Great article. That's one Liberal with his eyes wide open. But, if all that good stuff makes you a "neocon" in the eyes of the Left, then what of it?

I've assumed that title, placed on me by others, and worn it with pride. After all, it's the neocons who are antifascists, not the Left.

Michael,

You can just read my rant at Rogers site, I'll spare that one here. But I appreciate you posting it here as well it must be discussed even if some so-called "liberals" still want to dismiss it. (which I feel truly disqualifies them as liberals but hey that's my opinion) My definition of a true liberal is ironically called neo-conservative, because they take the best alternatives from both sides Neo-Liberalism + Wilsonian foreign policy, and basically say hey, if it's good enough for us it's good enough for them… maybe these leftist-liberals feel that our system is bad, causes the world's problems, and we shouldn't export such evil ideas as a free market anyway, unfortunately I wish it was only hatred of Bush or Reagan etc., but I believe my bold italicized statement sadly applies to many of them.

Berman in short: leftists oppose the liberation of Iraq because they hate rich, white, conservative men, have contempt for brown people, are disgusted with America, and are anti-semitic.

Why is Berman entitled to psychologize? Because the actual arguments given by leftists against the liberation have already been shown to be worth zilch. Those crummy arguments cannot be why leftists oppose the war; they're not stupid. There must be other, extra-logical motives for their opposition to it. Berman proposes four.

Well, for a Marxist, Berman makes a surprising amount of sense. One of the many things which has propelled my migration from left to right over the last few years is the truly mind-numbing combination of moralism and nihilism that describes most left/liberals I know. I live in San Francisco, so I know a lot! On the one hand, they are dedicated to high-minded egalitarian values but in defense of those values are willing to support, defend or ignore the crimes of men and movements which regularly and utterly betray those same values. I couldn't stand the headache anymore, so I became a reluctant conservative. As the previous writer said, what trumps all the good-guy lingo is hatred of the civilization whose success belies the ideology of the left: America. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And I will believe that George Bush is a fascist the day that Noam Chomsky goes to jail.

...mind-numbing combination of moralism and nihilism.

You've witnessed the incoherent core of Marx in action, Stephen. According to Marx, all moral values are a ruse concocted by economic forces in order for the ruling class to maintain power. Also according to Marx, communism is morally better, even though it is just another ruse maintained by an economic force. Mind-numbingly incoherent indeed.

You know what?...Paul Berman is ABSOLUTELY right. The Democratic Party lost their way, abandoned their principles, abandoned liberalism for squishy moral relativism, and lost their will to fight somewhere in the jungles of Vietnam.

TRAITOR is a strong word, but wholly acurate in the correct context. The post-Vietnam Democratic Party Establishment did abandon their principles and did abandon liberalism in the process. They're indeed traitors to liberalism abroad, but not traitors to their country.

On a side note...I'm really getting sick and tired of being a Man Without A Party.

If I vote for Bush, I'll have to hold my nose to do it. His domestic agenda (cultural and economic) frankly disgusts me.

If I vote for the Democrat, I'll have to hold my nose to do it as well. Today's Democrats share more foreign-policy-ground with Pat Buchanan when it comes to interventionism.

Do I vote domestic policy or do I vote foreign policy? Kiss goodbye Civil Unions, a Woman's Right to Choose, and Responsible Fiscal Policy or stomach cowardice in the War on Terror.

This really f***ing blows.

wow. Berman is a brave man.

I appreciate Berman. And I appreciate the values he holds dear. I very much appreciate that he opposes fascism and especially the dictatorships in the Middle East. I agree, to the core, that Hussein's regime needed to be taken out. Now that it's done, I'm quite pleased. He does a good, self-righteous rant.

But I also feel that wars are serious business and the manner in which they're prosecuted has consequences. After WW I, Wilsonian idealism swept through Europe ... but amounted to nothing. The rest of the world's leaders paid it lipservice and then did whatever they wanted. In the end, the United Kingdom couldn't manage to set up liberal governments in the Middle East and couldn't guarantee any sort of peace. Ultimately, these failures produced the situations we have today.

Berman speaks with great eloquence about opposing fascism, but unfortunately his is not the voice of the administration. That voice is embodied in the National Security Strategy of the U.S., in the payoffs to other fascist states, in the spying on U.N. members, in the low troops levels, in deteriorating peace in Afghanistan, in the cowboy diplomacy that alienated Europe, and in the arrogant refusal to, heretofore, let the U.N. into Iraq. We cannot, we should not promote liberal democracy through illiberal means.

