January 27, 2004

I am Tom Paine

I thought I might be Thomas Jefferson, but I guess Iím not!


Which Founding Father Are You?

(Thanks to Natham Hamm for the link.)

Posted by Michael J. Totten at January 27, 2004 11:13 AM
Comments

I am George Washington..."often the one friend in common between two blood enemies". Yep, that's me: The Voice of Reason.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at January 27, 2004 11:29 AM

Hmmm....Hamilton. Didn't expect that.

Posted by: eric at January 27, 2004 12:15 PM

I'm Washington, too - a born mediary and compromiser, that's me.

Posted by: Barry at January 27, 2004 12:23 PM

I got Washington too. Can one lose at this? Is there a Founding Father that no one likes to talk about?

Posted by: Peter G at January 27, 2004 02:01 PM

I'm

A L E X A N D E R H A M I L T O N

You have very little faith in humanity,
but still care a great deal about the
stupid little dolts, despite your best
efforts not to. You adhere to social
convention when required, but have
no patience for the machinations
that it sometimes involves. Watch
out for feelings of fatalism; they can
get you in hot water.

Ouch. Well, I guess that's pretty close, actually.

Posted by: Daniel at January 27, 2004 02:06 PM

Hamilton too.

Posted by: spc67 at January 27, 2004 03:14 PM

I'm George Washington?

Well that's a first! Most in the past have put me with John Adams or (rarely) Thomas Jefferson.(Usually John Adams due to added volatility and opinion)

I guess I must be mellowing or... Oh my God! maybe I am becoming a conservative!

One thing for sure Michael you are Thomas Paine.

Posted by: Samuel at January 27, 2004 05:39 PM

I am surprised to be Goerge Washington. I think 15 years ago I would have been Adams.

Posted by: Doug at January 27, 2004 06:00 PM

I'm George Washington, friend to all, which figures -- I'm a psychologist who works in a prison. Though in about five years, I'll probably be more like Hamilton...:)

Posted by: Jerry at January 27, 2004 06:33 PM

The original George Dubya!

I guess I should take that as a compliment, but reading the descriptions, I thought I'd be Jefferson or, maybe, Adams.

Posted by: Matt Ward at January 27, 2004 06:57 PM

Paine,

Guess I will have to spend the rest of the evening working out the latest diatribe.

Posted by: Matthew King at January 27, 2004 09:48 PM

Hamilton. Cool, I get to die in a duel!

Strange how most commenters are Al or George. It probably means something but I don't have the patience to ponder it apparently...

Posted by: Greg at January 27, 2004 10:57 PM

Since when was George Washington a contemporary conservative?!

Plus..."you are often the one friend in common between two blood enemies"?

It's difficult to read a whole lot of politics into any of the descriptions but if you insist, doesn't this make George Washington out to be more of a bipartisan Centrist? A Common-Sense Moderate? An Independent?

I just don't know where you're getting the conservativism thing. I'm kind of liable to think that George Washington, were he alive today, would be pretty disturbed by the shock troops on both sides: Punching Barbara Boxer square in the face with a foot up Tom Delay's ass, you know.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at January 28, 2004 12:14 AM

Since when was George Washington a contemporary conservative?!

The Founding Fathers were not conservatives. They were revolutionaries. Contemporary conservatives may like some of the Founding Fathers more than they like some others, but the conservatives in their day were Tories.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 28, 2004 01:29 AM

Washington here as well.

Posted by: James Stephenson at January 28, 2004 04:55 AM

Great....I'm George freakin' Washington...

although for two of those questions there was no good match so I took the least bad match.

Posted by: Joe at January 28, 2004 05:56 AM

Daniel wrote:

"I'm

A L E X A N D E R H A M I L T O N

You have very little faith in humanity,
but still care a great deal about the
stupid little dolts, despite your best
efforts not to."

That kinda sound like Dr. Who to me....

Posted by: Joe at January 28, 2004 05:58 AM

Go back and read your history Mike, The founding fathers were indeed quite conservative. That's why they revolted in the first place.

An interview in 1842 between US historian, Mellen Chamberlain, and a survivor of the fight at Concord Bridge, Captain Preston (then 91) is enlightening:

C: 'Did you take up arms against intolerable oppressions?'
P: 'Opressions? I didn't feel them.'
C: 'Were you not oppressed by the Stamp Act?'
P: 'I never saw one...(and) certainly never paid a penny for one of them.'
C: 'Well, what about the Tea Tax?'
P: 'I never drank a drop of the stuff!'
C: 'Then I suppose you had been reading....about the eternal prinicples of liberty?'
P: 'We read only the Bible, the Catechism, Watts' Pslams and Hymns, and the Almanac.'
C: 'Well then....what did you mean in going to the fight?'
P: 'What we meant...was this: we had always governed ourselves and we always meant to.'

That was what the American War of Independence was about.

Posted by: eric at January 28, 2004 06:14 AM

Eric...

