February 05, 2004

The Race

Pakistanís military dictator Pervez Musharraf pardoned Abdel Qadeer Khan for selling nuclear weapons secrets to North Korea, Libya, and Iran. The Beeb says there is tremendous public opposition to putting this guy on trial. In Pakistan he is a hero.

If Saddam Hussein still lorded it over Iraq, does anyone think Mr. Khan would have balked at helping him, too?

The Terror War is a race. On the one side we have a veritable axis of hard-line dictatorships trafficking in anti-Western terrorism and genocide weapons. On the other we have the guilt-ridden self-doubting West that slowly and in fits tries to civilize and democratize the unfree corners of the world.

The nuclear genie is out of its bottle. It cannot be put back in. Francis Fukuyama convincingly argues that the expansion of democracy is inevitable, but not on any particular schedule.

Which will spread the farthest and fastest? Liberalism or terror? Democracy or nuclear-armed jihadist regimes?

No one knows. Our intelligence agencies are broken and discredited. And most in the West want to think of sunnier things.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 5, 2004 08:33 PM
Comments

Ah,Pervez Musharraf , the unelected coup-installed leader who won't allow us to cross the border to get Bin Laden who is invited to the White House as an "ally" while they're selling nuke secrets to the highest bidder.

It's almost like they're the Saudis.

Posted by: Oliver Willis at February 5, 2004 09:05 PM

Oliver: It's almost like they're the Saudis.

Yep.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 5, 2004 09:16 PM

Our intelligence agencies are broken and discredited? I wouldn't go quite that far. The problem with intellegence agencies is you rarely see their successes, but you see their failures in spectacular and very public ways.

I'd say they're not nearly as good as they could be, but much better than most people realize. Read George Tenet's speech at Georgetown today.

Posted by: Jason Holliston at February 5, 2004 09:29 PM

Show me your friends, and I'll show you who you are.

Posted by: jack bog at February 5, 2004 10:20 PM

Jack: Show me your friends, and I'll show you who you are.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not our friends. It's a fiction that some people find temporarily convenient.

Britain and Australia are our friends.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 5, 2004 10:58 PM

This is a mess I'm sure many books will be written about so I'll avoid writing one here. I read on one web-site criticism of this Administration for not doing more to undermine Saudi Arabia and “eviscerating their economy” while we could. While no two countries frustrate me more than Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for multitudes of reasons, there is only so much we can do at one time. I said on that particular web-site that I had to believe Bush has Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on his list of countries that must and will change. We can agree or disagree with the President’s order of as well as execution of plan, it is easy to second guess and criticize this, but damn if this President wasn’t dealt a tough hand, I do wish I knew the plan, so I could rest better. I do believe that if anyone understands this it is President Bush…Even gladder my man Al Gore isn’t in there

If Saddam Hussein still lorded it over Iraq, does anyone think Mr. Khan would have balked at helping him, too?

Another rhetorical question with an obvious answer we can put with. Would Khadafi in Libya have…

I would like to add that when the President asks “Does anyone now doubt the word and resolve of the United States?” I wish that were so, I really do. I don’t think the world believes that. I do think they would at least believe this “Does anyone now doubt the word and resolve of the G.W. Bush?” This President has proven a unique change of leadership. I still wonder if the world really believes that much beyond him if our resolve as a nation really changed much at all, or if biding their time would be worth it. Maybe Kerry can win. He is ahead in the polls they say. Me I’d like to see this President win with a huge landslide and pure majority so our “accidental president” becomes a display of conviction and resolve to the world and that first question can use “resolve of the United States” instead of “resolve of the G. W. Bush” and also that those above rhetorical questions might include: Would Iran have…Would North Korea have… Would Syria have… Would Pakistan have… Would Saudi Arabia have…

Posted by: Samuel at February 5, 2004 11:47 PM

Any administration critics willing to stick their necks out and propose an alternative policy towards Musharraf (and the Saudis)?

Should we treat him more like we treat Assad or Qadaffy (although Qadaffy seems like he's working hard for better treatment)?

