February 09, 2004

Missing the Point

From the AP:

A letter seized from an al-Qaida courier shows Osama bin Laden has made little headway in recruiting Iraqis for a holy war against America, raising questions about the Bush administration's contention that Iraq is the central front in the war on terror.
Actually, no, it doesnt raise such questions. At least it shouldnt.

Iraq is critical for strategic reasons. The Middle East will continue cranking out terrorists until its political slum has been renovated. We are not going to be safe as long as the Middle Eastern status quo is tyrannical. Slum-clearance had to start somewhere, and no dictator in that region had as pernicious an influence as Saddam Hussein.

The Al Qaeda letter does, however, cast a wee bit of doubt on the idea that invading Iraq would only inspire more terrorists. Chalk that one up to the latest overwrought doom-mongering. Remember that Baghdad was supposed to be the next Stalingrad. The Brutal Afghan Winter and the Empire Destroying Taliban Warrior fantasies didnt amount to much either.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 9, 2004 08:31 PM
Comments

no dictator in that region had as pernicious an influence as Saddam Hussein
Well, except for maybe the Saudi Royal Family. :)

Posted by: Oliver at February 9, 2004 09:25 PM

Oliver: except for maybe the Saudi Royal Family.

Well, that's true enough. Their turn is coming one way or another. I wouldn't want to be occupying Riyadh right now, though. At least we don't need them for oil or basing rights any more...

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 9, 2004 09:37 PM

The letter should also not be construed to mean that Iraq isn't the central front on the war in terror for another reason: The reason Al Qaeda isn't succeeding there is because we are.

Hence, according to AP logic, if Al Qaeda had been successful in recruiting in Iraq the US would have been failures at keeping control of terrorist elements there and "winning hearts and minds", while if they are not successful then Iraq didn't matter in the first place. Damned either way.

Posted by: Zachary Braverman at February 9, 2004 09:37 PM

MT, what steps do you think we should take to deal with the Saudis? I think that Invasion of any sort is begging for disaster, but a blockade might work should we really need to exert pressure.

Posted by: FH at February 9, 2004 09:43 PM

FH: MT, what steps do you think we should take to deal with the Saudis?

Honesty? I don't know. It's a hideous problem. Invasion and occupation really could be a quagmire. Revolution could lead to an Al Qaeda regime.

Maybe down the road Saudi Arabia could be invaded and broken into pieces by a Free Iraq.

One thing's for sure. The Middle East will be an interesting place, in the Chinese sense, for a long time to come.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 9, 2004 09:59 PM

Their turn is coming one way or another.

I am really curious, Michael. Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia. How do you imagine we are going to give the Saudis "their turn"?

Posted by: Mithras at February 9, 2004 09:59 PM

Mithras: How do you imagine we are going to give the Saudis "their turn"?

I wish I knew everything.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 9, 2004 10:12 PM

I'm starting to think the real "central front" is AP News.

Posted by: Disaffected News Junkie at February 9, 2004 10:56 PM

How to liberalize the Saudis?...

"Invasion and Occupation"?

"A Blockade"?

"Broken Into Pieces by a Free Iraq"?

No, No, and No. The economy won't survive it. First thing's first. If we're truly serious about this then we need to be truly serious about this. It's time for an American Twelve-Step Program...

End The Dependence On Saudi Oil!

In the short-run this would have to mean drilling ANWR, the Gulf Coast, and anywhere else we can find the stuff. Environmentalists will scream bloody murder! Tough shit. This would also have to mean a drastic increase in Fuel Efficiency Standards (CAFE Standards, as they're called). The auto comapanies will cry socialism, socialism! Tough shit, once again. Give up your Hummers, folks, or we're all dead.

In the long-run, it would mean a massive R&D investment into finding market-friendly alternative sources of power and hybrid technologies. I refuse to believe that a transition to hybrid energies necessarily has to mean a loss of horsepower. Granted, it does today because the technology simply isn't sufficient. It sucks, I know. But that can change.

What kind of odds do I place on any of this happening? About a million to one. We've become such a spoon-fed, have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too culture that hope is ludicrous. We're probably the most spoiled, fat, lazy, and stupid bunch of citizens the world has ever known and we're led by the all-time biggest Have-Your-Cake-And-Eat-It-Too President in American history. Oil is the drug, the Saudis are the dealer. Forgive me if my optimism is wearing a little thin.

Does anyone here doubt this is what it will take?

Does anyone believe for a second that it'll happen?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 9, 2004 11:48 PM

Sorry for all the simmering nihilism. It's not like me, but I mean every word of it.

In a system of unshakable dogmas and demagogues such as ours has become, what with the near incapacity for self-correction, I hold little hope for such radically moderate thinking.

Common sense has been thrown to the wayside. We need a third-party, a centrist party, in the worst way.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 9, 2004 11:59 PM

Grant,

Let's say we get all our oil from our own hemisphere ten years from now. What effect would that have on Saudi Arabian Islamofascism?

The Saudis might have fewer petrodollars, but they will still have plenty of oil buyers elsewhere in the world, and their fanaticism wouldn't be much abated anyway, at least not because of the shift in our energy usage.

Weaning ourselves off oil isn't a bad idea, but it's no panacea either.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 10, 2004 12:01 AM

Michael,

If it's not a panacea, it's about as close as your going to get to one. Note I said, "First thing's first". Sure, completely cutting ourselves off of Saudi (all middle-eastern perhaps) oil isn't going to do a damn thing for the Saudi people, in and of itself. But neither will Invasion, Blockade, or whatever other solution you want to throw at the problem without first taking this crucial step.

Say we invaded Saudi Arabia. The second we do, the global economy plummets into severe Depression. Say we attempted to set up some sort of blockade. The second we do, again the economy bottoms out. Say we try some other plan of forward engagement. Same results. The point I'm trying to make here is that we can't even begin to deal with the problems of the Saudi population until we begin to deal with the problems of our own addiction...our own addiction to fighting and funding terrorist groups at the same time.

Oil self-dependence isn't the end-all-be-all, you're right. It's only a beginning. But until we decide to take that crucial first step, none of the rest will even be possible.

Besides, I don't see how marching into Mecca and placing an American flag over whatever statue they have there will do us any good back home...under any circumstances.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 12:29 AM

Oh...and if anyone here owns a Hummer and takes offense to my assertion that YOU, personally, are hurting America and the War on Terror...

