January 21, 2004

Metropoliticals

Jeff Jarvis explains whats up with me, Roger L. Simon, and himself becoming more politically independent.

It makes us all biparty.
It makes us all flexible.
We are metropolitical.
Ill tell you what I like best about being unattached to either political party. Democracy has more value to me now than it did before. I dont actually know who I am going to support for president in November. In every previous election, that was unthinkable. I was always against the Republicans, period.

Now I dont know. In some ways I like the Democrats, and in other ways I like the Republicans. This time around Ill actually get to decide. Ill actually make a choice. It isnt predetermined by anybody, not even myself. Democracy is all about choice, and those who are rigid party supporters dont get to know what that feels like. I feel more powerful having a choice, like what I say and think actually counts. I can think for myself in ways I only thought I could before. No one feeds me opinions with a spoon. No one I care about insists that since I believe X I must also believe Y. It was lonely for a while, but now its nice. I like it. Im free.


UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan writes:

Well, I've never tried to please everyone with this blog but the torrent of abuse and mockery yesterday because of my criticisms of the SOTU caused me a little grief. According to many Republicans, I'm selling out to the "hard left." According to some Democrats, I've finally seen the light, ha, ha, ha. How about applying principles to changing events and circumstances? It says something about what has happened to the Republican party that supporting fiscal responsibility is now the position of the "hard left." And it says something about some Democrats that you either have to hate this president or love him unconditionally. Why can't a grown-up have a complicated position?
You can, Andrew. Grown-ups don't give you a hard time for it.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at January 21, 2004 09:39 PM
Comments

Expect to get lambasted for this one Michael. But know this, there are others like you. I too, am keeping my mind and my ears open. If I hear a good message, I will go for it.

Posted by: FH at January 21, 2004 10:04 PM

I like the sound of that name, especially since I am from an urban environemnt and vastly prefer a city to a suburb.

The X1=Y issue was brought up in a book by Walter Williams and it mentioend that if someone believes in a,b, and c, he is mots likely to believe in X,Y, and Z.

I find those of us that don't follow the pattern to be above the flocks of purists (or sheep if you will) who would support whatever their ideological commanders told them is good or party-approved.

Posted by: Green Baron at January 21, 2004 11:22 PM

or sheep if you will

Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 22, 2004 12:49 AM

Michael,

I think you've mentioned that you're familiar with Strauss and Howe. In terms of the generational cycle, what's happened is that our crisis has come early. Some of the brighter lights of the current generation in power - and yes, this does include Clinton and Bush - intuit that its time to unite, but their generation just isn't cut out for it, so they continue sniping at one another.

Guess our generation will have to step up ahead of schedule to do our unifying job. Keep up the good work leading the charge.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at January 22, 2004 03:04 AM

I came to the Metropolitical position through a different route: I was a Libertarian (big and small L), until I came to major problems with the whole notion.

Being a swing voter is absolutely invigorating. It opens the debate in your head. You see how every candidate has strong points, every candidate is fatally flawed.

Partisanship is a strange kind of superstition. When you're partisan, you give people properties they don't actually have. You think that reality doesn't matter. You see massive change where there is very little and no change at all where everything is suddenly different.

In the partisan world, 8% growth is meaningless; all that is important is how we FEEL. In the partisan world, half believe that partial-birth abortion is an unthinkable abomination while the other half believes that the banning of it is slavery. The opposition is not only not honorable but palpably evil.

GoE, the crisis is not yet upon us but we can sure see the cracks in the foundation.

Posted by: Undertoad at January 22, 2004 05:19 AM

"GoE, the crisis is not yet upon us but we can sure see the cracks in the foundation."

Yeah, that may be part of the problem: the last crisis was pretty obvious (WWII), while its far from unanimous that 9/11 and the WoT is of that magnitude.

