December 13, 2003
Jerks
Via Tim Blair comes this tidbit from England:
A church has been told that it cannot publicise its Christmas services on a community notice board to avoid offending other religions.I'm trying to imagine myself in this kind of situation. Let's say I take a job in, oh, Istanbul. I see a community notice board that mentions Ramadan service at a mosque and, not being a Muslim, I yell at a bunch of people and say I'm offended and I want it taken down.
Wouldn't that make me a complete and total jerk (not to mention an ugly American)? I mean, in this hypothetical, I'm in Turkey complaining about Ramadan. Methinks the Turks would (rightly) tell me to go eff myself.
When in Rome... When in Istanbul... When in England...
My wife and I are both atheists. We celebrate Christmas and always will. Don't like it? Lump it, grinches.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at December 13, 2003 10:42 AMMaybe not in Turkey but in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria or Egypt you might be hanging from a pole in the center of town at some point.
Posted by: Mike at December 13, 2003 11:58 AMOh, let me add the West Bank for sure.
Posted by: Mike at December 13, 2003 11:59 AMThis is good one too, from Mark Steyn.
In California, Muslim community leaders have applauded the decision of the Catholic high school in San Juan Capistrano to change the name of its football team from the Crusaders to the less culturally insensitive Lions. Meanwhile, 20 miles up the road in Irvine, the Muslim Football League’s New Year tournament will bring together some of the most exciting Muslim football teams in Orange County: the Intifada, the Mujahideen, the Saracens and the Sword of Allah.Posted by: d-rod at December 13, 2003 12:04 PM
It's amazing how much "respecting diversity" resembles intolerance.
Posted by: TNAR at December 13, 2003 01:20 PMPart of the problem is that hard-and-fast rules can't circumscribe the largely subjective process of taking offense. Some things are clearly offensive. Some aren't. Much is in the grey area where giving offense and taking offense are questionable. Tradition is good at handling this, rather than laws.
But then again, a reliance of law (and the State) to manage a point better handled by tradition (and therefore Culture) is both tempting and dangerous. Should we have government funded religion? That's a point of law. But I'd say a county square housing an private organization's christmas tree doesn't hurt anyone. I'm a Jew, my religion isn't in danger of benefitting from this. It's just common sense.
But it's also symptomatic of a larger problem. As our government grows, issues that were private questions of lifestyle and culture become subjects of legitimate public debate.
In a world with government supported healthcare, suddenly taxpayers are covering the costs of personal decisions. Like whether or not to smoke. Or what to eat. Or whether to use protection when having sex-- or even how casually you have sex. Scary? Sure. Not likely any time soon. Well, except the smoking part. And the eating.
Who knows? If we had a national healthcare system, and a pro-celibacy campaign reduced prenatal and STD expenses by 10%, it would be pretty tempting, privacy concerns notwithstanding.
Or take federally funded art. Why shouldn't the government decide what art to fund based on public opinion rather than elite opinion? Blustering aside, when the public funds something, or manages something, it becomes a public issue. Voters provide both the money, and (indirectly) management. Eventually, for better or worse, they get control.
Government power is a dangerous tool for these reasons. Its help is invaluable and can do some real good in peoples' lives. But it also opens a door to control over things best left alone.
Posted by: Rob at December 13, 2003 01:34 PMI'm a Jew, my religion isn't in danger of benefitting from this. It's just common sense.
As a christian, I wouldn't have a problem seeing your religious symbols in the public square when your holy days come up. That's why it's called "diversity".
Hello? Anybody? Bueller?
But the anti-judeo/christian nihilists have pushed their agenda to eradicate religion from the public square under the guise of "diversity" and "multi-culturalism". It's social engineering, pure and symbol. Makes me sick.
And I don't want to hear any of this "separation of church and state" crap. It's crap. We have a secular GOVERNMENT, not a secular SOCIETY.
Posted by: David at December 13, 2003 04:40 PMIt's this kind of senseless oppression that makes believers feel really persecuted; but changes, especially, show whether athiest/anti-Christian intollerance is gaining, or not.
The "community" excludes believers -- as so many PC groups, do.
The better policy would be to allow all religions to post info on the comm. board.
Posted by: Tom Grey at December 13, 2003 04:41 PM"pure and simple"
Posted by: David at December 13, 2003 04:41 PMIt's strange -- it seems like we all know where we need to go; we are basically supposed to be polite and tolerant. And yet we get so lost in the push-pull that we end up either absurd or theocratic. Frustrating.
Posted by: Kimmitt at December 13, 2003 04:41 PMUnless churches themselves are banned, then there's not consistency here. It's nuts. Around Easter last year the town of Amherst, MA had a banner across the main street that read "Jesus is Risen." I found that innapropriate since it gives the impression, falsely I suppose, that it represents the town itself as an official greeting (it seems they simply rent the space). But as long as a church is allowed to exist, you can't ban it from posting messages on its own premises. That starts to get scary.
By the way, I saw a signe on a church today that said something like: "Come in and taste the lord -- satisfaction is guaranteed." We thought that was a little weird. Then we noticed another church down the block with a sign that said "Jesus is Lord: Resistance is Futile!" It seems they were having a bit of a Christian slogan war, so to speak. We thought it was charmingly ridiculous, and I think that's the idea with those signs: they represent a part of the larger community without pretending to represent the whole thing, and they convey that with a wink and a chuckle.
