February 04, 2004

Dissing the Homeless

Jonah Goldberg isnt too impressed with political independents.

Their shtick goes something like this:
Theres that word again. Its the shtick shtick.
"I'm an independent-minded guy (or gal), I don't let the parties do my thinking for me. I choose each individual candidate based on his or her individual merits. I am a very discerning and thoughtful person." If you've ever listened to C-SPAN, you've heard from these people. They sound like midlevel college administrators with chips on their shoulders. They don't want to be pigeon-holed, cookie-cut, "defined" by "mere labels" that don't take into account their discerning eye for the odd policy detail. "Did you know that candidate so-and-so doesn't have a policy on saving the manatees? Or didn't you do your homework?" They brag about how they look at every issue without ideological blinders on, and how they'll be damned if they are going to vote for a candidate merely because of "partisanship." They want to hear about issues and experience.

Lee Harris answers him in Tech Central Station.

Someone has to change his mind. Someone has to say, now and then, My heavens, I voted for the wrong man; I am sorry that I did.

The team player cannot change his mind, because his mind is the collective mind of the team, and he obeys it. He obeys it the way a good football player obeys his coach -- because this is what he must do in order to be a member in good standing of his team. You cannot remain on the team, and cheer for your team's opponents.

This is a good answer, but it isn't the whole story. Both writers seem to forget something that ought to be obvious. Some people are independent not because they changed their mind, not because theyre uninformed, and not because theyre looking for a shtick. Some people really are just, well, independent.

For me its real simple. In some ways I like the Democrats. And in other ways I like the Republicans. If that makes me weird, then I guess I'm just weird.

The 21st Century is the most complicated time in the known history of the world. We have the same eternal problems, plus a host of brand new ones. Globalization and technology are making the world one place. Riyadh is in New Yorks backyard. And vice versa. New technologies present new dilemmas unthinkable in the past. Revolutions in media and publishing encourage more diversity of information and opinion than was ever possible before. Our binary political system cant possibly accommodate every view of the world. A third party could hardly do any better. Even our two major parties are riven by factions.

The Democrats are a testy coalition of greens, labor unions, welfare statists, neoliberals, academics, secular humanists, racial and ethnic minority advocates, technocrats, and left-libertarians. The Republicans try to staple together right-libertarians, traditionalists, religious fundamentalists, neoconservative interventionists, and paleoconservative isolationists. Party-mindedness is often awkward or even fraudulent because each party can be split into several. If the US had a parliamentary system, thats exactly what would happen. Many independents could then find a home.

On some days I think of myself as a right-wing liberal. On other days Im a left-wing neoconservative. Thats not a contradiction. I like Hillary Clinton and John McCain in equal measure for different reasons.

If Jonah Goldberg thinks thats a shtick, Id just like to ask him which party Im supposed to belong to. I suppose I could re-learn to take one for the team. But for which one?


UPDATE: Jason Holliston, an independent of a different sort, agrees.

How can I be a Republican if I'm for gay marriage? How can I be a Democrat if I'm for the tax cuts that recently went through? How can I be a Libertarian if I understand that public funding for schools and police is the moral and right thing to do?

I can't -- at least, I can't if I don't want to be a liar.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 4, 2004 10:56 PM
Comments

What Michael said.

Posted by: FH at February 4, 2004 11:31 PM

I was asking myself the other day whether or not it was possible to be a liberal neo-conservative. I think my final conclusion was that it is.

Modern-day neocons are the descendants of yesterday's "Cold Warriors". Cold Warriors stood on both sides of the aisle, some were liberal and some were conservative, but all were united in hawkishly opposing Soviet Communism.

Liberal Cold Warriors opposed Soviet Communism because it entailed a gross violation of human rights. Conservative Cold Warriors opposed Soviet Communism because it stood in the way of American global dominance.

I guess today you could say we're witnessing the birth of the NeoCon Terror Warriors, again on both sides of the aisle.

Liberal NeoCons, following in the footsteps of Scoop Jackson, are essentially out to save the world and the world's people through the influence and spread of liberal democracy.

