I don't think I've been this pleased with news since I watched Gorbachev dissolve the Soviet Union in 1991.

Heh. The trial is going to be interesting, to say the least.

Not everybody is thrilled about this. At least one person I've talked to said he hates Bush and fears this will help his reelection. He let slip that he hopes it's not really Saddam but an impersonator.

What?! I said, and he quickly retracted. But his slip of the tongue sounded more honest than his retraction, and I think he voiced the secret of thought of millions of Americans (especially Democrats).

You may rest assured that no one wants Saddam to be alive -- however, many people (myself included) very much want Bush to be a 1-term President, and the two get confused a little sometimes.

I haven't had this kind of visceral thrill since watching the scenes of the German people spontaneously demolishing the Berlin Wall with picks, shovels and very often bare hands.

Only one thing to do:

Pull out the late Gunter Wand's version of Beethoven's Ninth, play it loud as Hell, sing along during "Ode to Joy", and then do it all over again.

And Michael, you forgot...

God Bless George W. Bush, our President.

Oops-

Meant to say:

And Michael, he forgot:

God Bless George W. Bush, our President.

Sorry. Not accusing you anything...this time.

Really, Kimmitt? "You may rest assured that no one wants Saddam to be alive"? Go read atrios comments section. There are some folks who are clearly unhappy about this.

1. "I don't know how to feel about this. Or what to think, or say, or do. Odd.

It seems as though this is being touted as a good thing. Is it a good thing? Capturing him ALIVE is a good thing.

For months, I've been cynically & rhetorically saying, "Oh yeah? We won this war? Where are the WMD? Where's Saddam? Where's Osama?" It seems as though one of those questions was answered. We have Saddam.

And now that we have him, I'm wondering why I thought it was so necessary to catch him in the first place. What will this solve? What difference will this make? Obviously, I was letting my own partisanship and distrust of Bush get in the way of determining what my focus should be. My own flip flop feels very uncomfortable--but I honestly don't know what good this will do and why I was so concerned about Saddam's whereabouts in the first place.

Does anybody else feel this way? I'm having a hard time sorting through the jumble of my confused, conflicted, and bizarre thoughts."

2. My guess is he'll be Jack Rubied by a CPA plant before he gets to utter a word.

3. I'm not exactly jumping to joy about Saddam, sorry to say. I think people should take his capture with a grain of salt.

Just a small sampling. To be fair, there are plenty who are unreserved about it, but your statement is, sadly, false.

Shoulda proofed. 1, 2, and 3 are all quotes. My commentary didn't start until "Just a small sampling."

Pathetic.

Saddam won't be "Jack Rubied". The Iraqis will want a trial, and Saddam has way too much information to be simply done away with.

If they had wanted to just kill him, they would have done that when they captured him.

Senator Biden surprised me this morning with his remarks. (from Instapundit)--Biden said (when asked about how this affects the Dem race)that if we can capture Osama and Mullah Omar and stabilize Iraq and the president gets re-elected, that's just fine with him, and best for the country.

Gad, some actual commonsense is being manifested.

Hey, let's see what the Big Kahuna himself has to say.

Thank you...truly. I just came from the rat's hole of atrios' blog and this helps alot.

This was terrific news to wake to!

What I find most pathetic - and I mean that in the sad rather than angry sense - is that the Left, as identified on Atrios and Democraticunderground, has so little to say and offer to the rest of the world that they are unable to accept this for what it is: a fantastic victory for Iraq.

It is truly a sad day when your best and most often employed strategy is to hope for your opponent to fail.

1. is a genuine expression of confusion, wondering how all this news fits together.

2. is chatter.

3. you left out the opening: "I'm still skeptical on how this Saddam capture affects Americans on a whole. I'm not exactly jumping for joy, although it's good news that he was captured."

I will amend my statement -- no one wants Saddam to be in power (outside of some outright Ba'athists); I am quite certain that many people are against the death penalty in all cases. None of the items you posted contradict my statement.

What a scam! What a joke!

Bush and his cohorts have been telling the American People and the world lies lies lies. The line was something like this: weapons of mass destruction. Yep. That's the reason for invading Iraq.