I think you and MJT came from the same place, as I did. Both libertarianism and the current popular version of liberalism are defined by what they are against instead of what they're for. Being a grown-up and getting to the next stage of the generational cycle takes the latter.

In Generations, Strauss and Howe note that in the Civil War cycle that the divisions were so bitter that we skipped the unifying cycle, with disastrous consequences. Hope we can dodge that bullet this time.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at January 22, 2004 05:38 AM

I've been registered as an independant for a while. Kinda bites because I don't get to vote in the primaries (and the guy I like never seems to make it through). Wish I could just "pick one" sometimes. However, it just seems that the two halves are just getting farther and farther apart. As an independant, I get to endure comments of being the "mediocre middle" or a "fence staddler" or similar. I really believe that, if people could examine the issues without using a parisan lens, we may still disagree, but we wouldn't be nearly as far apart as Republican and Democrat.

Posted by: Joe at January 22, 2004 05:52 AM

...if someone believes in a,b, and c, he is mots likely to believe in X,Y, and Z.

This claim is as unsurprising as it is intuitive, given the relationship between the first three lower-case letters in the Roman alphabet and the last three upper-case letters in the Roman alphabet.

Now, I must go get my morning coffee.

Posted by: Peter A. at January 22, 2004 06:11 AM

I have a suggestion for people like Joe. Don't register as an Independent. Reregister for each voting cycle according to which party has the clearest CHOICE on its ballot (and I'm not just talking about the presidency here--local elections, though less contested than ever these days, are sometimes more important than national ones). People don't have the same job for life anymore, and lots of them switch partners every couple o years--why not party affiliation? This is a no brainer.

And Michael, I plan to put up a favorite candidate of the week sign outside my house and keep it there til November. I change my mind on who I'm going to vote for almost as often as I change my underwear (daily, I assure you). I've stopped worrying that this makes me a flipfloppingflimflammer of some kind. I'm enjoying the sense of freedom that comes from this political promiscuity (it'll have to stand in for all sorts of promiscuity, as a happily married personage). I'm running naked through the political wilderness even now!! Whoooohooo!

Posted by: Acid Tongue at January 22, 2004 06:32 AM

"Metropolitical" - I like the sound of it.

I generally find, however, that I end up voting against someone rather than for someone - in other words, choosing the lesser of two evils. In the past, that generally meant Repub locally (I'm in Chicago, home of the Daley Machine Part II), and Dem nationally. For the first time, I think I might end up doing straight Repub in '04, depending on what hacks the local parties put up for the Senate race.

Posted by: Percy Dovetonsils at January 22, 2004 07:06 AM

Yeah, Michael, stuff like this happens to folks on both sides.

I'm disgusted by it, too. I wouldn't say I'm moving more toward the center as much as moving away from being associated with either party. Then again, I've always voted for who I thought would be the best choice, regardless of party affiliation, which has had me vote Democrat more than a few times, and Independent once or twice.

Posted by: Slartibartfast at January 22, 2004 07:15 AM

"You can, Andrew. Grown-ups don't give you a hard time for it."

Oh stop acting like you are better than all the little kiddies. You've but only recently grew up yourself.

"In every previous election, that was unthinkable. I was always against the Republicans, period."

Posted by: JJ Walker at January 22, 2004 07:23 AM

First off, I'm somewhat embarassed to admit that I did not realize I could simply change affiliations every election cycle - I guess I just assumed it was "against the rules"....my bad on that one.

From an earlier post (partly responding to mine):

"--local elections, though less contested than ever these days, are sometimes more important than national ones"

Interesting statement in that I recently read an article (coming from a statistical analysis standpoint) on the subject of Gerrymandering. The basic crux of the article was that the availability of data and powerful computers were causing former "gentlemens agreements" on Gerrymandering to break down. The author went on to suggest that this may be the underlying cause for the highly polarized political environment we now have.

If I can find that article, I'll post info here.

