December 28, 2003
Friedman Discovers Poland
Andrew Apostolou makes fun of Thomas Friedman for being six months behind the news. Poland is pro-American. Who knew?
Friedman is sometimes silly, but I confess to being a fan. His book From Beirut to Jerusalem is sadly out of date (he's a little too optimistic about the Oslo peace process), but it's nevertheless a fantastic piece of Middle East reporting that reads like a suspenseful historical novel.
And maybe Friedman is a bit slow on Poland, but I enjoyed the piece anyway.
After two years of traveling almost exclusively to Western Europe and the Middle East, Poland feels like a geopolitical spa. I visited here for just three days and got two years of anti-American bruises massaged out of me. Get this: people here actually tell you they like America — without whispering. What has gotten into these people? Have all their subscriptions to Le Monde Diplomatique expired? Haven't they gotten the word from Berlin and Paris? No, they haven't. In fact, Poland is the antidote to European anti-Americanism. Poland is to France what Advil is to a pain in the neck. Or as Michael Mandelbaum, the Johns Hopkins foreign affairs specialist, remarked after visiting Poland: "Poland is the most pro-American country in the world — including the United States."I detected no anti-Americanism when I visited France. But I can't read French newspapers, and I hung around waiters and cab drivers, not Chirac and de Villepin. I'd still like to visit Poland, though. It's a beautiful country, and it's always nice to be welcomed. Posted by Michael J. Totten at December 28, 2003 11:09 AM
I'm glad to see you stick up for Thomas J., because I get tired of feeling as if I'm the only voice in the blogosphere who does. He takes it from everyone. The right assails him as a moronic, know-nothing, naive, PLO-loving, dupe of Arafat and Hamas -- which is nuts, especially coming from people who don't have a thousandth of the experience Friedman has in the Mideast -- and the left assails him as a Bush-loving, war-mongering, fantasising, anti-worker, globalizing, dupe of Paul Wolfowitz, which is also foolish and wrong. I don't recall the last time I saw someone say something positive about him before this piece; maybe a year ago?
I don't think it's at all fair to say he is being "slow" on Poland, however. He's been there many times, and written before about their pro-Americanism, as well as having written much on the place Poland and Eastern Europe have, while visiting NATO headquarters and elsewhere in Europe. This was merely a column about his current visit and what it felt like. I don't see how he can possibly be faulted for that, and projecting it as if he is "discovering" for the first time that Poland is pro-American is simply groundless.
On French anti-Americanism, I just posted a piece on the current piece on that subject in the Nation, which, as I said, can be well-read while using one's one Nation-reading filters. See here. Would be curious what you think.
But the Must Read piece is here. Don't miss this exposition on Saudi society and what it means for us.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 11:51 AMI have to agree that the Friedman bashing is pretty misplaced, and silly. The easy rebuttal to Apostolou is to simply point out that some things are worth repeating.
Friedman is respected for good reason. When he says something, you get the feeling that he has actually thought it through. It's not just some knee-jerk opinion. So, when Friedman points out, for example, that France is acting as an enemy of the United States amid the din from the predictable France-bashers and France-defenders, it's important not because it's new, but because a thoughtful, balanced commentator not otherwise predisposed to think so has said so.
Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at December 28, 2003 01:29 PMGary is right that many are critical of Tom F., but it's actually because he's so good, so often. And if both extremes think he's too partial to other sice, it's because he has real opinions and shares them. And sometimes I disagree and sometimes he's not quite right (not always the same).
Plus, of course, he's read. Maybe the most of any columnist on the ME now? (Also Gary's note on Saudi in-fighting is fine, too. But what to do?)
Slovakia, too, is pretty pro-American. Slovaks (& Czechs) were disappointed that Americans didn't save them when Warsaw Pact (Russian) tanks came in 68 to enforce solidarity. They're very enthusiastic about escaping to the West, meaning NATO and the EU -- but not so happy about replacing Moscow with Brussels.