Next we'll find that supermarkets will be banned from posting signs for pork or beef since that would be offensive to Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, or Kosher foods since it's offensive to Christians to suggest that their religion offends God by permitting forbidden foods (plus the meat industry would cry slander, and animal rights groups would obviously balk at the suggestion that one form of murder is a lesser crime than another...)
Posted by: Jeremy Brown at December 13, 2003 06:02 PMAs usual, multiculturalism is racism. It asks whites to treat brown people delicately, to pamper them, because it assumes they don't have the intellect and self-control of whites, are more driven by emotion, and just might snap if confronted with social complexity. The multiculty eggheads don't really have social relations with brown people, they stiffen up when they have to face them, and can't look them in the face and talk to them as ordinary human beings, let alone assume and demand mutual respect for each other's reasonable ways of life. Feeling self-loathing at this, the white multiculties replicate a facsimile of social understanding by passing down rules about how all whites are supposed to act in order to show respect for the bizarre and volatile zoological specimens.
Rich lefties don't feel guilty about having while brown people have not. They feel guilty about their racist feelings of alienation. Championing multiculturalism is a quick and easy way to make the feeling go away. "If I read a book about brown people's practices and tell other whites to bend over backwards to make way for these practices, then I can't be a racist, can I? Whew! Only one or two semesters and I went from feelings of guilt to being a leader in the fight against racism."
Posted by: Jim at December 13, 2003 09:42 PMA Turkish atheist would probably beat you to it -and that's assuming the militantly atheistic Turkish state allows privately posted religious notices on public property.
Posted by: Dave at December 14, 2003 07:59 AM"As usual, multiculturalism is racism. "
Further, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength.
Seriously, man. Multiculturalism is exclusively an attempt to deal with racism (and ethnocentrism); it may succeed or fail -- and some branches may be more successful than others -- but the motivation is an attempt to deal with the real live racism which pervades human existence.
Posted by: Kimmitt at December 14, 2003 12:01 PMMulticulturalism is exclusively an attempt to deal with racism (and ethnocentrism); it may succeed or fail -- and some branches may be more successful than others -- but the motivation is an attempt to deal with the real live racism which pervades human existence.
As a concept, I agree. But as practiced, I agree with Jim. The paternalism afforded the "little brown people" by the multi-cultis amounts to racism. It's how adults treat children basically. And we treat children in a certain way because we don't believe them capable. Now tranfer that attitude to adults of a minority race--and you have RACISM. Of course, it's racism with a smile and white gloves, but racism nonetheless.
Posted by: David at December 14, 2003 12:56 PMYeah, well, in a world of Haley Barbour, I know which of the two I'm going to be worrying about more, thanks.
Posted by: Kimmitt at December 14, 2003 02:33 PMOh, just be honest,Kimmit--the bloody library did not want to offend the little brown muslim people. You know how they hate being offended by us infidels. You multiculturalists condone racism as long as the victims are Christian.
Muslim party at Christmas ban library
By Fiona Govan
(Filed: 14/12/2003)
A library that banned the display of posters promoting Christmas services for fear of offending other religions hosted a party to celebrate a Muslim festival only days earlier.
Church officials in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, were told by the town's public library last week that their posters could not be displayed because they pertained to a "religious preference group".
It emerged yesterday, however, that a party to celebrate Eid, the breaking of the fast of Ramadan, had been held there less than a week previously.
The party was organised by Rehana Nazir, the multicultural services librarian at Buckinghamshire county council, and was advertised with leaflets distributed at the library. About 20 children, and several adults, attended.
Michael Stillwell, 66, from High Wycombe, who was given a leaflet by library staff said: "It seems like pure hypocrisy to hold a festival from one religion and to then ban a simple poster."
Posted by: Kat at December 14, 2003 06:15 PMYeah, strange fruit and stupid cancellations of Christmas celebrations are defintely on the same level.
Posted by: Kimmitt at December 14, 2003 08:30 PMTwo friends and I found ourselves on a 19 hour bus ride across Turkey on the first day of Ramadan. We had forgotten that it had started and our bus driver apparently decided to enforce the "no eating" thing on everyone on the bus. Needless to say we were damn hungry since we had failed to plan ahead. We didn't complain, but we sure did scarf down a ton of food as soon as the bus finally did stop a minute after the sun hit the horizon.
Posted by: Kris Lofgren at December 15, 2003 01:28 PMAnd you probably could complain like that in Istanbul and get away with it. In fact if there were any Generals nearby they'd probably join you...
Posted by: Kris Lofgren at December 15, 2003 01:29 PMKris,
Yeah, I might complain about that, but that's because non-Muslims are being coerced into obeying Ramadan restrictions. A Christmas ad on a bulletin board isn't a bit coercive.
I hope you're enjoying your time in Turkey. It's one of those places I would really like to visit.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 15, 2003 01:32 PMYes it's stupid but it's stupid acoss-the-board. So let the elected officials of that town do what they want and be stupid if that's what they want to.
More boradly, why do conservative-wannabees pick-up on such trivia?
Posted by: David Sucher at December 15, 2003 07:44 PMDavid,
What, is Christmas a right-wing thing now? When did that happen?
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2003 02:48 PMSince Jesus was born--Jesus was a rightie. The devil is a leftist. :):):)
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