Conservative NeoCons, on the other hand, are essentially out to pave the way towards a more American-friendly form of globalization. Dominance in economic form, you could say.

Modern "liberal hawks" are truly liberal neocons in this regard, and on foreign policy now arguably reside in the Center-Right area of the spectrum...on foreign policy, at least, undeniably.

It's a pretty debatable theory, but if you're a liberal hawk you've got to admit it makes some sense. Our vision of foreign policy has more in common with the vision of Paul Wolfowitz than it does anyone on the Left. It's a hard fact to face for alot of us but Bush is more or less right on this one where the Democrats are feckless.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 5, 2004 12:58 AM

PS...

Which type of NeoCon is the President, liberal or conservative? I think we'll have the answer to that one sooner than later...

Like on July 1.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 5, 2004 01:02 AM

Michael, you're with Jonah in missing the main point -- various issues have different weights.
Consider the expression 10x - 1y > 0x + 5y.
x is YOUR most important issue, y is all the other issues. One party is better on the most important issue, and may or may not be better on all other issues.
This year, the War on Terror is, by far issue X. You've repeatedly said the Dems are bad on it. Even if on all other issues, Y, they're better, they're not enough better. Obviously, how much more important is your subjective call: whether it's 10 or 6 or 5 (your weights) can change.

For a long time, issue X has been abortion for serious anti-abortion and pro-abortion groups. What is new since 9/11 is the WoT -- whether more UN "international law" type diplo talk would keep US citizens safe or whether military action was needed in Iraq.

Consider just the four cases: (PP) pro-war, pro-abortion; (PA) pro-war, anti-abortion; (AP)anti-war, pro-abortion; (AA) anti-war, anti-abortion.

In a two party system, you can't easily accommodate even two "important" issues -- there is little AA (though the Pope would be close; Pat Buchannan?), since the Dem purity police require pro-abortion (no xA). The Dem primaries purified it of PP; they are the AP anti-war, pro-abortion group. The Reps will try to be OK for the rest -- Arnie is PP in CA, though Bush is PA.

Please consider a more complete comment on Jonah's list of other issues:
"The Democratic party at the national level is, generally speaking, pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, pro-welfare state (yes, yes, I know the GOP is inching closer to the Dems on this one), pro-gun control, anti-death penalty (with some clever exceptions), and quite comfortable with high taxes and strict regulations. Culturally, it is more apt to celebrate multiculturalism over assimilation and gay pride over tolerance for gays. When leftists hector a Democratic president he will, in all likelihood, listen intently rather than yawn. And, most important, on foreign policy Democrats will stress the importance of words and international law over action and American sovereignty. The war on terror will be seen more like a law-enforcement issue than, well, a war. ...
The Republican party sees things largely in reverse."

I think you're a Dem who understands the War. And, therefore, currently seem to be independent.
(And a really fine writer).

Posted by: Tom Grey at February 5, 2004 01:10 AM

Totten is...

Center/Right on Defense
Center/Left on Economics
Center/Left on Values

...and a damn fine writer?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 5, 2004 01:19 AM

But you did not mention Goldberg's second catagory of "Undecided Independents"

And now...the rest of the story,

After every presidential debate of the general election, there's a focus group filled with undecideds; they're treated like Olympic judges rather than astoundingly uninformed citizens. They complain that they didn't get enough information from the candidates, or they didn't get enough "details" on this or that policy.

Here's how one undecided explained her thinking in 2000 to the Boston Globe: "One day I'm for Gore (her mother called from California to say he'd protect the environment), the next day it's Bush (she thinks he's funny). . . . If I had to go out to dinner with one of them, I'd choose Bush. . . . But here's what goes through my mind. Let's say a meteorite was coming toward Earth. Who has the better judgment?... I wish I could decide.'"

Most of the people I know (in my blue collar world) discuss the most important choice they make every four years in similar fashion. Maybe universal sufferage isn't such a good idea..