Should we treat him better and resume sales of military hardware like the F-16s they ordered?

Posted by: John in Tokyo at February 5, 2004 11:54 PM

Michael, fine post. But feel "safe"--if the terrorists DO get a WMD, and do use it, once, in the USA, then the USA response will be devastating to Islam, and to leaders who support terrorism. The Jacksonian attack-dog, unconditional surrender US response will kick in, and we'll "win", quickly, and with huge Islamic/ dictator, but not American, casualties.

The race is to end Islamic dictatorships before the terrorists succeed in getting/ using a WMD against us. So that we can win most morally, even if not most rapidly nor most quickly.

The policy change should be micro-economic, supporting legalized home ownership FOR the poor people, of the places the poor people now live, mostly illegally. More low cost loans/ profit sharing (Islam forbids interest) support for small Islamic businessmen, NOT big World Bank infrastructure boondogle kleptocrat projects. The seduction of American style capitalism has always been its successful wealth production; the world's bureaucratic aid(=corruption) agencies typically support more big gov't, rather than small businessmen.

Local gov't needs to be democratic -- I don't even know about elections for mayor of cities in Pakistan (this is annoying). Certainly Iraq should be voting for mayors, weekly, so as to increase the number of Iraqis who have been voted into some, limited, power.

And free speech, free press -- criticism of the gov't, needs to be a matter on the agenda in every US discussion with foreign leaders.

[Nobody knows what the US response will be if the terrorists just WMD Tel Aviv, first; but Israeli response is likely to be very impressive.]

Posted by: Tom Grey at February 6, 2004 02:12 AM

Not exactly following the thread here, but thanks for mentioning Australia, Michael.
I've read many pieces where Australia doesn't rate at all. We may have sent only 2,000 troops to Iraq, but they played a vital role during the war, and continue to do so now.
Of course, some Australians cringe when we are mentioned in this context. It's almost as though they're expecting 'incoming' at any moment because of it.
But I'm proud of the stance we all took against Saddam, and I think it's incredibly naive of people to think that you can be treated as an ally without acting like one.
If that makes us a bigger terrorist target, so be it. But somehow I think we were already on the list.

Posted by: suzanne at February 6, 2004 02:49 AM

Oliver,

Ah,Pervez Musharraf , the unelected coup-installed leader who won't allow us to cross the border to get Bin Laden who is invited to the White House as an "ally" while they're selling nuke secrets to the highest bidder.

OK, genius. Explain to me how you are going to conduct a military campaign in Afghanistan without access through Pakistian? Maybe you should take a break from your naively cynical adolescent strutting to look at an atlas or globe. And while you're at it, please name a Pakistani leader who would be an improvement over Musharraf - and who would surive more than a day in that nation of raving Islamist psychopaths.

I'm sure when your boy Howard Dean becomes president he'll have all the answers.

Posted by: HA at February 6, 2004 03:26 AM

Samuel,

“Does anyone now doubt the word and resolve of the United States?” I wish that were so, I really do.

As long there is even a remote possibility that Oliver Willis and his ilk can get an appeasing Democratic surrender monkey elected, the world will doubt American resolve. If a Democrat is elected, the nuke seeking thugs and terrorists of the world will run amok unimpeded just as they did under Clinton.

Posted by: HA at February 6, 2004 03:37 AM

Ha,

Cheers! I am obviously in full agreement.

Posted by: Samuel at February 6, 2004 03:58 AM

Broken and discredited? You're been listening to Howard Dean, John Kerry and Wesley Clark for a bit too long.

There is no "intelligence failure" here. There is only a failure of intellectual honesty and political responsibility on the part of those who, despite the mountains of factual evidence, insist that Saddam's Iraq did possess WMD on the eve of the Iraq War.

What we will find, once the commission has done its' work, is that the intelligence community did its' job well given the circumstances, and that the use of that intelligence by the last three administrations was prudent and responsible.

This is not, and never has been about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the CIA. It is about the continuing attempt to discredit the Bush Administration by those who will happily fabricate, distort and lie to achieve the ends denied them at the ballot box.