Berman is fond of stark choices that have easy oucomes: either Hussein stays and the terror continues or he goes and the terror stops. If it was so easy! I see Hussein gone, but I see Karimov, Musharraf, and Ghadfi unthreatened. We're bumbling towards democracy in Iraq, but even the CIA thinks a civil war could erupt. The Afghanis wrote a new constitution, but warloads may have been bribed to get it passed.

This is, simply, no way to win the victories for the liberty both Berman and I want. If we only rule by force, we'll only achieve change by force. And no matter how big we are, we won't be big enough.

It seems little bizarre to accuse actual war heroes like Clark and Kerry of "cowardice in the War on Terror", as Mr. McEntire does.

Berman wrote a great article criticizing leftists. But I note that never once in the article did he use the word "terrorism."

Let me clear up the historical analogy: At the close of WW I, President Wilson took to the world his message of self-determination. Given the impressive welcome he received when he arrived in Europe, the Allies felt they had to at least pay llip service to his ideas. But behind his back, British Prime Minister Lloyd George and, to a lesser extent, the French, Italians, and Greeks went a head and carved up the Middle East exactly how they pleased.

Well, Berman may be our 21th century Wilson. We want to believe that Bush and Co. are following his noble calls. But in the end, I fear that Bush is just another Lloyd George -- happy to use Berman's language when it suits him, but uncommitted to the goals that will make this worthwhile.

(If you want to take the analogy further, the neocons obsession with Chalabi looks an awful lot like the British obsession with Feisal Hussein, the British installed King of Iraq.)

"Berman wrote a great article criticizing leftists. But I note that never once in the article did he use the word 'terrorism.'"

Blink.

Is Oberon so unaware of Paul Berman to be unaware of his great book, Terror And Liberalism?

I have a link to the major essay he expanded into that book on the upper left sidebar on my blog.

Harry, I don't think there's much neo-con obsession with Chalabi over the last 4 months -- have links? Bush seems determined to do better than Wilson -- even it means not giving UN veto holding, oil-deciding corrupt France the "permission slip" power its corrupt leaders crave.

If you, harry, are unwilling to criticize the Left for opposing Berman's language, it's almost hypocritical to complain about Bush not following through. Bush stated, like a leader, that the US had been wrong in supporting dictators for 60 years.

Now the liberals can try to hold him to account and follow this, or oppose him -- the Left is opposing him, making follow through less likely. The Angry Left, like in their implicit support of Saddam, is against Bush forcing regime change on other dictators.

So complain about the payouts, not the Iraq regime change!

Tom Grey: So complain about the payouts, not the Iraq regime change!

Good advice, I'd say.

Oh lord I complain about the payouts. Gosh knows I'm whinning about it all over Totten's comments, my won blog, and the rest of my small little circle. The Iraq war is fait accompli at this point and I'm quite glad Hussein is gone. Can't say I really disagree with your point on face.

But that's not really what Berman is talking about. He's critisizing the left for opposing the war and I'm trying to explain why Berman isn't really grasping our opposition. I don't oppose and didn't oppose toppling Hussein. But the whole Bush method of going about it stinks from start to finish. Paying off Karimov didn't happen in a vaccum -- it's a small portion of a big picture. And it's a picture that seems to show every wrong way imaginable about building international legitimacy for regime change, about rebuilding fallen governments, and about setting a consensus for removing dangerous despots. We had a great opportunity to remake the world into our image. We're leaders, we could have rallied the troops. Instead, our only option is to rule by the sword.

As for critisizing the left, when I've got people like Berman insinuating that we're racists and anti-Semites for holding policy positions, I think that job has been sufficiently covered.

Harry,

I think the reason I'm not totally with you on this is because I don't think the leaders of other countries are as well meaning as you yourself are. Especially the likes of Karimov.

Heck, there are reports now that Saddam bribed Chirac. I don't know if that's true or how reliable that information is, and so I don't want to make a big thing out of that just yet. But I won't be overly shocked if it is true. And, either way, Chirac's government didn't stab us in the front just because Bush was supposedly rude to them. They had their own reasons for opposing us, and I doubt very seriously that a man like, say, John Kerry, would have been able to get them on board. France is pretty upfront about the fact that it opposes American foreign policy because we're the superpower, not because they think our foreign policy is wrong.

