That's well past glass-half-empty sort of thinking and straight on into hating America. If not America, then at least Bush.

Just more sad evidence for the complete breakdown of any sort of critical thinking on the part of people who should know better.

How about this response:
Jan 2003 = 45 dictators (in the UN).
Dec 2003 = 43 dictators (minus Saddam, minus Charles Taylor of Liberia)

Dictators are little bullies, afraid of free speech, afraid of words. Mental cowards.

A World Without Dictators. In my Lifetime.

See the fine Journal note, One Down-Dozens More to Go about Mark Palmer book “Breaking The Real Axis of Evil.”

It is a tragedy that the UN is now reduced to an empty edifice and people who profess liberal values maintain the illusion that it is still a vital, functioning institution. We live in looking glass times, and distorted images are presented as reality.

42, Tom (if Georgia counts).

Orwell would be proud of Mr. Normand.

Tisk, Tisk, Tisk, Michael. This is a good Fisking, but really, do you think it's fair to pick on the "special" kids?

I particularly like how the author links the aftermath of WWII to support of his wish list of government programs. Nice spin. Total rubbish, but nice spin.

Let's not pick on Lord Sauron now. After all, at the end of the book, he loses his ring and his castle!

'This means bypassing the "useless debating society" formerly known as the Security Council, when it refuses to rubber-stamp the unlawful invasion of Iraq.'

Here is the list of Security Council member states:

Algeria
Angola
Benin
Brazil
Chile
China
France
Germany
Pakistan
Philippines
Romania
Russian Federation
Spain
United Kingdom
United States

You are, of course, free to draw your own conclusions as to the value of this august body's opinion on a particular matter, such as, say, Iraq.

Yep. We got Hussein. Sure, we might have have accidentally wasted some civilians, but in the end we did it. Oh, I'm sure Bush will follow this through until the end. Establishing liberal democracy in a culture that's never known it is simple stuff. And we did such a nice job of handing off power to violent warlords in Afghanistan. Afterall, Ismail Khan is an "appealing person."

It's really not that bad that we gave an authoritarian strongman in Uzbekistan massive loans to buy guns so he'd join the "Coalition of the Willing." And hey, selling torture equipment to countries that torture people is best just ignored. Letting Liberian dictator Charles Taylor hangout in Nigeria while we throw smiles at human rights abusing president Olusegun Obasanjo is cool, too.

Our network of secret military prisons is nothing to be worried about. Nor is the fact that two Americans are being held without trial or counsel. And it's best to just let Sharon do whatever he wants, because all palestinians are terrorists.

Given the lessons of history, the Bush administration cares deeply about human rights. That why Bush Sr. and Reagan closed their eyes while Hussein committed genocide on the Kurds in '88. And it's more important to our security to invade a Iraq than to get tough on a certain soon-to-be-dictator in Pakistan.

Listen Totten, do you give one wit about any of this, or are you just intoxicated by the edge of contrarianism? This isn't glass-half-empty thinking, this is caring. I'm gald you support taking down genocidal regimes. So do I. But your clash of the civilizations thinking and yay-yay nationalism isn't making things better, it's just ignorant. Why not strive for something better instead of settling for this crap?

It's easy and fun to laugh at the antiwar left, and it'll be even easier if Dean loses 45 or more states, and elections are held next year in Iraq, as seems quite possible. The better thing to do is ask why so many people in the world agree with the viewpoints contained in Mr. Normand's article, should we care, and if we should, what should we do about it? There is a worldwide revulsion at US military supremacy and US moral exceptionalism -- crudely, the idea that we are an intrinsically good people and that what's good for America is good for humanity. For the most part, I don't share that revulsion, because I don't think it reflects the view of most Americans, who indeed are capable of self-criticism. Then I listen to or read Republicans. The main neoconservative/Republican Party inclination seems to be respond to accusations of hypocrisy or bad motives with a big smile and raised middle fingers. This is not justified or wise.

