesn’t seem to notice the good news farther up in his own column.

Look at Kerry's stump speech: ''We band of brothers,'' he says, indicating his fellow veterans. ''We're a little older, we're a little grayer, but we still know how to fight for this country.'' Thirty years ago, he came back from Vietnam and denounced his ''band of brothers'' as a gang of drug-fueled torturers, rapists and murderers.
He then proceeds to zing Kerry for his inconsistency. But let’s give Kerry some credit. Give the Democrats some credit. At least our soldiers aren’t still being libeled as baby killers, at least not by the establishment of the Democratic Party. (The goons in International ANSWER are another matter. They haven’t even caught up with the 60s. They’re still stuck in 1917.)

I believed (mistakenly, as it turns out) that the Vietnam Syndrome was buried in Bosnia. My own lukewarm pacifism did die in Sarajevo, but I was never scarred by Vietnam in the first place. I was a small child when Nixon pulled out, and I have no personal memory of it.

I’m glad to see that with Howard Dean’s primary loss, the worst of the anti-war paranoia will take a back seat in the election campaign. Kerry’s incoherent waffling on foreign policy is a problem for the Democrats, and it will be a problem if he’s elected. But even at his most extreme he doesn’t wistfully (at least not in public) recall his days with Hanoi Jane. He boasts about his service.

It was not so long ago that the Democrats had to play down the front-runner’s combat experience. It was unthinkable for them to tout their guy as a war hero. Even if it’s all image and no substance, it’s progress of a sort.


UPDATE: Turns out Kerry's 1971 testimony before Congress has been spun out of context. Kerry didn't quite say what Mark Steyn says he said. The New Republic has the details. (Thanks to Grant McEntire in the comments.)

Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 15, 2004 08:52 PM
Comments

I focused on this part of Steyn's article:

"Say what you like about us right-wing war mongers, but after Sept. 11 we abandoned our long-cherished theories of realpolitik -- find your local strongman and shovel millions of dollars at him -- as inadequate, and indeed part of the problem. Sentimental liberal internationalism -- everything has to be done through the U.N., no matter how stinkingly corrupt and ineffectual it is -- is just as inadequate to the challenges of the age. "

Fair enough that Kerry prefers to celebrate his comrade in his arms now, and good for him, but he needs to show that he's against supporting Iran's mullahs and having the U.N. (strongmen supporters to the end) make U.S. foreign policy decisions.

Posted by: Peter G at February 15, 2004 08:59 PM

When has John Kerry ever denounced his fellow vets as "a gang of drug-fueled torturers, rapists and murderers"? Mr. Steyn seems little different from Noam Chomsky when it comes to truthtelling.

Posted by: Steve Smith at February 15, 2004 09:05 PM

Michael, as I see it, John "Do you know who I am?" Kerry underscores the Vietnam problem. If he were at the minimum, consistent with his criticisms, I could buy that. It's his inconsistencies and waffling that makes me worry about him residing in the White House. A really scary thought.

Posted by: gmroper at February 15, 2004 09:05 PM

Steve Smith writes: "When has John Kerry ever denounced his fellow vets as "a gang of drug-fueled torturers, rapists and murderers"?"

Mr Smith, read Kerry's testimony to congress in the early 70's. Read "The New Soldier" and the ideas that he helped publicize in The Winter Soldier.

Posted by: gmroper at February 15, 2004 09:07 PM

"It was not so long ago that the Democrats had to play down the front-runner’s combat experience. It was unthinkable for them to tout their guy as a war hero."

Huh? When did that happen?

Posted by: anne.elk at February 15, 2004 09:12 PM

"At least our soldiers aren’t still being libeled as baby killers, at least not by the establishment of the Democratic Party"

Did this happen?

Posted by: anne.elk at February 15, 2004 09:14 PM

"I believed (mistakenly, as it turns out) that the Vietnam Syndrome was buried in Bosnia."

And here I thought most folks believed it buried in GHWB's Desert Storm, though the Powell Doctrine did live on until GWB killed it by sticking us into the no exit strategy Gulf War II.

Posted by: anne.elk at February 15, 2004 09:17 PM

Anne: Huh? When did that happen?

1972. George McGovern. He was a World War II hero, but that was seen by many in the Democratic Party as a liability in an anti-war candidate.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 15, 2004 09:30 PM

What exactly did NATO accomplish in the Balkans?

Posted by: Alan K. Henderson at February 15, 2004 09:35 PM

Alan: What exactly did NATO accomplish in the Balkans?

Projected power in the East, stopped the expansion of Greater Serbia, saved the lives of Bosnians and Kosovars, and earned some staunchly pro-American Muslim friends in Europe who, let us hope, might come in handy some day.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 15, 2004 09:58 PM

Michael,

Would you give me a citation that they played the experience down? It's an interesting conjecture....

A few minutes with google acknowledges that the McGovern campaign did not play his war experience up, but (weakly) explains that as not wanting to confuse that with his anti-bombing message. Most likely an error, but still a failure of the McGovern Campaign to play his experience up, is not the same as the Democrats playing his experience down because it was "unthinkable to tout their guy as a war hero" -- and Mark Shields explains how he tried to convince McGovern to do that, just as Shields had done for another democrat in his election.

Another writer explains (again weakly as far as I am concerned) that most WWII veterans did not like to discuss their experiences or portray themselves as heroes.

Posted by: anne.elk at February 15, 2004 10:28 PM

Mr Smith, read Kerry's testimony to congress in the early 70's. Read "The New Soldier" and the ideas that he helped publicize in The Winter Soldier.

There is nothing in that testimony or his public comments from that period which suggest, in any way, that he denounced his fellow soldiers as "a gang of drug-fueled torturers, rapists and murderers". Like the fake photo that has John Kerry standing next to Jane Fonda, you're relying on a portion of that testimony dowdified by Ann Coulter and Mark Steyn, rather than actually examining the real thing.