I fear you are trying to wrap up 18th Century political sentiments in contemporary thought.

Saying they were "quite conservative" and that that's why they revolted in the first place is a HUGE contradiction in terms. Classic Conservatives HATE revolution, absolutely hate it. It's a threat to the power of the elites, it's a threat to social stability, and it's the most dangerous thing imaginable because to them it empowers the mob.

If you're going to try to wrap it up in contemporary terms anyway, imagining where they would stand were they alive today, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt they'd find themselves squarely in the Libertarian Party.

Faith-baith Initiatives and the Redistribution of Income would scare the bejesus out those guys.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at January 28, 2004 11:46 AM

Eric,

Go ahead and be conservative and support the ideas of the Founding Fathers. Cool. But they were revolutionaries. The only way you can say the revolutionaries were conservatives is to pretend the conservative Tories did not exist.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 28, 2004 02:32 PM

Grant, Michael,

Noooo.. they were Neo-Cons!!!

:)

Posted by: Samuel at January 28, 2004 06:27 PM

Michael,

All joking aside. I would like to add one missed point. They were for the most part libertarian. When one adds self governing, low-taxes, small government with a states-rights emphasis, well that sounds like New Hampshire libertarian-republicanism to me! So either the founding fathers were conservative or the republicans have co-opted liberalism, I’ll let you chew on that one. Personally I feel in today’s terms they would be considered conservative regardless of what it would be considered in their day, and isn’t that the sad point? It shouldn’t be conservative in today’s world, yet it is! Neo-Liberalism was a liberal idea of the early sixties, the word liberal is in there for a reason, the Democrats rejected it, libertarians accepted it, liberals decided to reject libertarians but republicans embraced them, so neo-liberalism/libertarianism became conservative. Wilsonian Foreign policy was liberal but post LBJ it became rejected by liberals but more accepted by Republicans. Then Ronald (ironically Wilson) Reagan came and accepted both. Michael, Reagan just went through what we are “War Liberals” are going through but with him it was communism. He saw the sick, not only complacency but down right sympathy for communism by left-liberals and became a “War Liberal”, retained his “Wilsonian” foreign policy, accepted neo-liberalism yet ironically went on to be considered a “radical conservative” just like neo-conservatives are considered hard right today. Michael I think you have to admit that there are revolutionaries on both sides. For me the fact that most neo-cons who used to all be on the left are for the most part are on the right, tells me which side is more revolutionary today, these people will move to where revolutionary ideas are, and if revolutionary is the key in this argument, left-liberalism as defined today loses big-time. Sorry, it shouldn’t be that way, but they f-----d up! I would like to hear what you think about this.

Posted by: Samuel at January 28, 2004 07:17 PM

There must be some mistake.

I ended up with Richard Nixon.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at January 28, 2004 08:34 PM

DennisThePeasant,

That is hilarious!

Posted by: Samuel at January 28, 2004 09:09 PM

Grant, Mike,

They were conservative. They were also the elites of their society. Interesting, no?

Frankly, the whole thing could be veiwed as a coup d'etat in the provinces rather than a revolution. The same guys who were the movers and shakers before the war in the various state assemblies were pretty much the same guys after the war. Unlike 1789 in France, or 1917 in Russia or 1979 in Iran. That's revolution.

The revolution, if there was one, didn't occur until 1787 and the Constitution. Or again, was it? Its worked for over 200 years now. Pretty conservative, that.

Posted by: eric at January 29, 2004 06:04 AM

"Faith-baith Initiatives and the Redistribution of Income would scare the bejesus out those guys."

Actually, no. Check FDR's four freedoms to re-orient yourself. Faith-based initiatives (which seek merely to eliminate discriminatory regulations such as the Blaine amendment) fall under his freedom of religion, limited redistribution of income (toward a minimum standard rather than full equality) falls under freedom from want.

There are those who will distort what each of these is about for political gain, but they can lay no legitimate claim to be following in either the founders' or FDR's footsteps if they do so.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at January 29, 2004 06:35 AM

Eric,

In fact, no revolution has ever been as uniquely run and dictated by such a elite intellegentia.

Posted by: Samuel at January 29, 2004 06:41 AM

"Punching Barbara Boxer square in the face with a foot up Tom Delay's ass, you know."

Woot! Now that's the father of my country!

;-)

I didn't find options that fit me on most of the survey questions, so I guess I'd be Ben Franklin. Maybe William Penn...

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at January 29, 2004 07:03 AM

By the way,

Go ahead and be conservative and support the ideas of the Founding Fathers. Cool. But they were revolutionaries. The only way you can say the revolutionaries were conservatives is to pretend the conservative Tories did not exist.

Michael Paleeze!

