January 15, 2004

The Wrong Stuff

I made a mistake.

Several months ago I signed a Draft Wesley Clark petition on the Internet. When asked to submit a comment along with my signature, I wrote Please help save the Democratic Party from itself. I really thought he could do it.

Im still on the mailing list, but I can no longer bring myself to open the emails.

Chris Suellentrop at Slate compiled some oddball quotes from the generals campaign in New Hampshire. I must say he misrepresents the first, and the second is no big deal. But here are the rest.

The president was not and has not been held accountable yet for misleading the American people. He is continuing to associate Saddam, Iraq, and the problem of terrorism. Yet the only terrorists that are in Iraq are the people that have come there to attack us.
As if the only reason Iraqi Baathists are in their own country is to attack us. As if Abu Nidal only moved to Baghdad for the rent and the cheap eats. As if Saddams brazen financial support to Hamas and Islamic Jihad didnt qualify him as a state supporter of international terrorists.
Now, there's one party in America that's made the United Nations the enemy. And I don't know how many of you have ever read that series of books that's published by the Christian right that's called the "Left Behind" series? Probably nobody's read it up here. But don't feel bad, I'm not recommending it to you. I'm just telling you that according to the book cover that I saw in the airport, 55 million copies have been printed. And in it, the Antichrist is the United Nations. And so there's this huge, ill-informed body of sentiment out there that's just grinding away against the United Nations.
As if the Christian Right even has 55 million members in the first place. As if the only criticism of the United Nations is that its Satanic. As if I and plenty of other people didnt learn all about the perfidy of the United Nations from liberals in the 1990s when the UN sat back and watched Bosnians and Kosovars get massacred by Slobo. Surely the general knows something about that.
Young men in an Islamic culture cannot get married until they can support a family. No job, no marriage. No marriage, unhappy young men. They get real angry, they feel real frustrated, they feel real powerless. And a certain number of them are being exploited in the mosques by this recruiting network.
Actually, its the well-educated people who are most likely to join terror networks. Not the unemployed who cant get a date. But dont take my word for it. Read all about it yourself in The Guardian.
Newsweek magazine says he's [Osama bin Laden] in the mountains of western Pakistan. And I guess if Newsweek could find him there, we could, too, if we wanted to.
Ah, my favorite. Bush doesnt want to catch Osama bin Laden. Its just like in Jim Treachers Moveon fantasy ad:
And instead of a rubber duck in the hot tub, he has an Osama Bin Laden doll which he hugs and kisses like a little girl hugging a baby doll.

"I wuv woo, 'Sahmmy!"

The Osama Doll is dressed like Mrs. Beasley.

Im of the opinion that Osama bin Laden is DNA on rocks. But who knows? I could be wrong.

What Im not wrong about is that Wesley Clark is nuts if he thinks Bush cant see the upshot of nabbing bin Laden in an election year.


UPDATE: Roger L. Simon reminds me of the reasons I liked Clark in the first place, and shows that Clark's current campaign has all the integrity of lime jello.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at January 15, 2004 12:15 AM
Comments

Speaking of moveon.org fantasy ads:
http://www.liberaloasis.com/bushin41point2.htm

Posted by: Yehudit at January 15, 2004 01:24 AM

What got me was when an anchorman asked Gen. Clark about the Newsweek statement. Clark flew off the handle, and basically gave the "how dare you, sir" diatribe. Except that it was a valid question about something Clark himself had publically stated. They talk about Dean's temper, but Clark seemed totally out of control for a while there.

That and the vague, ominous warnings from current and former generals who worked with him. The "character and integrity" remarks from General Shelton, and similar warnings from Gen Schwarzkopf and Sec. Cohen have really raised my eyebrows. You can learn alot about someone by asking the guys around the office.

Posted by: Rob at January 15, 2004 04:27 AM

With the party of the ever-shifting goal posts, I am almost afraid to ask this question.

What is Wesley Clark going to do when Bush catches Osama? These same people were carping about Saddam two months ago, but Bush got no credit for that one?

I know this is a pointless question. I know what they will do. They will ignore it. They will sneer at it. They will claim that we have imprisoned an innocent man who deserves a fair trial - complete with a jury of Hamas "activists", Iraqi "freedom fighters" and the American Empire "resistance".

I'm just wondering when people like Wesley Clark are going to get called on the game of moving the goal posts when they aren't even playing in the game.

Posted by: Roark at January 15, 2004 05:27 AM

From what I read elsewhere, the Suellentrop piece in Slate piece was a satire on how the media takes quotes out of context.

That fact that no one realized it was a satire says something about the low expectations we have for the pundits.

(As for the capture of bin Laden "if we wanted to" -- it's part of Clark's overall critique that we should not have pulled resources away from the fight against Al Qaeda in order to invade Iran. He doesn't mean that Bush does not want to capture bin Laden. That would be a loony theory.)

