As a (very) lapsed Catholic, the Vatican's stance throughout the Iraq War sickens, but does not surprise, me. Virulently anti-homosexual, virulently pro-fascist! Why do you think Spain was such a mess for so many years?

Where do these phony moralists get off in the self-righteous judgements?

I must admit that when I saw the clips, I saw a man who had hit the bottom, and I felt no great pleasure in his "humiliation." But his humiliation was not only something he himself earned by destoying hundreds of thousands of lives, but also completely of his own doing.

And does this stupid priest so quickly forget how so many doubted Uday and Qusay had been killed? In Saddam's case, Iraq needed to see live pictures of him to dispel all doubts. Did this not take precedence?

Yet this tea-sipping priest talks about how outrageously the Americans violated this monster's "human rights". Where did the Left go so wrong?

I did a Lexis/nexus search on this priest and found not one single instance of him speaking out for the victims of Saddam--the people who were thrown off buildings, fed to lions, had their tongues ripped out.

A silly priest with the misguided compassion and clearly Leftist inclinations. Here's an interesting quote from our Saddam-loving priest:

Martino, who for 16 years was the permanent observer of the Vatican to the United Nations, explained that "it is time to undertake a constitutional engineering of humanity so that the United Nations can carry out its irreplaceable role."

A "consitutional engineering of humanity"?

Only from the mind of a Leftist.

The reverend has a soft spot for murderers:

http://www.econopundit.com/archive/2003_12_01_econopundit_archive.html#107159164918592687

You know, it is Catholic (and other Christian) teaching to love one's enemies; we are all (theoretically) children of God, and we are fairly explicitly commanded to love one another.

Just saying -- the context isn't great for this guy, but one could make a case that he's more or less theologically required to make those kinds of statements.

Of course, he could just be misusing Catholic doctrine to cover his pro-fascist views. That certainly has happened before. I dunno.

I admit to feeling a bit sorry for Saddam when I saw him on tv. I'm surprised that I felt this way, but I did.

The difference between me and the Cardinal is that I did not yell at the US in public about it, nor do I think Saddam deserves anything better. He deserves a heckuva lot worse, actually, but that doesn't mean it would be right and proper to torture him as he tortured others.

"we are all (theoretically) children of God, and we are fairly explicitly commanded to love one another"

But he proves it for showing love for homicidal maniacs (both him and arafat) and nothing, nada, ne rien, zippo, for their victims as indicated by David's search.

If that is virtue and charity, you can have it. He can drink his chunky milk for all to see, I prefer justice - straight out of the bottle.

As a Christian you're certainly not expected to love homicidal maniacs any more than you love their victims. I daresay that the big G might give us a pass on not quite being able to muster up heartfelt brotherly love for the dearly deposed, but I doubt the dear Cardinal will receive much leeway for ignoring the plight of the suffering masses.

Kimmitt, in no way was this idiot "theologically required" to express sympathy with Saddam unless he had at least as great a requirement to express sympathy with each of the man's victim's, individually. Which hardly would have left him enough time to worry about the ex-Butcher.

Of course you are right.
But is your approach (humiliating Saddam Hussein) effective?
That seems to me to be the relevant question. I have no answer; and I can sympathize with your desire to puff up your chest and prove victory.
But puffing is not winning.

It's Cardinals like this that make me wonder why I am a Catholic. I already find myself in disagreement with Mother Church's Economic cluelessness and I support same sex marriage, though I admit the Catholic position is just super-strict and doesn't single out homosexuals like fundamentalists do, plus they theoretically oppose serial monogamy which has rendered marriage in the US a joke.

Of course, I still enjoy and appreciate the beauty of the Church as well as Mary. I guess I am still coming to terms with religious dissent, which I have only recently started. In any eevnt, unless something catastrophic occurs, I'll still go to Mass on Sunday and on Christmas, though I feel a lot of uncertainty these days.

puffing is not winning

Life is not a cartoon.

