December 14, 2003
Busted Dictator Photo Gallery
Photos found on Yahoo!
Great choice of fine pics!
What do you think about whether International or Iraqi courts to try him?
I expect the usual suspects to complain, when the US lets Iraqis try him; but not sure if this is just my hope.
I can't see why anyone would complain if the Iraqis try him, but I'm sure someone will find a way regardless. They would complain even louder if we tried him.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 15, 2003 12:11 AMThe Iraqis have no legal structure with which to try him -- he could legitimately claim that no Iraqi law applies to him.
No, we will need a Nuremburg-esque tribunal; it's the only sensible option.
Posted by: Kimmitt at December 15, 2003 12:17 AMAll I've heard all day from the Henny Penny crowd is how the US won't want Saddam to have a public trial because he'll spill the beans on his 'old allies'.
Firstly, if the US were that worried, surely Saddam would've been killed in a 'fight'.
Secondly, it seems to me that we already know a whole lot about how the US and others once courted and armed Saddam, because Americans - among others - have told us all about it.
Am I being naive? Kimmitt, don't answer that!
"The Iraqis have no legal structure with which to try him -- he could legitimately claim that no Iraqi law applies to him."
If that is the case, how can "international law" apply to him? If he isn't bound by the judiciary of his home country, how could he be bound by some "Nuremburg-esque tribunal"?
Posted by: TomB at December 15, 2003 04:52 AMIn addition, I find it ironic that the same people who are wishing us out of Iraq, to "end the occupation", and give Iraq back to the people are the same ones who now say the Iraqis can't handle a trial of Saddam, and need international help.
Posted by: TomB at December 15, 2003 04:59 AMThere is zero prospect of Saddam being tried before the new International Criminal Court. That court has no jurisdiction over war crimes committed before July 2002, which would exclude most of the charges Saddam is expected to face.
So expect a trial in Iraq, by a free and democratic Iraqi people.
Posted by: David at December 15, 2003 05:31 AMIn addition, I find it ironic that the same people who are wishing us out of Iraq, to "end the occupation", and give Iraq back to the people are the same ones who now say the Iraqis can't handle a trial of Saddam, and need international help.
The Left continues to expose it's agenda for the fraud it really is.
Keep it coming.
Posted by: David at December 15, 2003 05:33 AMKimmitt again feels it necessary to flaunt his ignorance: Iraqi courts already are working, and the Iraqi government just came up with rules for trying the Baathist criminals this week; now they are going to get to try them out in a big way.
As that one US officer said: "Give him a fair trial and then hang him".
Posted by: eric at December 15, 2003 05:52 AMWouldn't it be the "Mother of All Ironies" if we discovered that Hussein did not have WMDs (although, considering the revelations in recent days, that is highly unlikely), only to find out that he had a direct role in 9-11 (also considering the recent revelations, becoming more and more likely)?
Posted by: TomB at December 15, 2003 06:08 AMActually, Kimmitt, I heard on the news last night a discussion of how pre-Saddam Iraqi law (much of which was still on the books, as is often the case in totalitarian countries maintaining a pretense of freedom) would suffice to try him for many of the things he did.
Posted by: Mike G at December 15, 2003 07:05 AMSave these photos to your hard drive -- the media will never show them again after this week.
Posted by: Anti-Bias at December 15, 2003 07:24 AMAmazing gallery, Michael ... thanks for this.
Posted by: red at December 15, 2003 07:34 AMThe Iraqi's should try him using Shi'ra law. For the rape rooms we lop off his penis. Now continue the next phase of the trial. For stealing from the Iraqi people we lop off his right hand. Now continue the next phase. Left hand for the continued stealing. Continue on to the murder part to finish the job.
Posted by: Abu at December 15, 2003 07:36 AMThey could always try him under the Hammurabic code. Is that authentic enough?
There's no legal system on earth under which this man is not a criminal deserving its maximum punishment.