I like to watch vicious thugs go down the tubes as much as anyone else reading this, and I share Bush's commitment to democracy in the Middle East (and his apparent commitment to democracy building and self determination in the occupied territories of Palestine as well). I oppose him on global warming, the test-ban treaty, and the International Criminal Court. I also oppose his condescenscion ("it's against international law? well, i guess i better call my lawyer") and his goddam smirk.

In other words, my sympathies are divided. I seek political alliance with those who feel the same way.

One underlying theme is that the Rights Declaration is nonsense. To say that everyone has a "right to health, education, housing, work, social security and adequate livelihood" is mere verbiage. To have a right to X is to have a claim that someone else either give or allow you to have X. In other words, if anyone on the planet doesn't have one of the goodies, then we have to allow him to have it or give it to him. But merely allowing him to have it - we certainly aren't standing in his way - is not what the Declaration means, quite obviously. It was written as a complaint about the fact that people lack even though no one is standing in their way of acquiring. So, the Declaration says that the rich ought to provide those who lack with "health, education, housing, work, social security and adequate livelihood." The U.S. persists in not providing these things to everyone. It is in violation of the Declaration.

With one simple declaration the U.S. can be defined into villainy? Hogwash. The Declaration is mere leftist propaganda. It contains no substantial arguments and is devoid of philosophical depth. But it certainly serves as a foil for some a**hole to stir up more anti-Americanism here at home.

Harry,

You're right about a lot of that stuff. But if you agree that we have the most destructive military machine in history and are leading the global assault on human rights, sorry, but you're off the deep end.

And what's this about my "yay yay nationalism?" I'm an anti-anti-American. I'm not even remotely a nationalist.

This is my favorite section of the Declaration.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

A giant, horrible scam has been perpetrated on the world.

It's called the United nations.

Jim said "[The universal declaration of human rights] was written as a complaint about the fact that people lack even though no one is standing in their way of acquiring."

There are tremendous forces standing in the way of third world development and the reduction of poverty. One of them is unfair protectionist trade policies of the US, Europe, China and Japan. Another is the policy of opposing raising INTERNATIONAL labor standards.
Peoples and nations should indeed complain LOUD AS HELL about poverty and want, specifically directing their words to those who deny or ignore the issue. And they will.

The Declaration is a map of where we ought to be in the future. It's just another part of the long process of mankind crawling out of caves and becoming civilized...

Harry

Spot on.

My POV/Question for Americans tho - Your constitution is being steadily eroded. Even when the KGB was putting several hundred agents a yr into the US these rights weren't affected. One admittedly large, tragic and horrifc incident later and your gov panics and starts to erode those freedoms (as did mine and we have fewer to lose). 9/11 was not Pearl Harbour. Nor is the war on terror, war with Saddam our summer of 1940. So this rush to erode your rights is...a bit over the top and just possibly, just possibly something you might live to regret in harder times - for which there will be many - this is going to be a difficult century.

There are tremendous forces standing in the way of third world development and the reduction of poverty.

There certainly are. I just got back from one of those places a week and a half ago. 80 percent of Guatemala lives in poverty. It is really all their own fault on an individual basis? How could that be? 36 years of just-ended war and dictatorship certainly has something to do with it.

Marksus is right about labor standards, too. In Latin America they are a horror show.

Neil and Harry,

Jose Padilla was just released from prison.

80 percent of Guatemala lives in poverty. It is really all their own fault on an individual basis?

Of course not. But it's not your fault either. Nor is it your fault if a creep in Guatemala keeps a horribly unsafe shop for his workers.

No, I'm not off the deep-end, I just bother to pay attention. You're right about one thing: America is good to its citizens. But if you think we've played the international game on the level, then you need to read a little more of what your friend Hitchens wrote before 2001.