Posted by: Tom Grey at December 28, 2003 02:00 PMI only read Friedman infrequently and must admit that most of the time I find him surprisingly naive. But he did hit (for me) one nail on the head that I am very grateful for. I thought I was the only person in the universe who "got" the real reason for the war in Iraq (which I support, by the way). Jonah Goldberg later gave the same reading and finally, to top it off, Victor Davis Hanson...so now I'm sure I'm right! Friedman's piece is June 4 2003 NYT, titled "Because We Could". I think it's well worth a read.
Posted by: Stephen at December 28, 2003 02:21 PMOopsie. Accidentally left the link out of my link to the Nation piece. Fixed now.
And, of course, I sometimes disagree with Tom Friedman. There's a considerable difference between disagreeing with someone with about as much international experience as anyone on the planet, one of the finest journalists in the world, with many years as bureau chief for the finest paper (flawed as it is) in the world in two of the most difficult-to-report-from capitals in the world, winner of multiple Pulitzer Prizes, and simply calling that person names based on reading a few columns and sitting in your chair chair at home. Disagree all you want with Friedman, people; just do so based upon facts and knowledge, not on prejudice and name-calling. (I just came from him being denounced, again, as a "moron," from a left perspective in Matthew Yglesias's comments.)
Friedman's prose -- and prose is something a great many people have no background in analyzing -- is very carefully extremely clear and simple. Prose style is not actually related to depth of thought, analysis, and knowledge behind it.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 02:40 PMThe Polish, like all of "new" Europe, appreciate the difference between the freedom championed by the United States, and the slavery they endured under the Soviet Union. They give the U.S the credit it deserves in defeating the USSR and saving Europe from communist tyrrany.
I'm fully aware how words like this play in the U.S. and Western Europe. They are trite, cliched, and possibly even "ignorant". But they, the Poles, don't see it that way. They don't take their freedoms for granted the way we do. They've known tyranny first hand, and suffered under it.
So when we talk about freedom in the West, it's received with a roll of the eyes, a smirk, or simply a silent dismissal. It's not a sign of political sophistication to talk about such things. Only the rubes in fly-over country talk about such hackneyed concepts. Honestly, do you know any Liberals who even own an American flag?
That's why the Poles are with us, more supportive of the U.S. than most Americans. Because they don't take for the granted the freedoms they now enjoy, the way we do.
Posted by: David at December 28, 2003 03:28 PM"Honestly, do you know any Liberals who even own an American flag?"
Yes, quite a few, including myself, and many friends.
Kindly read this, please.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 03:34 PMI know plenty of liberals who own American flags. And I know plenty of conservatives who don't.
I myself do not own a flag, but that doesn't make me unpatriotic.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 28, 2003 03:38 PMFrom Gary Farber's link: Wesley Clark says
You know, the American flag doesn't belong to the Republican Party.
Ain't that the truth. I know quite a few conservatives and quite a few leftists who don't understand that.
The American flag belongs to black lesbian feminist peaceniks just as much as it belongs veterans and GOP donors.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 28, 2003 03:44 PMMr. Friedman naivete is surpassed only by his ego. "From Beirut to Jerusalem" is a sorry little piece of apologetics for the PLO and the Israeli left, which by the way was wrong on almost every count. The book and the left. None of the predictions (of which he makes plenty in this book) has ever materialized and the Israeli public is paying the consequences of this foolish adventure named Oslo.
His love affair with the PLO has to be attributed to Stockholm syndrome, since he was PLO "hostage" while in Beirut, however, how do we explain "you broke into my desk drawer" Saudi peace plan? Do we attribute it only to sycophancy? Stupidity? Naivete? Or maybe Tom thinks that he can solve the M. East crisis all by himself?
And now Poland. Wow, how perceptive this man is. Oh, thank you your highness for enlightning us.
Posted by: elder of zion at December 28, 2003 03:49 PMThe problem is: Where do you place Americans who consider their hatred of America, often virulent reflexive hatred - and I know quite a few Americans who fall into this category - an integral part of their "love of country"?
Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at December 28, 2003 03:51 PMWhere does one place Americans who hate half of their compatriots and comfortably label them "traitors" for having differing views?