Posted by: Joe at January 22, 2004 08:01 AM

Republicans vs. Democrats

The Party of the Church vs. the Party of The Chieftains

An intellectual audit of the Democrats and the Republicans:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/01/halstead.htm

Posted by: The Atlantic at January 22, 2004 08:42 AM

what's with all this talk about kerry/edwards being the strongest democratic ticket? maybe it is, but it won't pull me in. i thought i liked kerry, about a year and a half ago. since he started running, i've seen very little from him. he parses words, has very little message. i get the feeling that he listens a bit too much to the consultants and focus groups. basically, i don't think i would vote for this guy to lead the country. i'll give him a chance, but he's way behind.

i'm still thinking about edwards. lieberman's out, don't know if i would vote for him anyway. but edwards is compelling. he seems to encapsule the views with which i agree. he has been relatively hawkish with the war on terror and, despite his no vote on the $87B iraq package, he has supported the iraq war. on the domestic issues, i am more closely aligned with his political views than with pres. bush's.

i guess we'll have to wait n see how things go.

Posted by: Glenn at January 22, 2004 08:57 AM

"The Party of the Church vs. the Party of The Chieftains

An intellectual audit of the Democrats and the Republicans:"

Intellectual? As far as I can discern, the only support the article gave for the justifying the Republican party as a theocracy is because the Republicans in Congress are playing along with Bush? If partisanship is theocracy, don't the Democrats qualify as well? Last I checked, the Republicans have not wholeheartedly embraced many of Bush's big spending and illegal immigration policies.

A better place to look for theocracy would be in the monoculture classrooms of liberal arts academia.

Posted by: JJ Walker at January 22, 2004 09:20 AM

Why not Lieberman?

Posted by: JJ Walker at January 22, 2004 09:23 AM

Michael,

As another person with a "complicated position", I thank you for posting this. You put into words a vague feeling of odd hope I've been experiencing lately - When you wrote "I am going to get to decide". Yes. I feel exactly the same way. Thanks much.

Posted by: red at January 22, 2004 09:51 AM

From my earlier post:

"First off, I'm somewhat embarassed to admit that I did not realize I could simply change affiliations every election cycle - I guess I just assumed it was "against the rules"....my bad on that one."

Well, it's worse than that. Apparantly, I'm a first class card-carrying idiot.

You see, I've lived in Delaware for several years and never knew it was an open primary (heard about it just now on the radio). I can vote in the primaries in Delware, just not the other states I've lived in.

....no excuse....I'm an idiot...

Posted by: Joe at January 22, 2004 09:53 AM

Is it just me, or does metropolitical mean the exact same thing as independent? You decide between the major parties based on which candidates and policies appeal to you the most (or, the least).

So, why give in to the mangling of the English language?

Posted by: Nathan at January 22, 2004 10:18 AM

Nathan: why give in to the mangling of the English language?

It's a play on "metrosexual," I think. But I could be wrong, Jarvis coined it...

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 22, 2004 10:30 AM

Word. Lots more like you out there, man. Remains to be seen whether we can have any influence on the election, but isn't it odd how people in this position - as Sullivan described it today, "fiscal conservative, social/cultural liberal and foreign policy hawk" - are disproportionately represented in the blogosphere, and disproportionately under-represented in meatspace politics? Does that say something about us, or about blogs?

Posted by: brett at January 22, 2004 10:51 AM

"Independent" just means not something - not of either party. "Metropolitical" means for something - namely for knitting together the various principles represented by the parties so that each case we face in political life can be handled in accordance with its peculiarities, rather than inflexibly. (By the way, this is not the same as being unprincipled, because metropoliticals are consistent, whereas unprincipled people are not.)

That's all well and good, but who needs more verbiage? So, I like "independent".

Posted by: Jim at January 22, 2004 11:14 AM

"I was always against the Republicans, period.
Now I don’t know."

Enlightenment comes eventually to men of good will, and good sense.