Posted by: Citizen Dave at February 5, 2004 05:38 AM

From the Boston Globe Quote in the Goldberg article"

"One day I'm for Gore (her mother called from California to say he'd protect the environment), the next day it's Bush (she thinks he's funny). . . . If I had to go out to dinner with one of them, I'd choose Bush. . . . But here's what goes through my mind. Let's say a meteorite was coming toward Earth. Who has the better judgment?... I wish I could decide.'"

This is a good example of a "Straw-Man attack". That is to define the enemy in your terms then attack the definition. The woman who made this quote is not an independant - she's a nitwit.

Posted by: Joe at February 5, 2004 06:07 AM

That's true, Joe, but either there are alot of nitwits out there or someone goes out of their way to find them for focus groups and man on the street interviews.

Posted by: Karen at February 5, 2004 06:38 AM

I consider myself to be fairly right-leaning while socially more liberal, and I woudl generally favor a Republcian over a Demcorat in most eelctions, juts by looking at views, though I'm the kind fo guy that wants to never vote a straight party ticket. In Louisiana its easy since my Congressmna in Bill Jefferson and only a Democrat coudl run against him. My Senator is John Breaux (D) and I'll vote fo him as he's godo enough, though if he retires and Vitter ® runs, he's got my vote, esecially since we went to the same HS, and I like him perosnally.

MT> May I ask who your Congressman is. I'm going to guess Blumenaur, as I think his district is dubbed Little San Francisco, which I think you descibed Portalnd in that way, too. I do admit that I was surprised to see Gordon Smith re-elected since he struck me as too conservative for Oregon, but you paint a different picture of the state.

Posted by: Green Baron at February 5, 2004 06:45 AM

There are plenty of nitwits among Democrats and Republicans as well. Independents don't corner the market on them. In fact I would hazard to guess that Dems, Republicans, and Independents each have well-informed voters, reasonably well-informed voters, and clueless voters in roughly similar proportions.

I've never registered with either party because neither of them is a comfortable fit for me. I'm socially liberal in some aspects, libertarian in others, fiscally conservative, and hawkish on national defense. I see no reason to swear allegiance to either party since my vote will change from election to election depending on the dominant issues of the time and the candidate running. During the Cold War I voted for Reagan. After the Berlin Wall fell and domestic issues became more central I voted for Clinton twice and Gore in the last election. Now, after 9/11, national security trumps all and I'll vote for Bush. By 2008 I might be willing to vote for a Democrat again depending on what happens between now and then.

Posted by: Randal Robinson at February 5, 2004 07:13 AM

Grant - I agree with your analysis for the most part, but I think you're falling into the trap of reducing right-neocons to the cartoon of seeking global domination. To the extent that we seek to maintain American dominance, it is not for the sake of power, but because, frankly, we don't trust anyone else to use their power responsibly.

Posted by: Independant George at February 5, 2004 07:14 AM

Michael - the problem I have with a parliamentary system is that while centrist independants would find a home, so would the left and right wing fringe. Either a center left-right alliance is formed, which is de facto one-party rule (my concern being stagnation and corruption, not a police state), or the extremes are given even more power than they have today. For all its headaches, being a nomad isn't the worst thing in the world.

Posted by: Independant George at February 5, 2004 07:18 AM

That's all good and well that you like both sides, but every four years you have to pick a side. It's as simple as that.

Pick the side that is most in touch with the current political realities. In this case, terrorism and national security.

Current realities will change from one election to the next, in which case you pick accordingly. Maybe next election you can vote for Hilary.

Posted by: David at February 5, 2004 07:28 AM

Having read more than enough of Goldberg for my taste, I have the funniest feeling that if you did get an answer from him, it would be "The Party of Jonah".

However, the process isn't the issue, the result is the issue. There is no inherent virtue to thinking either inside of outside of the box. Nor is there any inherent virtue in attaching oneself to one party on every issue. Virtue attaches itself only if the result is, in this case, political positions taken thoughtfully and responsibly.

I don't understand your defensiveness on the party identification issue. Having an unusually supple intellect is nothing to apologize about.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 5, 2004 08:35 AM

Green Baron,

Yes, my rep is Blumenaur. And his district is "Little San Francisco," although I rarely hear it called that here.