MT: In fact, George McGovern played up the fact that he was a WWII veteran during that campaign; he even mentioned it in his acceptance speech at the 1972 convention. Since his principal opponent for the nomination, Hubert Humphrey, had avoided combat in that war, it gave him additional credibility. Even at its most dovish, you would be hard-pressed to identify a single elected leader of the Democratic Party who has ever called one of our soldiers a "baby-killer".

Posted by: Steve Smith at February 15, 2004 10:38 PM

So, Steve, you're saying the Democrats haven't changed at all on foriegn policy since the middle of the Vietnam War? I'm not seeing it that way, but perhaps we're just focusing on different aspects of that era. Either way, I find that a strange position for you to be arguing.

True enough that elected Democrats weren't in the habit of calling soldiers "baby killers." And thankfully the rank and file aren't doing it now either. The rank and file think it's good that Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam. That's progress, and that's my point.

Anne: Would you give me a citation that they played the experience down?

No need. You found it yourself.

A few minutes with google acknowledges that the McGovern campaign did not play his war experience up, but (weakly) explains that as not wanting to confuse that with his anti-bombing message.

There you go. You and I might spin that in hair-splittingly different ways, but we are basically on the same page.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 15, 2004 10:56 PM

"The rank and file think it's good that Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam. That's progress, and that's my point."

The only reason the Dems are trumpeting Kerry's Viet Nam credentials is to attack Bush as a "draft dodger". It's all a matter of political expediency and has nothing whatsoever to do with principal. It's pathetic, really.

Posted by: Paul Branin at February 16, 2004 12:35 AM

It seems Mr. Steyn's not the only one trying to pull this bogus out-of-context crap w/ Kerry's testimony...

There's a straight-forward and honest detailing of just what the echo-chamber types are after at The New Republic's online site. You gotta love TNR...they cut out all the bullshit:

www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040223&s=notebook022304_2

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 16, 2004 12:38 AM

I can't believe you see Kerry's current praise and affection for the "band of brothers" as anything other than what it transparently is -- political convenience.

Utterly cynical opportunism is not "progress." It's just someone who doesn't give a damn about anything other than his own ambitions. The Democratic primary voters either agree with this stance or have nowhere else to turn and no other kind of leadership to offer the country.

Posted by: Judith at February 16, 2004 05:12 AM

Conspiracy pusher A: "Bill Clinton had Vince Foster murdured because Foster knew too much about Whitewater, Monica Lewinsky and Clinton's drug dealing back in Arkansas. He is unfit for office."

Conspiracy pusher B: "Bill Clinton has been accused of having Vince Foster murdured because Foster knew too much about Whitewater, Monica Lewinsky and Clinton's drug dealing back in Arkansas. These allegations call into question his fitness for office."

Kerry's comments aren't being spun. In his Congressional testimony he repeated without question allegations of atrocities from the "Winter Soldier Investigation" paid for by Jane Fonda that later turned out to be fabrications:

"[Kerry] joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and emceed the Winter Soldier Investigation (both financed by Jane Fonda). Many veterans believe these protests led to more American deaths, and to the enslavement of the people on whose behalf the protests were ostensibly being undertaken. But being a take-charge kind of guy, Mr. Kerry became a leader in the VVAW and even testified before Congress on the findings of the Investigation, which he accepted at face value.

In his book "Stolen Valor," B.G. Burkett points out that Mr. Kerry liberally used phony veterans to testify to atrocities they could not possibly have committed. "

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200401270825.asp

VVAW is a wacko left-wing outfit that has many ties with ANSWER.

http://www.vvaw.org/

Yet Kerry still proudly recounts his history with VVAW on his web site.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/

Kerry isn't being spun. He is the spinner. The man is a complete disgrace. His personal bravery in no way compensates for the immeasurabe damage he has done to our national security since returning from Vietnam.

Posted by: HA at February 16, 2004 05:28 AM

Anne: Obviously you are younger than I because the returning Vietnam vets were villified as baby killers and worse.

One of the unfortunate side effects of this was that returning medical personnel who had developed and/or learned the lifesaving trauma techniques used in Vietnam had a difficult time for a while in getting American trauma medicine to adapt these techniques. Often because these veterans were so shunned.

Posted by: tallan at February 16, 2004 05:32 AM

HA's right. The New Republic piece is grasping at straws.

Posted by: Jim at February 16, 2004 05:35 AM

TNR is being more than a tad disingenuous, there. I don't know the extent of Kerry's involvement in initiating and carrying out the "Winter Soldier" "investigation", but he certainly embraced it, and spoke as a representative of VVAW.

Most of the most prominent allegations have been thoroughly debunked, largely by establishing that the alleged participants in various atrocities weren't there (which is not to deny that atrocities occurred). Here, direct quotes from Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony:

"I would like to say for the record, and for the men behind me
who are also wearing the uniform and their medals, that my
being here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry, but
as one member of a group of one thousand, which in turn is a
small representation of a very much larger group of veterans
in this country. Were it possible for all of them to sit at
this table they would be here and present the same kind of
testimony.
WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and
many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with
the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the
power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food
stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done
by the applied bombing power of this country."

As far as I can tell, there is no online access to the proceedings transcript. The record is: Legislative Proposals Relating to the War in Southeast Asia, Hearings before the Committee on Foreign
Relations, United States Senate, Ninety-Second Congress, First Session (April-May 1971), Washington: Government Printing Office, 1971. Kerry's participation starts at p.180.