I don't agree with Bush's position on his latest "amnesty" move. Reagan did a real amnesty back in his day, and I don't believe the results were all that spectacular.

But the alternatives proposed by the Democrats are simply unvoteable, unthinkable. Even now that the field has dropped to 8, what do we really know of their positions, other than that their only motive is "Beat Bush"? And what do we know of their ability to put together a strong, effective team the way Bush has? In fact, is there anyone in the Democratic lists who can compare to Rice in intelligence?

Think hard about who these guys would put forth as Secretay of State, Defense, Interior,...

Maybe I'm experiencing tunnel vision as far as they go. I'm still laughing at Dean's great burst into oblivion. Then there's Kucinich and Sharpton. Do the power brokers really think those 2 have a snowball's chance of getting elected? Or Kerry (who by the way served in Viet Nam)?

The only one with that proverbial snowball's chance seems to be Edwards, who spent most of his life convincing juries - sucessfully - to vote his way. But I have no idea what he'd do once in office. Pull all the troops out and watch the vacuum implode with hordes of al-Qaeda types? Return to the Clinton years of locking up the environment (National Parks, forests &c)? Go back to a "soak-the-rich" policy so that every American who would rather not work gets a free ride?

I'll take Bush as the lesser of two evils, and trust that the people will convince him to make good on his promise - made before the last election - to protect our borders.

Or at least, protect our borders as much as Mexico protects its southern border.

Posted by: Mike at January 22, 2004 11:14 AM

"mangling the English language"

It's called a neologism.

Neologisms are cool. They are where words come from. Shakespeare invented them all the time. It ain't mangling.

Does it mean the same thing as "independent"? Maybe. For those of you keeping score, that's called a synonym.

But it also maybe has a shade of meaning that is more specific than "independent." Maybe a kind of hip, kind of now, kind of bloggy independent. You know, like, Ross Perot was an independent., but Jeff Jarvis? He's a metropolitical.

Don't like it? Don't worry. Neologisms, or nonce words, are subject to natural selection, like all memes. "Metropolitical' probably has a short half-life. It refers to another very young neologism - "metrosexual" -- and it lacks the clever pun of its forebearer. It will probably fade.

You never know though. Schoolmarms and crotchety old newspaper editors used to HATE the word "fun." But it snuck through.

Posted by: Browning at January 22, 2004 11:34 AM

Mexico protects its southern border? That's interesting: could you tell us more about that? Is it as guarded as the US-Mexican border? Know of any interesting links on the subject?

I'm not out to bash Mexico, - on the contrary, I do look forward to more integration between our economies. But I am interested in examples of anti-American hypocrisy masquerading as criticism. If Mexico imposes the same kinds of restrictions on its southern border, then why is that not more well known?

Posted by: Finnpundit at January 22, 2004 11:35 AM

"but isn't it odd how people in this position - as Sullivan described it today, "fiscal conservative, social/cultural liberal and foreign policy hawk" - are disproportionately represented in the blogosphere, and disproportionately under-represented in meatspace politics? Does that say something about us, or about blogs?"

Just means we're the next majority. May take us ten to twenty years to get there. Will be interesting to see which party moves our way. My money's on the Dems after they exhaust all other alternatives. We'll see...

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at January 22, 2004 11:36 AM

I would have thought Sullivan's audience was better than that. And it's not like he's really that partisan a personality to begin with. Conservative sure (and liberal too), but I think he's got a good track record of honestly evaluating people.

His views on the social portion of Bush's SOTU -- that Bush seems deeply suspicious of personal freedom and is consequently Big Government-minded -- are both an example of this and spot-on.

Posted by: John-Paul Pagano at January 22, 2004 11:48 AM

Tell us Michael,
Do you embrace the metrosexual label, or does it cause you instinctively to reach for a Pabst Blue Ribbon?

Coining any word that begins with m-e-t-r-o right now outta be outlawed, with severe, bloody punishments mandatory.

