I don't know. This stuff shouldn't count for a lot maybe, but both were adults, not children.

In this particular case, W has admitted to living a non-exemplary life prior to 40, and if Kerry were to say his remarks were the result of inexperience, then I think that should be dropped too.

both were adults, not children.

True. Though I've said and done some pretty stupid things as an adult that I'll never repeat again...

Though I've said and done some pretty stupid things as an adult that I'll never repeat again...

meekly me too.

An Open Letter from Michael Moore to George "I'm a War President!" Bush

....But your "desertion" didn't go away -- and here's the reason why. You have sent countless numbers of our sons and daughters in the National Guard to their deaths in the last 11 months. You did this while misleading their parents and the nation with bogus lies about weapons of mass destruction and scary phony Saddam ties to al Qaeda. You sent them off to a never-ending war so that your benefactors at Halliburton and the oil companies could line their pockets. And then you had the audacity to prance around in a soldier's uniform on an aircraft carrier proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" -- while the cameras from your re-election campaign ad agency rolled.

THAT is what makes this whole business of your being AWOL so despicable, and makes the grief-stricken relatives want to turn away from you in disgust. The reason your skipping-out on your enlistment didn't matter in the 2000 election was because we were not at war. Being stuck in a deadly, daily quagmire now in 2004 makes your military history-fiction and your fly-boy costume VERY relevant....

If Bush did skip some of his service requirements (that is IF, I'm not sure if he did) it speaks to character.

Kerry's opinion back then was so wrong and so stupid, but what sixty year old person hasn't said political/policy things they later regret.

Anne.elk,

You are as likely to make a good point by quoting Michael Moore as Rush Limbaugh is by quoting Ann Coulter. Surely you can find a more serious analysis than that.

Yes Michael, I know how much you want to dismiss the content of what Michael Moore says, but in this case especially, isn't it true that if Moore hadn't brought the issue up once again last month, that you wouldn't be blogging this blog this night?

I'm sorry, Anne, but Moore's post is too stupid on too many levels to bother responding to in the comments section. I have better things to do with my time, and more interesting arguments to consider. Maybe if I feel like shooting fish in a barrel I'll fisk it on the main page. No promises.

Kerry's youthful views would be irrelevant except for one small incovenience. He has spent his legislative career trying to fulfill them. He and his comrades succeeded in gutting our intelligence services and tried to gut our military. He voted against almost all of the weapons systems that make our military so formidable. If Kerry had his way, the US military would still be equipped with Vietnam era systems. Maybe he's just a sentimentalist.

Even if we apply the old rule of "a broken clock is wrong twice a day" to Michael Moore's comments, it is still pretty easy to dismiss what he says. "Countless numbers of our sons and daughters", "misleading their parents and the nation", "bogus lies about weapons of mass destruction" are nothing more than hyperbole. His appearance matches his intellect; sloppy and unkempt.

Like any of us, evalutating the whole person - in order to predict future behavior - by examining a moment in time (an action, an event, a year) is not fair, and probably a bad, ineffective strategy to boot. What John Kerry said in 1970 is only relevant when considered in the context of that time and of his entire public career. Likewise GWB and his National Guard service.

Look at yourself. Are the things you did at 18, 20, 23 instructive as to who you are and what you do today? Are the things that motivated and animated you now and then the same?

And maybe he wanted to butcher blacks in 1972. No big whoop.

In my opinion, neither Kerry's statement nor Bush's questionable service record (assuming for the purposes of this discussion that it is indeed questionable) is very relevant today. I shudder at some of the beliefs I held just five years ago, and with Kerry and Bush we're talking about the early 1970s. No, I wouldn't say Kerry's statements and Bush's military record are entirely irrelevant, but their probative value is minimal.

As for the exchange between Michael T. and anne.elk, in an ideal world every argument -- even the most outlandish -- would be met with a counterargument. But in the real world people have limited time and responding to unserious arguments isn't a good use of one's time because that time could have been devoted to addressing other more serious arguments. True, it does open one up to the charge that "You were afraid to respond to [his/her] arguments, weren't you?", or words to that effect (in this case, anne.elk saying to Michael T., "I know how much you want to dismiss the content of what Michael Moore says"), but I suppose that's an unavoidable cost.

Okay, I guess I'll throw in as well...

As for Kerry, besides being a 30 year old quote, the onle real fault I can see is that he put a lot of faith in the UN. It sure would be nice to see the UN work like it's supposed to, but oh well... That's not so much saying I agree as saying that I think I see where he is coming from.