Posted by: Alene Berk at February 16, 2004 06:10 AM

"Say what you like about us right-wing war mongers, but after Sept. 11 we abandoned our long-cherished theories of realpolitik -- find your local strongman and shovel millions of dollars at him -- as inadequate, and indeed part of the problem.

Oh really? Perhaps someone should clue Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan in on this:

ILHAM ALIYEV was inaugurated as president of the oil-rich Muslim country of Azerbaijan three months ago after an election condemned by international observers as blatantly fraudulent. When members of the opposition tried to protest, they were brutally beaten by police. There followed a massive, nationwide crackdown in which more than 1,000 people were arrested, including opposition leaders, activists from nongovernmental organizations, journalists and election officials who objected to the fraud. More than 100 remain in prison, including most of the senior opposition activists. A new report by Human Rights Watch documents numerous cases of torture, including severe beatings, electric shock, and threats of rape against the opposition leaders. Mr. Aliyev, who succeeded his strongman father, meanwhile has been consolidating dictatorial powers: Most recently he was named director of Azerbaijani radio and television. The president and his top aides have embraced Mr. Aliyev, excused his fraud and ignored his human rights violations -- not to mention reliable reports of his personal corruption. The administration waived congressional restrictions to grant Azerbaijan $3 million in military aid and is winding up to give still more. The Pentagon is talking with Azeri officials about the possible use of bases for U.S. operations. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld visited Baku last month to confer with Mr. Aliyev. When asked about the electoral fraud, he replied: "The United States has a relationship with this country. We value it." Said Mr. Aliyev proudly: "The United States is a strategic partner."

I would imagine Islam Kerimov is alos laughing at Steyn's comments:

Uzbekistan has imprisoned more than 6,000 independent Muslims—Muslims who practice their faith outside government-controlled mosques and religious institutions—for the peaceful expression of their religious beliefs. On February 12, a 62-year-old woman in Tashkent was the latest to be convicted. Fatima Mukhadirova was sentenced in a closed court hearing to six years in prison with hard labor for possession of unsanctioned religious literature, membership in a prohibited religious organization, and “attempted encroachment on the constitutional order.” Mukhadirova is the mother of the late Muzafar Avazov, a religious prisoner who died from torture in prison in August 2002. An investigation of his death by the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture concluded that Avazov had been submerged in boiling water. Those who saw his body also reported that there was a large, bloody wound on the back of his head, heavy bruising on his forehead and the side of his neck, and that his hands had no fingernails.

Past is becoming prologue yet again.

Posted by: Randy Paul at February 16, 2004 06:53 AM

I believed (mistakenly, as it turns out) that the Vietnam Syndrome was buried in Bosnia. My own lukewarm pacifism did die in Sarajevo, but I was never scarred by Vietnam in the first place.

Admirable recognition Michael, I actually campaigned for McGovern as a teenager, the true reality is this. For many Republicans and Independents (not me though) Vietnam Syndrome was buried by Reagan. I am beginning to wonder if this syndrome is a fairly exclusive disease of the left.

The goons in International ANSWER are another matter. They haven’t even caught up with the 60s

Michael huge understatement. The left-liberal complicity with Answer can’t be rejected out of hand so easily. The following is part of my “Why I am A Neo-Con” testimonial and describes my experience at the Answer sponsored "Peace-March". Here it is...

THE DISASTER

What was the disaster? On Jan 18th 2003 I took my 3 oldest children and left to attend the peace march in the Nation’s Capitol. My wife couldn’t attend because our 3 year old son was very sick and she wanted to tend to him. What I am about to tell you can’t be denied because, I was there!

…we went to march and what did we find? Anarchists walking around looking for trouble acting like hooligans and hoodlums, anti-globalization freaks campaigning against capitalism the “plunderers of the world”, a sign of President Bush morphed into Adolf Hitler reads “Don’t let history repeat itself!”, My God! Adolf Hitler, Bush the Nazi? Signs blaming the U.S., signs blaming Israel, signs calling for Israel to Disarm (THAT IS SUICIDE!!!), sexual references to a woman’s anatomy when referring to the president’s name, signs making the war an environmental issue, of course no blood for oil, Death to the U.S., and Death to Israel! This is a peace march?

...the only two countries to blame here were the United States and Israel. My God! This isn’t Europe! This is the Nations Capitol! NOT ONE SIGN DECRYING THE PLIGHT OF THE IRAQIS UNDER THE RULE OF SAADAM HUSSEIN, ONLY THE CASUALTIES THAT THEY CLAIMED WE WERE ABOUT TO INFLICT UPON THEM. Plenty of good will for the Palestinians though. The utter vulgarity and behavior of the people, this was no peace march!

…sure 80% of the people weren’t that extreme, but they allowed these people to feel welcome. I would have expected no worse from the KKK. My God! What if the Republican’s had organized such a showing! These very same so-called peaceniks would march, cry “racism”, “fascist pigs”, and wave signs of President Bush dressed up as a Nazi looking like Hitler. Wait a minute! They were already doing that! Hey geniuses, I bet you find that clever Hitler sign real handy. An all-purpose George Bush morphed into Hitler sign. KISS MY ASS! Do you know what that does to me? I lost family to that fascist bastard. My wife’s whole family was literally wiped off this planet by that bastard! We lost family in the WTC and we lost friends in the Pentagon, and you demean all them with such thoughtless trivialization. GO TO HELL all of you! All of a sudden the no blood for oil slogan I had accepted at earlier times began to take on new meaning. HORSESHIT! And the speeches! They had the same effect as the shrill music of a freaky horror flick, it just intensified the horror. I had to leave, and we left!