Posted by: John T at December 15, 2003 07:48 AMI find it funny how the other crowds are saying that Iraqis are not going to be able to try Hussein, being as this is where the legal system was invented. Let's all have some faith in the Iraqis, okay? They deserve the first stab at this case. For backup, the Kuwaitis can have their turn, and as a last resort, there's the international court. Let's not all put the eggs in the same basket when it comes to dealing with SH. I'm sure the Bush administration will have backup plans should the Iraqi case fall apart (although, with 6 million+ pages of docs and countless numbers of witnesses, it's not likely to happen).
Posted by: Lola at December 15, 2003 07:59 AMTo this very day the Euros and the left are trying to save Saddam Hussein. The cries for an international court are cries to spare his life, as the Euros have no death penalty. They tried to keep him in power, and now they are trying to protect him from his Iraqi victims and save his life. Truly, they have no shame.
Posted by: R. C. Dean at December 15, 2003 08:09 AMUnder ‘international law’, Pol Pot and Idi Amin were allowed to die peacefully of old age, surrounded by family. International law would likely offer Saddam Hussein the same punishment..
Before the war, Saddam believed that he would be protected by his friends in the international community. He probably still believes this. He should be tried by the Iraqis.
Posted by: mary at December 15, 2003 08:11 AMKimmit! Good to see you're still around and as bass-ackward as ever.
Please do explain how the International court has more merit than the Iraqis themselves. I mean, Saddam IS an Iraqi. And don't give me any crap about how such and such law this and such and such law that. Saddam never played by the rules, why should he get to enjoy them now?
Posted by: Robb at December 15, 2003 08:17 AMMonsoor on O'Reilly says WMD will be found before 30 days
Iraq Maintained Chem-Bio Warfare Research Right Up Until U.S. Invasion
Posted by: TomB at December 15, 2003 08:19 AMOh come on Tom, if they prove Saddam had any connection to 9-11, that will damage the last of the Donks' talking points!
Posted by: Robb at December 15, 2003 08:43 AMHey Robb, is it my imagination or have the Dems almost completely stopped talking about WMDs?
They still bitch about "quagmire" and not handling the "occupation" correctly, but I haven't heard much complaining about WMDs. I wonder what they know that we don't?
Posted by: TomB at December 15, 2003 08:52 AMReferring Saddam's case to the Hague would be a bad idea. It takes years for such prosecutions to proceed, as witnessed by the continuing trial of Slobodan Milosevic. The international court also has a nasty habit of plea-bargaining actual murderers in order to get them to testify against the higher-ups. The Rawandan prosecution is a horrible mess, with the prosecutor removed. A total of three people have been convicted of Rwandan war crimes, crimes perpetrated almost ten years ago. Let the Iraqis try Saddam and his henchman, with some kind of international component to underscore that the world does not see his slaughtering ways as acceptable behavior.
Posted by: Daniel Calto at December 15, 2003 08:53 AMDecember 14, 2004
After several weeks of hiding, Howard Dean is cornered by journalists at his hiding place in an ice fishing shack on Lake Champlain. The disheveled, bedraggled, unshaven Dean emerges furtively. "I am the titular head of the Democratic party," he says, "and I want to negotiate."
Posted by: Zhombre at December 15, 2003 09:08 AMZhombre - Got any pictures?
Posted by: d-rod at December 15, 2003 09:11 AMSADDAM SHOULD FIRST BE PUT ON TRIAL FOR ONE OR TWO GRUESOME MURDERS THAT HE PERSONALLY CARRIED OUT before proceeding to any sort of general war-crimes or genocide trial.
Try him in an Iraqi court for someone that he viciously killed with his own hands. Let his apologists try to defend him for that; it will only underscore his depravity and their hypocrisy.
I could see Jacques Chirac and others attempting to explain away Saddam's broader crimes, or to get the ignored. But it'd be a lot tougher for them to explain away Saddam helping his sons feed an innocent person into a wood-chipper, or Saddam himself torturing and raping a single inncoent woman.