Look, we're opposing the ICC (wait, not just opposing it but threatening countries that support it), opposing the land mine treaty, dropping out the ABM, ignoring the U.N., refusing to try Hussein in an international court, exporting arms like crazy, preparing to build new nukes, and have now reserved and practiced the idea that we can, unilaterally, blow the living shit out of any country we choose. And, like I mentioned, propping up dictators in Uzbekistan, letting Taylor go and pulling out of Liberia, paying off warlords in Afghanistan, high fiving Pakistan, chill'n with Indonesia... There's hardly a country in the world we won't blow for a couple smiles.

And you say I'm off the deep end? Jesus H Christ man, your idea of human rights is yelling at a Nation columnist for caring about international law! It may make you the darling of the warblogger crowd but it's not very smart. Take a closer look and then try a little harder.

Michael, that's great news.

Jim -- You are indeed responsible for unsafe factories run by Guatemalean (or American) creeps if you buy their products, and support trade pacts that ensure that Americans will buy their products and that they will not be subject to effetive labor and environmental regulations.

Markus: Yes. I imagine you and I would disagree a little about the details as to what counts as just labor and environmental regulations, but I agree with what you just said.

Bravo, Michael. Big, fat target, but no less in need of hitting.

harry wrote:
"No, I'm not off the deep-end, I just bother to pay attention."

It would help if that attention were not paid looking through a straw. For example, we may well have the strongest military machine in the history of Man, but it was not us who blew up the thousand-year-old Buddhas, nor decimated the population of Cambodia.

International relations are a little more complex than you might imagine. If we supported - or at least didn't oppose - Saddam in the 80s, that does not mean that we should not topple him now. In fact, it puts us under an obligation to topple him, in order to correct our mistakes.

I notice in passing, that Iran seems eager to sign on to a nuclear inspection program. They would definitely not have done so if Iraq were still Saddam's playground.

Take off the blinders.

Padilla released? I don't think so. He will be transferred to civilian custody pending criminal charges.

And you say I'm off the deep end? Jesus H Christ man, your idea of human rights is yelling at a Nation columnist for caring about international law!

No Harry, our idea of human rights is actually GIVING those rights to humans (tens of millions of them, and counting). Your idea is convening a council to appoint a group to study a proposal to investigate the viability of perhaps passing a resolution that will, in the most strident verbiage possible, give said tyrant a rather nasty tongue lashing.

We've tried your way and Lake Victoria is full of corpses.

Its articles like this that drive the thinking man away from the left. Its also why I stopped reading "The Nation". It becomes harder and harder to call oneself a Democrat or a liberal when faced with the lunacy of our party. I would hate for us to be so crushed in November that it takes decades to recover...

However with inane crap like this that seems more and more probable.

Sam

As far as Jose Padilla goes, here's the full text of the article I found via Instapundit.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal appeals court, in a harsh blow to the Bush administration's anti-terrorism policies, ruled on Thursday that the president does not have the power to detain an American citizen seized on U.S. soil as an enemy combatant.

The U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals, in a 2-1 ruling, ordered the government to release Jose Padilla, who is being held incommunicado in a Navy brig, from military custody within 30 days.

It's a big vague at the end what will happen to him, but it does look like maybe he is just being moved.

See Harry can actually find Iraq on a map, unlike you nationalist morons. Yeah yeah Saddam is gone (along with all his public works and welfare, say you neocons never mention that now Iraq is at the mercy of dog eat dog capitalism instead of Saddam's progressive welfare programs) but Bush is still stoopid and smirks like a chimp. Hail to the free market in Iraq, where they now have corporate rule. But I guess we freed a few fascist reationary kurds and shiites, so lets give Bushitler a hand! (while he robs our rights to social security, a right to high wages, etc)

Very funny, NationFan, but Harry was really serious. It's not polite to parody him. Wait a minute.... Harry! You dog! You had your tongue so far in your cheek it hurt! I finally took a clue from the line about how we think we have a right to blow the living shit out of any country we choose. I should have taken a hint when you implied that opposing the ICC was unarguably evil. Duh! My bad.

NationFan had to come waving his arms with "Bushitler" as if to say, "Hello! Anyone ever heard of parody?" Very clever, guys.

