Michael J. Totten: Disgruntled Democrat Watch

November 06, 2003

Disgruntled Democrat Watch

Nathan Hamm is finished with the Democratic Party.

I'm sick of my former party and not going back to it until it can start advocating policies and not pandering to hysteria, conspiracy, and hate.

On a side note, he lived in an authoritarian police state (Uzbekistan) and is rightly tired of fools who claim America has turned into one.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at November 6, 2003 10:16 PM

Comments

I like that he describes the Bush team doublespeak on Karimov's regime as "naive," when it is obviously just Bush supporting the current regime in exchange for its support in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I have little patience for those who claim that the US is turning into Uzbekistan. I have only slightly more for those who claim that the US is not helping Uzbekistan turn into Uzbekistan.

Posted by: Kimmitt at November 7, 2003 12:51 AM

I like that he describes the Bush team doublespeak on Karimov's regime as "naive," when it is obviously just Bush supporting the current regime in exchange for its support in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I agree.

We needed to get to Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden. Karimov in Uzbekistan was in the way. We had two options. Bribe him or shoot him. Which would you have preferred?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 7, 2003 01:06 AM

I can see who the next crop of neocons are.*

*This is not a bad thing.

Posted by: HalfLiberal at November 7, 2003 06:28 AM

Just to clarify, I am not saying neocon as a negative as the wackos on the extreem Left/Right use it.

I am using it as what it really meant: A left-liberal mugged by reality.

Posted by: HalfLiberal at November 7, 2003 06:29 AM

Just want to be clear that I think that our Uzbekistan policy is the best it could be. I can't remember everything I say (I tend to go in circles as time passes), so I can't tell if I'm being criticized.

It's difficult to be too critical or supportive of our Uzbekistan policy as a whole because it's pretty murky. Admirably, the Bush administration hasn't snuggled up too closely to Karimov. There's support, but it's at a distance. I guess that what I'd like is verbal criticism of Karimov's repression -- at the same time, I know that is pretty counterproductive in Uzbekistan.

I do stand by my conviction that we are getting schooled by the Russians and the Chinese in Central Asia (with the exclusion of Uzbekistan).

Posted by: Nathan at November 7, 2003 06:51 AM

Half-liberal: A left-liberal mugged by reality.

I was mugged by reality a decade ago. In Bosnia.

But only now is anyone suggesting I'm a neocon. I guess Bill Clinton and the rest of the liberals were neocons in the mid 1990s and the GOP was a bunch of leftists.

(Sorry, I know you're not using that word as an insult, I'm just annoyed at the highly partisan nature of this whole discussion.)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 7, 2003 09:12 AM

We needed to get to Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden.

Speaking of which, it's been over two years. Could somebody please get around to allocating the resources necessary to run bin Laden to ground and capture or kill him? One of the great absurdities of the Iraq war was that bin Laden had the opportunity to comment on it as a free man.

Posted by: Kimmitt at November 7, 2003 09:57 AM

That is because you have fallen into the trap of thinking the word "neocon" is an insult thrown by partisans on the extreme Right and Left.

The word meant left-liberals who gradually became sickened in the 70s and 80s as the New Left took over the Democratic Party. Some have moved rightward, others toward the center. But they were mostly kicked out of the Left since they refrained from equating Regan with Hitler.

This trend pissed off the extreme Right "paleocons" as the GOP is now dominated by right-centrist-libertarian Neocons and right-libertarian Goldwaterites.

My point is that there seems to be a similar trend beginning again as the Dems have gone far-left. Since you tolerate Bush they will hate you. But you shouldn't let that dictate your principles. Like him or hate him, but David Horowitz's biography (_Radical Son_) has a lot of shades of what's happening now.

Posted by: HalfLiberal at November 7, 2003 11:28 AM

Posted by HalfLiberal at November 7, 2003 11:28 AM

> This trend pissed off the extreme
> Right "paleocons" as the GOP is now dominated
> by right-centrist-libertarian Neocons and right-
> libertarian Goldwaterites.

Exactly right. I'm a Reagan libertarian and someone first called me a neocon back in 1987.. Specifically because I refused to be associated with any of the old right ideas that I didn't agree with (so, the guy said I must be a 'neo'conservative).... I liked it and started using it myself…

Anyway, I'll throw in one more thing to you disaffected democrats.... The same thing we tell African Americans... if you don't like the republican platform, than join the party and help write it... A lot of us are not against things like social programs, we just don't like how the democrats set up the systems / administer them...

We voted for Arnold, we're flexible enough for you to fit in (you just need to read some Milton Friedman).

Posted by: Thomas at November 7, 2003 11:55 AM

"Speaking of which, it's been over two years. Could somebody please get around to allocating the resources necessary to run bin Laden to ground and capture or kill him?"

Actually not posting this as an attack. I think that Osama bin Laden will be identified by fossil, if ever. I do not think that he is up and moving anywhere. He was last located with any degree of confidence almost two years ago, and the place where he probably was got plastered. One of the fundamental problems the Soviets had was their capacity to identify and accurately target opponents in caves. While we cannot see through solid rock like Superman, the US has invested several billion dollars in this direction with pretty good results.

Additionally, a fair amount of effort has been put into deep penetration conventional munitions. The upshot of this is that hiding in deep caves, while excellent doctrine against the Soviets, was relatively suicidal against latest generation image analysis and ground penetration munitions. The problem with ground penetration munitions, though, is that bomb damage assesment is particularly difficult and can only be accomplished over a long time frame. If we buried bin Laden in a cave in Tora Bora, there would be no obvious indicators.

While it would be nice to have a bell go off, lights flash, and the theme from "Rocky" suddenly play on the extinguishment of a major malcontent, tedious old reality doesn't work that way. The best indication we have is that Osama hasn't shown up complaining about Ben and Jen breaking up or any other recent event. I'm not asking him to show up on the red carpet with Joan Rivers, (although that could play out as an overall win for civilization) but at least he could make some mention of how the war is going or that it is happening at all.

There is no significant indication that Osama bin Laden has been alive for more than a year.

Posted by: Patrick Lasswell at November 7, 2003 06:49 PM

I agree, Patrick. They showed the footage on various TV networks (originally provided to Al-Jazeera) of Osama walking around the hills of what was likely Afghanistan, and the experts determined that the video was shot in April. What they didn't clarify was ... April of what year? If the man were alive he would be on video identifying some recent event to prove his existence. I see no reason to believe he's anything but dead. I regret there's no body to confirm the evidence, though I'm confident that in Saddam's case the world will get to see the corpse.

Posted by: Peter G. at November 8, 2003 07:38 PM

I can't see writing off the Dems until we see who the nominee will be. Lieberman has been advocating taking Saddam out forever. He was also the first to advocate a Department of Homeland Security. His hawk credentials are unassailable. I would say the same for Edwards if he hadn't dropped the ball on the $87 billion. I think it will probably be Dean or Clark, in which case a vote for Bush might not look so bad. But I think Dems need to wait before they cut and run to Bush.

Posted by: pgg at November 9, 2003 08:40 AM

pgg,

I agree with everything you wrote in your post, which is why I haven't (yet?) cut and run from the Dems.

If I do cut and run, as you say, I'll be willing to go back as soon as they earn it.

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