…I later mentioned this (the content of some of the signs and some peoples behavior) to one of my friends who had attended, though not with us, and he said, “OH REALLY, I DIDN’T REALLY NOTICE MUCH OF THAT, BESIDES THAT WOULD BE JUST MINORITY ELEMENT ANYWAY!” What! My God! How could one not much notice! A minority element? Worse, how could one not care? We are not talking about a little trash here. We are talking about deadly poison! I WAS THERE GODDAMMIT! Where is our party soul? Where is it? ANYBODY! I have truly hit bottom.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael many mainstream Democrats were there and felt this was a price to bear and alliance to be made to achieve a political ends. I will never forgive them for this. You can read the dismissal by my friend in the last paragraph. Maybe I hold them more accountable than you, but then again maybe I have witnessed this cycle one or two more times than you have, which leads me to this…

I was a small child when Nixon pulled out, and I have no personal memory of it.

As far as the phrase “Nixon pulling out”, let’s get one thing straight I hate Richard Nixon and feel his reputation is well deserved, but I wish this part of history was properly labeled for what it was, The Democratic Undermining of the Vietnam War, because that is what really happened. What was done then would have been equivalent to rejecting the 87 billion package for Iraq, while at the same time submitting fully to unnecessary debilitating rules of engagement by “multilateralists” like the U.N. tying are hands while protecting the guilty of exposure for the complicit fools they were. The Democrats are repeating this crap again! This is why I will not vote for my Democratic Congressman as well.

The Democratic Party is not serious about the times we live in. If the Democratic Party took the War seriously they would stop trying to trip this President up, finger point, and force failure as well as make sure the war is de-funded. I heard John Moore (useful fools) say once that Goldwater would have had the Vietnamese defeated or resolved by 1966. I am starting to wonder. Now that may sound cavalier to some but he probably would have been more willing to prosecute the War differently.

One thing I am starting to believe more and more is that Iraq would be a Vietnam with the Democrats. An Iraq without the 87 billion would be Vietnam. A War seen through the lens of Vietnam would become a Vietnam. The liberal-left is sick and the complicit bed-sharing with leftists like Answer types requires accountability, accountability the left has never been willing to hold itself to. I call them to account for these things, however I don’t hold much hope that they will.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 07:16 AM

This is a bit OT,but my e-mail account provider is currently missing in action.

Have you (Michael,principally,but anyone) read George Packer's article A DEMOCRATIC WORLD in the New Yorker?It's online here.

I'll say right out that I don't know who George Packer is,and I don't read New Yorker - ever - but this is the best piece on WOT and the Democrats' struggle with foreign policy that I've found anywhere.

Read the whole thing.

Posted by: Jussi Hämäläinen at February 16, 2004 07:28 AM

What HA said. If Kerry is testifying before Congress, the responsibility is on him to present accurate and verifiable information. Kerry failed that test by unquestioningly relaying bogus information from the Winter Soldier 'Investigation'. And then Kerry wrote a book, liberally citing many of those discredited stories.

From Mac Owens:

In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie. It was inspired by Mark Lane's 1970 book entitled Conversations with Americans, which claimed to recount atrocity stories by Vietnam veterans. This book was panned by James Reston Jr. and Neil Sheehan, not exactly known as supporters of the Vietnam War. Sheehan in particular demonstrated that many of Lane's "eye witnesses" either had never served in Vietnam or had not done so in the capacity they claimed. Nonetheless, Sen. Mark Hatfield inserted the transcript of the Winter Soldier testimonies into the Congressional Record and asked the Commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the war crimes allegedly committed by Marines. When the Naval Investigative Service attempted to interview the so-called witnesses, most refused to cooperate, even after assurances that they would not be questioned about atrocities they may have committed personally. Those that did cooperate never provided details of actual crimes to investigators. The NIS also discovered that some of the most grisly testimony was given by fake witnesses who had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans. Guenter Lewy tells the entire study in his book, America in Vietnam.
Posted by: Bird Dog at February 16, 2004 08:14 AM

Alene Berk,
150 highly decorated Vietnam vets testify to DAILY atrocities perpetrated with knowledge and acquiescence at the highest levels--and not a single page of any major newspaper devoted to it? It strains credulity...

Michael,

I want to agree with your main points--we seem fairly compatible intellectually and age-wise. But I just can't. While no one is standing at airports greeting returning soldiers from Iraq with "baby-killer" insults, the left in this country and abroad is keeping up a steady drumbeat of "babies are being murdered by our soldiers" in their media. That they are careful not to personalize it these days is a matter of style not substance.

I don't know any Democrats who served in the military and I don't know anyone who has served who is a Democrat. That, in a nutshell, is why the Democratic leaders touting Kerry for his war service come off as hypocrites. That plus everything Kerry said about the military for the near two decades between his return from Vietnam and Sept. 11, 2001.

Finally, let me say (and I'm a friggin historian by training) that none of this is much more relevant to under-40 voters (unfortunately, pracitically an oxymoron) than which side your ancestors fought on in the Civil War. File it under the "nice to know, but what's it got to do with my problems today?" category.

I feel myself sinking into the same boggy morass in which I grew up--the endless and pointless bickering and self-absorption of the baby-boomers with Vietnam is a nail in this country's coffin. ENOUGH ALREADY!! The more I hear about this the more I feel myself sliding inexorably toward pulling the lever for Bush.