It may be unclear at this point what will be done with Padilla, but I think it highly unlikely that a catch-and-release policy will be put into effect.

Obviously enough, I think Nationfan's idea of "progressive welfare reform" in Iraq, etc. is complete quackery.

I shouldn't have to state the obvious, but these days I'm an America-hating, objectively pro-terrorist Islamofascist if I don't. Contrary to Prof. Reynolds' ideas, it's possible to oppose the war and not be a part of the fascist-coddling ANSWER set.

it's possible to oppose the war and not be a part of the fascist-coddling ANSWER set.

Chill, Harry. Everyone here knows that, and so does Glenn Reynolds.

Hey NationFan, you talk about Saddam's public works and welfare, i gues you're talking about the thousands of people killed by his regime. And maybe it's a good thing that the country in dog eat dog capitalism, instead of having the opinions of their dictator shoved down their throats, and being killed if they don't agree. But i have to agree with you on one point, we probably did free many fascist kurds and shiites, but would you really have a few people who can do nothing to you, or Saddam dropping a nuke on your head?
And how the heck is Bush robbing us of our rights to social security and high wages? Last time I checked, the government gives us those rights, they aren't garaunteed by our civil liberties.
Last point:
Hitler=over six million dead
Bush=none

It is funny to hear people rail on about Padilla and then want the US to join the ICC. Which pretty much throws all of their rights gauranteed by the Constitution of this country out the freaking window.

If you are willing to do this and allow other countries on this planet to make laws for us, then you can move to another country.

But me, I think I would just leave the law making to people we can put into and remove from office thank you very much.

The ICC is just one big ruse to check American Power, plain and simple. And all of you talking about Afghanistan remember the UN is in there big time. No one talks about the Mess the UN and the former President left in Kosovo. And I bet none of you were screaming of an American Empire then.

But hey, if you want a one world government, I am all for it, if they adopt the Constitution of the United States, become a State and then we can have a one world government and I would support it. Until such a time, people France have no say in who I vote or who writes our laws.

And Global Warming, maybe you should read that speech from Michael Crichton, were he pretty much makes a shambles of Global Warming and Environmentalism. He calls it the religion of this day.

http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote05.html

Micheal-

Do you realize you have now drawn comments from The Nation's entire subscriber base with a single post? That's got to be some kind of record.

And be careful. Don't rag on The Nation too much or Cockburn will give you the Dreaded Hitchens Treatment and call you fat.

Remember those boys, excuse me, persons, play for keeps.

and I share Bush's commitment to democracy in the Middle East

I submit that your commitment to democracy in the Middle East far exceeds this President's. Certainly your commitment to democracy worldwide is much greater.

"I shouldn't have to state the obvious, but these days I'm an America-hating, objectively pro-terrorist Islamofascist if I don't. Contrary to Prof. Reynolds' ideas, it's possible to oppose the war and not be a part of the fascist-coddling ANSWER set."

Harry, I know Totten came to your defense, but filling your comments with crap such as how the US has "practiced the idea that we can, unilaterally, blow the living shit out of any country we choose" makes you sound EXACTLY like them. Try making some intelligent statements against the war if you don't want to be lumped in with them...

Michael is absolutely right. The issue is not whether the United States is all good or all bad. This issue is whether the glass is half full. Those who claim the glass is empty - and there are far too many of them - aren't progressives. They couldn't recognize progress even if it kicked them in the head. "Let the people be damned, as long as we can have our perpetual revolution."

Talk is cheap. Criticism is the cheapest kind of talk. I've become sick and tired of these people's blathering narcissistic moralism. One truly wonders whether they are seriously even interested in human rights. They have lost the moral highground. They have lost the monopoly on hurling the epithet "fascist". They're just protecting the sanctity of the nation state in the international order because that seems convenient now to attacking the United States.

I think Harry raised an interesting point when he mentioned America's current support for unsavory characters like Afghan warlords such as Ismail Khan and dictators like Uzbekistan's Karimov. Of course, Harry raised it in a snotty way that implied that he was merely using it as a way to sling mud at Bush's foreign policy, not as a serious critique or position.