Gordon Smith is a senator because he is a liberal Republican. He is reasonable, not really all that conservative. Moderate Democrats don't mind him.

Oregon is a funny place. It isn't really liberal or conservative overall. Portland is very left, but the rural parts of the state are quite conservative. Half the population lives in Portland, and the other half lives in small towns, small cities, or the sticks.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 5, 2004 08:51 AM

"How can I be a Republican if I'm for gay marriage? How can I be a Democrat if I'm for the tax cuts that recently went through? How can I be a Libertarian if I understand that public funding for schools and police is the moral and right thing to do?"

Apparently these are rhetorical questions, but answers are available to them.

You appeal to the core values of the traditions of which you are a part, after winning the trust of those who have joined you in working together toward those values. Winning this trust often requires the commitment of time, talent, and energy involved with working within a party.

So if you lean Republican but favor gay marriage (many do, and more every day!) get involved in the Republican Party and appeal to how marriage tend to make people less self-centered (in Repub speak it "cultivates family values").

If you lean Democrat but support tax cuts, get involved in the Dem party and appeal to how income taxes impede social mobility for the historically disenfranchised.

Um, and Libertarians already support public funding for education (just not state control over where such funding should go) and police. No conflict there!

Or, if you're like me and are primarily concerned with making sure the system as a whole functions well, stay independent, just don't pretend that's the only position with integrity.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at February 5, 2004 10:57 AM

AS faulty as the two-party system may be, it is vastly superior in execution to that of the parliamentary system. Witness the governments across Europe and in Israel. They have even worse trouble than ours does making the right decisions for the people of their respective countries.

Posted by: Glenn at February 5, 2004 01:02 PM

AS faulty as the two-party system may be, it is vastly superior in execution to that of the parliamentary system. Witness the governments across Europe and in Israel. They have even worse trouble than ours does making the right decisions for the people of their respective countries.

Posted by: Glenn at February 5, 2004 01:04 PM

I recently de-registered as a Democrat and declined to affiliate with a party, which makes me an Independent.

On social issues, I tend to be libertarian (but not always; I'm a gay man who sympathizes with those who fear that untying marriage from gender will have bad consequences down the road); on economics, I'd prefer small-government capitalism; on foreign policy, I'm a hawkish neocon (but really in my heart of hearts am an isolationist who would happily let the rest of the world do its thing if it didn't affect us so much...). Which party would have me?!

On an emotional level where tons of politics actually lives, of course; the "factual" arguments are often post-factual I loathe rightwing theocrats and I loathe leftwing victimists. So I wander around the center, but will very likely vote for Dubya. 'Cause the war on Muslim Terrorism (calling it by its right name) is my Number One issue. His spendthrifty ways make me crazy. And, to be honest, as a recent ex-Dem, I'm most sensitive to the ways in which they make me feel like I don't belong.

So, what's the point of this ramble? Maybe Jonah's right? Or maybe that's just the way I am and godaammit this is America, so just deal with it. Have a nice day!

Posted by: Stephen at February 5, 2004 01:54 PM

I think the original premise of the article was that saying one is independent can be a way of assuming superiority over those who identify with political parties, even though the self-proclaimed independent might simply be an ignoramus. Goldberg adds that independent thought is all well and good so long as it isn't a pose. The flaw in the article is that he doesn't see how one can be independent in a presidential election. There are many reasons why one could flip-flop between the parties at the presidential level, such as the aforementioned weighting of the issues. I'm giving the War on Terror a weight of about 90% this time around, as are many who disagree with me completely re the War on Terror (Deaniacs, for example). Unless the candidates have essentially the same position on this issue, the other issues don't come into play for me.

Posted by: Peter G at February 5, 2004 01:57 PM

What is with this angst over identity and affiliation? Are you all so young as to think this is something that has just popped up? Are you all to young to remember the '80s?

At the height of the Reagan Revolution, at the peak of influence of the Moral Majority and the Christian Right, there was P.J. O'Rourke inventing the South Park Republican...and he did so with a cigarette in his mouth, a drink in one hand and some naughty bits of a loose woman in the other. Did he get hounded out of the party?