In the end, the John Kerrys, Wesley Clarks and Howard Deans of the world are going to come off looking foolish over this. Beyond Bush, there is man by the name of Clinton out there, who has a legacy of his own to protect. I seriously doubt he will allow fools like Kerry, Clark and Dean to paint him as either a warmongering liar or a naive stooge without a fight.

As a Republican and a die-hard Bush support, I say bring it on. It will avail those who seek to profit from this fraud absolutely nothing. Just like every other meme they have using in the stead of coherent and responsible policies.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 6, 2004 04:29 AM

"Which will spread the farthest and fastest? Liberalism or terror? Democracy or nuclear-armed jihadist regimes?"

Call me Pollyanna if you will, but given the Terrorists 'strategy' of targeting civilians, often indiscriminately, I think there is an upper limit on what they can accomplish before a backlash occurs.

Democracy may be the best, most egalitarian form of government, but it is not the most efficient. All the debate and elections take time to establish, time to execute, which gives terrorists the window they need to gum up the works.

But freedom is contagious and addicting (and right) so I am confident we will succeed.

Posted by: steve at February 6, 2004 05:43 AM

I don't think the intelligence services are as 'broke' as Mike thinks. As has been pointed out, one generally does not hear of the successes, only the failures. And in respect to the WMD in Iraq, it appears that EVERYBODY on the planet who had an opinion on the subject thought Hussien had the stuff.

That said, Musharraf is in a sticky bind. One one hand, he knows that he has to cooperate with the US, and shutting down nuclear proliferation is something the US wants. OTOH, he's got his own secret service and likely part of the army to deal with. Not to mention the Pashtun's that are harboring bin Laden (if OBL is alive that is--and that's debateable).

Here, he plays both sides--exposes and (one hopes) stops the transfer of technology, but does not punish anyone publically. Privately who knows what's going to happen.

Posted by: eric at February 6, 2004 05:50 AM

Tom Grey expresses well my greatest fear -- that the Islamic militants will get what they want, an attack on the USA that causes mass casualties. The response will be truly terrible, no matter who is in the White House -- the people will demand it. Does the anti-Bush Left not understand the success in the War on Terror is the last best hope for avoiding a cataclysm? Do they not understand that this is the best hope for civilization?

Given the stakes, why do they deliberately try to undermine the war effort? I believe firmly in the need for a "loyal opposition" -- I'm sure there is much to criticize in how Bush is conducting this war. The problem is that the Left has completely failed to "get it." Their criticism is in the nature of a juvenile pout (or scream) rather than serious policy analysis. John in Tokyo makes an excellent point in this regard. I am 100% for President Bush on this issue because I simply cannot trust the Democratic party to act responsibly.

Suzanne, I am another American who greatly appreciates what Australia has done. You get to know who your friends are in times of crisis. Australia has demonstrated that it is such a friend and I, for one, will strongly advocate returning the favor when the opportunity presents itself.

Posted by: Ben at February 6, 2004 06:43 AM

This may work itself out sooner than later. Lots of signs of a coming spring offensive in Afghanistan by the US, which will likely cross over into Pakistan. Allowing this may have been the payoff for the US letting Musharraf and Khan off the hook. (Besides, a talking Khan can give lots of information.)

Interesting times . . .

Posted by: lancer at February 6, 2004 06:49 AM

Explain to me how you are going to conduct a military campaign in Afghanistan without access through Pakistian?
We just do it anyhow, seeing as how we're the most powerful nation on God's green earth. See, and I did it without hurling insults!

Posted by: Oliver at February 6, 2004 07:31 AM

Oliver --

Without access through Pakistan, how do you keep the troops in Afghanistan supplied? You can't just wave a magic wand to do this -- you need seaports (airports aren't good enough because they can't handle the volume of supplies necessary for a large military undertaking).