Drop me an email and we'll chat.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 12:35 AM

How about really helping Iraqi people???
NOT the new Iraqi gov't, but the working folks who want better jobs, better houses, better newspapers.

As Iraqis do better in an Islam-friendly, human rights respecting, free speech accepting, fairly secular, woman-voting (???) democracy, the internal anti-Saud pressures will be increasing.

When the Saudi Islamofascists revolt against the House of Saud -- THEN the US can save the royals of the House, invade and protect the oil, and possibly force democracy. Until then, Syria & Iran are more likely targets for regime change.

The US presence in Iraq is HUGE boost for the internal Arab and Muslim reformists -- but reform always takes time. And pressure. Iraq, and especially its pending democratic success, is already adding pressure -- and AQ knows it, too. (even if this letter is questionable, though I believe it).

Posted by: Tom Grey at February 10, 2004 02:51 AM

What dependence on Saudi oil? That ended the day we invaded Iraq. We now physically control reserves on the par with Saudi Arabia's. Saudi oil is now a matter of temporary convenience.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 10, 2004 05:43 AM

I like the "give up your Hummer" and win the War on Islamic Facsism thingee. It's right up there with the "give up your SUV" and save the environment thingee.

Simple, easy to understand, easy to support (because you don't have or need either a Hummer or an SUV), and requires neither effort nor sacrifice on your part.

Just who is the fat, lazy and stupid citizen here?

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 10, 2004 05:50 AM

Actually, the most probable answer to defanging the Saudis is to seize their oil fields. I mean, go look at maps. They are pretty concentrated. It wouldn't take a great deal of effort to slice them off of S.A.

It isn't like the Saudi Oil Industry employs many Saudis either.

Now, I don't expect that to happen, but hey, its an idea.

Posted by: eric at February 10, 2004 05:50 AM

" The Middle East will continue cranking out terrorists until its political slum has been renovated"

Seems to me that this implies, that the most fertile ground for terrorism is a place like Saddam's Iraq. So it must be first on the list in the great anti-terrorist slum clearance project.

But actually, it strikes me that the opposite is probably true. For all the horrors of Saddam, and all the horrors of life under his regime, I dont see any evidence that Iraq was 'cranking out terrorists". Probably the contrary. No one, or no group would be allowed to coalesce around any political objective other than fealty to Saddam.

Posted by: tano at February 10, 2004 06:29 AM

Grant --

With all due respect, invading Saudi Arabia (not that I advocate it right now, mind you) would not plunge us into a global depression. The invasion of Iraq didn't even come close that doing that, and it is a much larger country (in terms of population). The financial cost of the Iraq War was relatively low to the US (a few hundred billion dollars in an economy with an annual GNP approaching 10 trillion dollars). Please, stop the alarmism.

Posted by: Ben at February 10, 2004 06:46 AM

Tano

I think you are missing the point, what cranks out terrorists is oppression, hence Syria, Saudi, PLO and Egypt crank them out in abundance. Iraq did not crank them out because they did not need them, they though they had a competent militiary able to handle the region so Saddam kept a firm hand on his extremists by feeding them into shredders and the like. But by deposing Saddam, and planting the seeds of liberty and democracy, We have now taken the high ground as it were. We are now beginning to shape events instead of reacting to terrorists, they are reacting to us. This is what is so frustrating that the media is so reflexifly short sighted, Bush and company have tried but have not convincingly sold this strategic vision, which is breathtaking in its boldness. The press focuses on the day to day struggle or stupid distractions like missing WMDs while missing the progress and the true horror of the global wmds weapons bazaar that was being run.
I love Bush because he seems to get it, as inarticulate as he is, he came alive during that passage on MTP, Kerry for all his glibness, does not seem to see that by draining the swamp in the middle east is the only way to win, and Iraq was a great place to start (oil, kurds were making go of it, educated populace, saddam evil, aiding terrorists, wmd programs). He feels that terrorism is a law enforcemnt problem. So did Clinton and Bush for 8 months, I saw what happens. Twin towers become holes. I wish bush was a better speaker but he has that vision thing and its a winning vision in the long run.

Posted by: Kevin at February 10, 2004 06:54 AM

Kevin,
First of all, to the extent that Bush has the great Wilsonian vision of bringing freedom and democracy to the Middle East, I think you must acknowledge that that had little to do with why he took us to war there. It seems quite clear that the plan was to go to Baghdad, dig up some WMD, then have Jay Garner organize a handoff of power to our new favorite stooge - Chalabi, and then get the hell out. All you need do is look back and review what Garner's mission was, and the timetable he had.

Democratic nation building is a huge undertaking. You cannot simply take down a dictator and put someone else in place and then claim you are improving things very much. How would Chalabi manage to rule the country?

The great vision thing seems to be very much a post-hoc justification, given that the WMD threat justification proved specious. Maybe we should just say - so what! However it is that we arrived at this point, it is a good point to be at. I can understand that argument.

But it is not just Bush who has this vision thing NOW. I think the great majority of people, including people like Howard Dean, have accepted the fact that now we are there, we had damn well better make something good out of the situation, especially for the Iraqi people - and something that can give evidence to them and to the world of what our values are.

So I dont really understand your love of Bush. He is certainly on record historically of being totally averse to this type of nation-building. This was never his real vision. If circumstances have conspired to lead him to accept that vision, well fine, but that doesnt distinguish him from the great majority of other politicians.

I think you make a false linkage to the question of whether the anti-terrorism effort is a war or a law-enforcement effort. The effort to invade Iraq was not motivated by Wilsonian principles, even if we have embraced them now. And the question of whether the president who is serving over the next four years will effectivly advance freedom and democracy in Iraq is not answered by the issue of whether they have a war attitude or a policing attitude. That is not a distinction that will influence the direction of political evolution in Iraq. Rather it is a question of whether they have the deep seated (not merely opportunistic) commitment to real nation building.

Posted by: tano at February 10, 2004 07:20 AM

Quoth Dennis:

Simple, easy to understand, easy to support (because you don't have or need either a Hummer or an SUV), and requires neither effort nor sacrifice on your part.

Well, hold on a bit. Me, I ride the bus; I own a car but I only need to fill it up once a month or so. I minimize driving for a lot of reasons---one among them is this geopolitical business.

Now, according to you because I do all these things I can't criticize people who make different choices on these grounds (driving a Hummer where (say) a Blazer or something would do) because it would involve neither effort nor sacrifice on my part... because I'm not driving a Hummer now. Okay....

