Character doesn't matter in resistance fighters, Michael. People who oppose western liberalism get a free pass to commit atrocities. Remember the picture of the guy getting executed on the streets of Hue during the Tet offensive? Does anybody care at all how he had spent his morning?

Of course, the resistance is made up of varying parts well-armed Baathist irregulars, smuggled Al Qaeda operatives, and men who've lost something and wish to extract revenge. That's a little too complicated for this Administration, media, or blogosphere, though, so we're forced to watch everyone claim a monolithic entity, then watch each of them get shot down in turn.

Ah, there is nothing like getting talked down to first thing in the morning.

Thanks for the enlightenment, Kimmett. Here I was running around telling everyone who would listen that the the Iraqi "resistence" was a monolithic entity rather than varying parts well-armed Baathist irregulars, smuggled Al Qaeda operatives, and men who've lost something.

Never would have thought of THAT.

Duh.

Michael,

This is why the moonbats can't win the argument. They will always be stuck defending atrocities. They will then dig the hole deeper by desperately resorting to a postmodern moral equivalence and attacking America.

Well, I think some of these people might actually think an opposition similar to the one found in Iraq would be helpful against that infamous Vast Right Conspiracy.

Other than that, Tariq sounds simply stupid.

Gaijin,

And I find Tarig rather malicious vs. Kimmitt who is 'sophisticatedly' stupid. Being proud of Sadam 'freedom fighters' is not driven by stupidity.

I'll bet if anybody cares to dig, they'll find that Tariq Ali got money from Hussein, like Galloway.

I'm beginning to think Kimmitt did too.

I wish that "liberal hawks", instead of day after day engaging in more rhetorical bitch slapping of the Kucinichites and Deanites, would turn their attention to more pressing and difficult matters, such as whether the emerging US strategy of "Iraqification", as Fareed Zakaria calls it in his Washington Post column --speeding up the timetable for training Iraqi soldiers, speeding up U.S. troop withdrawals, turning over power to Chalabi and friends as quickly as possible -- is likely to lead to success or failure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60368-2003Nov3.html

It will depend on the Iraqis that get tapped for the security jobs. If they are any good at it, the plan will work. If not, the plan will fail.

Basically, there's only one way to find out.

Do you really think we’re that stupid?

They do. And that's the real problem.

I think Kimmitt's views are for the most part utterly benighted, and I certainly believe he uses rhetorical overkill quite a lot (why the nastiness of tone?), but I have no doubt he's arguing with us here in good faith. Therefore, I think the suggestion that he's a paid-up Saddamist (no doubt mocking, but nevertheless...) to be pretty unfair. Actually, it reminds me of the antics of the TBogg/Hesiod types: questioning of motivations rather than arguments. So let's not sink to that level (notice I didn't say "his," because although Kimmitt's spared no viciousness in making his views, to the best of my knowledge he HASN'T delegitimized the opposition in that manner - and I appreciate that. It's sad that it's come to this, where I'm impressed at a leftist who doesn't immediately call the opposition evil or disingenuous...)

Now, to swiftly contradict myself: as for Tariq Ali, I have to try ever-so-desperately to resist classifying him as "evil." I know, I know, that's exactly the type of thing I'm warning against above, but the sheer malevolence of so many of his remarks turns my stomach in a way few commentators are capable of doing. The suggestion that the so-called 'resistance' in Iraq is at least better than any official opposition present in the United States or the UK...words fail me.

Re: Patrick

I believe the guy who was executed in the picture you described throwed a grendade into a police station that morning. The chief of police did a summary execution (one of the killed was his best friend). It wasn't pretty, it wasn't exactly civilized, but it was also in the middle of a war. As a terrorist caught in war without uniform, he wasn't afford the protection of the law.

Isn't it completely unimportant exactly who the terrorists are or why they are doing what they are doing except insofar as it pertains to stopping them from doing it?

These folks have dehumanized themselves by their actions. There are two ways to deal with that. One way is to think functionally, instrumentally, take for granted that they intend to do X, and ask oneself how to stop them. Another way is to deny them moral agency, thinking that their desire to do X is purely a reaction to things we are doing, and think about how we can change to diminish that desire.

I rather prefer the first way of thinking about things, at least for the civilian-attacking cream of the crop. Their enmity toward an open society is something that only defeat will stop -- and that's really the common thread. Other differences, Baathist or al Qaeda, or whatnot, those are relevant only on a tactical level.

Tariq Ali's admiration for Iraqi terrorists is the most disgusting examples of a left intellectual's romance with nihilism since Gore Vidal became Tim McVeigh's prison pen pal.

