November 03, 2003
America First?
Cara Remal compares today’s anti-war leftists to yesterday’s right-wing America Firsters, among others.
She includes some fascinating Dr. Seuss cartoons from World War II. One shows a woman reading a story to her children.
And the wolf chewed up the children and spit out their bones…But those were foreign children and it didn’t really matter.Keith Berry was furious.
He thinks Cara is “rubbish,” and provides this obnoxious response:
[W]ho gives a fat rat's ass if the Iraqi people are sleeping better when compared to the deaths of nearly 400 American men and women?I can’t think of the last time I read such a counterproductive rebuttal. Who gives a fat rat’s ass about the Iraqis? Well, I do. But to Keith Berry the dead children were foreign children, so they didn’t really matter.
Nice attitude, Keith. It is oh so liberal and inspiring.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2003 12:59 AM3.7 billion dollars could have saved 870,000 dead per year. Iraq had nothing to do with the Iraqis.
Posted by: Kimmitt at November 3, 2003 01:02 AMGREAT point, Michael -- I care about the Iraqis, too.
I also care about the 2+ million Cambodians murdered by commie Pol Pot, after the Left won the Vietnam argument and the US ran away. I wonder when the Vietnam comparisons will get to the aftermath comparison. The anti-War Left has never acknowleded their realpolitik support/ acceptance of such foreign genocide.
Posted by: Tom Grey at November 3, 2003 02:27 AMKimmitt again misses the point completely. That 3.7 billion would have NEVER gotten to the kiddies. It would have been grafted off by Hussien, his sons and cronies.
Posted by: eric at November 3, 2003 05:00 AMLet's just hope America won't be led by people who don't give a fat rat's ass about anybody else. You could clearly see the majority of Europe already doesn't, and would gladly continue trading with Saddam. I'm afraid none of the current Dem presidential candidates would do better than GWB (which is why he is so hated, isn't it?).
Posted by: Tomas Kohl at November 3, 2003 06:45 AMPerhaps I have been in Planet Mars without knowing but to my best knowledge liberals never cared about the death of cops or servicemen (at least as long as they are not KGB, Khmer Rouge, Taleban, Iraqui Republican Guard). I ever thought American (or first-world) cops and servicemen were not real humans for a dyed in the wool liberal. Have the things changed during my interplanet travel?
Posted by: JFM at November 3, 2003 06:45 AMMike,
In re-reading Cara's ENTIRE POST and not simply the CliffsNotes you provide, and re-reading my ENTIRE POST and not simply the single sentence you took from it, I can happily tell you this:
I STAND BY EVERY WORD.
Labels mean a lot to you, don't they Mike? You point out that Cara is a 'Life-long left-liberal', and mockingly point out that my sentence was 'oh so liberal'. Rather than worry about labeling people, perhaps you might want to spend your time actually reading everything somebody has written. Although, I must say, your way of doing things led to this post:
http://www.berrysworld.blogspot.com/2003_11_02_berrysworld_archive.html#106787333382409121
By the way, if you are looking for inspiration, I'd suggest you turn to the bible or Tony Robbins.
Keith
Posted by: Keith Berry at November 3, 2003 07:30 AMStand by every word, eh?
That's unfortunate. Really unfortunate.
Posted by: DennisThePeasant at November 3, 2003 08:55 AMKimmitt:
Maybe Iraq had nothing to do with the Iraqis in the evil minds of the Great Neoconservative Warmongerers Cabal of 2003, who cynically lied their way into a war that they didn't even really beieve in; but the quality of Iraq's "government" was likely to have a lot of importance to the Iraqis themselves.
Good line, though.
Posted by: Daniel Calto at November 3, 2003 09:44 AMKimmit, either you are ignorant, or evil. Have you already forgotten the huge warehouses full of food in Iraq found by US and UK soldiers?
Posted by: FH at November 3, 2003 11:24 AMIt should be little doubted that the Iraqis wanted to be free of Saddam Hussein and his regime. So then, why did they not revolt against him? They had tried, and died. Some 300,000, Kurds and Shiites mostly, were butchered after the abortive attempt to depose Saddam in 1991.
Why didn't the Iraqi Republican Guard, the Fedayeen, and the army join with that revolution and defy Saddam? From what we know of the Baath party machine, it would have been suicide. A mutiny cannot be coordinated when your "friend" may be an agent of the Baath. This is described in Kanan Makiya's Republic of Fear.
But consider what happened when the Iraqi Freedom coalition marched on Baghdad. Mass surrenders, capitulation, limited resistance. The number one reason why the nation was conquered in 3 weeks? Saddam's army was not willing to be annihilated to keep him in power.
So here we have something of a conundrum. On the one hand, Saddam's army massacred fellow Iraqis, fellow Muslims, to keep Saddam in power in 1991, and yet rolled over when a foreign, Western military drove in.
Was the difference was the relative level of strength, the power and might behind the coalition, versus the weakness and disorganization of the Shia and Kurd fighters? Certainly, Saddam's soldiers did not wave the white flag because they love us or prefer our rule to the Iraqi insurgency, but they feared us. Surely there should have been more "sympathy" towards their countymen's cause than ours.