It also seems reasonable that if I WAS driving a Hummer now it'd be patently hypocritical for me for me to criticize people for doing that.

So, Dennis, is it EVER legitimate for someone to criticize someone else's consumption choices? If they're already making different choices then they're taking cheap shots; if they're not they're patent hypocrites. Seems to cover all the bases to me!

Personally, I think that people's situations differ and choices are weighed with a variety of pros and cons. I feel it's /perfectly/ legit to point out that driving a Hummer is inconsistent with various geopolitical goals most people share and that ceteris paribus it should be avoided.

All things are rarely equal, though, and there are other considerations. Merely pointing out that something is on the debit side of the ledger doesn't deny that there other factors at play.

Posted by: Ben Keen at February 10, 2004 07:35 AM

Saudi Arabia only functions as a society because of guest workers. The Saudis pay foreign workers much more than they could earn at home. That makes up for the natives treating the guests like untouchables. Extreme dependence on foreign labor represents the biggest source of vulnerability for the House of Saud. The question is, how do you disrupt the availability of cheap labor? One answer is to create an alternate labor market that can compete.

I'm hoping that's part of the game plan for Iraq. Give that country a half-way decent economic infrastructure and a tolerant society, and it can suck up all the available arabic-speaking talent currently running Saudi Arabia.

Sure, it's a long-term thing, but doesn't that sound like a Rumsfield kind of scheme? And in the best assassin tradition, it's a wicked example of an unseen blade.

Posted by: Mark at February 10, 2004 08:50 AM

Tano: The great vision thing seems to be very much a post-hoc justification

Everyone from Bush on down to myself was trumpeting this long before the invasion started and you antis put your hands over your ears and refused to listen. It's not our fault you're only just now noticing.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 10, 2004 09:02 AM

It doesnt take a communications professional, of which the WH has many, to figure out that it is smart to throw in some idealistic lines about the future of Iraq when trying to sell the war. But you have to look at the reality rather than just the rhetoric. The plan was quite obvious. Pacify the country, and as quickly as possible, turn it over to the expats of the Iraqi National Congress - a group that had no support amongst the people in Iraq, but certainly had the support and the contacts to function in the international corporate world. And I dont think it is in any sense some crazy conspiracy theory to state that their intention would be to hold elections only when they had secured some sort of a following (won through their control of the nations finances), and to sell off the nationalized industries (yes I am referring to the "o" word) to the highest corporate bidders.

I dont see this as bringing freedom and democracy to the country. Perhaps it is the Republican vision of that.

Posted by: tano at February 10, 2004 10:27 AM

and as quickly as possible, turn it over to the expats of the Iraqi National Congress - a group that had no support amongst the people in Iraq,

First, what is your interpretation of what the administration considered "as quickly as possible" versus what is the reality? Yes, of course we want to turn the rulership of the country over to the Iraqis, and sooner rather than later, but not until it's deemed advisable to do so. Right now I suppose they consider the end of June advisable - you may think that's "as quick as possible" but more than one year after the invasion ended - doesn't sound too hasty to me.

Also, you don't really think this council, made up of representatives from all over the country, has no support? Not even a little? Not a smidgen? Clearly it doesn't have universal support - the religious and ethnic differences run wide and deep between Sunnis, Shiites, etc - but that doesn't mean it has no support. Otherwise why would some of their members be targets of assassination attempts?

Beware of hyperbole turning itself into fact....

Posted by: Barry at February 10, 2004 10:53 AM

As Steven den Beste wrote, why was the first country we invaded in WWII Morocco?

And people, the 5th(?) largest oil reserves are on our northern border. We have oil above us, below us--Mexico, off each coast, in the Gulf and in my state of IL.

Why can't we drill? Who thinks we don't have oil? Wouldn't drilling mean good-paying union jobs using American-made equipment?

Even AFTER going into ANWR, it would still be bigger than West Virginia. IF ANWR were a state, it'd be the 11th smallest.

Posted by: Sandy P. at February 10, 2004 10:54 AM

barry,
You have completely missed the point of what I was saying. I was not referring to the provisional authority now in place. I was referring to the plan that Jay Garner was sent to implement. A plan that was obviously changed radcially when they had to face the reality of the situation on the ground, and needed to justify, after-the-fact, why we went in there in the first place.
The plan was to turn over the coutry to the INC. Today, the INC is only part of a larger authority, obviously.
Try to pay attention to the conversation before you take out after me.

Posted by: tano at February 10, 2004 11:02 AM

I'll try and keep up.

Posted by: Barry at February 10, 2004 11:11 AM

I read that same AP news article yesterday and was annoyed at the editorial liberties the journalist took. I mean, is he reporting the news? or is it an editorial piece?

I don't mind editorial pieces, in fact I enjoy them. But his editorial posing as news is what's annoying.

Posted by: David at February 10, 2004 11:30 AM

Grant – Saudi Arabia is the main exporter of terrorism and extreme Muslim fundamentalism. They’re not just a threat to us, they’re a threat to moderate Muslim nations, they’re a threat everyone who does not share their extreme beliefs. Many Muslims regard the current Saudi leaders as ‘usurpers to the throne’. We’re not the only ones who would be happy to see them go. Leaving these so-called ‘leaders’ and their destructive Wahhabi cult in charge of the world’s oil supply is the worst possible course of action to take.

Reducing general oil dependence is a good idea, and it’s something that could have an effect on the Saudis in maybe about 20 years. Since Saudis are spending billions to finance terrorist paramilitaries in Iraq, Chechnya, etc., paramilitaries who slaughter people on a daily basis, it would probably be a good idea to for us and other nations to take action towards dismembering this Kingdom as soon as possible.

A free Iraq would probably be happy to join in. The al Qaeda letter is proof that most Iraqis do not sympathize with al Qaeda and the insurgents – of course, the press tends to ignore that message..…

Posted by: mary at February 10, 2004 11:33 AM

Mary and Grant,

I seriously doubt the House of Saud will exist in 20 years. I don't know what, but something is going to happen.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 10, 2004 11:45 AM

Michael - I hope you're right. It's a surprise (and a shame) that the Kingdom has lasted this long.

Posted by: mary at February 10, 2004 12:12 PM

Im not sure what the general atomosphere is on the streets of Riyadh today, but 12 years ago the people of Saudi Arabia seemed friendly toward americans. When I was there during Gulf War I, I never felt threatened by Saudis and I cant remember any terrorist attacks while I was there. In fact if a terrorist wanted to carry out an attack back then, it would have been very easy. Maybe they felt we were protecting them from Saddam. Anyway, just wondering what's changed in the past 12 years, it didnt always used to be like this.