Posted by: Kelli at February 16, 2004 08:25 AM

Jussi,

I read the whole article. I agree with about 75% of the article. I believe the article fails to hold Kerry and Edwards accountable for their positions. It also blames the Bush Administration for deficiency’s that are more caused by an unserious Democratic Party than by Bush. Why do I say this? Because no Party has all the answers and the Democrats decided to forfeit their right of influence. Had Joe Biden garnered the support from the Democrat’s, that would have been the difference in buffering for those deficiencies. The Republicans were ready to sign on the compromise, the Democrats weren’t. The Democrats chose to collectively sideline themselves as if to be able to blame Bush for everything, that being the case they deserve more blame and deserve little credit either. I can’t forgive them for this. Bush had the guts to move, and shows the guts to adjust. The Democrats can either continue to carp and show hostility towards this President, submitting him to “friendly fire”, or they can take their back-stabbing knife out of their hands and endeavor to act like people willing to help him win, and blend their ideas into his plans.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 08:35 AM

Kelli, I agree enough is enough and can't believe we're sinking into this morass of Vietnam again. The Dems strategy up to this point is hopeless - it is sad they can't grasp onto something more positive than handing the U.N. a blank check. Other than the Iraq issue, their main calling has become to "protect American jobs". Who is responsible for this backward slide? Get that arm in shape by November.

Posted by: d-rod at February 16, 2004 09:27 AM

Judith: I can't believe you see Kerry's current praise and affection for the "band of brothers" as anything other than what it transparently is -- political convenience.

You're right. But someone once pointed out that hypocrisy is the first sign of progress. Kerry isn't exactly being hypocritical, he's using his war service as cover for a weak foreign policy. But the fact that he and the Democrats want to do this in the first place shows that they aren't comfortable as the dove party. This is the first step to no longer being the dove party.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 16, 2004 09:56 AM

Randy,

It's true that realpolitik isn't completely finished everywhere. That's because we still have to engage the world as it is to some extent. It will always be this way. What's changed is that realpolitik is seen as something we'd rather not do unless we have no choice. We can't very well become openly hostile to every last dictator at the same time. We have to pick our battles.

Besides, our foreign policy seems to be damned by you no matter what we do lately. If we appease dictators, you oppose it. And if we challenge dictators you oppose that.

What do you think we should do with the brutes who run the 'stans? I assume you don't want to invade them. Do you want sanctions? Diplomatic isolation? I can see how even that would go down in Europe. More "simplistic cowboy" obnoxiousness from the Americans, blah blah blah.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 16, 2004 09:57 AM

MJT,

We can't very well become openly hostile to every last dictator at the same time. We have to pick our battles.

Very true.

Besides, our foreign policy seems to be damned by you no matter what we do lately.

All the left is about anymore. Bicker, complain, lay blame. Bush is like that quarterback that is leading a tough hard fought game towards victory while being ridiculed for the 1 interception he threw. This is even though he has thrown 3 touchdown passes, and suffered hurried passes and knockdowns while those who complain and blame are partially responsible for refusing to help block up front.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 10:21 AM

To Samuel:I didn't mean to say that I endorsed all of the Packer's article.I agree that the Democrats' absence from debate is a major failing on their part,and that the Bush administration has had to perform under exceedingly difficult domestic circumstances.

I thought Packer was best at analysing what aspects the WOT has so far lacked,and what Liberals should do to contribute to winning the war.

I think the major shortcoming on the part of US strategy is the lack of effort on ideological front.The Bush administration has mostly framed the WOT in technical terms;first,it was about terrorism;second,when the war went to Iraq,about WMD.Even if Saddam's Iraq had been teeming with NBC weapons and al-Qaeda bigwigs,such goals can not be expected to sustain the decades-long effort ahead.

This is primarily an ideological war,and can not be won for as long as the conditions that feed Radical Islamism exist.

Posted by: Jussi Hämäläinen at February 16, 2004 11:18 AM

Jussi,

Fair enough we are in basic agreement. I do think Bush would oblige the left in that role however, a shame they didn't take it.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 11:31 AM

Michael,

The rank and file think it's good that Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam. That's progress, and that's my point.

Via Oxblog, Chait, Saletan, Kaus, and Scheiber all argue that the Democratic primary voters aren't voting for him because they agree with him. Rather, he is the candidate they think that other voters is most likely to vote for in November.

If these pundits are right, rank and file Democrats don't think it in itself was a good thing that Kerry was a soldier in Vietnam. Rather, they think other voters will think it was a good thing.

Does this distinction matter? I think so; it underscores the D's indifference when it comes to national security.

Posted by: Fredrik Nyman at February 16, 2004 12:43 PM

Besides, our foreign policy seems to be damned by you no matter what we do lately. If we appease dictators, you oppose it. And if we challenge dictators you oppose that.

Michael, you're oversimplifying. I haven't opposed the challenging of all dictators. I certainly didn't oppose challenging Charles Taylor in Liberia. I wouldn't oppose the challenging of Castro and Chávez by this administration, provided that it's done on a multilateral basis for the simple reason that the issue of their rule becomes secondary to their efforts to paint it as the US picking on them, given our interventionist history in this hemisphere. I certainly didn't oppose challenging Milosevic as it's best to stop a humanitarian crisis when it's actually happening.

What bothers me is the doubletalk and inconsistency. This administration takes Saddam to task for human rights abuses, but embraces Aliyev and Kerimov and ignores their abuses. What does that make us look like to those parties whose attitudes we are tryting to change: a force of good in the world or rank opportunists?

In fairness to Bush, this a problem for both parties. LBJ had no problems supporting a coup in Brazil that led to 21 years of often brutal military dictatorship, the institutionalization of torture and pharaonic projects that bankrupted the country. Nixon and Kissinger never saw a right-wing dictator they didn't like. Carter said that the Shah of Iran's rule was "stable and progressive" a year before the revolution. Reagan never met an anticommunist he didn't like, no matter how brutal. Clinton was cowardly on Rwanda.

I have no problem with engaging dictatorships in dialogue, but I do have a problem with the high-handedness of condemning Saddam's brutality and downplaying Aliyev's and Kerimov's because they are politically expedient. Much of the policy seems to be carrot for the ones we either like or can make use of and stick for the ones we don't.