I'm sorry I didn't include a disclaimer on my post. Here it follows:

THE FOLLOWING POST IS MUSING ON THE THEME, NOT AN ATTEMPT TO PRESENT AN ARGUMENT. THIS SHOULD BE OBVIOUS, BASED ON THE FACT THAT THE POST COMES TO NO CONCLUSION AND PRESENTS DIFFERENT VIEWS, BUT HERE IS THE DISCLAIMER IN CASE YOU NEED THE HELP.

As a recently returned to the Church Catholic, stuff like this makes me grind my teeth. I realize that forebearance and forgiveness are essential pillars of my faith. But damn, it's not like this bastard has shown any remorse.

spc67,

Which one?

Take it east, Kimmitt, it was clearly a good post. (Oh, my, I liked a Kimmitt post! ;)

MT: I admit to feeling a bit sorry for Saddam when I saw him on tv. I'm surprised that I felt this way, but I did.

Well, you should not feel guilty about this. We can't be expected to have sensibilities perfectly attuned to the surprise arrests of mass murderers in horrible shape. Your gut-level response is one thing, Martino's considered opinion another. You can reflectively cancel the emotion; Martino's values are in such disorder that he cannot.

David, thanks for digging up that quote. It's absolutely dispicable.

Mike,

I felt bad when I saw him on television, too. Don't feel guilty about it. As Jim said, we do not have "sensibilities perfectly attuned" for this sort of thing.

It is your very compassion and humanity - even in the face of a brutal dictator - that sets you apart from the monsters and killers in this world. Saddam would never feel bad about any one of his victims, paraded on television with filthy skin and liced-up hair. But the fact that you can feel even a momentary twinge of compassion (or sympathy, or whatever) means you are, above all, human.

That said, I agree with your post. We seem to be treating him well, and he is certainly being treated better than anyone under his regime. And besides, the Iraqi people would need to see some sort of proof of his capture. I do think we are part of the target audience, though. This does effect American opinion about the war.

What do you think of France and Germany's turn-around today - their agreement to reduce Iraq's debt? Do you think it was related to Saddam's capture?

What do you think of France and Germany's turn-around today - their agreement to reduce Iraq's debt?

I'm a little surprised, but pleased of course. No one should have to pay their dictator's debts off, not in Iraq or any other country.

I was kinda hoping Iraq would just tell France and Germany to go eff themselves. It would teach every country (including the US) a lesson. Do business with tyrants at your own risk.

Remember--was it only a week ago? how time does fly!!--when Bush & Co. were criticized roundly for blocking the Axis of Weasels from bidding on prime contracts in Iraq? The critics said, "Now we'll NEVER get them to forgive the Iraqi debt." Don't sit on a hot stove waiting for those critics to admit they were wrong AGAIN. Instead, just watch them go on to the next thing--like agreeing with the Cardinal here that what we really should have done with Saddam was given him back his uniform and allowed him to make a speech on Al-Jazeera--

In a way, he has a point. We did not have to show the bearded, bedragged Saddam being inspected for lice and having his teeth checked just to prove to the Iraqi's we had him. As it was, it was a humiliating and I too felt just a little bit of sympathy for this broken down old man.

It was, however, critical for the Iraqis to see these vidios and to see that the bogeyman was no longer a GOD but a broken down old man. For their sake, any humiliation of Sadaam was worth it.

Marek,

St Theresa's in Kihei. You on Maui?????????

What do you think of France and Germany's turn-around today - their agreement to reduce Iraq's debt?

I think it means that they believe Bush is gonna get another four years, so like it or not, they are going to have to deal with him.

too many pro-war peeps here tonite, no lefties. Thats no fun!

Life is not a cartoon.

Huh?

'What do you think of France and Germany's turn-around today - their agreement to reduce Iraq's debt?'

Said the US to the Weasels: "Forgive Iraq's debt and we won't tell the world what Saddam is saying about you....."

Life is not a cartoon.

Huh?

It means grow up.

What a truly stupid answer, Michael. truly stupid.

david sucher asks if humiliating saddam is likely to work. i dunno, but somebody, i can't remember who, suggested once that the only thing that would work _ for saddam, for the jihadis and for their supporters _ would be humiliation so total and abject that they finally start asking the appropriate questions about what they've been doing all these years. i'll let the experts kick this one around, but i don't think it deserves to be dismissed without a hearing.