For what its worth file.

Posted by: mnm at February 10, 2004 02:01 PM

Sigh...

Look, everybody, I'd love nothing more than to watch the House of Saud meet "shock and awe", but I can't possibly imagine ANY sort of military intervention into the Muslim Holy Land going well. Huge understatement, here.

The idea is to convince the peoples of these countries that we're NOT after their oil, that we're all for freedom of worship (even Islam) and NOT out to Christianize them, and that we're fighting for THEIR freedom.

That's how, in the end, we'll win the War on Terror: By offering these people something better than what they've got now...Liberty and Self-Determination.

Iraqi oil is not rightfully ours nor should it ever be, it belongs to the Iraqi people. Saudi oil is not rightfully ours nor should IT ever be, it belongs to the Saudi people. Raping them of their natural resources would put us on no better moral footing than Saddam and the Saudi Royal Family. Under these circumstances, if we take their oil, they will have traded one dictatorship for another. Any suggestion otherwise is the advocation of colonialism and in direct violation of everything this country is founded upon.

We're not the Roman Empire, guys.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 03:47 PM

Michael...

As for your assertion that the House of Saud will no longer exist in the year 2024, I think it all may come down to what we do on July 1.

The dream of a Free Iraq may very well shatter into Civil War if Bush cares more about November than the Iraqi people. I guess you could say this is the defining issue for me...

If Bush hands over authority on July 1 and Kerry calls him out for abandoning the Iraqi people and seriously endangering the lives of the remaining 100,000 troops I'll vote JFK in a heartbeat.

If Bush delays as he should and Kerry (a Vet mind you) cheaply attacks him for it, I'll vote for Dubya just as fast.

It all comes down to that, really: Who is more committed to nation-building in Iraq and to the safety of our troops. I think that you and I can both agree it's that important.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 04:00 PM

"win the War on Terror: By offering these people something better than what they've got now...Liberty and Self-Determination."

Not based on fact, but personal observation. The Saudis have it pretty good. The cities seem modern for the most part. Almost everyone is driving a Benz or a suburban. The houses are huge and new. Most of the hard work seems to be done by 3rd world nationals.
I dont know how they got so pissed off, they've got it good. At least thats what I saw.

Things have probably changed in the past 12 years I guess.

So, they have food, nice shelter, free health care. Freedom and self determination? I dont know, they just dont seem oppressed to me. (except the women) They seem, well rich and happy.

Maybe its the getting laid factor. You figure all the older rich guys have 5 or 10 wives each, do the math, there arent enough women to go around. You get a few million young guys together who have no chance of getting laid, promise them 700 virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up and what have you got?

Posted by: m@m.com at February 10, 2004 04:17 PM

"they just don't seem oppressed to me (except the women)"...

Women's rights = Reason enough.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 04:22 PM

Saudi citizens have no freedom. No one can vote, women can't drive or wear what they want, both sexes get beaten on the streets by the religious police if they don't pray when they're supposed to, "blasphemers" get their heads chopped off in public, and on and on and on.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 10, 2004 04:32 PM

In other words, Saudi Arabia is Afghanistan with petrodollars.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 10, 2004 04:33 PM

Saudi Arabia is Afghanistan with petrodollars - in some ways, they're even worse. The Taliban didn’t like other religions, but they allowed them to exist within their borders. The Saudis don’t allow the practice of any other religion within their borders.

We’re not the Roman empire, we’re not even the aggressors here. On 9/11, Muslim paramilitaries (mostly Saudi), financed by members of the Saudi government, slaughtered thousands of Americans in an unprovoked act of war. That fact alone is enough to justify a war against the Kingdom.

Since 9/11, Saudi support of paramilitary groups like al Qaeda has been reduced by less than 4%. Currently the terrorist economy is worth about a trillion dollars, rivaling our own capitalist economy.

Saudis have spent billions to spread their philosophy of Islamic extremism around the world. The result of this has been a culture of hate that has caused the deaths of millions. They’re killing people in the name of their cause and they have no intention of stopping. They support terrorist paramilitaries in Russia, Iraq, Indonesia and Israel.

When these Islamists talk about their ‘freedom,’ they’re talking about their freedom to impose their intolerant beliefs on Shiites, Sufis, Christians, Jews – most of the world’s population. According to their religious beliefs, kafir, or unbelievers are unclean ‘polytheists’ whose lives are worth very little.

On the upside, they don’t hate everything about us. They like American cars and Coca-Cola.

Posted by: mary at February 10, 2004 05:38 PM

"Women's rights = Reason enough."

Yes, and for me that creates a problem with islam in general. Once we are all honest about the plight of woman in the islamic world, are we not obligated to do something about it. Im no Koran expert, but I think the Koran has pretty harsh rules for women.

Actually just another log on the fire for me.

"Saudi citizens have no freedom. No one can vote, women can't drive or wear what they want, both sexes get beaten on the streets by the religious police if they don't pray when they're supposed to, "blasphemers" get their heads chopped off in public, and on and on and on."

Ive heard all that Mike, Im just saying there isnt that feeling of oppression or despair in the streets. I never saw anyone beat for anything, and there were plenty of people not praying at prayer time. I heard stories of people getting their heads chopped off for stupid offenses like causing a death in a car accident, but those were just stories.

Maybe they were just playing nice while their guests were there.

I guess my point is that I think we ought to find out what it is exactly that makes these guys tick. Not to justify, but so we can fight this war on every front possible. Also I want to know what event after May 1991 unified the muslim extremists against us. Again not to justify, Im curious.

Posted by: mnm at February 10, 2004 05:47 PM

Mmm:

You can find the answer to your question in this superb essay called Terror and Liberalism by Paul Berman. Like the essay? Buy the book with the same name.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 10, 2004 05:56 PM

One very simple point to keep in mind. As Democrats and the left scream that Bush is going to "sell out" Iraq for political gain (which I don't believe) let's realize that the unbelievable politicization of this situation by Bush's opponents is the thing putting pressure on him. Naturally he wants to be re-elected. I dare say he, like Lincoln, thinks his defeat would mean the loss of the war. Thus, one can hardly blame him for doing what is necessary to prevent short term setbacks from hurting him. Imagine if Republicans screamed about every setback in WWII? Actually only one group tried to force Roosevelt to take actions for political rather than strategic reasons, the communist supporting left who railed for "a second front now" years before the Normandy landing was ready. Lincoln's enemies from both sides killed him after each and every setback. With today's Democrats, I get the sense that this is a game for them. That they see no longterm strategic consequences to our defeat except for Bush leaving the White House. It makes me sick to my stomache but it is not unprecedented in our history.