Posted by: Oberon at January 15, 2004 05:37 AM

Michael,

You should try reading some other blogs, Suellentrop's article was debunked two days ago, and then in the fray itself, Suellentrop basically claimed it to be a joke piece.

I was a bit surprised to see this piece coming from you so late in the blogocycle, makes me wonder if you're a troll.

Posted by: anon at January 15, 2004 06:34 AM

See Mark Kleiman, et. al.

Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

Posted by: anon at January 15, 2004 06:35 AM

Michael

I am also a somewhat disappointed one-time Clark enthusiast. That said, I think you're overreacting: What Clark says (at least in items quoted by Suellentrop) is within the bounds of politicking and doesn't lurch over into the loony, at least to me, although, elsewhere, he's made a few borderline statements about Bush responsibility for 9/11, his (Clark's) guaranty of no new 9/11, etc.

As for whether it was meant as satire, which I've also heard, satire that's so subtle that nobody gets it isn't worth writing.

You might a look at this, which sort of reflects my take on some of the quotes: http://campaigndesk.org/

I remain undecided, if skeptical, about Clark.

Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at January 15, 2004 06:38 AM

Oberon, the Kleiman link referenced by that anon guy is here; Suellentrop's clarification is apparently here. For the record, Suellentrop has characterized himself as being too oblique, not as being guilty of parody. That's good to know, as the satire defense runs thin when overused.

Posted by: Moe Lane at January 15, 2004 06:54 AM

I thought the quote about 'Left Behind' was especially amusing. I mean its a series of novels (yeah, ya know, fiction) about the end of the world. The two people I know who have read at least one of the series it are not religious in the least. In fact, I'll bet he's actually read them himself. After all, how can someone reccomend or not reccomend a book they havnt even read?

The rest are equally rediculous but I found this one amusing as well.

Posted by: semm at January 15, 2004 07:06 AM

Thanks Moe. A very clever observation on the media taking quotes out of context be found here.

Posted by: Oberon at January 15, 2004 07:10 AM

I remember seeing on MSNBC a few weeks ago an interview with someone of Middle-East extraction living in London who claimed to have some contacts inside of Iran. He said he had it on very good authority that Bin Laden is currently hiding out in Iran. I give this guy as much chance of being right as I give Time Magazine.

Right around the same time I recall hearing Clark say that if he were President he would have caught Bin Laden by now.

So can I take this to mean that Clark is in favor of even more militant intervention, since this would require an invasion of Iran?

Incidentally, I too will believe that BL is dust until I see proof to the contrary. Audio only recordings won't convince me.

Posted by: Rick Meyer at January 15, 2004 07:38 AM

Oops. Make that Newsweek magazine, not Time.

Posted by: Rick Meyer at January 15, 2004 07:39 AM

So can I take this to mean that Clark is in favor of even more militant intervention, since this would require an invasion of Iran?

I assume so. Bush led us to invade Afghanistan to get bin Laden, and Clark (and the rest of the civilized world) supported him. I imagine the same policy would to apply Iran.

Posted by: Oberon at January 15, 2004 07:56 AM

One of the major problems for the Dems at the moment is that their two leading candidates (possibly not for long) Clark and Dean are weirdos, slightly out of contact with reality. Clark may even be the stranger of two. Edwards and Kerry seem like more normal people. This may shake itself out.

Posted by: Roger L. Simon at January 15, 2004 08:01 AM

Read the Salon article on the Left Behind craziness before you knock anything saying it's freakish and driving the debate.

Posted by: Hipocrite at January 15, 2004 08:29 AM

One of the major problems for the Dems at the moment is that their two leading candidates (possibly not for long) Clark and Dean are weirdos, slightly out of contact with reality.

On exactly what basis can you say something like this? Really. Because they disagree with you? Because they see a difference between fighting Baathists and fighting terrorists?

I mean, I could make a pretty good case that the President, who doesn't read newspapers, who thinks there's no difference between an active WMD program and the possibility of one, who stocks air force one with magazines like Bassmaster, who seems to have no idea about the depth of international distrust of America, is an out of touch goof. But it really isn't much of an observation -- these things haven't prevented him, or at least his subordinates, from governing.

I think calling a man who served 34 years in the military, earned a silver star, was a rhodes scholar, and reached the rank of general a "weirdo" is pretty silly.

Posted by: harry at January 15, 2004 09:12 AM

anon: You should try reading some other blogs, Suellentrop's article was debunked two days ago, and then in the fray itself, Suellentrop basically claimed it to be a joke piece.

I do read other blogs, but I also have a life.

This is what Suellontrop says about the piece:

I was obviously too oblique, given the number of readers in the Fray (and my inbox) that have objected to this piece. My point was simply that Wesley Clark's statements aren't being treated like Howard Dean's statements.

Perhaps it's because Dean is the front-runner and therefore his statements are receiving a higher degree of scrutiny. (That's my guess, by the way.) Or perhaps it's because Clark's supporters are right, and the fact that he was a general inoculates him somewhat from this kind of criticism.