This can't be considered "virulent reflexive hatred," of course. It's thoughtful and reasoned hatred of "leftists," "liberals," and Democrats. It's thoughtful and reasoned hatred of people named "Clinton," "Gore," or "Dean."
That's different.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 04:18 PMThe American flag belongs to black lesbian feminist peaceniks just as much as it belongs veterans and GOP donors.
Let's be honest folks. You know as well as I do who waves the flags, and who burns them.
Exceptions notwithstanding. You can't run away from your past that easily.
Posted by: David at December 28, 2003 04:38 PMGary,
I don't take issue with your counterpoint. But you still haven't answered my initial question.
Re: attitudes towards the U.S., two countries that have recently shown support for the U.S. (both their governments and their publics) and have not received much attention or credit are Holland (a great Nation) and Denmark (idem).
Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at December 28, 2003 04:44 PMThe question is "Where do you place Americans who consider their hatred of America, often virulent reflexive hatred - and I know quite a few Americans who fall into this category - an integral part of their "love of country"?"?
I don't follow the question. Um, in their homes? Place them how? In some mental schema?
I will, however, bravely and forthrightly, risk my reputation by standing up and coming out against virulent reflexive hatred.
Please, hold your applause.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 05:07 PMI know plenty of liberals who own American flags.
Paul Wellstone leftists. Share core values, interpret their implications differently. Loyal opposition. When Wellstone died, Pete Domenici cried.
We should keep our eyes peeled for loyal opponents who might at first seem to be otherwise, so as to eschew divisive vitriol towards those who don't deserve it. This increases the quality of debate in the forum, which is meant to analyze the implications of the shared, core values. As for those we spy who don't share the core values, left or right, they can all go get bent. I wish we could replace them with Poles.
Posted by: Jim at December 28, 2003 05:58 PMPlace them how? In some mental schema?
What I mean is: Do you consider these people patriotic? Does the American flag "belong" to them? My sister, for example, is rooting for the Iraqi "opposition" over the U.S. imperialists. The U.S. is the greatest source of evil in the world today and is no better, in her view, than Nazi Germany or Bin Laden, indeed worse. Bin Laden may be bad, but he is only reacting to the greater offense of the U.S. She hates her country, ridicules people who display American flags, and threatens periodically to move to Canada. My brother feels the same way and teaches this view as a political science professor. My mother also shares this philosophy (She has moved to Canada.) All three want the United States to lose and be humiliated in Iraq. All three will vote for Howard Dean. All three, coincidentally or not, also want the oppressed Palestinians to be "liberated" from the Jewish terrorists who are the population of Israel. I was told last night by my aunt (who shares the same views) that the the Jews are natural born terrorists, it's in their blood, because it has become inbred through many centuries of European oppression. All of them say that they are fighting to save America from the evil of corporate capitalism. None of them are "oppressed" in any ordinary sense: indeed, they are all highly educated and work as upper middle class professionals (with the possible exception of my brother who is nevertheless quite well paid as a college professor).
I ask where do you "place" these people, since I'd rather think of a scale between true patriot on one end and traitor on the other, rather than think out loud that my own family members are just traitors. This is a true issue for me: Is this mere dissent? How do you regard people, especially your own friends and family - socially, rationally, morally - who virulently oppose their own country and openly advocate its defeat in a time of, umm, war? conflict?, on the basis of an entirely spurious, unserious and apparently irresponsible worldview? I also think this issue will only grow. If there is another major terrorist attack on the U.S., I know that all three family members mentioned above (and all those who think like them) will continue to at least excuse, if not openly root for, the terrorists and blame it all on the U.S.
Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at December 28, 2003 06:43 PMOkay, fair questions, Gabriel.
"What I mean is: Do you consider these people patriotic? Does the American flag 'belong' to them? My sister, for example, is rooting for the Iraqi 'opposition' over the U.S. imperialists. The U.S. is the greatest source of evil in the world today and is no better, in her view, than Nazi Germany or Bin Laden, indeed worse." Etc.