Posted by: Doug at February 10, 2004 08:07 PM

Mary,

I think I made this point (Bush's is not turning a blind eye or giving a pass) on your website a few weeks ago. I believe the Saudi's (and Pakistanis as well as others) are on Bush's list, he is pacing himself accordingly. The one thing that I think is the biggest misread of President Bush is that he is going to both cut and run or somehow short change the War on Terror, I see it the opposite. I think this President has more persistence than any of his critics including myself. It reminds me of a time when I went camping in Canada, we camped by a lake. We could never find the bottom of this lake, but more amazing was that this was the case even 12 ft from the lakes edge. This President may appear shallow to some, but when someone finds the bottom of his resolve let me know, and I want you to show it to me. Some people have tried. I’ve yet to see it.

Posted by: Samuel at February 10, 2004 09:48 PM

Yes...I for one absolutely believe the guy is capable of abandoning the Iraqi people, the "cut and run". Bush is both shallow and resolved at the same time and that's the real problem.

The Administration NeoCons, for all their bluster and big-stick policies, are still somewhat influenced by the old Republican "blow shit up and get the hell out of dodge" school of defense. Bush viscerally opposed nation-building back in 2000 and I think there's still a big part of the guy resentful of it today.

You can hear it when he cautiously declares that we're "peacekeepers not peacemakers". You can hear it when he says "as long as it takes AND NOT A DAY LONGER". These guys aren't first and foremost liberal hawks. They're NeoCons.

In strict NeoCon thinking: Saddam had posed a serious threat to America since 1991. Saddam had to be taken out. Saddam got taken out. Threat eliminated. Next.

This is all fine and well, it truly is, but I can hardly see Bush demanding sacrifice from the American people to stick this out as many YEARS as it takes. Sacrifice is a foreign concept the Bush Administration.

Karl Rove and company will have to make a vital judgemnet in the next couple of months. If they determine that extending the July 1 deadline would likely cost Bush the election, they won't do it: The Iraqi people be damned. They need to come to terms with the fact that nation-building is really really hard, but haven't yet come close.

I guess what I'm getting at is that, yes, Bush is highly resolved to topple and destroy terrorist supporting regimes (where arguably the Democrats are not) but he's incredibly shallow in that this single-minded focus for destruction is all that's there. The anti-interventionist streak in him forbids long nation-building commitments (where arguably the Democrats would do a better job if they could get their act together and stop kissing Kofi Annan's ass so much).

Republicans are willing to pull the trigger but typically refuse to clean up the mess because they're not liberals. Democrats are willing to clean up the mess but typically hesitate to pull the trigger because they're not conservatives.

So...that's the way it is. You decide what's more important the next 4 years: Doing What It Takes to Build a Free Iraq or Doing What It Takes to Face Down Other Regimes. That's the ultimate choice in the voting booth...finishing what we started or moving on to the next target. Republicans will do one and Democrats the other. Neither will do both.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 10:39 PM

Well, hold that last thought there...

Lieberman would likely do both. He's the only politician out there that I know of with the balls to "shock and awe" AND the heart to do what's right in the aftermath of it.

Moral CLARITY and Moral COMMITMENT all neatly and nicely wrapped up into one extraordinarily boring package...that's "Joltin' Joe". Joe Lieberman is truly the last of the Scoop Jackson liberal hawks. Sucks he has to be to Joe Lieberman though, doesn't it.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 10, 2004 10:52 PM

Grant,

I prepared a response and have decided not to post it and I'll tell you why. First I literally came back twice just to make sure Mark Garrity had not posted this, but alas it was you. Grant I have found your posts to be usually more thoughtful and substantive in argument and worthy by comparison. I can come off quite glib and biting but felt you deserved less harsh and benefit if the doubt.

You gave no real-time reasons to justify your take on Bush's character. You did give some ideological pronouncements that had a very straw man like effect to them.

I am a neo-con in every sense of the word, Jewish, educated, former hard liberal, Marxist Grandparents from Germany, and quite frankly viewed it intemperate to say the least. You speak many stereotypical neo-con lines and use them quite cynically for the sole purpose of trashing him, but worse they all applied to future events as if they had already happened. This of course is bunk and the general pattern of your post, condemning him for what he has yet to do. That says more of you Grant not Bush. In fact you didn’t really address what he had done, just all the screwing up he was going to do, but in the spirit of a foregone conclusion.

Politics never permits ideological purity or we’d have flat taxes in a Republican world and 70+% tax-rates on the wealthy in a Democratic world. Grant, neo-con orthodoxy is subject to the same political realities. Your willingness to argue for Bushes political suicide alone also tells me how much you believe and care for him. I see Bush’s desire to survive 2004 as a desire to finish those neo-con ends that you as a mtter of fact foresee him abandoning.

The difference between you and me is trust. I believe he will prove you quite the pessimist, because you are arguing against his own past display of character. When has he ever cut and run? Political elections in Iraq this June, July or whenever while we militarily continue to protect as well as rebuild the country isn’t cutting and running and most certainly doesn’t betray neo-con orthodoxy, your characterizations of neo-cons is used cynically and bothers me. Let me speak for the neo-cons if that is how you speak for them.

Grant you foresee behavior on the Presidents part that his own history doesn’t support in one bit. He doesn’t behave in such ways or show such proclivities. Are you still a grieving Democrat and projecting just a little? Maybe dismay he is a Republican?

But hey I could be wrong maybe you do believe these things. They come off extremely prejudicial to me. I need real time proof Grant,, not Mark Garrity style pronouncements, or unproven prediction rooted in prejudice and no facts. But proof of character analysis, displaying a true show of respect and understanding of Bush’s nature. The second I hear someone making pronouncements, analogies and predictions about this President that wholly reject his true nature and character or just doesn’t take in account such things, I know the analysis is doomed to be wrong for such things are a big part of the equation for Bush.