Well where are the weapons Sir? Now the people forgot that these were the reasons and the talk is all about Saddam Hussein, the dictator. If you, the reader, believe this then excuse me for saying that you are somewhat naive.

It was the U.S. that empowered Saddam against Iran. Wasn't he a dictator then? What about other world dictators? Are we going after them too? Of course not. But that theme resonates well with the public and we're succored.

I'm a registered Republican. But no more of those lies. I will vote for reason and defending the nation but not for lies and far-extreme ideology. My vote is for Howard Dean!

One-term for Bush is enough. Hindsight: it was a big mistake.

Poor, poor leftists. A very sad day for Saddamites. I hear there is proof Saddam trained Atta. It will all come out--WMD and all--they may need to search in Syria but if Saddam did not have WMD what made those Kurds writhe, squirm, and die by the thousands--an ilamic curse? How bloody sad that you fifth columnists hate America more than you hate terrorists.
I am happy. Joy, joy, the rat is trapped. What a wonderful Christmas present !! Have a happy day--don't shed tooo many tears for your hero.

don't shed tooo many tears for your hero.

You know, at one point, I took Mr. Totten's advice to heart and stopped worrying so much about looking for the "objectively pro-Saddam" meme.

That appears to have been an error.

Oh come now, Kimmitt.

1. Can't even decide WHAT he thinks, but he isn't happy.

2. Is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

3. Is either a paranoid or very hard to please, take your pick.

They all share a general unhappiness with an event that is an unqualified good thing.

DU is going nuts, the Dean blog commenters either panicking or sitting in a corner sucking their thumbs, Atrios, Tbogg, hesiod et al are snarling . . . there are plenty of unhappy people out there.

For months, I've been cynically & rhetorically saying, "Oh yeah? We won this war? Where are the WMD? Where's Saddam? Where's Osama?"

Those are questions that millions like you, in your cynicism, felt the freedom ask because you knew the answer favored your rhetorical point scoring against Bush and U.S. policies. Now that it doesn't favor you to ask it, you'll move on to similarly cynical questions, like the ones below:

And now that we have him, I'm wondering why I thought it was so necessary to catch him in the first place. What will this solve? What difference will this make?

And so on and so forth, you'll go from cynicism to negativity, in the same spirit of all objections that have been offered by partisan Democrats to Bush's policies.

And all their objections so far have fallen by the wayside, debunked one by one. And so on and so forth it will go.

What a terrible place to be as an American-wishing failure on your president. How sad.

Well where are the weapons Sir?

You're just another cynic hoping that we find no WMDs. And you hope for this not because you objectively believe that Bush policies are a failure, but because you WANT them to be a failure. Just like you hoped Saddam wouldn't be captured, and Osama too.

And when Bush finds those WMD (now with Saddam's help) you'll move on to some other reason why you believe Bush is a failure.

Oh, and by the way, you're not a registered Republican. I recognize the rhetoric of the Left in your screed. I see it all the time. It reminds me of how anti-Israel trolls often use Israeli sounding names in the belief that it gives their views more legitimacy. But they're easily outed.

Joe Lieberman will take back the Democratic Party from the Dean-weenies, and will never let them forget:

"Let's be real clear... If Howard Dean had his way, Saddam would be in power not prison."

Joe Lieberman and Joe Biden.

As posted on Instapundit and The Corner:

On with Dan Rather a few minutes ago, Joe Biden said (when asked about how this affects the Dem race)that if we can capture Osama and Mullah Omar and stabilize Iraq and the president gets re-elected, that's just fine with him, and best for the country.

I applaud Biden's comments, but would also add that if Lieberman got elected that would be just fine with me. He hasn't wavered at all on the Iraq war, and he didn't do a bit of spin today. Of course he hasn't got a chance of getting the nomination, and it wouldn't be just fine with me if one of the other Dems got elected. (With the possible exception of Gephardt. I'm a single issue voter this time, and the issue is foreign policy,)

Joseph-

Just because you want to make it ALL about WMD to ventilate against Satan Bush doesn't actually make it all about WMD for the rest of us.