As for Bush, I've heard that he went AWOL for a year, and now it's more like 5 days. No matter how you slice it, AWOL is a tad more serious than eating paste. If he went AWOL for a year (as implied by others) then he shouldn't even be allowed to vote, let alone run for president. If it was 5 days then, assuming the military delt with it and he earned his honorable discharge, then it's in the past and I don't need to hear about it.

..In other late breaking news.. J. Edgar Hoover reportedly was a crossdresser.

From Page 144 of Colin Powell's autobiography, My American Journey:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

How times change. This was published in 1996.

Um, is Kerry now lying about saying it, and trying to keep records of what he said private?

As long as Bush is bringing the "I'm a WAR President" thing into the campaign, what he did in the sixties during a war is going to be a legit target of the other side.

Much like what Secretary Powell said to that Ohio Congressman yesterday, None of you clowns commenting on the President's service in ANG have any idea what you are talking about.

You never served. You never will serve, you didn't even think about serving. You know nothing about how the military works, how the National Guard works, or any of it.

That vile creatures like Michael Moore and his adherents like Anne.elk will continue to blather on about this, does nothing but continually demonstrate their ignorance and imbecility.

I, too, am an internationalist. The war in Iraq was a celebration of internationalist values, which was why I was largely supportive of it. Several countries stood up for the principle that human rights and universal values were more important than the dubious principle that national sovereignty is inviolable.

Bush was also a borderline alcoholic in his youth--a condition which he's admitted to and reformed from. Is this relevant to his being president? Does it affect in any way at all how he governs?

Regarding Bush's national guard days, and Kerry's fake medals escapade, does it make any difference on how they would govern today.

Why not rather look at their record of public service? What Bush did as a fratboy doesn't concern me, and Kerry's hippie days in the 70s even less. But what about their record in the 90s? Isn't that more relevant?

Eric is right, I never served in our armed forces. I got out of school as one war ended.... Was married with young kids when 9/11 happened. Actually I've spent the better part (more than ten years) of my career working on a daily basis with members of the Armed Forces building shipboard defense systems, aircraft trainers, and army weapons systems. Other than that I do admit to vast ignorance of what being in the armed forces amounts to.

And seriously, who would bother quoting Michael Moore to anybody but the choir? Nobody takes him seriously--and worse, we pretty much think he's a lying, distorting clown--outside his narrow circle of fawning Leftist zombies.

Randy,

Did you beat up on Bill Clinton for not going to Vietnam? I didn't. Not for one second.

These attacks are so transparently partisan.

No,

I haven't beaten up on Bush either. I think that the quote is relevant, however, considering it comes from the president's secretary of state.

Markus Rose: The war in Iraq was a celebration of internationalist values.... Several countries stood up for the principle that human rights and universal values were more important than the dubious principle that national sovereignty is inviolable.

Well said. Sign me up as a Markus-Rose-type internationalist, along with Bush.

I'd say that every presidential candidate in American history has done or said something stupid in their past, probably several things. The only reason we see more of it now is that record keeping is better and we have video cameras to record any drunken binges we might go on. The fact that a candidate might have something stupid in their past doesn't bother me that much. (Note, thats stupid activities, not illegal ones)

The prospect of getting a candidate who's spent their entire life censoring everything they say and do because they are worried about how it might look when they run for President, that worries me.

Markus Rose and Jim:

Terrific! Let's all throw our support behind the International Criminal Court!

OK, I'll come clean...I ate fuzzballs off the carpet when I was in kindergarten...

Make of that what you will...

Markus from another thread:

You seem to think there is no problem in the world that force cannot solve. Americans in Iraq today are learning the bloody foolishness of such a view.

Markus from this thread:

The war in Iraq was a celebration of internationalist values, which was why I was largely supportive of it.

Putting your points together it would seem that you have learned the bloody foolishness of celebrating international values.

dubious principle that national sovereignty is inviolable.

Is American sovereignty a dubious principle to you?

MMMMMMMMMM! Paste!

"Did you beat up on Bill Clinton for not going to Vietnam? I didn't. Not for one second."

What if Clinton had diverted an aircraft carrier so that he could fly in a military jet and be photographed in a flight suit. Would the hypocrisy of avoiding military service and then donning the garb of a warrior as a PR stunt possibly be meriting some discussion?

I agree, his thinking hasn't changed. His record supports it and his statement he'd check w/the UN first before we did anything.

HA --

"Markus from another thread:

You seem to think there is no problem in the world that force cannot solve. Americans in Iraq today are learning the bloody foolishness of such a view.

Markus from this thread:

The war in Iraq was a celebration of internationalist values, which was why I was largely supportive of it."