Posted by: Ben at February 6, 2004 08:09 AM

We just do it anyhow

You've obviously spent a great deal of time studying military history and logistics. Jeepers. And if myou were just being a smartass, we COULD have just nuked the place without needing Pakistan't logistical assistance, that your alternative?

BTW, those of you who haven't read "Charlie Wilson's War" should. Super book.

Posted by: spc67 at February 6, 2004 08:37 AM

Of course, some Australians cringe when we are mentioned in this context. It's almost as though they're expecting 'incoming' at any moment because of it.

This speaks to Liberal FEAR of AQ and islamic militants. The muslim fanatics make Libs go weak at the knees. But their appeasement is futile, because AQ doesn't know the difference between one infidel and the next, or care in the slightest. Stupid Libs are going to get us all killed.

Posted by: David at February 6, 2004 08:46 AM

Michael
"Francis Fukuyama convincingly argues that the expansion of democracy is inevitable, but not on any particular schedule."

I dont think that this is inevitable, I think the spread of democracy to all corners of the world would be the best thing for everyone. But nothing can really be said to be inevitable, it can be possible or probable but not inevitable.

On the rest of your post, what I'd like to know is why Saddam didn't buy nuclear plans and materials from Pakistan? It seems like everyone else has, Libya, Iran and God only knows who else. He had a lot of time to make the deal, he was willing to deal with North Korea, why not Pakistan?

Posted by: sam at February 6, 2004 09:14 AM

Important to know the enemy. Saying "if you're not with us, you're against us" and speculating about whether there is something innately evil about Islam and Western European-style social democracy - which some in this forum are inclined to do - greatly widens the circle of "who our enemies are."

The fact that more people think Bush is a greater threat to world peace than Bin-Laden and those who think he is a heroic figure is sad. We need to engage in dialoge and persuasion with those who hold this view. Giving them the finger accomplishes nothing.

ONE THING THAT MIGHT ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING:
ordering "I'm Changing the Climate" bumperstickers from
http://www.changingtheclimate.com/bumpersticker.html
and going to your local mall and plastering every SUV and other gas guzzler car with them (along with information about how irresponsible their choice of an automobile really is.)

Support a secular jihad against all hypocrites who support Bush foreign policy AND AT THE SAME TIME support his obscene and insane energy policy.

Posted by: markus rose at February 6, 2004 09:47 AM

So, Markus, right after asserting that "Giving them the finger accomplishes nothing" to change the minds of Bin Laden sympathizers, you say you're going to go add a bunch of unwanted bumper stickers to other people's SUVs? It sounds like giving SUV owners the finger does accomplish something--for your own feeling of righteous anger at least. Otherwise, I doubt it will do anything more than piss off the owners.

Posted by: Joel at February 6, 2004 10:07 AM

I wonder how long it is before the fine doctor gets a 9 mm cerebral haemorrage.

Posted by: Anticipatory Retaliation at February 6, 2004 10:15 AM

Joel -- i gotta admit you're right, it wouldn't accomplish anything. I was engaging in the same type of emotion-driven vitriol. I suppose its ok to feel emotion about political questions, but bad to act on it.

I just wish there were more people who supported the war against Iraq and higher CAFE requirements for so-called "light trucks." Who recognize the need for both. Lieberman was strong on both issues, few others are. It would really help our credibility. As it is, desiring to be feared rather than loved, we end up being hated rather than feared.

Posted by: markus rose at February 6, 2004 10:20 AM

Markus,

John Derbyshire at The New Criterion echoed your concerns recently.

Probably anti-Americanism will be with us for a long time yet. This is a shame, because the one thing everyone notices about us Americans is how much we want to be liked. That, at any rate, used to be the thing everyone noticed. I do not think the yearning to be liked has departed from the American psyche yet, but it now finds itself sharing that psyche with some other wishes: principally, the desire that if we cannot be liked, we shall at least be respected. If it should become clear that Americans are to be denied even respect, I think quite a lot of us will settle for being feared. We are not much given to Latin tags nowadays, but there is one that keeps popping up in American newspapers and web sites, and which just this last week I actually saw printed on a T-shirt. The tag is the one Seneca denounced as a “vile, detestable and deadly sentiment,” but which had a steady currency throughout the late-Republican, early-Imperial period of Roman rule: Oderint dum metuant—“Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.” I am with Seneca on this one; I hope things never come to that; but I am bound to say, from talking with and listening to my fellow Americans, that is the direction in which they are heading.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 6, 2004 10:58 AM

Markus --

There is no chance that bin Laden and his ilk will ever love us. In fact, they will always hate us. Given that, I want them to fear us, too.