Many of us supported the Bush Administration's policy and action for a combination of reasons. Yes, yes, I know all us chicken-hawk Bushies are just dunderheads, but we can, at times, synthesize several pieces of information together to form a position. Shock, eh?

Anyway, one of those was WMD. Was it the only? Nope. Was it the most important? Maybe. Does removing WMD from the equation change my mind about what we did and why? Nope.

Just because we cannot find the WMD we know existed in 1992 does not mean, as you state, that it does not exist. Just because we do not have concrete evidence that Saddam collaborated with anti-American terrorist organization does not mean he did not. A display of fallacious logic does not prove your argument. Nor does it invalidate the essential tenets of the Policy of Preemption.

Think wishfully if you must, but please don't insult my intelligence with the sort of half-argument based on psuedo-fact you are trying to put forth. I for one thought long and hard about the War on Terrorism, the Policy of Preemption and the risks of military action in both Afghanistan and Iraq before deciding to support the President. Some of us hawks do actually operate in such a manner.

Being a registered Republican doesn't make your compendium of D.U. memes any less ridiculous. They will, however, serve as currency with the Deanies.

They all share a general unhappiness with an event that is an unqualified good thing.

Hunh. I am starting to come to the conclusion that thinking about long-term consequences of action and policy is considered unpatriotic by conservatives.

Saddam's captured. It is a good thing. It is also a big thing, with many ramifications.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that thinking about long-term consequences of action and policy is considered unpatriotic by conservatives.

If the long-term consequences include oppression by the evil Americans, then you are correct.

It is amazing to see the liberals whine about Saddam's capture. After moaning for months that "Bush didn't get Saddam!" it has become their worst nightmare.

When what is good for America and good for the world becomes bad for liberals, then yes, they ARE being unpatriotic!

Yes, Kimmitt, it's a big thing. It has many ramifications. Well enough.

However, Saddam remaining free would have been a bigger thing, and had more and worse ramifications. There's quite simply nothing to complain about today. I note that there's none of that sort of idiocy on your blog; why are you defending imbeciles who do it on theirs?

Saddam Hussein Captured: The Clock.

Time's up, Saddam!.

http://www.cafeshops.com/saddam_clock.8980091

If the long-term consequences include oppression by the evil Americans, then you are correct.

Yes, and I imagine our little games in Georgia have nothing to do with oil pipelines.

George W. Bush doesn't share your ideals; he is using you just as cynically as he used the suffering of the Iraqi people. He will ditch you just as quickly as he will ditch the Iraqis as soon as they become politically inexpedient.

George W. Bush doesn't share your ideals; he is using you just as cynically as he used the suffering of the Iraqi people

If that's true, so be it. Howard Dean would have left the bastard in power, so I can't possibly prefer him to Bush on this question. Better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than refuse to do the right thing at all.

Better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than refuse to do the right thing at all.

Nothing could be more true. The Left, even if they're on the side of the angels as they claim, are still doing the wrong thing. They've always been more concerned with good intentions than good results.

Better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than refuse to do the right thing at all.

Invading Iraq and deposing Saddam, then establishing another, slightly less brutal, strongman in his place isn't precisely a shining beacon of righteousness in my book. Especially at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars and hundreds of American lives.

I was very impressed with Lieberman today. Pity he doesn't stand a chance. This registered Republican would be happy to consider Lieberman for president.

MJT, and the rest of you Democrats with a clue (and I know you're out there) - when does the "Dump Dean" movement kick in? Because I dread a Bush v Dean race, I'd like a real choice, please...

Invading Iraq and deposing Saddam, then establishing another, slightly less brutal, strongman in his place isn't precisely a shining beacon of righteousness in my book.

Do you consider the Iraqi Governing Council and Saddam Hussein to be equally monstrous in your "book" of righteousness?

We've already stated our intentions to help create a democratic and truly representative government in Iraq, beginning with the creating of an Iraqi governing council. Why do I even have to remind you of this? Does it mean so little to you?