Is Clark really the "electable Dean," or does he just seem that way because he's being judged by a different standard for now?

So what?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 15, 2004 09:14 AM

Roger L. Simon, I invoke Drezner's Lemma on thee. To paraphrase Drezner's Lemma: anytime an argument resorts to calling a US General unpatriotic or a weirdo, the argument is over and you lose. Michael, you come pretty close to doing so yourself, that's where my troll comment came from.

And Michael: when you write such stiff, macho statements as "DNA on rocks", you beg others to deconstruct your statements for sexual overtones. When you do this, you take away the initial precondition for the use of Armed Liberal's Law.

Posted by: anon at January 15, 2004 09:42 AM

Anon,

If you see sexual overtones in the phrase "DNA on rocks" that's your problem, not mine.

I do not get off on gore. I'm normal.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 15, 2004 10:46 AM

"Roger L. Simon, I invoke Drezner's Lemma on thee."

Actually, "Drezner's Lemma" is mislabeled, because it does not originate from him, but rather one of his critics. Furthermore, said critic (anne.elk, for those playing at home) categorized it as:

Drezner's Lemma: Anytime an argument claims that a retired general of the United States hates the United States, the argument is over, with the claimant losing.

Which should not be paraphrased as "anytime an argument resorts to calling a US General unpatriotic or a weirdo, the argument is over and you lose". Soo... we're to take the deliberately mistated version of a misleadingly attributed partisan observation by a commenter notoriously unsympathetic to the Right as gospel?

Crikey, you guys can't even keep your own smears straight.

Moe

Posted by: Moe Lane at January 15, 2004 10:58 AM

Wesley Clark is not unpatriotic, and a person would have to be breathtakingly obnoxious to say that he is.

So let's not pretend I said anything like it. K?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 15, 2004 11:11 AM

Clark's problem is not a lack of patriotism. It's his narcissim and pathological ambition which trump everything else, including a genuine commitment to a coherent and consistent point of view. A narcissist is the very worst sort of man to be entrusted with power.

Posted by: Paul Branin at January 15, 2004 12:47 PM

Why doesn't Kucinich get more air time? I mean he is more Dean than what Dean is supposed to represent.

Posted by: JJ Walker at January 15, 2004 01:12 PM

Stick a fork in it for Clark. Michael Moore just endorsed him.

Posted by: Mike Silverman at January 15, 2004 08:26 PM

MJT,

What's your take on Josh Marshall's out-of-hand dismissal of critiques of Dean's and Clark's inconsistencies?

There is something unsettling about his tone; can't quite put my finger on it. Strange that he wouldn't even try to offer reasons for the dismissal - how does he expect to convince anyone? Sheer intellectual snobbery?

Posted by: Sparrowhawk at January 16, 2004 01:55 AM

So a retired US general (or any other US general) can't hate the US? Does Benedict Arnold ring any bells? US general, war hero, traitor.

The ignorance astounds.

Posted by: SDN at January 16, 2004 05:51 AM

SDN,

Are you saying Wesley Clark is a traitor? Or are you just putting a hypothetical out there?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 16, 2004 08:52 AM

The story Roger linked to was a Drudge Report dowdification, as Josh Marshall showed.

Posted by: Steve Smith at January 16, 2004 02:39 PM

Steve,

Sorry. See Roger's blog. Roger posted the entire article by Wesley Clark verbatim from beginning to end as published in the London Times, not Drudge. He "cherry-picked" it all. No dowdification.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at January 16, 2004 03:06 PM

“Please help save the Democratic Party from itself.” I would rather have the party nominate Dean, lose by 30% of the popular vote and 100 electoral votes. That will accelerate the day that the loud, loony fringe (if Bush says 2+2=4, he's Hitler) calves off into their own little 3rd-party clique. Then the grownups can start rebuilding with an eye on 2008. It can be the party of Scoop Jackson again.

Posted by: Tina at January 16, 2004 04:18 PM

The post you link to concerned the Drudge Report, not the Times of London editorial, which wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of Bush's policy in any event.

Posted by: Steve Smith at January 16, 2004 05:53 PM

To say that Clark is unpatriotic is rather offensive. However, I would call him an ineffectual general. The silence from the Army brass about his conduct as Commander in Europe is deafening.

Let me put it this way: When an Army officer is asked to give an opinion on another officer, retired or not, there are three answers. One is an enthusiastic endorsement (good). The second is a warm endorsement (fair). The third is silence and "No comment" (piss-poor). Darn near all the top brass who worked with Clark are in the silence and "no comment" camp. Put that with the statements that many of his compatriots have said, and it sets off big red alarms in my mind.

Yes, he was a general. Yes, he has some chest salad, but that doesn't impress me. Officers get MSA's just from changing command. If he was enlisted and had a Silver Star, that would mean something to me. But all his service records (that I've seen, albeit relatively few) tell me is that he looked after himself first, and was able to politic well. That doesn't make a good commanding officer.

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