Posted by: Ben at February 6, 2004 10:59 AM

Ben,

It is good that bin Laden (if he's alive) is afraid of us. Not so good if Belgium is afraid. Although, I do have to add, if Belgium fears us they are paranoid. We are not going to invade them.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 6, 2004 11:18 AM

Michael,

Belgium resents our power and influence. I don't think paranoia is the right word. And fear isn't even the right word except for they fear their own implied irrelevance because of said power and influence. Let's call it a French mentality.

Posted by: Samuel at February 6, 2004 11:36 AM

...if Belgium fears us they are paranoid. We are not going to invade them.

THEY HATE US BECAUSE WE'RE ASCENDANT

"Belgium" doesn't fear us anymore than slogan-mongering Leftists fear the "Patriot Act." It's a smokescreen, this "fear", for RESENTMENT. They resent our ascendancy, and their decline. All the objections of Europe and The Ummah are merely the thrashings of declining civilizations unwilling to accept the fact that such enlightened and highminded peoples such as themselves could ever play second fiddle to a bunch of cowboy christian fundamentalist rubes. No, this won't do.

And here at home, Bush tries to outliberal the Liberals with social welfare budgets that bust the bank hoping to be loved; but he's still resented. He can invite half of the 3rd World across our borders hoping to be loved; but to what end? Only to be hated all the more for being a hypocrite.

The U.S. can out-U.N. the U.N. and they'll still resent us. America can bend over backwards to appease the islamusloids and they'll still despise us--because we are ascendant. And the Europeans resent us not because a few towel heads got killed in Iraq, but because those few died for American empire, not Europe's.

It's useless to care what they think about you. You do what you gotta do, period. And people will either join you or they won't--it's that simple. But at least they'll respect you for having the balls.

Do you think anybody loves the Israelis more because they have a wishy washy policy that drifts in the wind of international opinion, to and fro, without any coherency and purpose? Not at all. It only emboldens their enemies, and the Europeans STILL despise Israel. Bunch of idiots these Israelis.

You do what you gotta do and damn the torpedoes for chrissakes. Pussies.

Posted by: David at February 6, 2004 11:43 AM

david -- as far as "doing what you gotta do" and "damning the torpedos" and not being "pussies" are concerned, do you think we should sharply raise fuel economy standards on light trucks and other gas-guzzling vehicles, or do you think we should continue to depend on massive quantities of Saudi oil? You can't have it both ways.

ben -- bin laden didn't hate us in the eighties. We supported him and he supported us as long as our interests coincided in our efforts against the afghan and russian communists. he wants our troops out of the middle east, jews out of palestine, and a religious theocracies established in "islamic" countries. and he's willing to kill ANYBODY to reach that goal.

michael -- i'll read that article closely.

Posted by: markus rose at February 6, 2004 11:59 AM

Markus,

I'm in favor of doing what is sensible and in our OWN interests--not to have our policies dictated to us by people who hate or resent us. If you favor going solar, that's fine. But if you cite "Osama" as the dominant reason to go solar, then I'm skeptical from the get go. If you cite pleasing the Europeans as a motivating factor which should determine our policies, then again, I'm skeptical.

Regarding Osama not hating us in the "80s". Says who? They had more immediate troubles, true, with the Soviets. But the U.S. has been "the Great Satan" for quite some time now. The U.S. was the great Infidel Seducer long before George Bush.

Posted by: David at February 6, 2004 12:05 PM

Markus,

If your argument was serious you would have added drilling in Anwar along with fuel standards but like every family member of mine save one, your time is spent playing "Lucy" with the political football, get serious.