Certainly such people are extraordinarily mistaken, foolish, and confused, at best, in my view. Terribly wrong.
The views about Jews and Israel, while equally so, seem irrelevant to the question of patriotism towards America, it seems to me.
The question of whether the views about America are or can be "patriotic" seems less than simple to me.
Certainly as long as they are arguing in favor of what they view would be best for America and Americans, what would be most moral and honorable, a good case can be made that they are acting in patriotic fashion, however mistakenly and destructively and, of course, offensively to many people (pretty much so to me). But being an idiot and patriotic are not incompatible, from whatever the direction. Equally certain is that were one to disagree with the previous sentence, consistency would compel one to declare that many flag-waving people on the right are actually un-patriotic in arguing for policies that would, in fact, damage the US and its interests, or would damage American liberties and ideals. (One can, of course, argue that position separately, and reasonable people can disagree about specifics.)
On the other hand, if one is arguing that America is primarily evil, and that Americans should suffer, one starts to run up to and perhaps past the border of the inclusiveness of the term "patriotic," indeed. This is where one starts to get into the fine-tuning of the semantics of what the person really means in totality, and whether they have any kind of coherent view at all.
I'm sorry I don't have a simpler rule or answer on this.
One observation is that there is a long, long, long ground between where "patriotic" ends and "traitorous" begins.
"This is a true issue for me: Is this mere dissent?" So long as it is only rhetoric, and is non-violent, yes, surely. Free speech is a core value, however wrong-headed and offensive it is.
Nazis, communists, racists, anti-semites, child molesters, fans of the Cat In The Hat movie, they all get to have it, and it extends to boycotts, marches, holding up signs, etc. It ends when it crosses over to violence, or action that supports violence, or acts such as turning over militarily damaging information to an enemy in wartime. Rhetorical support for Osama bin Laden, or Adolph Hitler, is still free speech; financial support crosses the line. "Dissent" is pretty clearly defined.
So long as it is only dissent, then one may react with whatever emotions one feels is appropriate, though I think calling such people "traitors" is still across the line. "Supporters of our enemies," on the other hand, is just inside the line, and probably appropriate. But dialogue on either side, at that point, is possibly useless, in any case.
"How do you regard people, especially your own friends and family - socially, rationally, morally - who virulently oppose their own country and openly advocate its defeat in a time of, umm, war? conflict?, on the basis of an entirely spurious, unserious and apparently irresponsible worldview?"
With great regret, at the least. I'm sorry that these members of your family hold such sadly mistaken views, and I'm sorry for the pain this understandably causes you. I surely hope their views never take them past rhetoric, but, fortunately, it rarely does for most people. (Even in the heat of the Sixties, only a handful of people set bombs, however many more idiotically engaged in supporting rhetoric.)
I'm also sorry my answers may not be of help. But thank you for a civilized conversation.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 07:16 PMWell said, Gary. I would only suggest that patriotism isn't so broad a concept. Those who want America to replace all of its core values with new ones cannot be patriotic. They don't love who we are.
Gabriel's: Where do you place...?
Gabriel's sister would get along famously with my mother, who defiantly flew a UN flag on 9/12/03, in disgust with her neighbors' American flags. Having been a professor, I can tell you that Gabriel's brother's anti-Americanism is common in academia. I know quite a few Americans of various walks of life who hate the U.S. and think "we deserved it." NPR and the Dean phenomenon do their best to portray the Bush Doctrine as evil, when it is impossible to see how anyone could see it that way who didn't simply reject enough core American values to be labeled "anti-American".
Under these circumstances, while it is understandable that Gabriel's question anger the patriotic left (like a conservate being asked, "Do you or do you not distance yourself from the KKK?"), it perhaps should not (Gary's last post portraying an admirable example of such temperance). The question should be seen as a demand for the patriotic left to resolve and demarcate the legitimate, left side of the American forum. It has recently been effaced by the sheer bulk of anti-American thought in the forum. One needn't look far in the blogosphere for signs on the right of dismay at the loss of a bonafide American left and fear of an implosion of the Democratic Party and an and to the two-party system.
