December 27, 2003
Tragedy in Iran
The AP says the death toll in the Iran earthquake could be as high as 40,000. That's two thirds the number of Americans killed in the Vietnam War.
The Bam fortress, the world's largest mud-brick structure, is gone.
When the first reports talked of 20 000 dead,my response was:"that's impossible".I guess I got to believe it.
But read this quote from the AP story by Akbar Alavi, the mayor of Kerman, the provincial capital.
"We greatly welcome any assistance from the United States. We welcome assistance from all countries except Israel," Alavi said.
When the Columbia shuttle exploded,the Iranian foreign ministry spokesman sent condolences to all home nations of the astronauts - except Israel.USA may be the Great Satan,but at least it's not populated by the you-know-whom.
Posted by: Jussi Hämäläinen at December 27, 2003 10:19 AMAnd yet 40,000 dead Iranians would be just a middling month in the Iran-Iraq war a few years ago. Not that that would be a justification for overthrowing the bad guys on either side or nothin'. And anyway, we vaguely supported Saddam then, therefore it's ALL our fault.
Posted by: Mike G at December 27, 2003 08:35 PMThe Bam fortress has been there for about 2,000 years. If this was an earthquake prone place Bam would have fallen from cumulative damage centuries ago. So, why a big quake now?
Posted by: Fred Boness at December 27, 2003 10:16 PM> "We greatly welcome any assistance from
> the United States. We welcome assistance
> from all countries except Israel," Alavi said.
This is very sad. This would be a sad but great opportunity to try to heal the ties between the two countries. AFAIR, when there was that big earthquake in Turkey, the Greeks immediately offered help, and the Turks have accepted it. Well, I guess, Iran blew an opportunity now.
It is a sad day: both because the earthquake, and also because Iran's behaviour.
Vilmos
Posted by: Vilmos Soti at December 27, 2003 10:48 PMSo, why a big quake now?
It was a plot by the evil zionists to once again "humiliate" the muslim peoples. They used the latest in HAARP technology for controlling the weather and earthquakes.
Speaking of humiliation:
earthquake in California-12 dead
earthquake in Iran-40,000 dead
It appears that even the earthquakes are determined to "humiliate" the muslim peoples.
bunch of racist earthquakes
Posted by: David at December 27, 2003 11:28 PMThis would be a sad but great opportunity to try to heal the ties between the two countries.
You are under the impression that Iran desires a healing between the two countries?
That has to be one of the most naive things I've heard in a few months at least.
Posted by: David at December 27, 2003 11:31 PMFred, I wondered the same thing. According to Alireza the most extensive damage is actually to portions of the structure that have been reconstructed over the past few decades. The main skeleton of the original structure has not been harmed.
Posted by: grs at December 28, 2003 04:55 AMThe Iranian regime and the German Nazi regime use Jew hatred for the same reason. The Jews are an all purpose scapegoat for the failings of the nation.
Unlike Nazi Germany however, the average Iranian citizen doesn't believe in the regimes Jew hatred. Their logic is that if the regime hates the Jews they can't be all that bad. One of the first actions that Iran will take once the theocracy is eliminated will be to re-establish ties to Israel.
Posted by: Reid at December 28, 2003 07:01 AM> You are under the impression that Iran
> desires a healing between the two countries?
No, I am not. I was not talking about the intentions of Iran. I was talking about a rare opportunity blown. Actually, I was not surprised at all. This is what many of us expected, especially if we think what Rafajansari said a couple of years ago (about nuking Israel the day Iran has the Bomb). But still, it was a chance blown.
Vilmos
Posted by: Vilmos Soti at December 28, 2003 11:46 AMJew hatred and hatred for Zionism is not the same thing. It may be in many Arab states, but not in Iran where there is a sizeable Jewish minority (30,000 or so) with representatives in parliament. There may be many reasons to take issue with Iran's refusal to accept Israeli aid, but equating its shunning of Israel with Jew-hatred is plain wrong. It's kind of like saying if you hate the Taliban you hate Islam (which is what people like Bin Laden would want everyone to believe incidentally). Even in Friday prayer sermons in Iran, which is dominated for the most part by conservatives, the speakers often emphasize that they speak out against Zionism as a racist ideology, not against Judaism and Jews per se.
Posted by: TheFarce at December 28, 2003 12:10 PMHow many Palestinians were killed in Jordan under King Abdullah's rule?
So I guess Iran cutoff all diplomatic ties with Jordan?