I happen to love my country and want it to be a consistent and fair player on this issue. If Steyn thinks "we abandoned our long-cherished theories of realpolitik" after September 11, then he's full of crap as my two examples clearly indicate.

Posted by: Randy Paul at February 16, 2004 03:02 PM

What bothers me is the doubletalk and inconsistency. This administration takes Saddam to task for human rights abuses, but embraces Aliyev and Kerimov and ignores their abuses…In fairness to Bush, this a problem for both parties.

Nice try, don't try to equate by saying both are guilty and then throw LBJ in the same breath as G.W. Bush, quite frankly that is perverse. Both parties are guilty of many things. But when I hear analogies that draw false choices for the sake of making prejudicial points my "irrelevance" radar goes off. We can’t push on all fronts at once, this is used as an excuse to criticize. We were allies to Stalin during World War II for God’s sake, maybe FDR is a better analogy for the less prejudiced minded.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 03:38 PM

Randy,

Thanks for clarifying.

But surely you notice that realpolitik has been abandoned some of the time. No, not all the time. I doubt it's reasonably possible to scrap realpolitik completely, although I do wish we could. What's changed is that, at least for the neocons, realpolitik is no longer the default position. Instead, the default position is to undermine dictatorships whenever, wherever, and however we can.

The neocons get slammed on a regular basis for fomenting chaos and instability in the Middle East. Whatever you think of their strategy, it certainly isn't realpolitik.

No, we aren't doing that in Uzbekistan. If you think we should, there's an interesting argument to be made for it. I'd be willing to hear it, but you'll have to take into account that Kerimov helped us overthrow the Taliban. Afghanistan isn't an island we could invade and occcupy without assistance from the neighbors.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 16, 2004 03:40 PM

MJT,

Neocons have to apply their strategy within the bounds of reality, not their idealistic reaches of perfection. If that is your point I agree. My above analogy to FDR still applies. Neocons love FDR anyway.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 03:47 PM

What bothers me is the doubletalk and inconsistency.

I wasn't aware of any U.N. resolutions authorizing "severe consequences" regarding Aliyev and Kerimov.

Posted by: d-rod at February 16, 2004 03:58 PM

Samuel,

It's one thing to hear Don Rumsfeld in high dudgeon at a NATO meeting about Saddam's human rights abuses. The incosistency jumps right out when commenting about Aliyev, he says "The United States has a relationship with this country. We value it."

If the president says ""Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe. In the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty," he'd better be prepared to be consistent or, if not, then he'd better be prepared to have his credibility questioned. That's certainly not unreasonable.

Posted by: Randy Paul at February 16, 2004 03:59 PM

D-Rod,

Oh please! If you make the argument that the Iraq war was a "war of liberation" and base it and you turn around and ignore the human rights abuses of the Aliyevs and Kerimovs of the world because it's politically expedient for you to do so, you look like a hypocrite.

Posted by: Randy Paul at February 16, 2004 04:09 PM

I suppose we'll just have to look like hypocrites no matter what is done or not done. Are you saying Saddam was not in material breach of U.N. 1441 nor in violation of other terms of his 1991 ceasefire agreement. The regime change was justified based on human rights grounds alone, however, there are other significant reasons as well.

Posted by: d-rod at February 16, 2004 04:20 PM

Well, Dave, I hope you're prepared to have the past become prologue again.

As for me, I'll reserve my right to be skeptical.

Posted by: Randy Paul at February 16, 2004 04:26 PM

So nothing significant occurred since 1983 as far as you are concerned?

Posted by: d-rod at February 16, 2004 04:45 PM

Randy: If you make the argument that the Iraq war was a "war of liberation" and base it and you turn around and ignore the human rights abuses of the Aliyevs and Kerimovs of the world because it's politically expedient for you to do so, you look like a hypocrite.

I'm sorry, Randy, but this is just unreal. We can't overthrow sixty dictators at the same time, and you know it. What do you think we should do about Uzbekistan? It's so easy to snipe from the sidelines, much harder to develop a foreign policy in the real world that's based on something more than posturing and that produces actual results.

Besides, the last thing we need it a cookie-cutter foreign policy. I suppose it would be "consistent," but it wouldn't have much of anything else going for it.

Why is foreign policy consistency supposedly a virtue, anyway? We're talking about war here, not math. I can't think of a single foreign policy intellectual, from the ancient world to the modern, who thought consistency was even remotely applicable to this subject.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 16, 2004 04:54 PM

Randy I'm a Clinton-Gore voter albeit an ex-Democrat now, and do believe you speak with great prejudice and MJT added greatly to the point, your points aren’t winning me back.

The incosistency jumps right out when commenting about Aliyev, he says "The United States has a relationship with this country. We value it."

Randy I’m sure you’re disgusted with FDR calling Stalin “Uncle Joe” as well. Put the world in context with the realities of what we are doing. If you are implying do all or nothing, that isn’t serious. If you say we should be antagonizing more nations than Iran, Syria, and North Korea I don’t agree. If you expect the President to take counsel from your suggestions don’t hold your breath. Maybe he (Bush) is hoping for different types of successes and has means beyond your or my capability of comprehending, I don’t know.

I second guessed this president right up until the successes of the Iraqi War. I have chosen to give benefit of doubt to this President when I don’t have all the facts. Did you see Libya packing it in as a result of this administrations policies? What else don’t you and I see? Predictions with the rest of the left like myself of disaster way beyond what will obviously ever be laid upon us. Vietnam, Vietnam, Vietnam, and then when it isn’t we act like spoiled kids who say we should have done more. Why should we think people should take these goalpost moving people’s criticism serious? I feel having predicted such dire outcomes of evasion the lefts right to critique should be mostly constructive, if not they should shut the hell up, or risk being banned by the Jacksonian minded public, into the political wilderness, I predict the third will happen. To “carp” about on going problems simply because this President had the balls to do what in retrospect everyone claims Gore or anyone else not only would have done, but would have done better, just isn’t serious.