But it does require some speculation. Where will the next source of "blow-back" come from? Are we complicit in the human rights violations of our "allies." None of them rules with the kind of totalitarian terror and brutality that Saddam used but one can never be sure what will happen in the future.

But if Harry and his ilk are going to scream about what a disaster Afghanistan is becoming, they have to put forward a credible argument that confronting the warlords (all of them?) and maybe even fighting them would produce better results. Why would it be better for us and for the Uzbeks to alienate Karimov at this point in time? Should we attack him? Sanction him? But Harry doesn't seem like the kind of guy who wants to consider such options since they are morally grey. He'd rather jump up and down about how Bush is a hypocrite for deposing Saddam while dealing with others who are... um, not Nobel Peace Prize candidates. Charles Taylor is in exile and Bush strongly advocated for his removal. But Harry who opposed the invasion of Iraq is pissed that we didn't give him the Saddam treatment. Or maybe he's just pointing out what he considers to be inconsistency. It's a shame that a smart and informed guy like Harry can't see the absurdity of his own writing, but he apparently feels that maintaining his own moral purity is preferable to debating realistic policy.

I'm no Afghanistan expert but I think it extremely unlikely that we would get anywhere by demanding that every warlord, clan and ethnic group immediately surrender all weapons and disband immediately. Dealing with unsavory leaders is an unavoidable moral hazzard that is necessary for our own security and eventual improvements in those areas.

Right now there is a constitutional convention being held in Kabul. 2 million refugees have returned in the last 2 years. Despite the failure to transform Afghanistan into the Central Asian Switzerland after 2 whole years, things are objectively better there for us and most Afghanis as well. But Nation readers have their talking points and plenty of mud to sling.

harry,

Much of your criticism is unfair. The essential point is that the US is approaching many of these issue as a grown up (i.e., one who because of his position has to act with responsibility). To take just two of your issues (which is not to imply that I agree with the rest of them): (1) The US opposes the ICC because it is a joke and because it is intended to be used as an anti-American platform by the lunatic left. As an example, indictments could not be filed fast enough against Tony Blair for Iraq War 2, while no such claims were ever filed against Saddam Hussein. Given that, how can I be expected to take the ICC seriously? (2) The US opposes the anti-landmine treaty because that treaty is inconsistent with security requirements. The most obvious example is North Korea, with its mad dictator and huge army. Are you prepared to commit an additional 100,000+ troops to the Korean Peninsula to keep an eye on the North Koreans in exchange for removing our defenses?

"Neil and Harry,

Jose Padilla was just released from prison."

Actually, he was not released. He was ordered released by the second circuit appeals court. However, the Bush administration and John Ashcroft disagree with that decision and the whitehouse spokesperson called it a "troubled and flawed" decision.

I am not sure if this comment was to make us feel better that one guy might be released in 30 days after having his rights trampled for about a year and a half. He is also not going free in 30 days. He will likely be charged in civilian court and get access to a lawyer (the best money can buy...not) as should have happened in the first place.

Keep in mind, none of these events will repeal the Patriot Act which is what I think Harry and Neil were referring to.

I guess I continue to be amazed at the idea that an empire (I don't mind that word. It was good enough for the Hittites and the Brits.) should or could or would EVER be run as some kind of altruistic charity. If that's what you contend (as at the Nation) then your message will continue to appeal only to the kind of people that kind of message will appeal to.

The Nation's subscription list went up from 83 million to 114 million (approximately) before the US dropped one bomb in Afghanistan. Does that mean they're war profiteers? Being permanent oppositionists is a growth industry. Michael Moore can't wait for his next dissent to be stifled so he can make another million bucks.

Notice how the Nation fan got right into the ad hominems. Namecalling, that'll win an argument every time.

But as Nietzsche said, the Ubermensch does not argue, he asserts!