Keep his "personal" cirmes separate from his political ones, and try them separately. It will help to emphasize that a million deaths equal a million tragedies, not a statistic.
Posted by: ras at December 15, 2003 09:14 AMThere are several venues that have standing to try Saddam: Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Iraq. But only one of those has an acknowledged fair judicial system. Therefore, he should be tried in Israel!
Posted by: Dean Douthat at December 15, 2003 09:25 AMQuite apart from the rest of the wonderful conversation, I just wanted to say what a great line up of pictures. Excellent choices, all.
Thanks.
Posted by: zombyboy at December 15, 2003 10:27 AMOoo! Good one Dean!
Posted by: Deoxy at December 15, 2003 10:28 AMWasn't the Nurumberg court made up of judges from countries that Hitler had harmed? I don't believe there were any judges from countries that had not suffered under the Nazis.
Is this correct?
I believe the same was true for the Pacific war crimes trials. Only countries impacted by Japan took part.
Posted by: Chris Josephson at December 15, 2003 10:53 AMAs someone who has traveled a path opposite that of Michael Totten (according to him, at least; I have no way of actually knowing), and who is at this site for the first time, I'm alternately alarmed and amused by this thread. It's rather amusing to hear people on the right complain about liberals comparing Bush to Hitler, then see them comparing Howard Dean to Hussein. Of course, both comparisons are SO ridiculous. Could any educated person fail to agree that both of these comparisons are ludicrous and unhelpful for anyone?
It's always alarming to read the vitriol poured out on liberals at sites like this. I expect it from, say, Free Republic, but on a site like this, written by someone who supposedly used to be a liberal, it's newly disconcerting. Neither side has the answers to everything. Both need to recognize the complexity of problems like the Iraqi occupation.
For example -- most liberals are saying what a good thing it is that Hussein has been captured. Most also caution that it does not necessarily mean that we have reached an ending in Iraq, or that attacks on American troops will lessen. The funny thing is, there are conservatives saying pretty much the same thing, I think. The President, for one, if I recall. Now, isn't it sort of ridiculous to impugn the patriotism of people who agree that the capture is a great thing, but have the intelligence to speak about the implications, or lack thereof, on the Iraq situation overall?
Finally, just a couple of very general thoughts, related to why I have gone from conservative to liberal, and raised here mostly to see what Michael Totten, who has apparently gone the other way, thinks about them. (also, I have an insane desire to get flamed to a crisp, which is what I'm pretty sure will happen. So, flame away!)
1) The right is way further right than it used to be. This is mostly related to domestic policy, and I like to illustrate it by asking the following question: do you know that Richard Nixon advocated a nationalized health care system when he was president? And that this position is too far left for all but a couple of the current Democratic presidential candidates -- and certainly none of the frontrunners? Now I'm aware that lots of conservatives have more or less disowned Nixon, but like it or not, he was a conservative back then. So that's a massive rightward shift. And it's really scary, and (in my opinion) really harmful to this great nation.
2) the "War on Terror." The words themselves seem to me to be along the lines of a marketing slogan. It's silly to compare this "war" with wars of the past (I'll leave aside the question of the Iraq war and whether or not it can be thought of as part of the "war on terror.") It's one of the greatest disconnects between conservatives and liberals today, the thinking about the "war on terror." Conservatives seem to think of it as a conventional war, with armies fighting conventional combal actions, and with some discernable end. Whereas liberals (well, me, I know, and from reading lots of liberals, I think most would agree with this) think of the whole thing as history's largest manhunt, trying to track down the most reprehensible criminals imaginable. It should not be thought of as a war, it should be thought of as a gigantic worldwide sting operation.
And as we conduct the manhunt, many liberals think, we can talk about what else we can do to make sure something like September 11 never happens again.
Man, we must really hate America to try to do something like that.