Every thing he does is for principle. So tell me his principles. Just answer one question if that is all you decide, it will tell me all I need to know… Grant, winning isn’t a principle for Bush, he desires to win for a reason, why does he want to win re-election? Your answer would tell would tell me a lot. Your reasoning up to this point rings false to me. Your follow up was guilty of the same. Bush has all the moral commitment and moral clarity Lieberman has. And again you don’t explain how you came you came to view Bush as inferior to Lieberman on this. Where is the beef.?

Posted by: Samuel at February 11, 2004 01:49 AM

Well said, Samuel, but ...
Bush is wimpy on econ numbers, enough to add fuel to Bush-haters. Even though I suspect, despite being against deficits, that his policies are really close to optimal.
The Bush military flap. Maybe not officially AWOL, but likely taking advantage of being an irresponsible son of a VIP, and doing less than the minimum, but getting away with it. Less bad than Clinton, less two-faced than Kerry; before he became born again. Why not put these cards out more clearly, earlier? (Maybe this is a good time; by the time Kerry is fully focused, it will be old news).

Bush HAS shown guts in follow through so far, and after 3 years of pushing the things he said he would push, that's quite a lot. Maybe I'm suffering from being open-minded and thus polluted by excessive Bush-hate, despite disagreeing with it?

Which is the purpose of libelous accusations, isn't it?

Posted by: Tom Grey at February 11, 2004 06:17 AM

Samuel – You did make that point before, very eloquently on my website – yes, patience is a virtue. We should do something about the Saudis as soon as possible, but it may not, for many reasons, be possible yet. Bush may have some very good reasons for waiting. I was just pointing out that when he does decide to take action against destructive, warmongering regimes like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, his actions will be entirely justified.

Posted by: mary at February 11, 2004 07:18 AM

Mary,

Fair enough, agree with you 100%. Also, I hope you had a great vacation as well. God Bless.

Posted by: Samuel at February 11, 2004 08:53 AM

Samuel...

Okay brother, you're right, I did kinda go overboard a little there and I apologize. I was in a pretty strange mood yesterday. Forgive me.

Let's see...first off, ideological purity scares me and I'm hardly arguing for any "pure" ideology here. Ideology is dogmatic and anti-intellectual. I'm a neo-lib. We're fans of empirical trial and error and subject our core beliefs to scrutiny. We believe you gotta go with what works.

Secondly..."everything he does is for principle"?! You've got to be kidding me. Principle applies, sure, but Karl Rove is the mastermind. You may very well believe that Bush should be asking us for greater sacrifice, as I do, in times like these and that he probably doesn't have the political capital to do it. I'll give you that. Thing is though, he doesn't even try. The Farm Bill, the Energy Bill, the Tax Cuts, the Prescription Drug Handout to Big Pharma, the MOONBASE!!! I could go on and on and on. He should be asking us for sacrifice and making the connections, instead he merely plays to our vanity and needs for mass consumption. Tax cut and spend, tax cut and spend, tax cut and spend, eat your cake and have it too...at least the Democrats realize that someone's got to pay for all this crap and are honest enough to say it.

Thirdly...about the NeoCons. The NeoCons were the ones with visions of rose parades and cake walks, were they not? The NeoCons were the ones unwilling to put more troops on the ground when rose parades never materialized in the rebuilding of Iraq and the ones unwilling to storm Tora Bora to go after Osama in Afghanistan, were they not? They don't subject their beliefs to scrutiny. They stick with them no matter how wrong they've been proven to be. I find them to be dangerously delusional in their understanding of foreign cultures and traditions (particularly having to do with a fierce resistance to percieved colonialism), naive in their assessment of anti-Americanism, and adverse to doing things because they're hard: All bark, no bite. Donald Rumsfeld is the perfect embodiment of what I'm getting at: Arrogance, Pompousity, Superiority, and Conceit masking a cowardice to admit mistakes. To fully back this up I'd have to write you a dissertation which I'm not gonna do. A reasoned "prejudice" will simply have to do for now. Sorry.

Fourth...Bush and Lieberman. Lieberman is a Kennedy-style Democrat in the finest sense of the world. He stood up to his own party about Iraq on principle. He repeatedly called for more American troops, a hugely unpopular but factually acurate assessment of the situation, on principle. He's independent, in a nutshell, and honest about it. He believes in doing things not because they're easy but because they're hard and keeping an open mind. There's a sense of clarity and commitment to the guy. Bush on the other hand cut and ran in Afghanistan, to answer your question. Why should I rationally believe he will stick around to get the job done right in Iraq? To answer another one...yes, I am a grieving Democrat. I look to the party of Scoop Jackson and realize it no longer exists. But, I don't wish Bush to be a Democrat for a second. It just hurts like hell that the Democrats have yet to offer anything better. Democrats have been wanting to, in essence, do less in the world which equates to isolationism which I hate. We're starting to think like Pat Buchanan, for Christ's sake! They should be calling upon President Bush to do more, not less, for the Iraqi people. That's true liberalism: Doing more.

I think you misunderstood me on a point or two. I fully believe that Bush wants to win re-election in order to win the War on Terror and I applaud his resolve and sense of purpose, a sense of purpose I've admittedly not yet seen from any Democrat spare Lieberman (a man with no party). It's just that I think he's failed to come to grips with the realities of such an enormusly huge task. Lieberman, McCain, Lugar, and a few others get it. Bush doesn't. I trust his heart, but I doubt his stomach. I trust his intentions, but I doubt his ability to deal with harsh realities. It's one thing to believe in something and it's another thing to actually do it when you find out how hard it really is.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Bush will extend the deadline to beyond July 1. If he does, I think it will probably be due to the fact that Rove has judged it a politically wiser course of action for November than letting Iraq slip into Civil War. I suppose these are political realities, right? Maybe they are. But I'm still not seeing a Wilsonian willingness to risk throwing it all away on principle. Abandoning Iraq to a "civil authority" not yet ready to lead and without the legitimacy of the Iraqi people would probably be a worse course of action in my mind than handing the White House to the less-than-resolved Dems for 4 years.

A Free Iraq will bring about a Free Iran, and others, twice as fast by giving hope to the reformers in those countries. That to me is way bigger than a presidential term. If Bush pushes back the deadline and loses because of it, at least Iraq will have a decent shot. They won't if he takes the easy way out come July 1.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 11, 2004 12:57 PM

And I'm not a Bush-hater to anyone who's already thinking it. I think he's got the big picture but perhaps afraid of doing the hard work required to make it a reality, that's all. It makes logical sense to assume that a possibility considering the man's never actually worked a day in his life.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 11, 2004 01:01 PM

Grant, you said:

But I'm still not seeing a Wilsonian willingness to risk throwing it all away on principle.