It turns out that England's George Galloway also received such bribes in the forms of vouchers for oil sold in the food for oil program. Surprised?

Also, I learned today that Mr. Galloway is a relative of Yasser Arafat (a second nephew I believe). But I'm sure he and his ilk stand purely on principle right?

Wait Michael, wouldn't the French work with Kerry? Didn't someone point out that he looks French?

Ahh, my bad jokes.

I don't know about this bribery stuff. Far too early to tell. If so, really, really messed up. But, does it mean Hussein offered France cheap oil? Or is it even more insidious? If true, Chirac should be thrown out...

Look, I can't say for sure that France would have jumped on board if we'd pushed for a new, redefined international consensus on addressing human rights, terrorism, and WMDs after 9/11. I'm reasonably confident that we could have signed up enough other countries to make france look pretty bad if they didn't. As this Foreign Affairs article points out in a few places, the EU and the G-8 weren't necessarily opposed to military action to stem the flow of WMDs.

To me, the tragedy is that we didn't try. We didn't even contain our contempt. The cost has been our legitimacy -- which wouldn't have suffered nearly as much even if we'd tried and failed. (And no, I'm not talking about our efforts to push a force resolution through the security council on a few months notice -- I'm talking about an honest effort to create a new international world order to deal with the new threats 9/11 made evident.)

Harry: I'm talking about an honest effort to create a new international world order to deal with the new threats 9/11

Do you think the Democrats will do this? It seems to me that most of them don't even take this subject seriously. I don't get that impression from you, but I do from the majority. At least right now.

The choice in March 2003 was thus:

Invade Iraq without UN approval.

OR

Don't invade Iraq.

Anyone who thinks we could have persuaded France to support the invasion FOR ANY REASON is fooling himself. Two centuries after Napoleon, the French still have dreams of superpowerdom and resent the US mightily because we have the cultural, military, and economic power they do not.

This is their right, but one should always expect them to adopt the anti-American position on any truly important matter. It has nothing to do with the facts.

Michael: man, I hope so.

The Foreign Policy homepage some stuff you might enjoy checking out. I haven't gotten through much of it yet, but has info on who's advising who on foreign policy and a some short policy statements from Kerry, Edwards, Gep, and, uh, I think Lieberman.

"Berman wrote a great article criticizing leftists. But I note that never once in the article did he use the word 'terrorism.'"

Blink.

Is Oberon so unaware of Paul Berman to be unaware of his great book, Terror And Liberalism?

Yes, I read it. And I think it's quite interesting that the author of Terror and Liberalism didn't mention terrorism in this article.

"Look, I can't say for sure that France would have jumped on board if we'd pushed for a new, redefined international consensus on addressing human rights, terrorism, and WMDs after 9/11."

If "we" includes Tony Blair, and thank God it did, "we" pushed for exactly this. And a great many nations signed on. I know its the job of a loyal opposition to offer alternative policies where warranted, but jeez louise, you're allowed to pick your spots.

I expect any day now to discover that the left heard that Bush breathes so they decided to collectively hold their breath, thus cutting off all oxygen to their brains.

No, Berman did not mention terrorism in his last essay, nor did he need to.

His critique is clearly about the moral failure (in every possible way) of the Left to oppose the fascism of the Baathists on principle vis a vis support for the removal of Saddam.

His point in this case, independent of WMD, or war in response to 9/11, is that for the Left to have vilified Bush/Blair/Haliburton/Neo-Cons, as an end in itself, and thereby oppose the war in Iraq, was to sacrifice the Iraqis and relinquish any claim the Left had on the morality of their beliefs.

This is a narrow and devastating claim made by Berman, mirrored/echoed by Hitchens and Geras, and is most damning because their leftist bona fides.

When you add the Left's apology for the death cult that is Islamofascism, you can see the chasm of illiberal groupthink into which many of the Left have fallen.

Grant,

Do I vote domestic policy or do I vote foreign policy? Kiss goodbye Civil Unions, a Woman's Right to Choose, and Responsible Fiscal Policy or stomach cowardice in the War on Terror.

What happens to your domestic agenda if we lose the "War on Terror?"

harry,

I'm talking about an honest effort to create a new international world order to deal with the new threats 9/11 made evident.

You are profoundly naive. The UN is mostly comprised of states that use terrorism as their prime instrument of statecraft along with their sympathizers, supporters and benefactors. It is hopelessly corrupt and an honest effort requires honest counter parties. You also seem to want us to create a perfect utopian world all at once while simultaneously maintaining your own standard of ethical purity. Get real.