If the president says ""Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe. In the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty," he'd better be prepared to be consistent or, if not, then he'd better be prepared to have his credibility questioned. That's certainly not unreasonable.

He is being consistent and applying common sense as he sees it. Your common sense says otherwise, my advice is vote Kerry, I’ve learned my lesson. You’re like my brother. He’d have the Redskins winning every game because he knows strategy better than the professionals, hell I can’t wait to see him criticize the great returning Joe Gibbs, criticizing the inconsistent game plans and stupid adjustments made at halftime. I don’t elevate his seriousness in my mind either. He thinks he’s serious as well. Your questioning is out of context and certainly unreasonable just like Joe Gibbs will win his way I have a feeling this President will do fine without your advice. Keep watching for Bush’s downfall however, it will keep you busy for a while, about 5 more years in fact, don't say you aren't I used to have your mindset. Your dark cousel gives you away.

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 06:39 PM

The humanitarian reasons made the invasion of Iraq permissible. For the same reason, we are permitted to conduct regime change in the 'stans. It doesn't rise to the level of duty, however. It didn't in the case of Iraq, either, but we took the Iraq option because it was in our interest. We have no duty to take the 'stan option. There is no inconsistency. Don't confuse permissibility with duty.

Posted by: Jim at February 16, 2004 08:22 PM

Who said all NeoCons love FDR?!

Maybe on foreign policy (if you can overlook coddling up to Uncle Joe and the disaster that was the Yalta Conference's selling of half of Europe into slavery) but beyond that I find it hard to believe. FDR built the Welfare State, for Gods sake!...the embodiment of everything you people love to hate about modern society (the dependency, the entitlements, the "creeping socialism"). You folks are overlooking a whole hell of alot.

I'm at a loss, here.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 16, 2004 08:54 PM

I do not know or care what Kerry said about what,
he changes it frequently anway.

I can tell you this, I watched the Vietnam war
through the eyes of American television. I saw
the ranting, the screaming, the belittling the
vets. I saw Fonda telling the world how terrible
it was that America was in a war started by
J.F Kennedy, not Nixon as Kerry keeps telling the
people he is trusting not to know. Dirty Nixon
sounds so much better than JFKennedy does it not?
Watch for this.

When, finally the vets got the monument for them
selves by themselves for the most part, I cried
for them having to fight for a feeling of honor.

Don't try and tell someone my age about how it
was, it was something I pray does not happen
again to the Iraqi troops, but am getting to
the point where I can see it happening. Not
the names, the spitting on, but the dems will take
away any real pride on their work done if they do
not let America finish the job. The lives lost
will be for nothing because the U.N. is, well,
what can a person say about that? Any thinking
person would never, ever turn Iraq over to the
mercy of the U.N. and the middle east leaders.
The Iraqi people will be let down by the
Americans yet, AGAIN.

Open your eyes, really go back in history and
find out for yourselves, you are arguing about
something you do not know about and should!
The truth, not the pap I am seeing here.
Did they really do this? Yes, they did.

Americans treated the vets like dirt, not all
Americans, but enough to hurt the vets badly and
show what America is like when it loses. That is
exactly what it looked like, and you can try
and change it, but it is real and you cannot.

Where do you suppose the people got the idea the
vets should be ignored and treated badly? Out of
the air? Yes, the hot air from people who stood
there telling the world how terrible they were.

I look at Kerry with disgust, I saw the likes of
him turning on the people who he was "a band of
brothers with" The short time ge was there in comparison with many, many soldiers in Vietnam, who gave yearS of their lives and came home to
a country (a world) who had been convinced they
were not heros. They were!

Kiss him ring, but you will be very sorry. The
man is a puppet of the dems and they only want
to get rid of the president. Nothing else.

Carole

Posted by: Carole at February 16, 2004 09:28 PM

"I look at Kerry with disgust, I saw the likes of
him turning on the people who he was "a band of
brothers with"

Disgust is too tame a word. I am a little tired of hearing about what happened 30 years ago, Its the shredding of documentary evidence of POWs left behind after the War, his intensive lobbying on behalf of the North Vietnamese and his cousins Billion Dollar contract with them that fogs my vision with a red haze.

It is through that haze that I see, what comes to my mind, when I think of Vietnam, its helicopters taking off from Saigon for the last time, with desparate people trying cling on to them.

The following is an English translation of GRU archives of a Russian translation of a Vietnamese Politburo meeting.

The Quang 1205 Document

GENERAL STAFF OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR
MAIN INTELLIGENCE DIRECTORATE [GRU The pace of the plan must be increased. We have to quickly move these people from North to South Vietnam in order to destroy a large quantity of enemy personnel. In other words. the elimination of all traitors. reactionaries. and counter- revolutionaries who currently make up a fairly significant part in South Vietnam is an important mission of the "Ba Be" plan.

There's quite a bit more I suggest reading it.

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at February 16, 2004 09:53 PM

Who said all NeoCons love FDR?!

I did! As well as the “God Father” himself, Irving Kristol.

Maybe on foreign policy...FDR built the Welfare State, for Gods sake!...the embodiment of everything you people love to hate about modern society (the dependency, the entitlements, the "creeping socialism"). You folks are overlooking a whole hell of alot.

Grant, the most perfect president for neo-cons never was. We overlook nothing and I believe are the most history minded of any group. By today’s standards Abraham Lincoln would be a racist. We weigh things for the times people live in. If a collective vote were taken, I suppose Reagan would be it the best “neo-con” If Bush follows through he will equal him. Reagan winning on the neo-liberal side and Bush II winning on the foreign policy side. We hate the welfare state because it stifles freedom. Neo-conservatism is quite Jacksonian and flexible actually, because it is first and foremost about freedom more than specific ideology.