The Nation's subscription list went up from 83 million to 114 million (approximately) before the US dropped one bomb in Afghanistan. Does that mean they're war profiteers?

Only if they ginned up the war. (They obviously did not.)

They lost my subscription, by the way, but I still get The New Republic.

If 'The Nation's' subscription list increased prior to the war?

It must have been due to their extensive coverage of Code Pink's anti-war performance art and the "Lysistrata" revivals. Serious stuff, worthy of more mainstream coverage.

Good thing we have them around.

Pls source those numbers for The Nation circulation. Subscription list of 114 million means about a third of the country is subscribing, no?

I started to read this column in The Nation too. Then I almost vomited, so I had to quit.

At no point in American history since WWII has an administration coddled fewer dictators, and to a lesser degree.

Except, you know, under the previous Administration.

correction: 114,000. not million.

sorry, posted late last night after bed time. my bad. but numbers are otherwise pretty close i think. before afghan war means during initial buildup in the months after 9/11 before a shot was fired.

and "war profiteer" was meant sarcastically, michael.

"war profiteer" was meant sarcastically, michael.

I know, I just felt like answering anyway for some reason...

I'm glad you clarified subscription numbers for The Nation, Miklos. THe thought of every third person in North America reading The Nation caused me no little distress.

No Kimmitt. Clinton coddled more dictators and more closely. Clinton coddled Saudi Arabia more than PRes. Bush does. Clinton coddled the Azeri leader Aliyev more than Pres. Bush does his son (since the last 'fraudulent' election). Clinton did very little to stop the terrrorist activities and the brutal policies of the Taliban. Clinton coddled the Iranian mullahs more than Bush. Clinton looved Arafat. These are just a few changes. It wasn't necessarily all Clinton's doing. Sec. of State Albright worked to fashion quite a few coddling policies. So you are wrong, Kimmitt.

Clinton coddled Saudi Arabia more than PRes. Bush does.

I'd like examples of this, please -- it seems that both Clinton and Bush were depressingly close to the House of Sa'ud.

Clinton coddled the Azeri leader Aliyev more than Pres. Bush does his son (since the last 'fraudulent' election).

Clinton was prohibited by law from sending any money or other such to the Azeri government and had his State Department work tirelessly to end the conflict and support democratization in the region. Bush may agree or he may not, but there was definitely a "best of a bad situation" vibe there.

Clinton coddled the Iranian mullahs more than Bush.

You are correct that Clinton did not stupidly antagonize the Iranian mullahs, instead pursuing a policy of engagement. But at no point was Clinton's goal anything other than a free and democratic Iran, and any claims to the contrary are not based in reality.

Clinton looved Arafat.

Nobody loved Arafat. Clinton loved the idea of a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and believed that Arafat, as the duly elected leader of the Palestinian Authority, was the path to that peace. Arafat is a bad man -- a terrorist, even -- but he is not a dictator. So you're wrong twice over here.

And it was Clinton that intervened in Haiti to eject Cedras, Clinton who pushed us into Kosovo (despite Republican objections), an action which eventually lead to the ouster of Milosevic, and Clinton who continued to attempt to deal with Saddam Hussein, containing him and denying him the capacity to produce chemical and biological weapons.

William Jefferson Clinton, for all his flaws and failings, was a man who was deeply committed to worldwide peace and democracy. He succeeded and he failed in various places, and Lord knows we didn't know what to do with ourselves in a post-Cold War world, but he lives in the same insane world we live in and he did what he could to make it a little better.

Yep. Rocketing aspirin factories does that.

My question, as always, to those who favor resolving all conflict through the auspices of the UN is ... who will be in charge of enforcing the UN's resolutions (provided a) they ever get to one and b) have any real intention of carrying them through).

Seriously, does anyone have an answer to that?

Dennis Kucinich refers to pulling our troops out and replacing them with an equal number of bluehats, but ... does the UN have 100,000 combat/police-ready troops at its disposal to drop in on Iraq?

This is a practical question that requires thinking out complaints to a logical conclusion.