Posted by: Samuel at February 6, 2004 12:11 PM

"I'm in favor of doing what is sensible and in our OWN interests."

David -- me too, but I define "our" interests more broadly, perhaps, to include the whole goddamn world (or at the very least the secular, democratic world.) That's more than just the good ole' USA. If I was just looking out for the USA, I'd advise us to immediately impose an arms embargo against Israel, get our troops out of the Middle East, and continue to buy oil from whatever tinpot dicatator or thug wants to sell us that fungible commodity. If you want to look out for America First, or America Only, then Pat Buchanan is your man. The struggle against Islamism ought to be a liberal, internationalist, secular struggle against a particular brand of right-wing, religious-based fanaticism.

Posted by: markus rose at February 6, 2004 12:21 PM

Sam -- No I'm interested in all solutions, including non-"PC" or non- liberal ones (including nuclear).

ANWR, however, doesn't produce that much additional oil compared to the barrels saved by higher fuel standards.

Posted by: markus rose at February 6, 2004 12:41 PM

Go nuclear armed democracies!

Posted by: bob at February 6, 2004 01:49 PM

Markus,

Still unserious, there is no risk in drilling in An-War and it would be profitable why the resistance? Are you a prophet and know the reserve holdings? Prudhoe Bay is still producing oil way past its suppose capacity.

Posted by: Samuel at February 6, 2004 01:55 PM

Michael -- point taken about Belgium.

Markus -- There is a middle way between you and Pat Buchanan re the definition of US interests. I know because I'm there.

Posted by: Ben at February 6, 2004 02:30 PM

Samuel -- Its true that ANWR would yield some new oil, as would offshore drilling in California and Florida. I think my resistence is a case of different values thing that we can't be expected to agree upon -- I think it is a spiritually and morally saluatory decision to choose to leave a certain area unspoiled, even though it has a little resource. Kind of akin to not working on the Sabbath, or not auctioning off Central Park to deal with a New York City budget crunch. Also, it is smart to do everything possible to force technological progress in order to make the internal combustion engine obsolete sooner rather than later. We ought not fall behind other countries in this regard.

Posted by: markus rose at February 6, 2004 03:06 PM

Markus: Kind of akin to not working on the Sabbath, or not auctioning off Central Park to deal with a New York City budget crunch.

Well said.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 6, 2004 03:47 PM

Markus and Michael,

An-War is not Central Park! And Michael you are an Atheist arguing for the Sabbath? As if that has anything to do with the deeper issues of compromise I was alluding to. My point was give me An-War and I'll give you fuel standards. Drawing a hard line on either side is foolish especially when I perceive Bush to be the type to make such compromise. Hey I have an idea let’s wait until after 2004 when Bush has 56-57 Republican Senators and get only An-War, and then we all cry foul! Great strategy guys! Take what you can. I was speaking pragmatically not as an advocate of one side or the other. If both sides go all or nothing to what end? I guarantee Bush’s end! That’s all! I'm on your side on this one, but I know the realities we live in.

Posted by: Samuel at February 6, 2004 04:01 PM

Markus,

What's with all the SUV bashing? You lefties should love SUV's. The SUV is a tremendous vehicle - pun intended - for achieving the left's stated domestic and foreign policy goals. Each Suburban and Hummer purchased by some fat cat results in a huge transfer of weatlth from the rich to the working class. The unionized factory workers get high wages, health insurance, pensions - all the stuff you say you want for them. Of course there is a downside. The rich are voluntarily giving up their wealth and the workers actually have to work to earn their wage. It is so much more morally superior to have the government seize the property of the wealthy in the form of taxes and give it to the poor to sit on their asses.

On the foreign policy front, all you nice lefty folks are always talking about how Arab/Muslim terrorists are otherwise noble and peaceful people driven to despair by poverty. Well since the Arab/Muslim societies are dismal failures, they are only capable of exporting oil and terrorism. So if it wasn't for the oil exports feeding our SUV's, they would be even more poverty stricken and - according to lefty logic - would engage in even more terrorism.