HA, I stand by both of those comments. Force is sometimes neccessary. Even if it is not neccessary, it may have some positive outcomes.

"Is American sovereignty a dubious principle to you?"

Yes, I indeed am highly dubious of the principle that American sovereignity is more important than furthering universal human values. Unlike you, HA, I'm not a moral relativist. I believe in right and wrong, as opposed to "my country, right or wrong."

"Universal human values"- Just where do I find that country on a map?

Try living in the real world.

Markus,

If you're equating America with all these other terrorist/human rights depraving governments, then you certainly are a moral relativist.

Ed,

Markus isn't comparing America to Iraq or any other such place. Perhaps you aren't clear on his point, but I've been reading his comments for too long to think that's what he's getting at.

Ed -- i never said anything about "equating" America with anything. Each country should be measured and judged dispassionately. When America is right -- thankfully much of the time -- I'm for it. When America is wrong, I'm angry as hell, cause I want my country to live up to its highest ideals.

Is American sovereignty a dubious principle to you?

If America had been taken over by a dictator who fed his citizens into shredders and whose sons routinely raped and murdered women and who attacked its own citizens with chemical weapons and invaded neighboring countries to further its expansion goals, then yes - I'd probably appreciate it if England and Australia and a Coalition of Willing countries came to my aid, militarily, and restored by democratic freedoms.

Would the hypocrisy of avoiding military service and then donning the garb of a warrior as a PR stunt possibly be meriting some discussion?

In case some people have forgotten, the President is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. While still a civilian, he leads the military.

Markus's "internationalist values" are the kind I like: getting a bunch of allies together and doing what we all know is right, even if it runs against the sovereignty of a villainous regime. This is totally different from doing what other countries tell us to do. It doesn't give up one iota of our sovereignty. This is what you mean, right, Markus? That's my kind of internationalist values!

But this is not the UN/Democratic Party kind of internationalist values, according to which we should do what we know is wrong, or refrain from doing what we know is right, in order to comply with other countries' wishes. So, no ICC, thank you. We should know ahead of time what we're going to do with other countries before we agree to do it with them. No one can guarantee that the ICC would not be a kangaroo court, in which we would be sending innocent Americans to their doom, so, no, thank you.

"In case some people have forgotten, the President is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. While still a civilian, he leads the military."

Which has nothing to do with my question.

Markus: Yes, I indeed am highly dubious of the principle that American sovereignity is more important than furthering universal human values.

I agree, if you mean that, should the U.S. become a villainous regime, we should have no objection to the UK, say, coming in here and conducting regime change. When Hitler is in the Oval Office and killing thousands, I say, "Please come kick his ass, Tony Blair."

But I disagree, if you mean that should another country raise objections to our doing what we know is right, we should give weight to their objections. We should not.

Eh, HA?

Markus,

Yes, I indeed am highly dubious of the principle that American sovereignity is more important than furthering universal human values.

Is that a hypothetical dichotomy or do you actually believe that we currently face a trade-off between American sovereignty and universal human values? What other sovereign would you subordinate America to in order to advance your morally absolute view of universal human values? What basis or claim to sovereignty does your proposed sovereign have? Should Americans sacrifice some of our rights so that others might have more? What exactly are you saying?

A sovereign American government is the guarantor of my human rights. Not the UN. Not the ICC. Not Kyoto. This will continue to be the case so long as our government adheres to the principles in the Constitution. If our government should ever fail to adhere to the principles of the Constitution then it would forfeit its claim to sovereignty. The kind of international institutions and accords you "internationalists" want to subordinate our sovereignty to are incompatable with the Constitution. If you "internationalists" gained control of our government and subordinated our sovereignty, then it would then be within my universal human rights to take up arms against the government and restore a legitimate government. Not only would it be my right, it would be my duty. If you take away our sovereignty you take away my human rights.

The Founding Fathers were wise to include the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights. Do you include gun rights among your universal human rights?

Jim,

Eh, HA?

I agree. If our government ever exceeded its Constitutional authority, every citizen would have the right take whatever means necessary in to restore a legitimate government. This would include calling for assistance from Tony Blair. But of course nobody would come to our assistance. It would be up to the citizenry.

No American government has the authority to surrender American sovereignty. No government has the authority to grant coercive power over American citizens to international institutions that don't have the checks, balances, protections and limits of power provided for in the Constitution. No government has the authority to delegate war powers to the UN. All of these acts would be unconstitutional and treasonous.

If Kerry can tout his Vietnam exploits 34 years ago, if Bush-haters can trot out his National Guard experience 30 years ago, then all of Kerry's other post-Vietnam behavior is also in play and subject to scrutiny. Kerry and the Bush-haters are the ones who opened that can of worms.