Your excuses for Iranian anti-semitism are a joke.
Zionism is a racist ideaology? Oh really?
I also get a good chuckle out of the fatc that I know of the medecine, supplies, and help that is going into Iran, undoubtedly Israelis and Jews play a major part in either it's development, research, marketing, distribution, etc., etc.
Stop excusing anti-semitism masquerading as "anti-Zionism" or whatever. It's BS.
Posted by: yeahright at December 28, 2003 12:52 PMTheFarce,
Get educated.
Iran hates Israel because it is a Jewish state. They are the bigots. According to the mullahs, Jews are OK as long as they are second class citizens living under Islamic rule. It is called dhimmitude and is part of Islam. Just ask non-moslems who live in Islamic nations.
Israel's President and Defense Minister were born in Iran. It is impossibile for them to attain any position of real political power in the land of their birth even before the theocrats seized power.
Interesting that you bring up Dhimmis, Reid. Historically, that category is actually not very different from the way Israel treats so-called "Arab-Israelis". They don't need to serve in the army, and don't pay Islamic tax (khums + zakat), and instead pay the dhimmi tax. However, that's not the way it works in Iran right now.
As far as representation in parliament is concerned, Jews/Chrstians/Zoroastrians would never have a chance of being elected if they chose to run on independent tickets (which they can). It's because they're given a permanent quota as part of their minority status that they can get the representation they have. As far as getting to the top echelons of power is concerned, are you telling me that a Muslim can get any real position of power in Israel? Puhleeze. If Moshe Katsav or Shaul Mofaz, the two Iranians you mention, happened to be Muslims, they would never rise to the status they have now.
Zionism is a racist ideology because it rests on the claim that Jews have a unique right to the land of Palestine. As soon as Palestine becomes a unified state where everyone has the same right to vote, and the "demographic" problem is not a problem any more, Zionism will be dead and democracy shall thrive.
Posted by: TheFarce at December 28, 2003 02:28 PMAs soon as Palestine becomes a unified state where everyone has the same right to vote...
I would agree that this would be the best system if more than half the Palestinians did not repeatedly say in opinion polls that the destruction of the Jewish state was the number one political objective.
The two peoples cannot live together right now, and the vicious war there ought to be proof enough of that. So the two peoples will have to split that land. Only the far-right messianic Zionists have a problem with it. The majority of Israelis support a two-state solution. There will be peace when the majority of Palestinians agree with them.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 28, 2003 03:12 PMTheFarce,
About half of the Jews in Israel are the same race as the Arabs. So calling Israel a racist state is factually wrong and is just a bigoted slogan. Like calling Israel a Nazi or aparthied state. Being Jewish is BOTH a religion and an ethnicity. Judaism is a tribal religion. Just like Shinto or Zoroatrianism. And anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism.
You talk about Iran's political system as if it is a democracy. It is not. In order to run for public office you must first be approved by the theocrats. Then once elected any laws passed must then be approved by the theocrats. In reality, the Iranian parliament is just a consultive body.
Your point that a Muslim could never reach a top level of political power in Israel is theoretically wrong but practically correct. But the only Arabs in the middle east who participate in a TRUE representative democracy are Israeli Arabs.
Posted by: Reid at December 28, 2003 03:45 PMZionism is a racist ideology because it rests on the claim that Jews have a unique right to the land of Palestine.
Israel is perhaps the most racially diverse country on the face of the earth. For someone to accuse zionism of being "racist," while ignoring the racial and religious homogeneity of Arab countries is the real farce.
As soon as Palestine becomes a unified state where everyone has the same right to vote, and the "demographic" problem is not a problem any more, Zionism will be dead and democracy shall thrive.
It won't be a problem for the Arabs, but clearly it will for the Jews. And the death of zionism is the goal isn't it? As if we didn't know. As if the Israelis don't know. Like they'll just lie down and let the likes of you have your way. Don't you wish.
As far as getting to the top echelons of power is concerned, are you telling me that a Muslim can get any real position of power in Israel? Puhleeze.
How many jewish members of parliament can you name in the arab countries? Puhleeze right back at you. If you judged Israel by the same forgiving standards you judge it's neighbours by, Israel wins everytime time.
Posted by: David at December 29, 2003 08:43 AMThe projection of 30,000 dead in Iran is tragic. That's the equivalent of two summers in France. ( I know, it was mean, but, one should never pass up the opportunity to belittle France )
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