Is your concern for democracy even real? Given your comments, I wonder. Is your objection to "strongmen" sincere? If so, then why do you so casually dismiss and minimize the positive changes on the ground in Iraq?

It makes me wonder if you and your fellow travellers are merely using your so-called concern for democracy as a political club, rather than as an sincere and earnest desire for the Iraqi people.

George Bush has done what a million letters from Amnesty International could EVER do. So why the long face?

It's like the peaceniks against the Sanctions who did a 180 on the sanctions right after the invasion. They weren't so concerned about the "children" anymore, but about hurting Bush. Obviously, they were using "the children" as a political club the whole time.

Sorry, you can't use the usual rhetorical point scoring on this one.

We've already stated our intentions to help create a democratic and truly representative government in Iraq, beginning with the creating of an Iraqi governing council.

My point is that President Bush and his Administration make a lot of statements.

But hey, we'll see, right? I just hope that Bush's true colors become apparent before the election, so that folks will be able to make choices based on what he is like, not what we all wish he were like.

Kimmit-

Why is it that you so very often exhibit the ability to clearly see the 'true colors' of the President that remain hidden from so many of us? The President has been the President for more than several years now...just what is that we are missing that you are not?

There are, to my mind, two possible explanations for your self-proclaimed visionary status:

It could be you possess a native intelligence and analytical ability far surpassing the vast majority of humanity. That is one possibility.

Of course, the second possibility is that you are delusional.

Far be it from me to decide based on a few months of seeing your posts, but in all honesty, if he success of the Coalition and the President distress you just say so. This whole "I am the Oracle" routine is wearing on the nerves.

The President has been the President for more than several years now...just what is that we are missing that you are not?

The indefinite detention of multiple American citizens without charges or access to counsel, the recent admission that we knew that dozens of the Guantanamo detainees were innocent of all charges (kidnapped for bounty money of all things!) but kept under lock and key anyway, the solidarity with the Karimov regime, the use of antiterror legislation on common criminals, and the recent repudiation of Taiwan's right to vote on whatever it damn well pleases.

Or, rather, it's not that you miss them but you dismiss them as isolated incidents; you see Bush as a fellow traveler with you and your ideals who makes the occasional misstep or takes the occasional harsh action in defense of liberty. I submit that my interpretation is more in line with the facts as they stand.

Do you ever stop patronizing those with whom you disagree?

Just which of those issues have not been in plain sight? Or subjected to serious debate in a variety of public forums?

Besides, what you cite as "facts" aren't "facts" in the sense you wish to portray them. They are positions on policy issues, and there is room for a variety of legitimate positions on each issue based on RELATIVE merits, depending on a weighing of fact, value and priority.

And you know what? Each and every one of those positions are debateable on their merits or lack thereof. But debating the merits of those positions isn't what you do. You cut corners. Its' all inference and suggestion. You mischaracterize issues as "facts", infer that the "wrongness" of all the Bush Administration's positions on these issues is self-evident and not worthy of comment, and then walk away claiming victory.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want to be taken seriously, then put in the time and the effort. Lay out your argument out clearly and concisely, defend it logically and we'll go from there. There is always room for respectful disagreement. But for there to respectful disagreement there needs to be the element of respect. The same old, same old Leftist argument of 'You either get it or you don't, and if you don't you're either an amoral fascist or a moron' is not one that will foster respect for those employing it from those it is being employed upon.

"if Lieberman got elected that would be just fine with me. He hasn't wavered at all on the Iraq war, and he didn't do a bit of spin today. Of course he hasn't got a chance of getting the nomination, and it wouldn't be just fine with me if one of the other Dems got elected."

Lots of blog comments over the past few days seeing Lieberman with a new eye. I can't count how many blog comments I've read saying "I like Lieberman - too bad he's unelectable." You all need to realize you're not the only one - maybe he is electable.

The same old, same old Leftist argument of 'You either get it or you don't, and if you don't you're either an amoral fascist or a moron' is not one that will foster respect for those employing it from those it is being employed upon.

Don't hold your breathe. There is no there there, if you know what I mean.

The Left's stock and trade is the slogan, the mantra, the label (nazi, hitler, apartheid, etc.) You're supposed to accept that behind this there is substance, but there isn't.