"The UN is mostly comprised of states that use terrorism as their prime instrument of statecraft along with their sympathizers, supporters and benefactors."

I've had plenty of arguments with friends more leftist than me in which I point out the flaws and problems with the UN to me, but the above is a distinct exaggeration. "partially comprised" is a perfectly fair statement. "Mostly comprised" is not.

"It seems little bizarre to accuse actual war heroes like Clark and Kerry of "cowardice in the War on Terror"...

Yep, they are War Heroes...Kerry especially. We're greatly in debt for the contributions that they and millions like them have made to keep you and I safe. But, notice that I only accused them of "cowardice in the War on Terror" and that never did I call THEM "cowards". Heroic service and a great bio don't necessarily make for a great, dare I say it, heroic politics.

Case in Point: Bob Dole is a hell of a stand-up-guy, he really is. I wouldn't of voted for him, though.

Harry writes:

“. . .cowboy diplomacy that alienated Europe, and in the arrogant refusal to, heretofore, let the U.N. into Iraq.”

Really? Which 'Europe' are we referring to, here? By the close of 2003, Associated Press reported the Coalition as including personnel from 7 out of Europe's 10 largest countries (UK, Italy, Ukraine, Spain, Poland, Romania and the Netherlands -- Russia, Germany and France are the odd three out) and at least half of all European states; 12 of 19 NATO members and 8 out of 10 candidates for NATO membership. All this, in addition to Australia, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, the Philippines and Thailand. 30 countries, in all.

Rather, it would seem the rest of us have been ‘alienated’ by the stubborn obstinacy of France, German and Russia.

As for the UN, it left Iraq on its own, after refusing U.S. protection, then suffering a devastating terrorist attack. The U.S. has again asked it to become involved, this time to help deal with Shiite demands. Once again, to the contrary, it is the UN’s embarrassing petulance which has left it on the sidelines in Iraq.

If I want to read baseless scolding and presumptions of U.S. culpability in disagreements with France, Germany or the UN, I’ll get it from the op-ed pages of Europe’s newspapers.

Pardon. Upon further reflection, please replace "...stubborn obstinacy..." above with "...cynical manipulation of the language of morality and crass invocations of 'international law,' all in the service of base personal and commercial interests..." 'Blood for oil,' indeed. Sheesh.

Also upon reflection, please replace "...embarrassing petulance..." with "...insistence upon reprising its role as 'Slumlord of the Balkans and the West Bank'..."

Cosmo, you left out 4 of the 7 G7 members.

Harry, Harry, Harry! How can one be anti-war and still state that SH had to go. Do you believe that he would have stepped down because you and others who think like you asked? Really?

If you wanted it done, but you aren't the President, you needed him to decide how to do it. Now, you may disagree with his choices (and I assume that you do) but you can't be anti-war because you already said that SH had to go.

How would you have done it had Bush come to you and said "Harry, come up with a plan to topple SH." Would you have said "Apply sanctions?" That didn't work for 12 years. What makes one think it would work in the next 12, especially given what we have learned from the records left behind?

Would you have said "An international coalition?" But that is what Bush had, not perhaps the members you wanted, but as Cosmo noted, a MAJORITY of the folks we have solid and mutual international relations with.

Would you have said "Send in the UN Military forces?" The UN has a woefully inadequate history with the possible exception of the Korean War and even then the US was the "major stockholder" in that war. Since the Korean "Police Action" the forces of the UN have had decidely poor showings in hot spots around the world. Nah, the Blue Helmets wouldn't have worked would they?

Would you perhaps have said "Send in the CIA and other covert teams?" But, didn't that great liberal Church decimate the CIA? And haven't we learned (as you and the left have so pointedly noticed) that the CIA is generally clueless. Oh, wait, I already said Church gutted it didn't I?

Perhaps you would have said "Lets gather an Army and give him one last chance, lets publish warning after warning and then set a deadline. If SH fails to act by the deadline, we will take him out?" Well, that's exactly what Bush did. So, given all that, whats your disagreement about how Bush did it?

Berman makes a stirring and brave refutation of....a small fraction of the people who opposed the war, who have almost no power whatsoever in the United States.

a tip: Ignatieff is much, much better at convincing wavering liberals than Berman is. I can't find what he's written recently, though.

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