That is ridiculous! That would imply that the Pat Buchanan, Joe Sobran, Georgie Ann Geyer, Samuel Francis, etc. paleo brigade de-legitimizes or cancels out G.W. Bush, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Perle, etc. No, the Tories were Paleos but we aren’t arguing those. We are arguing the revolutionaries. The arguments in comparative terms to today’s politics make them conservatives by a mile, and as I said earlier, THAT SUCK’S!

Posted by: Samuel at January 29, 2004 07:22 AM

Also the judicial activism of today would freak these guys out! These guys believed much more in the legislative process than judicial activism. Most predicted the proper reversal in future of some of their unfortunate compromises to get the country "off the ground".

A more interesting note…the overlooked

George Mason

There where some exceptions however, like one of my favorites the unfortunately overlooked but most brilliant George Mason who went to, but refused to participate in, the Constitutional Convention. He left in protest because it lacked a provision to eradicate slavery and also a Bill of Rights, he basically said “No Bill of Right’s, I’m out of here” he was maligned as a whiner by the periodicals because of this, but on his way out a highly impressed James Madison promised George Mason it would be his life’s endeavor and would bring one forward and swore to it. Mason also freed his slaves and made dire predictions that came true because that provision was not put in. He was the true ideological/intellectual guru of his day. Jefferson, Madison and others borrowed from Mason the reverse is not the case. A letter of advice to Jefferson talked about self-evident truths, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, man being created equal. In fact this letter pretty much read like the Declaration of Independence but Mason had authored and implemented these ideas in the House of Burgess of Virginia. He was by far the most plagiarized yet he was glad to oblige never complained and didn’t stand up for credit. Most jingoistic terms we read in the documents, official or not, of our Founding Fathers come from Mason. I used to live two miles from George Mason's home (Gunston Hall) and visited it probably twice a year. This guy was an absolute principled genius. You can call him conservative or liberal I could care less, I love this man. Unfortunately and unfairly the most overlooked.

Posted by: Samuel at January 29, 2004 07:59 AM

Samuel,

My point is that the Founding Fathers were not conservative in their own time. How could they have been? They were revolutionaries. They fought against the conservatives of the day.

The fact that today's conservatives admire and support the revolutionaries of the past doesn't contradict that at all.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 29, 2004 12:15 PM

Easy. The founding fathers actually were trying to preserve their status quo. That is pretty much the definition of conservative. They claimed to be asserting their rights as 'Englishmen' against Lord North's administration.

One even see usages like 'ministerial troops' very early on, the implication being that the argument wasn't with the King, but with his ministers. Which, frankly it was.

Call it a conservative revolution if you want to, but conservative is what those guys were.

Posted by: eric at January 29, 2004 01:20 PM

Eric,

Who were the Tories if not the conservatives?

I'm not trying to bash conservatives here. I'm just curious how a revolutionary can be considered a conservative in any context. After a revolution is successful, yesterday's revolutionary becomes today's conservative. But that's just the thing. They become conservatives because they are defending the gains of the revolution. If they started out as conservatives, they would have opposed the revolution in the first place.

Just to be clear: I am not saying that the Democratic Party is the party of the Founding Fathers and that the Republican Party is the party of the Crown. I'm not saying that today's conservatives are wrong because they were against the American Revolution. That would be silly.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 29, 2004 03:24 PM

Michael,

So you want to Tom Paine this conservative-liberal argument to death... fine!

Liberal is liberal, and revolutionary is revolutionary. Revolutionary is not a synonym of liberal! Someone can be a revolutionary for the cause to protect what they believe to be already theirs.

From Eric’s earlier post:

C: 'Well then....what did you mean in going to the fight?'
P: 'What we meant...was this: we had always governed ourselves and we always meant to.'

Damn that sounds like somebody trying to protect what he already had and feared was going to lose! Britain was in a world war and Americans were about to get caught up in it with freedom debilitating consequences! This inspired reasons from both the right and left. A conservative sees history and the fact that one of first things every dictator does is to disarm the citizens, our founding Father’s understood this, it wasn’t about the right to hunt. Liberals aren’t as keen to that. However liberals might see that same dictator take undesired books, put them in a pile and burn them, now they’ve done it! These people get together and throw a revolutionary party, both conservative and liberal, they are revolutionaries all. The Tories are nothing more than paleo-types from both sides who see advantage to having a dictator, king or whatever, seems pretty simple to me. The Tories sided with Britain for many reason that had nothing to do with liberal/conservative, they weren’t revolutionaries some were pacifists etc.

A revolutionary is a revolutionary, right or left has nothing to do with it. Being pissed off and principled has every thing to do with it! Isn't that what being a "war liberal" is all about? Bush might tell you he is "preserving" the right of our country to defend itself as well as "preserving" our right to be free and sovereign from treaties that might infringe upon those rights. Ridding the world of terrorism is an act of preservation (conservative), or ridding the world of terrorists is an act of liberation (liberal). By god they both have it!

Posted by: Samuel at January 29, 2004 11:35 PM

Mike,

I think Sam is saying it better than I am.

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