Those that opposed Iraqi Freedom (and the continued US presence), for whatever reason, would at least admit, it is to be hoped, that if the Iraqi people had only had enough power to remove Saddam, they would have. Can we doubt, for even a moment, that such a revolution would have been far, far bloodier, and far more destructive? History provides a readily available and entirely cogent case study from which to extrapolate the consequences of a revolution: the aforementioned 1991 uprising.
So then, our number one ally, the Iraqi people, lost far fewer in their dream to remove Saddam, thanks to our help. The loosely estimated civilain casualty count of 8,000 (which does not factor how many died as a result of Saddam's actions) looks quite ugly, until one remembers the death toll from 1991-- and realizes that a new revolt's losses would be fifty-fold higher. Saddam's army would not have surrendered to any internal rebellion (if not then, why now?)-- would not have laid down their weapons and gone home in response to the southern and northern cities marching on Baghdad, as they did facing us.
It's quite simple, really. If you opposed Iraqi Freedom, would you have opposed an internal revolution, too? If not, how do you ignore that so many more would have died without us? Are higher casualties preferable?
Or does opposition to Iraqi Freedom emanate more from an antipathy to the United States, and her power, than an empathy for the Iraqis?
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Posted by: Bleeding Heart Conservative at November 3, 2003 12:03 PMKimmitt again misses the point completely. That 3.7 billion would have NEVER gotten to the kiddies. It would have been grafted off by Hussien, his sons and cronies.
I'm talking about the total cost of ending measles permanently worldwide, not just in Iraq. Learn to read, jerk.
And if the guys running the war and the occupation can be fairly conclusively shown not to give a rat's ass about the Iraqis, I humbly submit that they aren't going to do a very good job handling the aftermath. If we're going to stake the US's international credibility on people who we know are going to fuck up, could we at least do it for a little less money?
Posted by: Kimmitt at November 3, 2003 12:23 PMHelp me out Kimmit, where in:
3.7 billion dollars could have saved 870,000 dead per year. Iraq had nothing to do with the Iraqis. do you refer to measles?
Keith,
"I STAND BY EVERY WORD."
Then in the spirit of affirmation, we will endeavor to despise every word. We would like to be civil instead, but you show no sign of compromise. Here's the thing, we know that there is no equivalence in ultimate sacrifice. Body counts never balance. It is comparing relative infinites and doing so results in a null sum.
There is no rational communication with people who are experiencing obsessive grief. All we can do is note that you did not have the character to endure what we consider to be regretable by necessary losses. We expect, through rational deduction of factual evidence, that failure to risk these losses would result in grave risk to ourselves. Your expression of concern is too intractable to be dealt with pleasantly at a time where unified support is critical. There is not time to help you develop the mental rigor necessary for all our survival, since you are by your own admission inconsolable.
Put more succinctly: Cowboy up or get off your high horse.
Posted by: Patrick Lasswell at November 3, 2003 02:02 PMSaddam was no threat to us. Anybody who says otherwise is a liar.
Keith
Posted by: Keith Berry at November 3, 2003 03:49 PMKeith,
Put down the bong.
19 guys with boxcutters were a threat to us.
A punk with fertilizer in a ryder truck was threat to us.
A tyrant with a history of mass slaughter... a tyrant who was humiliated in a rout in 1991... a dictator who was apt to attack us by proxy with biochem or dirty bomb materiel...
WAS A THREAT TO US.
He was certainly a threat to peace.
By the way, most of congress and the UN are liars in your opinion.
Is it the Iraqis you hate, or is it America?
Posted by: better than me at November 3, 2003 04:15 PMKeith,
You obviously know very little, but what little you know means much to you.
You have not read the Kay report. Nor L. Mylroie. Nor Sec Cohen's remarks after Desert Fox... that the threat was delayed by only a year. (defenselink.mil) In fact, I am certain you have read little of anything but indymedia. You have no capacity to speak on an issue of this complexity. It is beyond you.
You sit in front of a computer, having lived in provincial coddled life, and blather about subjects you nothing of. Your temerity is exceeded only by your ignorance. You presume to know more than the intelligence agenceis of several countries. Or you presume to call them liars, which is equally pompous.
You are an idiot.
Posted by: Erin at November 3, 2003 04:22 PMDamn,
I've been found out. I'm nothing but an America-hating, bong-hitting, indy-media reading, provincially coddled, ignorant idiot.
I'd hate to think what you all might say if you really knew me.
Keith
Posted by: Keith Berry at November 3, 2003 05:28 PMI feel like I know you already, Keith.
You're every guy I've ever inched away from at a social gathering.
Posted by: DennisThePeasant at November 3, 2003 06:29 PMDennis,
I doubt you inch away from any guys at 'social' gatherings. However, it is nice to be hated by the 'freeper-lite' crowd.
Keith
Posted by: Keith Berry at November 3, 2003 07:28 PMA slur on my manhood? I'll scratch your eyes out.
The homophobia is a nice touch though, Dearie, and does add a bit to the impression you've made.
Posted by: DennisThePeasant at November 4, 2003 05:33 AMKeith sounds like he might be a closet metrosexual with a confederate flag sticker on the back of his truck.
Posted by: d-rod at November 4, 2003 10:47 AMDennis and d-rod,
Just remember, you've only had to be disappointed and disgusted with Keith for a little while. He's had to be disappointed and disgusted with himself his whole life. This is not somebody who is going to change merely because he is wrong, he's invested too much into being wrong to let rational considerations interfere.
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