The main point, David, is to prove to the world that we actually caught Saddam to keep the doubt and conspiracy theories to a minimum. This is not "puffing up our chests."

Michael,

The actual point may be somewhat more than "we actually caught Saddam". As difficult as it may be to believe, his exposition may have been carefully considered and planned. On the other hand, the Harvard MBA may be flying by the seat of hs pants and just extraordinarily lucky (given his limited mental acumen).

I appreciate your independence from current leftist cant but I remain doubtful as to the depth of your understanding of what appears before you. That's not really a snark. There are many on the right that don't have any idea regarding the depth of the game being played. November '04 will provide the only true answer to the question of Bush's true intelligence.

I wonder what the new opposition party will call itself?

Michael-

The main point, David, is to prove to the world that we actually caught Saddam to keep the doubt and conspiracy theories to a minimum. This is not "puffing up our chests."

Agreed. Showing the sequence of videos of Saddam's capture, initial medical exam, and post-cleanup does a lot of things quite well. It neatly demonstrates that we do indeed have Saddam in custody, he is just a man, and he is not being tortured in any major way.

Keith Johnson

Rick Ballard -

...There are many on the right that don't have any idea regarding the depth of the game being played...

More importantly, there are many on the left that don't understand the stakes for which we are playing.

Keith Johnson

I'm another lapsed Catholic (lapsed 35 years ago, at the age of 5, when I began to develop the faculty of reason). But my relationship to the church has, until the last few years been one of disinterest. I recognized some of the good social service work it did, but simply couldn't buy the theology. But lately, from the sex scandals, to the Tariq Azziz meeting with the pope, to the vile things it's been saying about gay people and their relationships, to this garbage . . . . This generally good if confused institution seems to have become utterly unglued.

A friend of mine once said that that a society without mercy is a surely a coarse society and not one worthy of its existence. But wisely added, A society that allows MERCY TO ROB JUSTICE is a society worthy of hell. It would have been unjust to the Iraqi society to wash and cleanse the realities of Saadam's capture. Justice for the Iraqi people is all the matters, they are the true victoms. If our public relations or so-called standing in the world is more important, than we can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned. This is the mentality that would keep us from freeing the Iraqi people in the first place.

I would like to add that I know that the argument here is whether he is being treated humanely or not, but that is bogus. He IS being treated humanely. As far as humiliation? I argue it is only are desire to please our critics that would motivate us to do different, and I stand by my comment above.

As a non-lapsed Catholic, I have to say that the official position of some cardinal in Vatican City doesn't reflect my viewpoint. The Vatican has been on the wrong side of lots of things for years, this is just the latest. Perhaps the most egregious example of Vatican moral obtuseness was the refusal to establish diplomatic relations with Israel for many years. Israel is the only representative democracy within a fortnight's camel ride in the Middle East and the Church "fathers" choose to welcome Aziz, Arafat and other disreputable characters instead. The link between Vatican City and the average Catholic is pretty much non-existent.

As an Episcopalian who weekly, or more, attends Catholic mass, I have sympathy for the Church's position. It would likely have been Gandhi's, too, had he lived.

The Church has been heavily, and unfairly, criticized in not standing up to the Nazis in WW II. The Church does have an uncomfortable position in accepting "just war", but there is a strong feeling of pure political peace anti-violence only.

The fact the Vatican has done so little, said so little, about Saddam's many victims, or the Mullah's, or Kim's, is a sad and inconsistent omission. Still, the Church remains committed to increasing the Mercy of the most powerful. And in hoping for the individual salvation of the souls of those whose actions damn themselves, like SH.

But Gandhi would have been killed quickly by the Nazis. Before mercy, there must be the possibility of justice.

Saddam's matter of fact humiliation, no more than other dirty prisoners, but no less, is prolly necessary to SHOCK the Arabs into remembering the truth -- he is, and always was, just a man.

And Iraqi humiliation is partly self-shame, why couldn't Iraqis depose a mere man w/o the US superpower? Because inhuman dictators, without shame or mercy, kill any who threaten them. Gorby was great, and very unusual, for NOT killing his rivals.