Of course, your suggestion is nowhere near as vomit-inducing as the attempt of some (I hope small number) of singles to rename themselves "quirky alones". Guys get to metro-cize everything, girls try to give it the "hello kitty" treatment. Either way, yech.

Posted by: Acid Tongue at January 22, 2004 12:15 PM

Acid Tongue,

I didn't coin the phrase metropolitical. I just kinda like it.

But yes, metrosexual does make me want to reach for a Pabst.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 22, 2004 01:20 PM

I just don't like it when people invent new words that do not conform to their root words.

I suppose that new words have to come from somewhere, but I don't have to like it. So there! :)

Posted by: Nathan at January 22, 2004 03:06 PM

Maybe a kind of hip, kind of now, kind of bloggy independent.

Thanks. That captures the whole fencesitting poltical hipster thing in a nutshell. It's so edgy.

Posted by: Mithras at January 22, 2004 06:27 PM

Might we be moving into a post party era in American politics. It seems to me that with the plethara of information available, Americans can be less easily fooled than ever before and have a much greater opportunity to make an informed choice. It's really been a long time already that people have been disgusted by excessive partisanship in Washington. If we reach a point where an absolute majority of American voters consider themselves independent, the n politics as we know it will be changed forever.

Posted by: Doug at January 22, 2004 06:37 PM

Quoth Toby Keith, country singer & polisci sage: "Democrats today aren't your Daddy's Democrates."

(Toby said this last night on Larry King, talking about his father, a veteran who flew the flag every day who was also a lifelong and devoted Democrate.)

So, I think a lot of people, intellectuals and otherwise, are being shaken loose from the Democrats and if some Democrat was smart, it wouldn't be that hard to locate them. Trouble is, would the radical left let a candidate do that?

Posted by: Judith at January 22, 2004 07:13 PM

You seem to be a straight-shooter when it comes to your politics, and I think you've made it clear that in all likelihood, you will vote for the President at the top of the ticket and the Democrats below, but I don't think you can put Sullivan, Simon or Jarvis in the "independent" camp. Sully has always been a conservative, and his Captain Reynaud-posts of late that he is "shocked, shocked" to discover Bush pandering to the far right social bigots is getting old. Jarvis is spending an inordinate amount of time denouncing that enemy-of-the-state, Margaret Cho, for being insufficiently enamored of the Patriot Act, and Simon seems more interested spreading the meme that Wesley Clark is "barely human". To put it another way, Jarvis, Sully and Simon are as metropolitical as Tom DeLay.

Posted by: Steve Smith at January 22, 2004 08:49 PM

Steve,

Andrew Sullivan has not always been conservative. He supported Clinton, and he's increasingly frustrated with George W Bush. Jarvis and Simon have never voted Republican, and are a thousand miles from Tom DeLay. Tom DeLay rails against Darwin, for starters.

Nominate Edwards or Lieberman and I'll vote straight Democrat. So might Jarvis and Simon. You'll at least tempt Sullivan.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 22, 2004 09:02 PM

Sullivan claims to have supported Clinton in 1992, but then again, so did William Safire; Bubba was a popular pick with the punditocracy that year. Sully idolized Margaret Thatcher in the late-80's, so you can hardly call him an ex-liberal (and I doubt he would, either). Simon voted for Ahnold in the most recent election, hardly the action of someone who is only reluctantly supporting the GOP because of the War on Terror (Davis' views on the Patriot Act were not at issue during the recall). I doubt Jarvis (or Simon) would support Edwards in any event, since Edwards would repeal much of the Patriot Act (FWIW, I'm leaning towards the North Carolina Senator for the California primary; since the last trial lawyer to stand for President was Abe Lincoln, I'd say we're overdue).

Posted by: Steve Smith at January 22, 2004 09:17 PM

You forget something, Steve. Independents are allowed to vote for Republicans. "Independent" does not mean "party-line Democrat."