The loyal left are there; they've just been drowned out. If both they and the right realize this fact, perhaps they can cooperate in changing it, reserving their venom for those who deserve it, instead of wasting it on each other. The right should try to frame Gabriel's question such that it doesn't inflame and insult the wrong people. The loyal left should, like Gary, cut the right some slack when they get hit by this friendly fire on occasion, and they should take back their party.
Posted by: Jim at December 28, 2003 07:57 PMI meant "9/12/01".
Posted by: Jim at December 28, 2003 07:58 PMMy sister, for example, is rooting for the Iraqi "opposition" over the U.S. imperialists. The U.S. is the greatest source of evil in the world today and is no better, in her view, than Nazi Germany or Bin Laden, indeed worse.
It's because of Americans like her that I don't shy away from using the terms 'anti-American', 'unpatriotic, and even 'traitorous'. I know there are plenty of people out there who hold similar views, particularly on the Left.
And to despise your country to this extent and still take offense at being called 'anti-American' is wanting your cake and eating it too. It's infuriating. If these people don't like their patriotism questioned, then SHOW some friggin patriotism for crying out loud.
But if you hate your country to this extent, take some friggin ownership of your views for chrissakes. Admit you'd like to see America fail, be bold about it, and stop whining about being called upatriotic because that's exactly what you are. Be loud and proud, and I'll have more respect for you.
In fact, I have more respect for Al-Qauida than I do for these simpering whining two-faced, so-called "patriotic" Leftists who do everything in their power to undermine our country, and STILL whine about being called unpatriotic. Assholes. At least Al-Quaida is honest about what they think and feel.
And I'm sick and tired of people hiding behind their hatred of George Bush as an excuse to slam everything about this country. I don't love everything about my mom, but do I slam her at every turn? Give me a friggin break you traitorous scum.
Posted by: David at December 28, 2003 09:03 PM"It's because of Americans like her that I don't shy away from using the terms 'anti-American', 'unpatriotic, and even 'traitorous'."
Are you familiar with the concept of a sentence having both a subject and an object? It's rather important.
"Using the term" in regard to whom?
"Admit you'd like to see America fail, be bold about it, and stop whining about being called upatriotic because that's exactly what you are. Be loud and proud, and I'll have more respect for you."
I'm curious. Since you hold this view, you've probably held it for some time. You express your views online. Could you give URLS of three examples of your showing respect for such a person. One cite? I'm sure you must be simply stating facts on this, so surely there must be at mimum a dozen or so examples of you demonstrating such respect, and thus a couple of cites are no problem whatever.
"Give me a friggin break you traitorous scum."
It's good that you are so general, and avoid specifics. Specifics would only muddy your point. You are a splendid exemplar of the ideal of civil discourse that will so uplift our nation and polity. You are a credit to the right, and an example for the left!
What's most praiseworthy is that you avoided virulent reflexive hatred. Although, of course, only the left engages in that.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 09:37 PMGary, you respond with sophistry. I stand by what I said. If the shoe fits...
Posted by: David at December 28, 2003 09:59 PMGary,
Thanks for the response. (You should start a "Dear Gary" newspaper column for the politically disillusioned.)
I agree that we are dealing with a mostly non-violent social phenomenon. But, the issue of how to judge and treat people who openly side with(or at least sympathetically 'understand') the violent zealots who would destroy their own country will, I suspect, only grow in importance as these same people continue to seek redemption in the foregiveness of utter evil. I don't mean this as a constitutional question of free speech, but as a question of elementary morality. Do you want these people teaching your kids in elementary schools? I'm not so sure.
I also don't think that the central issue is patriotism per se. Rather, it's the defense of basic humanistic 'liberal' values that extend beyond the U.S. into Europe and even Asia (think of Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan...). I'm literally surrounded by people -especially here in France, where I live - who are opposing human freedom in the name of a presumably "purer" form of freedom, who oppose human rights in the name of a presumably truer form of human rights (that necessarily begins with freeing the oppressed of Guantanamo), who oppose third world development for the sake of organic carrot juice. Maybe that just goes to show the utter frivolity (and, one hopes, non-violent nature) of it all. But it's widespread enough to cause alarm. And for me, it certainly raises very elementary questions about, if not their morality, their sense of morality.