Look, the US has the most effective and powerful armed forces in the world ... and even we are spread thin right now what with our commitments in Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey, Italy, Germany, Korea, Japan, etc. Do people honestly expect the UN to be able to draft and deploy soldiers and police and support staff more effectively?

Or ... is there really any intention at all to have some force in place to back up the dicta of international law?

Answer to Kimmitt:

"it seems that both Clinton and Bush were depressingly close to the House of Sa'ud."

That's right. Bush WAS close to the house of saud. WAS. Bush is still president and the administration is no longer nearly as close. the army is nowhere as close. the public pillow talk is down. and many, many pressures are being put on them, which clinton never did.

"You are correct that Clinton did not stupidly antagonize the Iranian mullahs, instead pursuing a policy of engagement. But at no point was Clinton's goal anything other than a free and democratic Iran, and any claims to the contrary are not based in reality."

On Iran the Bush administration's policy has been right on! You seemingly care so much about human rights, but you say nary a word about human rights for these people. Check out my site. Maybe you'll learn something. To be honest, I don't know where Clinton stood on Iran because HE NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT. Maybe you can dig up some quotes at an Iranian-American fundraiser or something like that.

"Arafat is a bad man -- a terrorist, even"

This is the man who had the honor to visit the White House more than ANY other world leader during Clinton's term, and it got Clinton NOWHERE!
Some statesman. Some diplomatic gamesmanship by Clinton. Real slick.

"Clinton who pushed us into Kosovo (despite Republican objections), an action which eventually lead to the ouster of Milosevic..."

It's always entertaining to listen to anti-Iraq War Democrats bring this up. Where was the UN in Kosovo? What with all that unilateral action, I would think you'd oppose. How many civilians died during the NATO bombings? Five years later, where is the democracy?? I thought it was the right thing to do, but then I don't see much difference between saddam and slobbo.

Your whole last paragraph, I agree with.

Still facts are facts. Less dictator coddling now. By the way, i do hope that Bush keeps an eye on Libya's human rights situation during this supposed rapprochement. Khaddafi's got a real strange political system and pretty poor record on rights. And I also hope that Bush switches up policy on Mugabe.

ps. On Arafat, he does act like a dictator towards his own people. It's a mistake to think that dictators can't be loved by some or even a majority of his people.

Clinton didn't back the Karimov regime, and Clinton did not express support for the attempted military ouster of a democratically elected President in Venezuela. Clinton cut all aid to the Taliban after it became clear that they were aligning themselves with bin Laden (previously, he had sent over various forms of humanitarian assistance), but Bush reinstated that aid.

Thirty seconds of Googling produced various Clintonian discussions of human rights, end to terrorism, and hope for dealing with the democratically elected leadership in Iran.

I'm sorry, but I do not share your view that Bush 43 is any more committed to worldwide democracy or the defeat of various dictators than Clinton was.

they're just all falling down on their own - taliban, saddam, charles taylor. it's all very coincidental.

Lets keep in mind that Iran just admitted to almost twenty years of hidden wmd programs, eight of those years during the clinton era.

Clinton and Iran:

May 29, 1998
WASHINGTON -- The Clinton administration has come under intense fire from some members of Congress and Jewish groups for what they say is a demonstrable failure to contain Iran.

The criticism comes in the wake of President Clinton's increasing reliance on diplomacy rather than sanctions aimed at curtailing Iran's development of ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons.

July 11, 2003
Clinton and Gore Okayed Russian Weapons and Nuclear Sales To Iran

June 24, 1998
Clinton Vetoes Iran Sanctions Bill

WASHINGTON President Clinton vetoed legislation on Iranian sanctions Tuesday, saying it "would hinder, not help, our overall national interests."

13 March 2000
Text: Clinton's Letter to Congress Continuing Iran National Emergency (no mention of human rights)

December 3, 1999
Clinton Seeks an Opening to Iran, but Efforts Have Been Rebuffed

And here's something from the NIAC. And a drop more.