The fact that Roger Simon voted for a Republican, when he has always voted for Democrats in the past, is evidence that he is Independent, not that he's not.

I would have voted for Arnold in California, but in the context of Oregon I am sure I will vote Democratic for governor next time just as I did last time. I'll bet Roger would, too, if he lived here and surveyed the scene.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 22, 2004 10:16 PM

After watching Edwards, I have to say that he is the closest thing to what a Democrat should be. He's likeable and seems genuinely compassionate. He voted for the war in Iraq which neutralizes that issue. I think he'd give Bush the toughest challange and I hope he wins the nomination. The thought of watching a debate between Bush and Kerry is too painful to contemplate.

Also, congrats to the good Democrats of Iowa for not allowing the Moore/Soros/MoveOn Vichy wing to take over the party. Dean is toast. Clark is fading. The Democrats as a party are being tested this year. They may pass.

Posted by: HA at January 23, 2004 04:29 AM

It's too soon to be sure of Dem or Rep in Nov, unless you're already party committed. John Edwards has a 56 page .pdf on his positions, that I downloaded but slept on instead of reading last night. I suspect it's full of fine generalizations of desirable outcomes, without the tough choices of how to fund gov't actions. The big gov't Dems like endless gov't programs, paid for by "somebody else"; what a lie, but that's what Bush is giving the country, anyway.

The libertarian position of civil AND economic liberty will be influential to both parties, in differing amounts at different times. The losing Dems are most likely to take more of the most popular; pehaps ending the war on drug (using people).

But Pakistan has nukes, so all Islamic dictatorships are in line to get them in the next decade or so. Every dictatorship that is left alone will, in the not too distant future, have nukes. This is real, and really scary -- even to me in Slovakia. Lots of red states coming.

Posted by: Tom Grey at January 23, 2004 04:46 AM

Here is a question for Micheal Totten: Have you ever explored the conservative/right-wing position? And I don't mean Bill O'Reily-crap. I mean the read deal, what THINKING conservatives actually think?

See these two posts from 2blowards for what I am talking about:

Adventures in Rightie Thought
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001256.html

Q & A With Jim Kalb
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001257.html

It seems like a true leftie-to-independent should explore the premises on the right before he rejects both right and left.

Posted by: Question mark at January 23, 2004 07:13 AM

Nominate Edwards or Lieberman and I'll vote straight Democrat.

Michael, I looked at Edwards' site after he won in Iowa (and predicted on Tacitus that he'd win the nomination and the election if he came up with a defense plank that could bring you in) and couldn't really find a defense "plank". It seems you're satisfied with his defense stance, could you please explain it to me?

Thanks.

Posted by: crionna at January 23, 2004 09:21 AM

Crionna: It seems you're satisfied with his defense stance, could you please explain it to me?

He wrote a Washington Post op-ed about a year ago. He said foreign policy should never be politicized and that he supported regime-change in Iraq to the hilt, unilaterally if necessary.

It was all I needed to know.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 23, 2004 10:54 AM

Metropolitical; Maybe a kind of hip, kind of now, kind of bloggy independent.

Thanks. That captures the whole fencesitting poltical hipster thing in a nutshell. It's so edgy.

Yeah, Mithras. I supported liberating the Iraqis and alientating all my leftists friends just to make a fashion statement. Plus, it goes great with my man-purse.

Posted by: Browning at January 23, 2004 11:37 AM

He wrote a Washington Post op-ed about a year ago. He said foreign policy should never be politicized and that he supported regime-change in Iraq to the hilt, unilaterally if necessary.

Couldn't find that, but he had the same opinion 9/19/02

Hmmmmmm

Thanks.

Posted by: crionna at January 23, 2004 12:01 PM

Crionna,

That's the one. (I thought it was more recent than that.)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 23, 2004 01:49 PM

With all due respect, exploration of the intellectual underpinnings of conservative thought is kind of fun but totally irrelevant to figuring out whether or not to support the Party of Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, and DeLay.