Posted by: jackson at December 15, 2003 11:23 AMFew criminals I have heard of wish to convert the world to their religion. Few criminals are backed by Theocratic Governments. Few criminals believe they are doing the work of God, unless you count Buchanan. Few Criminals actually try to kill thousands of innocent people to prove a point. Few Criminals believe they will be rewarded for all of eternity for dying for their beliefs.
Did I hit everything, or can someone else point out the craziness of this being a Criminal Manhunt.
It is a war, an idealogical one. Much like the last great war, the Cold War. We were in a fight with an enemy that wanted to subject the whole of the world with Communism, replace Radical Islamism with Communism and you have the same war. Except this one is a hot war, they are willing to die to kill us, we must be willing to send our bravest into harms way to stop them. If it means sending them to Allah a little prematurely, so be it.
To think this is not a war, is to not think clearly, to think these are simple criminals is crazy.
I remember that line from Braveheart, "What would you do in my place".
"I would send the local constable to arrest this man."
"He killed the local constable."
Granted, I am comparing a Scottish hero to Murderous Theocrats. But I am just trying to point the fallacy of the previous arguement.
Posted by: James Stephenson at December 15, 2003 11:38 AMSee, here's part of what I'm talking about...James S., we have a difference of opinion. My opinion isn't "crazy," any more than yours is.
And man, did we ever kick ass in the Cold War! Democrats and Republicans! See, we won that one. And without (for the most part) the two political parties each thinking the other was the devil incarnate.
Posted by: jackson at December 15, 2003 11:45 AMShaky, Jackson. It's the same as saying, "Wow, the Left sure has gotten wacky. Bill Clinton reformed welfare and started a war in Europe! No lefty today would stand still for that! You guys are freaks!"
That is no more valid than your allusion. And don't forget who Nixon beat in the primaries. He was not an advocate of National Heath Care.
Posted by: spongeworthy at December 15, 2003 12:12 PMHow are we supposed to take you as seriously as you take yourself if you are unable to separate the copious amounts of Bush=Hitler propaganda out there with an obvious joke? There is absolutely no comparison between the two if you are being intellectually honest.
For example -- most liberals are saying what a good thing it is that Hussein has been captured. Most also caution that it does not necessarily mean that we have reached an ending in Iraq, or that attacks on American troops will lessen. The funny thing is, there are conservatives saying pretty much the same thing, I think. The President, for one, if I recall.
I cannot think of a single person in the past 24 hours who has stated that this will end the violence in Iraq.
Now, isn't it sort of ridiculous to impugn the patriotism of people who agree that the capture is a great thing, but have the intelligence to speak about the implications, or lack thereof, on the Iraq situation overall?It would be, but that isn't what we are doing. Those aren't the comments that we are complaining about. See Andrew Sullivan for a rundown of some of the worst. In addition a quick perusal of Democratic Underground or the like will demonstrate the point nicely.
Posted by: TomB at December 15, 2003 12:19 PMThat's a good point, spongeworthy....it's easier to see a shift in the opposite political persuasion than in your own. But I don't think there has been, in the left, the sort of gigantic shift in one direction that the right has experienced in the past 30 years.
Tomb, some of Andy's quotes are ill-considered, some idiotic, some just come from a far different political perspective than yours. 4 of the 11 I read are from foreigners and so don't really apply to what I was talking about -- impugning the patriotism of Americans. One was a quote taken totally out of context (Juan Cole). In fact, the Juan Cole example is instructive -- this is an expert on the region who can speak authoritatively on the history on the Ba'ath regime and on the current situation. He talks about the capture of Saddam from a liberal perspective and offers some very interesting commentary on what it might mean. He expresses his appreciation for the event.
And what does Andrew Sullivan do? Quotes his post out of context in order to make it sound like he is sullen and almost disappointed about the event. Nice.
Posted by: jackson at December 15, 2003 01:09 PMThe Left is reacting to Saddam's capture like it's bad news--the same way they reacted to the killing of his ghoulish sons.