Wasn't it his "principle" that got us into Iraq in the first place?

Posted by: Bejammon at February 11, 2004 01:47 PM

Okay brother, you're right, I did kinda go overboard a little there and I apologize. I was in a pretty strange mood yesterday. Forgive me.

No problem. I wish you wold have left it there though.

Let's see...first off, ideological purity scares me and I'm hardly arguing for any "pure" ideology here… We believe you gotta go with what works.

Now Grant you are a neo-liberal, so you are coming at your criticism as a fiscal conservative I take it? Any way as a neo-con you know a “neo-liberal on steroids” or neo-liberal with boots. The goal of a neo-con is to establish or export neo-liberalism, Bush will do this in Iraq, he knows the end-game.

Secondly..."everything he does is for principle"?! You've got to be kidding me. Principle applies, sure, but Karl Rove is the mastermind.

No Grant when I am kidding, I will say so. Karl Rove is a tactician. He does not drive Bush’s Ideology. Bush is his own mastermind, I wonder how Carl Rove keeps up with him quite frankly. Your statements remind me of what I used to say about Reagan in the 80’s when I was about your age. His staff was running everything Reagan didn’t have the mind to think for himself. Your characterizations of Bush will prove equally wrong I guarantee. A total underestimation of Bush the man. I like to say that Bush is a Jacksonian type, one who knows we live in neo-con times. My judge of him is just more positive and ideology has nothing to do with it. Bush has more practicality in one finger than you or I have in our whole selves.

You may very well believe that Bush should be asking us for greater sacrifice, as I do, in times like these and that he probably doesn't have the political capital to do it. I'll give you that. Thing is though, he doesn't even try. The Farm Bill, the Energy Bill, the Tax Cuts, the Prescription Drug Handout to Big Pharma, the MOONBASE!!! .

Should have stuck to the first sentence and left it at that. That was the answer. Everything else is a subtext. This one paragraph alone tells me the War on Terror is more important to Bush than you as well as anyone else who endeavors to advise him. Everthing else politically for him is secondary. That makes him behaving like a true neo-con and he will continue to not only piss the Republicans off but you as well, for me an evil neo-con a very good sign indeed.

I could go on and on and on...at least the Democrats realize that someone's got to pay for all this crap and are honest enough to say it.

The Democrats aren’t saying it with honesty, they say it with cynicism, please Grant I know better, these are the same Democrats who couldn’t muster enough votes for the 87 billion, who wouldn’t have passed NAFTA or Welfare reform as well. One advantage I have Grant that makes what you say not fly is that I was saying the same things six months ago and my brother continues to tell me every day. I stand by my statements about your own inner struggles and don’t blame you, please don’t point out to me about Democrats, honesty and principles in the same sentence, it is an oxymoron to say the least.

Thirdly...about the NeoCons. The NeoCons were the ones with visions of rose parades and cake walks, were they not?... Donald Rumsfeld is the perfect embodiment of what I'm getting at: Arrogance, Pompousity, Superiority, and Conceit masking a cowardice to admit mistakes. To fully back this up I'd have to write you a dissertation.

No Grant they were not. Rumsfeld and Cheney are not Neo-cons, and Richared Perle and Woosley are still Democrats. Wolfowitz, Kristol, Feith, Ledeen and true neo-cons as a whole said no-such things, part of neo-con orthodoxy is that a generation of neo-liberalism in Iraq is the minimum necessary to achieve those end. Bush knows this, it will be done. All your analysis about liberal deficit hawks sounds real hollow to me. Bush is more focused then them all. You misread will come back to you in spades. Please write that dissertation and E-mail it to me I’d like to see it.

The NeoCons were the ones unwilling to put more troops on the ground when rose parades never materialized in the rebuilding of Iraq and the ones unwilling to storm Tora Bora to go after Osama in Afghanistan, were they not? They don't subject their beliefs to scrutiny. They stick with them no matter how wrong they've been proven to be. I find them to be dangerously delusional in their understanding of foreign cultures and traditions (particularly having to do with a fierce resistance to percieved colonialism), naive in their assessment of anti-Americanism, and adverse to doing things because they're hard: All bark, no bite.

This Grant is very ridiculous, a liberal telling a neo-con that they don’t understand foreign culture and tradition? My god man! No political group holds a candle on such matters, in any political circle, over the neo-cons. They epitomize the exact opposite of what you pronounced. The true meaning of your statement? Grants wisdom exceeds theirs! Well we will see won’t we. I’ll stick with them thank you very much. By the way the liberals pronouncements were and have always been the most intemperate and ill-proven. Less than 600 deaths after 1 year is on the side of Wolfowitz’s analizations where you get your info I have no idea. On this Wolfowitz is the guru and true Bush advisor not any one of the people you mention above including Rove. Bush is choosing those he is listening to well. Way better than you give him crdit for in your fits of ideological prejudice.

Fourth...Bush and Lieberman. Lieberman is a Kennedy-style Democrat in the finest sense of the world. He stood up to his own party about Iraq on principle. He repeatedly called for more American troops, a hugely unpopular but factually acurate assessment of the situation, on principle…

Yes Grant but Lieberman couldn’t convince people of the same principles Bush could. That is the definition of leadership my friend. Bush has it, Lieberman doesn’t sorry. I love Joe, hey I’m Jewish. He isn’t the leader Bush is.

Bush on the other hand cut and ran in Afghanistan, to answer your question. Why should I rationally believe he will stick around to get the job done right in Iraq? To answer another one...yes, I am a grieving Democrat. I look to the party of Scoop Jackson and realize it no longer exists. But, I don't wish Bush to be a Democrat for a second. It just hurts like hell that the Democrats have yet to offer anything better. Democrats have been wanting to, in essence, do less in the world which equates to isolationism which I hate. We're starting to think like Pat Buchanan, for Christ's sake! They should be calling upon President Bush to do more, not less, for the Iraqi people. That's true liberalism: Doing more.