I remain baffled that this board continues to insist that a set of people who supported the intervention in Afghanistan and criticized the intervention in Iraq for distracting us from security threats facing the United States are somehow uninterested in those selfsame threats. I guess I should be used to this kind of "thought" from the "objectively pro-Saddam" crowd.

Posted by: Kimmitt at January 23, 2004 02:22 PM

Kimmitt,

I read both liberal and conservative magazines. With the exception of The New Republic, the liberal magazines almost completely ignore the problems of terrorism, dictatorship, eliminationist anti-Semitism, rogue states, weapons proliferation, and Islamofascism. It's just not on their radar screen. It's indicative of a mentality.

These are the things I am interested in and want to write about. And it forces me to play in the centrist/conservative sandbox whether I like it or not. The intellectual left has no place for me and my interests. It is absolutely impossible for me not to notice this and take it seriously. You can be in denial all you want, but I can't, and I really do wish it were different.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 23, 2004 03:45 PM

or sheep if you will

Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at January 22, 2004 12:49
You are funney as shit. Keep up the good work.

Posted by: Joe Peden at January 23, 2004 07:24 PM

Mr. Totten,

The reason the leftist magazines "ignore" the problems you cite is because they don't exist in the fashion you think they do.

terrorism,

Pretty much every magazine known to man, including Shoemaker's Weekly weighs in on how to deal with the terrorist threat facing the US. However, they do not consider it a national emergency on par with WWII, so you don't think that they are serious.

dictatorship

What, precisely, is the "problem of dictatorship?" Is it that some of them exist? Well, the Left has had its own position on the issue, "Let's stop propping them up and go from there," and that hasn't happened yet, so what more is there to say?

eliminationist anti-Semitism

Oh, for the love of Pete. Listen -- Israel won. Seriously. The war ended in 1967, and Israel won. By a lot. It is now by far the most powerful state in the region, despite its small size and population. What we're dealing with is how to handle the aftermath. The frothing of the enraged and occasionally insane Islamic fundamentalists on this issue is relevant because they can cause harm to individual Israelis, not because the Israeli state is actually threatened. Palestinians lose at least two for every Israeli killed, and that's because the Israelis keep the gloves on. At any time, Israel has the capacity to simply wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. The Palestinians have nothing resembling this capacity.

rogue states

Talk about adopting the language of the oppressors. Rogue states are states that fail to conform to international pressures and norms. Like, you know, us. The term lacks all meaning in the absence of a United States which follows the norms.

weapons proliferation

Most lefty discussion of proliferation centers around the idiocy of the President's decision to ignore Russian, North Korean, and Pakistani threats. It's out there, trust me.

Islamofascism

Since you've redefined "Islamofacism" to mean "any guy in charge who's Muslim and is bad," you're kind of stuck with the folks who are into this idea of an epic battle of civilizations.

To draw an analogy, we're at Munich, not the Ardennes. Our opponents are weak and easily defeated through a combination of will and sympathy for their grievances; we can peel away the majority of their supporters through the simple expedient of helping them get jobs and raise families, while handling the hard core in the necessary brutal fashion. Let's see if we can't avoid creating a new Treaty of Versailles and dooming ourselves to a pointless war.

Posted by: Kimmitt at January 24, 2004 10:18 PM

Kimmit, you are a frog. I wish to immediately apologize to the frogs. Nothing you say makes any sense, unless you are a terrorist or a communist. Go look into the mirror.

Posted by: Joe Peden at January 25, 2004 06:33 AM

Joe Peden,

You're on the fast-track to getting kicked out of here. I will not have my other guests called terrorists and communists. You are degrading the discussion and you need to stop.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 26, 2004 01:54 AM

Don't worry that other people don't know you; worry that you don't know other people.

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