Clinton's Iran policy was a triple threat. No effective check on weapons programs, no focus on human rights AND no reconciliation with the mullahs. quite impressive.

that was 10 minutes of googling, not 30 seconds.

they're just all falling down on their own - taliban, saddam, charles taylor. it's all very coincidental.

GOD DAMN IT. What the hell is wrong with you people? Why are you incapable of even the most simple of conversations without massively distorting your opponents' positions? At no point in this conversation did I state that the Taliban, Taylor, or Saddam were not attacked by Bush; I merely pointed out the fact that Bush's record was not picture-perfect. And it took you ten minutes to Google on Clinton because you had to pass up a number of links which detailed Clinton's various human rights-related statements with respect to Iran.

I cannot grasp the mindset necessary to attempt to justify a position through distorting my opponents' and misrepresenting the results of a Google search. Give it up -- Clinton had a post-Cold-War approach to foreign policy which acknowledged that the end of the Soviet Union made previous administrations' support, tacit and otherwise, of various strongmen ethically untenable. I make no claim regarding Bush, except that his record is not utterly spotless.

This is what i was answering kimmitt:

"I'm sorry, but I do not share your view that Bush 43 is any more committed to worldwide democracy or the defeat of various dictators."

Remember those words? Those were your words. And my answer was that Bush surely has been more committed to the 'defeat of various dictators'. Their removal from power was not all coincidental.

Just like I figured you'd do, you find links to three tiny little stories about Clinton and Iran human rights. You will find NOTHING in the state of the union addresses, 8 of them. You will see hardly anything on any Iranian-American websites about Clinton's efforts. Did you even bother to read the NIAC links? Clinton had his policy successes and failures. IRAN WAS NOT A SUCCESS BY ANY MEASURE.

I'm really enjoying the disscussion. Just wanted to comment on two throwaway points from Harry and NationFan.

Harry -- "Oh, I'm sure Bush will follow this through until the end." (sarcastically)
You have some chutzpah to imply that Bush will pull out of Iraq before there's a stable government when the only people demanding that are running for the Democratic nomination. If his motives are good he won't and if his motives are bad (the evil OIL that ANSWER swears is the real reason) he's got to stay until there is a stable regime to keep it flowing -- or forever to run it himself.

NationFan -- Only a parasite would invent the "right" to social security and high wages (not even just wages, or living wages, it seems that everyone deserves a spot on MTV 'Cribs'). If you can't contibute, fine, we'll help. If you won't contribute, why should we? Get a job that doesn't involve building puppets so you can pay some taxes and help too.

Jumping in late: It's possible that Bush is no more committed to world democracy and the defeat of various dictators than was Clinton - but that he is merely vastly better at achieving those aims.

I don't think so, but it's possible.

if commitment is measured by words and actions, well then bush is beating clinton on both ends.

but that he is merely vastly better at achieving those aims.

Yeah, well, he didn't have a Republican Congress, obsessed with his weiner, crying "wag the dog" every time he tried to get anything done.

Or, perhaps, these are somewhat different times.

Or, perhaps, you are ignoring Uzbekistan, Gabon, Venezuela, and Russia.

I admit that I receive and write emails for CAMERA occassionally. They are an excellent organization and one only need check out their website to see the incredibly detailed and professional work they do. They blew apart NPR's sloppy and disgustingly biased bordering on propaganda specials on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict 10 years ago and have been after them ever since. The arrogant NPR wouldn't even directly address them after Congress read their detailed report on NPR and instituted their own investigation thereafter.

Anyway, MY POINT...... I emailed my main contact there and said, "What's the freeking point?" Is the bias really going to be changed that much?

His answer was thus......
"In America the press is varied and not dominated by the likes papers like the Guardian and Independent. The Nation is leftist fringe paper and not a mainstream one. If our effort helps maintain that alone, than our work is more than worth it"

AFTER READIN YOUR POST HERE, I NOW COMPLETELY AGREE.

Mike

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