It reminds me of Alain Finkielkraut's theme of the anti-semites of the left who despise the Jews in the name of "anti-racism". I wonder whether that paradigm can't be extended to other aspects of the post-modern nihilist leftist theology.
Maybe the answer to the patriotism question is simply to consider these people criminally deluded, rather than merely criminal. I admire the call for civil discourse - I'm all for it - but David's 'virulent reflexive hatred' is directed at a group of people with whom he vehemently disagrees. That group's hatred - and I think they are far more numerous than we would like to believe - is directed at the entire society and nation. Big difference.
Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at December 28, 2003 10:10 PM"I stand by what I said."
I guess that means you can't provide any cites that you've actually demonstrated such respect. Darn. I am entirely disillusioned.
Gabriel: "(You should start a "Dear Gary" newspaper column for the politically disillusioned.)"
I got it right here and a rather not insignificant word-count of archived opinions.
"But, the issue of how to judge and treat people who openly side with(or at least sympathetically 'understand') the violent zealots who would destroy their own country will, I suspect, only grow in importance as these same people continue to seek redemption in the foregiveness of utter evil. I don't mean this as a constitutional question of free speech, but as a question of elementary morality."
But it remains a matter of free speech. The cure to bad speech is good speech. The cure to stupid speech is wise speech. The only cure in our free society is debate. God bless America for that!
"Do you want these people teaching your kids in elementary schools? I'm not so sure."
I don't want anyone inappropriate injecting their political opinions into elementary, or high, schools, whatever their political views. I also don't believe we should ask prospective teachers to submit their political views before being given jobs. If teachers behave inappropriately, they should be disciplined, up to the point of being fired, as necessary.
"Rather, it's the defense of basic humanistic 'liberal' values...."
I'm all for that, and it's a significant part of why I blog, though scarcely the whole (I also blog on plenty of friviolity, as I cover many of my interests.)
"...but David's 'virulent reflexive hatred' is directed at a group of people with whom he vehemently disagrees." Perhaps so. I am not a mind-reader, so I can't know otherwise, but he rather gives me the impression that he is directing it at a whole sweeping set of people he lumps under terms such as "leftists" (also "Democrats" or "liberals"? I don't know; perhaps not) without actually bothering to first ascertain whether they hold the views he be assumes they do. My impression may, of course, be entirely wrong, and if it is, I'd owe him an apology for presumption of my own.
I've written quite a lot of verbiage, by the way, on stupidities of the left as I see them. Plenty of lefty bloggers and folk condemn me as a vile war-mongering soft-on-Bush right-winger, just as I also get people sneering at me with the sort of terms David uses above for my vile, wimpy, Clintonian, Bush-hating, views.
Somehow I manage to carry on.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 10:25 PMTypo that changed meaning: I meant "inappropriate injecting," referring to the act, not the person.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 10:26 PMBut it remains a matter of free speech. The cure to bad speech is good speech.
I can't argue with that. I was looking at it from the standpoint of patriotism, ethics and mental sanity.
He rather gives me the impression that he is directing it at a whole sweeping set of people he lumps under terms such as "leftists".
You know. There are liberals who make sweeping negative generalizations of conservatives or Republicans. That does not mean they hate their country, their society, or side with groups that seek its destruction.
Plenty of lefty bloggers and folk condemn me as a vile war-mongering soft-on-Bush right-winger.
I know exactly what you mean. Is there an organized political movement that supports progressive politics and affirmatively and strongly recognizes the need to defend liberal democratic values?
Posted by: Gabriel Gonzalez at December 28, 2003 10:47 PM"Is there an organized political movement that supports progressive politics and affirmatively and strongly recognizes the need to defend liberal democratic values?"
Well, everyone knows that the Democratic Party isn't an organized political movement.