Did Bush cut and run? Or is he allocating resources? How underhanded can you be? So Bush shouldn’t have invaded Iraq while he had the political capital that you seem to discount. I am grateful Grant Bush doesn’t take advise from you, though I’m sure he understands your frustrations and feels them himself. Grant, Bush is addressing the problems not causing them, you seem to mistake the two as well and also criticize him for things beyond his control. Grant, Bush took gutsy risks, besting the odds in every time and you show gratefulness by carping like one looking through the scope of a proctologist and pronouncing the ugliness of what they see, all this while blaming the doctor for the view. Step back from that proctologist scope my friend and witness the slow conquering of the diseases that ail us and quit you bickering. He couldn’t do more with the pared down military he was handed and you make no such accounting in you pronouncement. He is throwing everything we have. The truth is you don’t share his vision of process. That Grant does not equate to cutting and running any more than his intelligence about WMD’s amounts to lies.

I think you misunderstood me on a point or two. I fully believe that Bush wants to win re-election in order to win the War on Terror and I applaud his resolve and sense of purpose, a sense of purpose I've admittedly not yet seen from any Democrat spare Lieberman (a man with no party). It's just that I think he's failed to come to grips with the realities of such an enormusly huge task. Lieberman, McCain, Lugar, and a few others get it. Bush doesn't. I trust his heart, but I doubt his stomach. I trust his intentions, but I doubt his ability to deal with harsh realities. It's one thing to believe in something and it's another thing to actually do it when you find out how hard it really is.

You trust Bush’s heart but not his stomach? Should I question your heart and stomach Grant because your wishy washiness is something I’ve never witnessed in Bush. Reverse the statement though it might make more sense, though still wouldn’t be true. This guy has the stomach. My take? Mind of steel and heart of gold. Maybe your right but I doubt it.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Bush will extend the deadline to beyond July 1. If he does, I think it will probably be due to the fact that Rove has judged it a politically wiser course of action for November than letting Iraq slip into Civil War. I suppose these are political realities, right? Maybe they are.

Give me proof Grant that Rove judges and rules such things, either a backslap at Bush or further misreading and under-estimation of Bush’s decision making process. Also Bush’s mind is to win every adjustment will serve that end.

But I'm still not seeing a Wilsonian willingness to risk throwing it all away on principle…

Again more supposed predicted failures mixed with misreading of character as well as resolve by Bush, which I obviously don’t buy followed by…

Abandoning Iraq to a "civil authority" not yet ready to lead and without the legitimacy of the Iraqi people would probably be a worse course of action in my mind than handing the White House to the less-than-resolved Dems for 4 years.

Your faith in Democrats is beyond me! Man are you struggling, how about reality not wishful thinking. I’ll bet Bush won’t abandon Iraq. I would bet even more that handing it to less-resolved Democrats would be worse.

A Free Iraq will bring about a Free Iran, and others, twice as fast by giving hope to the reformers in those countries. That to me is way bigger than a presidential term. If Bush pushes back the deadline and loses because of it, at least Iraq will have a decent shot. They won't if he takes the easy way out come July 1.

Grant very shallow for one main reason and I quote again Job, “Who is this that darkens counsel by speaking words without knowledge?”

Grant you are counseling a President who has all information angles, perspective, and counsel, a President who has beaten the odds by great or small margins every time. That is what you are betting against. I don’t see it that way. That is why I uniquely tend to stick to character issues (something new to this former Democrat) and not ideological ones concerning this man, because that is where the truth about him can be found. You have ventured far from that. Or maybe you undervalue this, either way a shame.

Posted by: Samuel at February 11, 2004 03:03 PM

I have to hand it to you Samuel, you've got a razor sharp intellect...but just where exactly do you get off calling me wishy-washy?! I've criticized Bush and I've criticized the Democrats, yet I consider myself one (albeit more of an independent one like Totten, now). If being a Democrat but giving the President his due credit from time to time makes me "wishy washy", well that in a nutshell is exactly the ideological thinking that I was getting at earlier...the kind of thinking that frankly scares me.

You rebuke my arguments as if I'm arguing the polar opposite of what you are, as if we were in total partisan disagreement on every issue. That's a shame because I'm hardly a partisan in any sense of the word. Call me wishy washy if you like, but I think for myself.

Furthermore...you attack the arguments I'm making as being fits of rhetorical nothingness because you merely assume that my assumptions are wrong. That offends me. I have assumptions of Dubya, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Neo-Cons, and the collective character of all of the above different from yours yet when my conceptions disagree with yours I'm somehow assuming that "my wisdom exceeds theirs"?! If that be the case then every single one of your appeals to Bush's character and compitence are EVERY BIT AS ARROGANT! You're doing the same exact thing so, please, knock off the holier-than-thou crap. Just let your intellect do the talking. You're a pretty smart guy.

And another thing...sure, they've probably studied an additional thing or two and have more experience than me. Just what exactly does that say, though? ALOT of people know more shit than me on a particular subject matter. I'm sure that David Duke knows a whole hell of alot more about Civil Rights than me. By your logic, that must make him a moral authority on the subject, huh? Better we simply trust David Duke, a man of far more experience and wisdom than you or I, to tell us everything we need to know about civil rights. This is exactly the endpoint of what you're arguing if you think about it.

And lastly...You defend the pork-laden, budget busting, government waste that is the Bush domestic policy train-wreck by arguing that the War on Terror is simply more important to him?! That's a perfect justification for the worst domestic agenda in God knows how many years, isn't it...that domestic problems just doesn't matter when we're fighting terrorists. Try and sell that one to the 44 million Americans without any health insurance or to those who've lost their job to outsourcing here lately.

It's that sort of hubristic thinking and unshakable sense of invulnerability with the American people that just might land Bush on his ass and out of a job come November. And if it does, Bush will only have himself to blame (because God knows the Democrats couldn't beat him on their own).

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 12, 2004 06:16 PM

Bejammon...

Yep, it was Bush's principle that got us into Iraq, toppled an evil dictator, and liberated 20 some million people from the bonds of authoritarian slavery. And I applaud him for this immensely as I was 110% behind the War from the start.

It's yet to be seen, however, if his principle will apply in the coming months. Though I'm hopeful, I have my doubts. I've yet to hear ANY shade of expert or authority on the subject argue that the Iraqis will be even near-ready on July 1. The fact that we're short 2/3 of the Iraqi policemen we had deemed neccessary at this point for a handover of power kind of says it all.

If the guy, against better judgement, goes ahead as scheduled on July 1 it will be for no other reason than for re-election. This point is pretty hard to argue. And if all hell breaks out over there because of it, it will come at the expense of my friends in uniform caught in the crossfire, the Iraqi people, and the hopes of millions throughout the Middle East.

If Bush postpones...I'll vote for him. Point blank. We'll see what happens.

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