So SUV's are good for workers and promote world peace. What's missing for a lefty to love? Buy one today!

Posted by: HA at February 6, 2004 06:42 PM

Markus-

I assume you were trying to funny, but if not...

If I catch you putting a bumper sticker on my ML-430 without permission, your bridgework will undergo substantial change before the environment does.

In these trying times, the last thing any of us needs is a self-appointed Guardian Of All That Is Good of a twit abridging our freedom to pursue happiness as we so choose.

If we had wanted that, we'd have voted Jimma Carter President for Life. Pull your head out and get serious.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 6, 2004 06:45 PM

Markus,

Also, it is smart to do everything possible to force technological progress in order to make the internal combustion engine obsolete sooner rather than later.

One more thing. As if there aren't already enough reasons for you to purchase an SUV, but doing so will hasten the obsolescence of the internal combustion engine. Vehicles that burn 15 instead of 50 miles per gallon will drive up the price of gasoline which makes alternative technology more economically viable. If everybody was driving around in a Geo Metro, the price of gasoline would collapse and alternative technologies would wither on the vine.

So buy an SUV and kill the internal combustion engine! Do it today!

Posted by: HA at February 6, 2004 06:53 PM

Markus,

If I catch you putting anything on my Ford F-150 (with the ecologically unsound extra-long bed), after Dennis takes care of your bridgework? I'll take care of the rest. Your remnants will then be fed to my oversized, intact, and very obedient Mastiffs. That way? You can be one with nature.

Have a nice day!

Posted by: spc67 at February 6, 2004 10:07 PM

Markus is not a knee-jerk leftist by a long shot. I have been reading this blog for a number of months, and he frequently has interesting things to say. I'd characterize him as a moderate Democrat who is more than willing to engage in real debate on ths issues--marginalizing people in the broad center is a bad strategy politcally and otherwise, even if it is a constant temptation in the blogosphere.

Posted by: Daniel Calto at February 7, 2004 09:01 AM

What irritates me is the presumption that my purchase of that ML-430 was due to ignorance or indifference to "the environment". It was neither.

I am a self-employed professional who has worked out a home office for nearly a decade. My ten year rolling average is 9,000 miles per year. I will consume about 560 gallons of gas this year. That will constitute an increase of roughly 150 gallons per year over the Audi 90 I drove prior to purchasing the Benz.

I was well aware that I was increasing my gas consumption, however there were other considerations that dictated the purchase of that Benz, and they are as follows:

1. Aged parents and in-laws. My father has 2 artificial hips and cannot sit in smaller cars comfortably, must less get in and out of them. My father-in-law requires around-the-clock oxygen, which means bottled oxygen (short-term) or use of a large piece of equipment for enriching regular air.
2. Transportation of clients, often more than three at a time. Call it a concession to crony capitalism, but it never hurts to treat your clients to a comfortable and stylish ride.
3. Transportation of equipment, food, clothing and toys for several charitable organizations I support. As more than one of those organizations do not have the funds to purchase vans or trucks, improvisation is the order of the day. The SUV helps get done what they need done without having to waste agency dollars paying out the nose for rentals.
4. Transportation of building materials. You try putting 20 or so 8' lengths of 4" oak baseboard in an Audi 90. Or haul a tiger oak mission desk around in a Honda Civic. I am renovating my house and some antiques just for fun, and I need something large to put large things in.

Bottom line, I didn't just go out and buy an SUV because I couldn't think of anything else to do. Had I been free of all constraints, I would have happily bought a turbocharged, 4 cylinder, 2 seat Audi TT that runs like Hell, doesn't guzzle gas and cost $10K less than the ML-430. But that just wasn't in the cards unless I could get Dad, his wife and my in-laws to agree to being tied to the front and rear fenders before travelling with the wife and I.

As it stands, I don't use any more gas that a Honda Civic owner who drives 18,000 miles a year. Are you going to go out and pester those people about damaging the environment? Or do you just assume that all Civic drivers are well informed, environmentally conscious and socially virtuous?