Jim -- If someone or some other country raises an objection to a policy the USA is carrying out I think we should consider the objection on its merits, and reject it if is found to be lacking. The point is to do what's right for America and the world. Usually they coincide. If they don't, go with the former, but only after deep and serious reflection.

HA -- There is nothing unconstitutional about voters through their elected representatives choosing to enter into or choosing to remain in binding agreements with other nations or international organizations like the UN, the ICC, or the WTO. I'm not sure if you're one of those US out of the UN types, but if you are, you can urge your Congressman to support Rep. Ron Paul's bill to get us out. Currently in the 435 member House, it has 15 supporters.

I'm not sure how far I would go in designating gun rights as a universal human right, although I am suspicious of governments and people that want to take ALL weapons away from law abiding citizens. I do support gun rights in America, with reasonable restrictions, and with mandatory federal registration and training. It has been illegal for private citizens to own fully automatic weapons such as an M-16 since, I think, 1946. That seems to be a reasonable restriction, don't you agree? I also agree with the NRA that we ought to enforce our existing laws more, particularly the assault weapons ban, which is up for reauthorization this year in Congress.

Many on the far right are obsessed with the 2nd Amendment as some sort of a check on the power of an oppressive central government. I think that Iraq under Hussein, where just about every male had a gun, seriously calls that view into question.

In order for your typical right-wing militia to be able to defend our sacred Constitution against some socialistic, globalistic, New World Order, Illuminatist, Free Masonic, flouridized water pushing, black helicopter flying, tenth amendment ignoring, Zionist Occapation Government, it would need to have access to advanced artillery and perhaps even nuclear weapons. I do not believe that the 2nd Amendment supports that, although by the logic of many 2nd Amendment "absolutists", it should.

Markus,

There is nothing unconstitutional about voters through their elected representatives choosing to enter into or choosing to remain in binding agreements with other nations or international organizations

There is if those agreements contain provisions that conflict with Constitutional protections and constraints on government power. Any government that signed such an agreement would effectively violate the provisions for amending the Constitution. That would certainly be unconstitutional. This is the case for both the ICC and Kyoto which is why even Clinton never pushed for their ratification. This would also be true for any government that tried to delegate war powers to the UNSC.

You failed to respond to my questions about your false dichitomy between American sovereignty and human rights. You can't of course. Doing so would reveal that your world view is an illusion. The fact is that American sovereignty has been the single greatest catalyst for advancing human rights in history. And there is no superior sovereign to American national sovereignty. If you won't acknowledge this then you are either a utopian fool or moral fraud. Or both.

In order for your typical right-wing militia to be able to defend our sacred Constitution ... it would need to have access to advanced artillery and perhaps even nuclear weapons.

You are working under the assumption that in such a conflict the US military would oppose militia groups. But what if the military or elements of the military also turned against the government? I'll remind you that the military oath is to support and defend the Constitution, not the government. If the government exceeds its authority then the military would have a duty to restore a legitimate Constitutional government. Imagine what the military might do if Tommy Franks was charged with war crimes at the ICC and President Rose had him turned over for trial.

Michael,

Yes, they're partisan attacks: Partisan attacks a long time coming. Not so many of us attacked Clinton in '92, at least not so viscerally, but that's because it was 1992. 2004 is most definitely not 1992. If it were, John Edwards would be running away with the nomination and coasting to a landslide victory in November.

If Clinton led us into a massive war based largely on faulty intelligence, landed on an aircraft carrier, and described himself as a "War President" out to get the "evildoers", I'd be jumping down Clinton's throat just as fast.

I'm not defending Clinton's dodging, here, in any way. Just saying that it's a whole different ballgame, now. Dubya's character matters because of the times we're in. I'm 21 years old. I don't want to be drafted by a former AWOL guardsman.

PS...

Never ate paste, man. Somehow I fear this makes me unamerican. Somehow I fear not capitalizing the word "American" if there's an "un" in front of it only makes the situation worse. Paste just never appealed to me. I don't know what my problem is.

I sniffed rubber cement, though. That's gotta count for something!

Grant,

I sniffed rubber cement, though. That's gotta count for something!

Yes. It explains your thought processes.

Markus,

Here is an excellent, must-read article by Charles Krauthammer:

http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.19912,filter./news_detail.asp

You are a dreamy liberal internationalist. I am a realistic democratic globalist.

"HA"...

Nice cheap shot. What was it, exactly, about my thought process that you disagreed with, though? I'm just wondering. You never said.