FDR is popular because most neo-cons like me Grant either are Jewish Liberal Ex-Marxist types or have parents who were such. This background of transition from socialism to capitalism was made easier down the path he created. The main appreciation was Roosevelt’s was projecting American power into the world, or as you say foreign policy. Of course we were all Democrats up until the 70’s anyway. The Republican’s and Milton Freedman neo-liberal supply-side economics was pretty much solidified and etched into that doctrine by the 70’s. Reagan sealed that deal for all of us, especially on the neo-liberal side, including Clinton and the New Democrat’s, ones that consider themselves neo-liberals. The “mugged by reality” is simply a realization that conservative social and fiscal policies tend to serve their Wilsonian aims better. We are moralists and find it easier to appeal to a social conservative than a selfish lefty. I learned this through my daughter as I was going through my transformation. The religious kids were the ones most supportive of the War and not just for War-mongering reasons. The rudderless kids with little sense of responsibility and the amoral were not.

TR and FDR are popular more for Foreign Policy reasons. The merging of neoliberalism is more recent. The one thing that neo-liberals realized that made the Democrats lose them was Patriotism. The left acts ashamed of America, that neo-conservatives can’t stand this and as said before as moralists find social-conservatives ok. Ideologically Reagan is by far the perfect fit. Ex-liberal War Democrat against isolationism, and pro-America and free trade, he was everything.

Grant read this it is only two pages and is written by the “God Father” of neo-liberalism himself Irving Kristol.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/000tzmlw.asp?pg=1

Posted by: Samuel at February 16, 2004 10:22 PM

Rather, he is the candidate they think that other voters is most likely to vote for in November.

In the financial markets, this is exactly the psychology that creates bubbles. The only question with a bubble market is when it will pop. The Dems are hoping Kerry's doesn't pop before November; I personally wouldn't take that bet.

Remember, the only reason Kerry is even still in the race now is because he wrote himself a check for $6.5 million in December. In politics, fundraising is a proxy for committed support. Kerry has no-one who believes in him; rather, he has the temporary support of a bunch of people who care only about regaining power, and see him as their best bet. That is a very weak reed to build a Presidential campaign on, and an even weaker one to build a Presidency on.

Posted by: R C Dean at February 17, 2004 05:32 AM

Vietnam Syndrome? A canard, me thinks. Post-Vietnam, Jimmy Carter responds forcefully to USSR for attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan. After Reagan's election, we intervene in Grenada and Central America, and put Pershing missles in Germany. Bush 41 intervenes in Panama, Kuwait, Somalia. Clinton intervenes in Balkans. Just where is the aversion to use of force far away from US soil coming from? Democrats? In the eighties, yes, but in the nineties, no. In any case, the Presidency has continually been held by a man NOT averse to use of force, while the opposition party has tended to represent the views of American citizens exercising their democratic right to question our using force overseas when NOT directly attacked.

Posted by: Markus rose at February 17, 2004 08:34 AM

I guess a perception of victory can inspire one to abandon "lukewarm pacifism." But this doesn't look like the aftermath of victory:

"The utterly disturbing situation is characterized by wide-spread crime and terror, chaos and lawlessness, genocide and ethnic cleansing of Serbian and other non-Albanian population, destruction of their private property, looting and usurpation of the property of the State and of private firms, carried out by armed Albanian extremists, members of the terrorist so-called KLA in particular."

Was there really a victory, or has the state of Serbia improved from worse to bad? It sure doesn't say much for the UN peacekeeping forces who are supposed to be stabilizing that region. Then again, since when have such forces been successful?

I don't think the specter of Vietnam will truly be gone until we can find a war that both the Right and Left will support. There has been no such war as of yet.

Posted by: Alan K. Henderson at February 17, 2004 11:37 AM

Alan: I guess a perception of victory can inspire one to abandon "lukewarm pacifism."

It wasn't any perception of victory that made me stop being a pacifist. I stopped being a pacifist because I wanted a military intervention long before we ever got one. You could say I became a left-wing warmonger who was frustrated it took Clinton so long to take care of Slobo while the UN did little more than appease the bastard. When Clinton intervened, I said finally!

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 17, 2004 12:01 PM

Markus,

Just one correction. The Taliban wasn't in power in Afganistan during the war with Russia.

Posted by: iagofest at February 17, 2004 01:15 PM

Samuel...

Whoh, there buddy. You came at me in that last post as if I was attacking FDR. I'm wholly entirely NOT doing that. I love FDR. If you nitpick the guy from the left AND the right, he wasn't perfect, but he was damn close. Probably the greatest President ever lived...probably. I'd have to think about it.

So, you like FDR too. Great! More power to you.

Alas, you and I, the "neo" standard bearers, agree on something. It's about time. :)

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 17, 2004 03:32 PM

PS (for Samuel)...

If you want to agree with me on another point, I suggest you go and read my "Happy Valentine's Day" post in response to Anne.elk.

The one about leftist relativism and me hoping FDR rises from the grave to smack some sense into her.

You could probably appreciate something like that.

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I could never get on board for Dresden-style terror bombing, especially if it's for the purpose of the removal of one guy. The only exception I make is when it represents the literal lesser of three evils as in Hiroshima/Nagasaki; the other two options were the "Saddam option," named for Bush 41's decision to leave the murderous Iraqi regime intact, and the invasion option, which prolongs the war and gives Stalin enough time to mobilize and bring Hokkaido behind the Iron Curtain. (That scenario will never repeat itself, since it requires that only one nation posess WMDs.)

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