When did the Left go so wrong?
Posted by: David at December 15, 2003 01:33 PMSaddam did have WMDs, and did use them against both his enemies and his own people. Only the most derranged helicopter-chasing conspiracy theorist believes he did not.
Whether Saddam destroyed all his WMDs at some point before Gulf War II is a good question, but ultimately unimportant.
What matters is that Saddam made an agreement with the UN to end Gulf War I, and then refused to abide by the agreement. Whether he destroyed his WMDs himself is immaterial compared to the fact that he reneged on his agreement to allow UN inspectors unfettered access in exchange for peace.
It takes two to make a pact, though, and it takes two to break it. Saddam's action was to be expected, but the UN's decision not to enforce the terms of their agreement went beyond the pale. If the UN had any honor or decency, they would have kept their end of the bargain they negotiated, by invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam the first time Saddam started interfering with the inspectors. They did not, and evidence is mounting that they chose not to because they were receiving huge bribes from Saddam himself, to temper their response. As such, they forfeited any right to sit in judgement of America's handling of Gulf War II, from the issuance of reconstruction contracts to the trial of Saddam Hussein.
Posted by: Tatterdemalian at December 15, 2003 01:35 PMIt's nice to see that the right has reclaimed the tinfoil. I was a bit worried when my fellow lefties started embracing absurd paranoid fantasies ("the Jews were behind 9/11!") but now it's mainstream right-wing thought, apparently, to believe that the United Nations was in the pay of Saddam Hussein.
Thank God I'm no longer on the craziest side once more.
--Kynn
Posted by: Kynn Bartlett at December 15, 2003 02:06 PMKynn,
neither the Left NOR the Right has any monopoly on level-headedness... nor on tinfoil hats.
For the record, I have not heard ANYONE claim that the United Nations was in the pay of Saddam Hussein. I'm not saying that no one's made the claim, just that I haven't seen it... and I would have noticed, believe me, since I've not been a fan of the United Nations for a good, long time.
Most people on the Right, so far as I understand, think simply that the UN is a glorified debating society, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing. I'd certainly agree with that. That Saddam was actively paying off UN bureaucrats, well, I'd want to see documentation of THAT before I believed it. (Although I wouldn't mind knowing where all that 'Food-for-Oil' money went... a lot of it did NOT go to Iraq.)
Bottom line? The idiocy spouted from America's political Left of late -- and both the quantity of it, and the sheer idiocy of it, has been truly astonishing -- does not mean that the Right is always right. Neither does it mean that the two sides are somehow 'equivalent', because both are in possession of more than one tinfoil hat.
(Example: I have yet to hear a single Republican call a single Democrat a 'traitor'. I've heard the accusation made many times, sure, but never substantiated. On the other hand, many Republicans, from the President on down, have been called traitors by Democrats. Believing, as I do, that neither major political party has been particularly treasonous, I'd have to say that, for sheer moonbattery, the Democrats lead the field here.)
Personally, I'd be delighted for the Democrats to start making sense again. But at this rate, I'm not holding my breath.
respectfully yours,
Daniel in Medford
International LAW is a misnomer. Sovereign nations who abide by the law are one thing - but nations whose governments respects no law nor human rights are worthless when it comes to making decisions that effect the community of man.
Posted by: Cap'n SPIN at December 15, 2003 07:54 PMA comment on the original subject:
It would be to the advantage of blunting the reaction of the Islamic nations and the issue of militant fundamentalist Islamics to have Saddam tried in Iraq by an Iraqi court and the sentence carried out by the Iraqi government (in whatever form).
Holding him and making him subject to our laws and punishments will result in attacks on Collition Members interest around the world and the taking of Collition members' citizens hostage. Remember, hostage taking has been a way of warfare and politics in the middle east for thousands of years.
There is more that could be said about this view but I believe your readers don't need a explanation of the obvious.
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