"These folks have dehumanized themselves by their actions."

No, unfortunately, such actions are "human, all too human."

"There are two ways to deal with that...take for granted that they intend to do X, and ask oneself how to stop them...[or] deny them moral agency...[and] think about how we can change to diminish that desire."

I would suggest that most occupying forces in history have found it advisable to do both: eliminate the active opposition, while engaging in practices that discourage other members of the occupied peoples from joining the opposition. Interesting in this regard that Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces, seems to see things the same way:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44374-2003Oct30.html

You missed Mr. Tariq Ali's incredible statement that "Few can deny that Iraq under US occupation is in a much worse state than it was under Saddam Hussein."

Isn't it completely unimportant exactly who the terrorists are or why they are doing what they are doing except insofar as it pertains to stopping them from doing it?

Yes.

Which makes their motivations massively important.

BigFire,

The description of events I got from somebody who was in country at the time and whose father was a staff officer in Saigon was the following: The Viet Cong went to the homes of all the government officials in Hue. The individual executed had be captured shortly after butchering the deputy commisioner of police's wife and children. The commissioner of police was somewhat distressed to discover what had happened to his godchildren and performed the execution. Although there is not a jury in the tradiditon of English Common Law that would have convicted him, the police commisioner was tried under a different system. In media court, the Republic of Vietnam was found guilty and in leftist court he was found guilty. In truth, that picture probably lost the war, too.

The frightening thing about al Jazeera and al Arabiya is that they know this and have shown every sign of trying to reproduce this phenomenon. Character doesn't mattter to video, only image.

Patrick, that is my recollection of the Vietnam photo also (via my dad's DOD intel buddies).

Wow Michael, we are thinking alike this week. Last night I blogged an article with quotes on exactly this subject carried by Institute For War And Peace. I was led there by The Argus... which, coincidently, I was led to from your blog roll yesterday.

"Synchronicity, synchronicity (la la la)" - The Police

Good description and comment Pat.

That photo lost the war? Wow, did you forget about the other famous photo of the girl running away from a napalm strike? Actually, I'd say a popular resistance movement supplied by the USSR won the Vietnam war. Cheer up! You can always blame the French.

A good report on the photo is here.

http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vietimages/vcexec.htm

It dwells more heavily on the character of Gen. Loan than on the prisoner, but then the General had more history and was more accessible. He died in Burke, Va. July 16, 1998.

Michael,

Why the scare quotes around "resistance"? They are resisting the occupation, which makes them the resistance, whether you approve of them or not. Pretending they don't really exist will not make them go away. And as Kimmit points out, the resistance is not at all homogenous. It is not one resistance, but many. There are some elements of the former regime, there are some Islamic fundamentalists, some bitter former army personnel, and a lot of Iraqis who simply have no wish to trade one unelected master for another. Just because we think we are doing the right thing does not mean they have to agree. Further, a distinction must be drawn between those elements of the resistance which engage in terrorist attacks on civilians and international organizations, and those which attack US forces. Like it or not, occupying forces are legitimate targets under international law. And please, don't accuse me of wanting Americans to die. My brother is a reservist and may be heading there soon. I have no desire for him to be killed. Understanding is not approval, which is a concept some seem to have trouble understanding.

I have a question for those who think the Iraqi “resistance” is popular. Why would we create an armed Iraqi security force of 200,000 people if they hated us? Wouldn’t that be like arming the Vietcong? Do you really think we’re that stupid?
Stupid? Maybe. Shortsighted? Definitely. I don't see what arming a security force has to do with the popularity of the resistance. We did not arm the Viet Cong, but we did arm ARVN, which would seem to be a much better analogy. Does that show that the Viet Cong were not popular? Nobody claims that ALL of the Iraqis hate us. There are Iraqis who support us, and there are Iraqis who hate us. My sympathies are with those who like us, but I can't make the others go away by closing my eyes and wishing real hard. If you doubt that the resistance has a large degree of popular support, why have we not caught more of the perpetrators of attacks? Iraq is a densely populated country, they can't slip about unseen. They are being sheltered by the civilian population, which would indicate a fair degree of popular support. I suspect the creation of an Iraqi security force has more to do with creating an exit strategy for the administration before the elections than with any groundswell of support for the occupation. Take Markus' advice and go read Zakaria's op-ed for a better analysis than I can provide.

Smokey: Why the scare quotes around "resistance"?

Good question.