Was it that I said 2004 is a world away from 1992?

Or that Edwards would be running away with it if it weren't?

Or that I was thinking it's maybe a tad hypocritical to be speaking of "evildoers" and to be landing on aircraft carriers in flight suits when you previously used your daddy's connections to skip out of going to Vietnam (only to skip out of what your daddy arranged to skip you out of Vietnam for an entire year)?

Or that, being a pre-law Junior in college with a 3.7 GPA, it would kind of piss me off to get shipped overseas by someone like Bush who, well, managed to get away with all the crap I just mentioned a second ago? (And for the record: I would still go, even if there was an exemption for college students; I would volunteer on principle.)

So which "thought process" is it, my friend? Enlighten me.

Grant,

Yeah, that was a cheap shot. But you took it well, so I give you credit for that.

First of all, there is no draft. You won't be shipped off to war against your will by a "former AWOL guardsman." Not only is there no draft, there is no need for a draft because of all the amazing weapons systems that John Kerry voted against.

Secondly, Bush's military record and your GPA have nothing whatsoever to do with the decision to go to war. The decision to go to war is complex calculation as to whether the risks and costs of going to war are outweighted by the risks and costs of not going to war. You can reasonably argue pro or con on that basis, not on whether Bush landed on an aircraft carrier. Your thought process is a meaningless stream of non sequiturs.

On another topic, if you are white and plan to attend a first tier law school, you better improve your GPA. The law doesn't apply equally to white, asian, black and hispanic any more and the position that you might otherwise be qualified for may be set aside to fulfill a quota. The Democrat's affirmative discrimination policy is more likely to harm you than Bush's war policy.

HA -- there is indeed a need for a draft: so that obnoxious young Republican attending elite colleges (or even better, publicly financed ones), who have already learned everything there is to know, are forced to put down their Ayn Rand novels and experience what is actually involved in the conflicts that they are so enthusiastic for other people to engage in on their behalf.

Krauthammer's article was interesting and provocative. I'll add more comments later, but I would quickly point out that he unconvincingly conflates Bush and Blair's guiding philosophies. Blair's major criteria for invading Iraq had to do not with WMD's so much as Saadam's DELIBERATE FLOUTING of UN Resolutions. As a committed internationalist, he wanted the UN to firmly stand behind the principle that when sovereign nations go against resolutions, there will be hell to pay. Would you agree, and if so, would you extend that principle to the United States or, say, Israel?

HA...

Oh, believe you me, I KNOW just how much affirmative action sucks. I'd do away with ALL identity-based preferences if I could: A Clean Slate And A Level Playing Field For Everyone.

No more geographical preferences. No more race preferences. No more gender preferences. No more family preferences. No more special interests: A Completely Merit-Based System. This is how I'd ideally like to see society organized, as well, with true equal opportunity. It's called liberalism. Other Democrats have just forgotten their core principles.

But, anyway, I've got a 3.7, dude. White or not, so long as I don't screw up my LSAT, I'm in like flint. Worked my ass off these past couple of years.

Markus,

Got a chuckle out of the Ayn Rand reference.

Likewise, all those dreamy college Democrats should tear themselves away from their Che Guevera posters and experience what it is like to be the target of some second or third world genocidal dictator and have the UN on your side. They can start in Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor and, of course, Iraq.

As a committed internationalist, he wanted the UN to firmly stand behind the principle that when sovereign nations go against resolutions, there will be hell to pay.

You're kidding right? Like Bush, Blair also blew off the UN when the time came to choose. And how is the UN going to make anybody pay hell without the backing of a sovereign state with real power? The UN has never accomplished anything without American backing, or in the case of East Timor, Australian backing.

It is time to realize that the UN has failed. It is thoroughly corrupt and doing more harm than good. It has no redeeming qualities. Let's shut it down before it can do any more harm. Let's replace it with an international organization that respects national sovereignty and requires a nation achieve minimum democratic standards before admission. Until then, legitimate and moral nations like the US and Israel should tell the UN to go to hell.

Grant,

It's called liberalism. Other Democrats have just forgotten their core principles.

Maybe you're not so bad after all. By morphing into socialists and calling themselves liberals, the Democrats have perverted the term.

Affirmative discrimination is nothing more than coercive redistribution of educational resources from a disfavored group (marginal whites and asians) to a favored group (black and hispanic elite). This is textbook socialism. It will also fuel a resurgance of white racism:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521808863/104-1221569-9007940?v=glance

Affirmative discrimination is the biggest barrier to racial reconciliation in this country.

Describing is not knowing.

There are no weird people - some just require more understanding.

Perceptions do not limit reality.

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