You see, you'd lose your bridgework not because you put a bumpersticker on the Benz...they are easy enough to get off. You'd lose the bridgework because you're behaving like a fool and a fraud. Putting a bumpersticker on my SUV isn't about the environment, it's about how wonderful you want to be in your own eyes. This is about you stereotyping, of being uninformed, and of being presumptuous.

You want to help the environment? Then help the environment.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 7, 2004 06:53 PM

Crikey! Markus Rose (hypothetically) slaps a sticker on your oversized vehicle and you, DennisThePeasant and spc67, respond (hypothetically) by assaulting him, leaving him with permanent injuries or just plain dead?
Fools and frauds indeed!
(But maybe you were just 'trying to be funny'.)

Posted by: suzanne at February 8, 2004 01:25 AM

Suzanne-

I haven't assaulted anyone, hypothetically or otherwise.

What I have done is given Markus a very clear warning about what consequences will flow from his actions, and a detailed explanation of my feelings as to why his actions are not acceptable.

That constitutes civilized behavior at its' most refined.

It's probably best to understand the risks you run when you start accusing people you don't know of thoughtless sociopathic behavior while defacing their property.

Next time, focus on the facts rather than the hypotheticals of the hypotheticals.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 8, 2004 08:24 AM

Suzanne,

What Dennis said.

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Dennis the Peasant -- "You want to help the environment? Then help the environment."

Yes, I do want to help the environment.

I also want to make it more difficult for you to harm the environment, by taxing your gas a little more and penalizing you in other ways for purchasing decisions that I think are stupid, unpatriotic and antisocial. I try to do this democratically, by lobbying for legislation, and persuasively, by attempting to build public support for the demonization and ostracization of you and others who hold your views. I recognize that affixing a sticker on your vehicle is crossing the line, and I raise that possibility only in jest, though I realistically reserve the right to express contempt in the form of a handout, designed to look like a parking ticket, under your windshield wiper.

I also want to make it easier for you NOT to destroy the environment, and to accomodate the legitimate needs of your parents and in-laws while doing so, and your own personal needs and desires as well, by MANDATING that US automakers build light trucks and SUV's with greater fuel efficiency. If such a mandate existed, you and others would have likely been able to have purchased hybrid gas-electric SUV's getting 35-40 MPG, which are just now being introduced, several years ago. (Having said that, mini-vans are both safer and more efficient, and if you want to know why you should read High and Mighty -- SUV's: the World's Most Dangerous Vehicles and How They Got That Way" by Keith Bradsher, or at least a review of the book here:
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2002/10/24/suvs/index_np.html).

I know -- I'm trying to take away your freedom to piss in the river that everyone else also has to use...sorry about that.

HA --
Those union workers making SUV's, could and should be making the same money (or more) by producing hybrid gas-electric SUV's. And the oil that the Arabs, Iranians, Nigerians, Venezuealans and other countries produce engenders corruption and only slightly helps the masses of people in those countries. Reducing world oil consumption will force their economies to diversify which will be a good thing in the long- and not-so-long term.

Posted by: Markus Rose at February 8, 2004 04:20 PM

The point is the mandate does not exist, and the hybrid is not available.

I have to deal with reality in the here and now. Your lecture provides me with no meaningful information or realistic alternatives to my choosen course.

The purchase of any of the mini-vans I looked at would have saved the Earth far less than 100 gallons a year over what I purchased, which does not constitute a meaningful increase in pollution on my part.

Your post simply reinforces the impression that this is more about your ego than it is about the environment.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 8, 2004 08:06 PM

DennisThePeasant and spc67: Did I use the wrong word? If so, silly me. But whatever you want to call it, your reaction to Markus Rose was extreme and unecessary.
What on earth is civilised about "If I catch you putting a bumper sticker on my ML-430 without permission, your bridgework will undergo substantial damage..."?
The least you can do is own up to your little passive/aggressive tirades.

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