Press them for substance, and they rephrase the slogan, the mantra, the screed. But don't expect logic, examples, or relevant facts. Keep pressing them, and they get nasty, defensive or simply leave.

The Left's stock and trade is the slogan, the mantra, the label (nazi, hitler, apartheid, etc.)

No, that's the intellectually dishonest man's stock and trade. There are more then enough of those to go around on every side of every question.

I could just as easily say, "The Right's stock and trade is the dehumanization of opponents, the dismissal, the innoculation. You're supposed to accept that behind this there is substance, but there isn't.

Press them for substance, and they repeat the red-bait, the terrorist-bait, the Saddam-bait. But don't expect logic, examples, or relevant facts. Keep pressing them and they get nasty, offensive, or simply threaten you physically."

...and it would be just as accurate for some and just as useless for discussing any issue.

These are facts:

1)The indefinite detention of multiple American citizens without charges or access to counsel,

Jose Padilla and Yasser Hamdi have been detained indefinitely without charges. Mr. Hamdi was recently granted an interview with a lawyer, though the state still maintains that this is a favor, rather than a right. It has been nearly two years for Hamdi.

the recent admission that we knew that dozens of the Guantanamo detainees were innocent of all charges (kidnapped for bounty money of all things!) but kept under lock and key anyway,

This speaks for itself; one discussion is here.

the solidarity with the Karimov regime,

The Bush Administration has repeatedly called Karimov's regime a part of the "Coalition of the Willing." It has done next to nothing in response to the regime's massive human rights abuses.

the use of antiterror legislation on common criminals,

One example is here.

and the recent repudiation of Taiwan's right to vote on whatever it damn well pleases.

Details here.

These are not opinions. These are facts. Opinions are what vary based on these facts -- my opinion is that these facts lead to the conclusion that Bush is not terribly concerned with democracy and human rights in a general sense but is cynically using them as tools to manipulate those who do care. The opinion of many on this blog is that Bush shares their ideals but occasionally missteps.

Man, I bust out this huge post full of link-y goodness, and it kills the thread. Ah, well.

Kimmett you and I both know that we can not provoke China like that. Bush knows the Taiwanese leaders do not have to listen to him at all. In this he saves face with China and lets Taiwan do what it damn well likes.

The Chinese Leaders can do nothing, because even with all of those Army Troopers, they can not swim to Taiwan and if they tried they would be easy targets. So they need to save face. If Bush came out and said that, all of those gains being made in China, Free Market, will disappear for them to save face.

We all know that China is changing, Free Market will lead to Free Speech and the death knell of the last Communist Stronghold. I do not count Cuba because they have no military power.

Free Market, Free Speech, Free elections, these are the basis of our society. And once you let a little infection in, like a cancer, the rest will spread, thankfully so.

Regardless what you may believe to be true, Socialism and Communism does not work.

I will argue to the last breath anyone who says that Free Market, Free Speech and free elections are not the best of all alternatives.

To me business is just Darwin's theory in practice. If your business is not strong enough, it gets culled from the herd. If it is too perfect, others spring up to emulate it. To me, that is where Darwinism really shines.

Kimmett you and I both know that we can not provoke China like that.

Right, but when I bring up concepts like "geopolitical ramifications of conquering and occupying Iraq," I'm objectively pro-Saddam (or just naively in favor of his murderous rampages). It's this absurd blindspot -- all the evil in the world was apparently held within the body of a single person, and all of the usual discussions of US interests, possible long-term results, and cost-benefit analyses are held to be inhuman when it comes, exclusively, to the question of how to deal with Iraq.

This whole "Bush is on the side of democracy" thing is part of the same weird blindspot. Because Bush defeated the Center Of All Evil (what, did he carry the One Weapons-Grade Uranium Ring up Mount Tikrit to its destruction?), he is now the shining light of idealistic somethingorother. Bush is Bush -- his response to 9/11 was to brutalize our civil rights, and he plays power games with dictators to get access to oil. This is not a man committed to democracy, no matter how ably he defeated Lord Sauddom.

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