Saddam is just a sad old man, no demigod at all. Put him on trial, soon, and let his victims start testifying. To his face. Daily. To shame him. And let the Iraqi people laugh, as they remember and cry. What is better justice?

Life is not a cartoon: I know exactly what you mean, Michael: thinking in mere images, almost always worthless in the forum. Bush as a "strutting cowboy" is an example, or "going it alone," like some flawed hero in a tragic adventure movie. Gobbledygook. When you think in images, you assume everyone else does, too. That compounds the problem.

This was breaking news -- good news -- and the fact that he was holed up in a cellar looking like a hobo was not only part of that news -- it was part of what made that news good. (I'm channeling Donald Rumsfeld apparently. ) The world had a right to see it, and the media had a duty to show it.

They showed a doctor peering into his mouth with a flashlight. Is that inhumane? I've seen the similar things on local tv news spots about the flu outbreak. If they had stripped him naked and hosed him down and caught that on camera, maybe Father Fascismo would have a little bit of a point. But I don't think the civilized world is obligated to give fallen dictators access to a hair stylist before they make their perp walk.

It may have been humiliating to Uncle Saddam -- who is used to making grand fascistic appearances before his terrorized subjects -- but that's NOBODY's problem but his. Last I checked, vanity was one of the seven deadlies, Cardinal.

We allowed him more dignity than he allowed his thousands and thousands of victims.

I also felt a strange burst of pity for him - he looked so broken - and I certainly wouldn't want a camera shoved in my face at my lowest moment - but I must remind myself of the lack of compassion he showed to so many.

spc67,

Usually you do better - pity.

Novak at NRO explains that the good Cardinal Martino is one of the anti-americans in the Vatican. Novak explains that the Vatican "secretary of state" Cardinal Sodano is working to limit Martino's damage.

Interestingly, Novak notes: "The big Vatican news of the past month has been the major change in the way Islamic terrorism has been directly confronted, with gloves-off honesty in the Jesuit periodical Civilta Cattolica, whose pages are always cleared by the secretariat of state. Over a third of the Christians of the Middle East have been driven out during the past decade, the journal reports, and it lists many abuses by extremists, against the background of much greater tolerance in the past. It also analyzes carefully just how the extremists function in practice."

I felt nothing but exhiliration at those first pictures of a captured Saddam, but I suspect this is due to my seeing those pictures when first released to the public at the live press conference, and having those pictures accompanied by a soundtrack of ecstatic Iraqi journalists shouting at the images. There was such deep emotion in their reaction - joy, rage, relief - and none of it had to do with pity.

spc67,
Usually you do better

Marek,

Since I obviously haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, care to enlighten me?

Martino is a nut. Plain and simple.

Someone in the Vatican needs to get a firehose and wash down St. Pete's.

IIRC, Martino has also stated in the past that war was NEVER justified. Which, of course, is in complete disagreement with the Church's Just War doctrine. I guess the good Cardinal never got around to reading Aquinas.

Hi.

The Americans had to prove their story. In everything they do, they are treated with paranoid suspicion and hostility, so they should always produce the evidence for what they claim immediately, and if possible wait with their claims till they can prove them immediately.

The Americans didn't just say: "We got him!" They said he gave up like a mouse, without a shot fired, without character or courage. This was a very important claim. Since it was true, it had to be said. Since it had to be said, the Americans had to produce incontrovertible evidence at once. Therefore, it was absolutely necessary to take the pictures and send them all round the world. There he was, obviously un-heroic, as stated.

I'm sure some Americans found this humiliating for Saddam, and loved that. But it doesn't matter. It had to be done.

The violation of the Geneva Convention is a bit of a concern for me -- that "no pics" things is actually for the purpose of disallowing the humiliation of captured soldiers.

On the other hand, it's not like any particular violation of US law is more heinous under this Administration than any other. I just wish they'd shown a photo of him (with beard, if preferred) holding a newspaper with that day's date, rather than being deloused. That would have at least been within the spirit of the Conventions, if not the letter.

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