The reason is because "resistance" has positive connotations for me, as it does for the left generally. (Maybe it does for certain kinds of conservatives, too, but I must admit I don't really know.)

The words "dissident" and "activist" also have positive connotations, and it drives me straight up the wall when those words are used to describe Hamas and Al Qaeda, as though they deserve the same descriptor as Vaclav Havel, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela.

When I hear the word "resistance," I think of the French Resistance, not fascists, terrorists, and war criminals.

Smokey, you fail to understand the situation, which isn't entirely your fault. Rather, a general lack of knowledge of history for most Westerners. The situation in Iraq isn't Vietnam redux, its Lebannon redux. What is happening now is a low level Iraqi Civil War. Most of the attacks being carried out now are being carried out by Sunni Arabs, who constitute 20% of the population. They used to be in charge, and want to be in charge again. Among their ranks are three types: common criminals(who get paid to attack Americans), Bathists(who want the good ole days of Saddam back), and Islamist jihadis, who want to kill Americans. Notice how almost all of the attacks are in the Sunni triangle, not the north or south. The Kurds are strongly on our side, the Shia less so. But the Sunnis are split. Many hate us for ruining their days of lording it over the rest of the Iraqis. They want it back, and will do anything to get pack power. This includes tolerating Islamists from other nations.

Note: An exception exists in Ansar Al-Islam, the Kurdish Al Qaida affiliate. They are Kurdish Sunni Islamists, who Saddam used to fight a proxy war against the Kurds. Terrorists, all of them. They are responsible for the attacks in the north.

Michael,

But that is precisely my point. To the Iraqis, they ARE the same as the French Resistance. By demonizing them and refusing to admit that they have a legitimate greivance, we will never be able to resolve the situation short of all-out war or full retreat. I don't suggest that you must agree with them, simply admit that they might not all be evil terrorists. There are, obviously, evil terrorists in Iraq, and they should be dealt with as such. But to paint the entire resistance with that same brush is to doom us to failure. Perception has a way of becoming reality.

Michael, rather than call it 'resistance', it should be called "insurgency", or perhaps (to borrow from the Reds) counter-revolution, or maybe reactionary opposition. Hmm, none of them have same ring as resistance though...

Smokey, they DO NOT have a legitimate grievance. They are simple lifetime losers, who are angry that they are out of power and want the good old days back. Or Islamic jihadis. Sorry to ruin your parade, but they aren't the good guys, unless your worldview makes accomadations for tryants or theocrats.

FH,

Smokey does not side with the Iraqi "resistance."

"Smokey, they DO NOT have a legitimate grievance."

In one's eagerness to disparage people who insist that there is more to this situation than a manichean struggle of good vs. evil, one might fail to consider how an Iraqi who was not terrorized by Saadam, because he or she followed orders, stayed out of trouble, and belonged to the right ethnic group, would wind up more hostile toward the Coalition due to the terrible security situation, or due to a lack of access to UN food supplies that the Baath regime very carefully doled out to those who toed the line. They're not being depraved, just human.

Smokey,

One word, armbands. If you wear an armband, you are resistance, if you do not wear an armband you are a terrorist. I know that this sounds stupid, but this is the truth. The possibility of being recognized as a legitimate target of war is the difference between being a lawful combattant and being a terrorist. If you do not allow the troops you are fighting with to recognize you in the field, you are not protected under the Geneva Accords that the United States has agreed to. The French Resistance wore armbands during operations. Not universally and the SS frequently disregarded the rules of war, but armbands were worn, most regularly after June 6, 1944.

The Baathist holdouts and al Queda terrorists do not wear armbands or show any signs of interest in obeying any Geneva Accords. They have not identified themselves as combattants ever, and they have no government in absentia that supports them. This is about killing infidels, not wearing armbands.

Markus Rose, what you say is right, about some Baath-esque Iraqis being "human". But they do not have a legitimate grievance. If they do, then it would have been wrong for anyone to depose Saddam. But you wouldn't say that if a coup of oppressed Iraqis had toppled Saddam, then the Baath-esque ones would have a legitimate grievance, would you? So, what difference does it make if the U.S. does the toppling instead? Merely human, they were nevertheless on the side of evil, which does exist dispite the falsity of Manicheism. Ordinary humans are capable of great evil, even if they aren't a freakish Saddam or Hitler.

Sorry Smokey. I didn't mean to try and accuse you of being a terrorist sympathizer. Its just that I wanted to point out that sometimes people really are all bad, and no good. And in retrospect I really shouldn't have been as over-encompassing as I was by saying they didn't have any legitimate grievances. I have no evidence to think that they do, but philosophically, that doesn't mean that they can't.