Hell, I've been a Republican for over 20 years. Voted Carter in '76 and '80, saw the light of St. Ronald in '81 and have never looked back. But did I buy into the whole stereotypical package? Given that I'm pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-legalized marijuana (none of this medical pot B.S., either) and totally indifferent to gay marriage, I would have to say not.

For some reason, probably lack of contact, leftists and liberals seem to think that every Republican goosesteps to the mantras of Limbaugh, Falwell and the Wall Street Journal's Op-Ed page or gets drummed out of the country club and cut off from all the insider stock tips. It doesn't work that way, and never has.

Now that you're losing faith in the Democratic Party, you seem to be projecting the kind of treatment you imagine Republicans dish out to heretics as being applied to you. Maybe the Democratic Party deals with diversity differently than we do. I dunno. But I see no particular need for defensiveness because you do not tow the party line on every issue.

And as for Holliston's argument, all I can say is that Democracy is a complex thing in a society of 293 million opinions on everything under the sun. I'm not sure doctrinaire consistency is either necessary or desired in such an environment. Democracy is a messy business at best.

As a citizen, you duty is to take politics seriously and arrive at your positions responsibly. Nothing more. The Founding Fathers didn't say anything about being consistent, and there was a reason they didn't. They were eminently practical men with big problems to solve...doctrinaire consistency does not lend itself to getting work done either quickly or well.

Grab a drink, a lady or a cigarette, kick back, lighten up and stop worrying about what Terry McAuliffe, Noam Chomsky or Michael Moore might not approve of.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at February 5, 2004 05:04 PM

Michael, I hope it't not too late for you to see this.

The thing is, our system is designed for long-term participation with one party.

For the most active (and influential) citizens, the election starts long before it hits the papers. These people volunteer, lick stamps, make phone calls, write fundraising letters, contribute to campaigns. The most active (and, again, influential) recruit others who feel as they do.

As the primary rolls around, they go to their party's primary and vote. They go to their state convention. They help shape their party's ideological and personal makeup for the year.

Then, another bout of activism, this time with many more people because your whole party is united, and because many people only show up now.

Then comes the election.

Millions of Americans hold very strong, specific beliefs about how our system should be governed, but only show up at the very end of the process to vote. If you're really an independent, here's when you show up.

If you really feel like the party closer to your overall ideology is that far gone, then by all means vote (or don't vote) your conscience. But then go and VOLUNTEER. Start now, but keep going, especially in the off years. Pick a state assemblyman or senator whose views and ability you respect, and join her organization. Help her get to the point where she can have influence.

Sound hard, and long? Absolutely. But there are reasons: Moving a democracy designed for stability takes a long time. There are 300 million Americans, and somewhere there's someone just as active as you, pushing against you. This is where fringe groups get their power.

The battle starts at the local and state level. Not many people are committed to doing this much, but if you're serious, your talent is sorely needed. You'll find Republicans and Democrats who agree with you. Now you just have to pick. Not even a party, a person. The ballot box should be the climax of your commitment.

Posted by: Rob at February 6, 2004 06:23 AM

But you've never voted for a Republican. How can you say you like Democrats and Republicans? It's like saying you like blacks, but avoid them every chance you get.

Posted by: JJ Walker at February 7, 2004 10:08 AM

But you've never voted for a Republican. How can you say you like Democrats and Republicans?

I moved to the middle after the last election. Besides, I did vote for a Republican representative once.

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Posted by: Replica Watches at March 19, 2007 04:06 AM

As an expert in the replica watch business, I highly recommend this site: www.imitation-watch.com!

The company website displays high quality photos of all replica watch
brands, including: 

Chopard

Panerai

Vacheron Constantin

Audemars Piguet

Bvlgari

Omega

Tag Heuer

Breitling

Jacob and Co,

 IWC

A Lange & Sohne

Hermes,

 Cartier

Their staff has extensive knowledge of the watch lines available and provides fast shipping and professional customer support.

Visit their website at www.imitation-watch.com
for more information!

Posted by: Replica Watches at March 19, 2007 04:09 AM
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