;-)
But seriously, yolks: color me cynical, but I don't believe it's possible to have a truly mass movement that doesn't have a lot of stupid, embarrassing, people attached to it. This is part of why I've always said I'd rather converse with someone who can converse intelligently and disagree with me than with someone who is "on my side" who is arguing only in emotional or illogical terms (another part is that I'd rather have my ideas challenged, as it's the only way I'll learn something new).
I think that the American two-party, first-past-the-post electoral system is one of the best (for us, anyway), and has many strengths (along with not a few weaknesses), but one of its aspects that inevitably follows is that the two parties must be, to be successful, grand coalitions of people with somewhat different foci, and inevitably there will be many internal conflicts. And, to win, you'll have allies you're embarrassed by.
In the end, people need to examine issues for themselves, and come to their own opinions, and not leave them to be either handed down from On High, or agreed with simply because a lot of one's peers have adapted them. Not that many people will argue against that, of course.
In the even further end -- that's a joke, son -- politics isn't about feeling pure; it's about accomplishing something. And that means compromising.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 28, 2003 11:05 PMPoland loves us and will continue to do so until we bone them, at which point they'll be like everyone else -- admiring of our power and freedoms and wary of our capacity to harm, if inadvertent.
Posted by: Kimmitt at December 29, 2003 01:59 AMGary's doing a great job -- but can I suggest use of the ancient Chinapanense art of HU MOR?
Gabriel, you need to find ways to laugh at your family's views. And laugh at Saddam's Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, and the Taliban.
Like, "You're so right, Mom. Those Taliban courts in Afghanistan were so much fairer than Gitmo -- and when women were executed by head shots that was the end of it. Swift, clean, humane. Much better than Bush ..."
The Left wants to claim to be against Saddam & Islamofascism AND against Bush's policy. That attitude needs to be laughed at. Constantly. Though agreeing that Bush & crony capitalism is not near perfect is prolly good, too.
Plus you can always add that under most Muslim gov'ts, you don't hear so much dissent in the (unfree) press!
Posted by: Tom Grey at December 29, 2003 02:15 AMI had a funny moment when I read the title of this post. I accidentally read "Portland" instead of "Poland." Ha!
Posted by: karrie at December 29, 2003 01:05 PMWhat's most praiseworthy is that you avoided virulent reflexive hatred. Although, of course, only the left engages in that.
Nah, I wasn't sneering at you for hating Bush and supporting Clinton. My contempt was directed at those unnamed individuals who subscribe to your sister's America-hating views.
Of course, your criticism does not cut both ways. You consider the hatred displayed in THOSE views to be merely a "splendid exemplar of the ideal of civil discourse that will so uplift our nation and polity."
Posted by: David at December 29, 2003 05:18 PM"Nah, I wasn't sneering at you for hating Bush and supporting Clinton. My contempt was directed at those unnamed individuals who subscribe to your sister's America-hating views."
I think you're rather confused as to who you are responding to. Among other things.
Incidentally, I don't "hate Bush" and my "support" for Clinton was engaged on some policies, and on other policies I opposed him. The same may be said of my "support" for President Bush. I realize this is a very strange way to react to a President, given that people are instead supposed to regard one as the Anti-Christ and automatically support the other in all things.
"Of course, your criticism does not cut both ways. You consider the hatred displayed in THOSE views to be merely a 'splendid exemplar of the ideal of civil discourse that will so uplift our nation and polity.'"
And you derive this conclusion from what evidence, exactly? Remember, show your work.
Posted by: Gary Farber at December 29, 2003 09:20 PMOften the test of courage is not to die, but to live.
Posted by: Dowsett Morgan at March 17, 2004 05:29 PMIf you would be unloved and forgotten, be reasonable.
Posted by: Osner Miriam at May 2, 2004 12:54 PMWhat else can i say after all this ?!
Posted by: McCargo Janine at May 3, 2004 12:26 AMYou are free and that is why you are lost.
Posted by: Heintz Adam at May 20, 2004 02:18 AMTo be poor without bitterness is easy; to be rich without arrogance is hard.
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