Patrick, after reading your statement about armbands, I have question for you: By any chance were you ever in the army, and an engineer?

Quoth I:
Isn't it completely unimportant exactly who the terrorists are or why they are doing what they are doing except insofar as it pertains to stopping them from doing it?

Quoth Kimmet:

Yes.

Which makes their motivations massively important.

Um, no; opposite of what I said. My point is that the motivations are no longer important in light of what these people are willing to do: manifestly, the worst they possibly can.

I'm not speaking of every Iraqi unhappy with the US presence there. What's so hard about accepting that the type of people who will plan, eg, the Red Cross bombing aren't to be negotated with or accomodated as a matter of fact, not as a choice of policy?

The motivations anyway seem pretty simple - they were the people shoving the boot in the face of the Iraqi people formerly, and they're hoping if they kill enough then they'll get another shot at it. The problem here is that they're fundamentally enemies of an open society.

It's pretty facile to lump these guys in with the guy who's pissed because a US patrol kicked in his door at 1AM, or pissed because he can't get a job. These people aren't blowing up their neighbors. The motivations of these people matter.

Tagging mistake: Kimmet also said

Which makes their motivations massively important.

FH,

I am a veteran, I spent eight years on active duty in the Navy and a brief, regretable period afterwards in the National Guard. (People who spend a lot of time improving shipboard safety skills really should not attempt light infantry, the training conflicts are great.) I have worked in the engineering field, but I have never been anywhere near combat engineering.

I realize that the explanation I gave about lawful combattants may appear to be from a bygone age, but it is the basis for the Geneva Accords. Show up without an identifier like a uniform or an armband and you are not a lawful combattant. Some of our Special Forces folks got their balls busted for going native in Afghanistan. If they showed up without identifiers, it made it less reasonable to send folks to Guantanamo as unlawful combattants. The Geneva Accords were not designed to make the Special Forces jobs easier, go figure.

Patrick,

Armbands? C'mon, I've seen Red Dawn a couple dozen times and I've never seen any armbands on the Wolverines. Seriously, though, that's a good point. To gain status under the Geneva Conventions, the resistance would have to wear some sort of identification during combat operations against coalition forces. As most of those operations consist of ambushes with IEDs and/or RPGs and mortar attacks in which forces never engage in combat, I'm not sure of the applicability of the identification provisions. Honestly, I haven't seen any reports out of Iraq one way or the other on this issue of whether the resistance identifies themselves during combat. If you know of any, send them my way and I'll take a look. I will say that I don't think that the lack of an armband makes one a terrorist, as it's generally accepted that terrorism involves violence against non-combatants. I'll agree that the lack of armbands or other identification means the resistance would probably not be afforded Geneva protections, but the distinction would then be between lawful/unlawful combatant, not resistance/terrorist.

Just an afterthought to my last post. Whether or not we regard the Iraqi resistance as legitimate or illegitimate, lawful or unlawful combatants, terrorist or freedom fighter, is functionally irrelevant. I think we can agree that the most important goal vis a vis the resistance is to get them to stop killing our soldiers. From this standpoint, it matters little what our view of them is, and much more what their view of themselves is. This is not to engage in some pomo moral relativism, just to suggest that pragmatism should take precedence over finely parsed legalities. Declaring them all terrorists does not seem a fruitful path towards our ultimate goal of a free and peaceful Iraq.

Smokey,

The thing that actually matters about armbands is that they indicate at least some willingness to establish a government under the rule of law if the wearers should actually win. That is the difference between terrorists and resistance. Terrorists hold no hope and show no interest in ever abiding by the rule of law. That is why they are treated as wolves are under international law, and I don't mean tagging and relocation.

Under international law, terrorists are dangerous vermin, legal to be exterminated. This is a problem because it invites our troops and allies to excess, a tactic that has worked before: http://pslasswell.blogspot.com/execution.jpg This is a desired result for the people who run terror campaigns.

"I have a question for those who think the Iraqi “resistance” is popular. Why would we create an armed Iraqi security force of 200,000 people if they hated us? Wouldn’t that be like arming the Vietcong? Do you really think we’re that stupid?"

Yes. Is there some reason I shouldn't?

For the Bush administration it isn't entirely stupidity so much as it is about values. Their paramount value is reelection. They are looking for opportunities to push out problems past November 2004. They desperately need an exit strategy and pursue that instead of a victory strategy.

But as for you, Michael, I do think you are that stupid.

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