October 26, 2003

The New Skinheads (Updated)

I thought the organizers of anti-war demonstrations had reached the nadir of their depravity. But I was wrong. The downward slide continues.

We already knew that the organizing activists are Stalinists. The Workers World Party and its "anti-war" front International ANSWER make no secret of it.

The WWP claims on their Web site:

We don't jump on the bandwagon when Third World leaders are demonized.
Thatís an understatement.

Here is an article they recently published praising Kim Jong Ilís repulsive prison-and-barracks state in North Korea. The writer Tom Scahill swoons over the totalitarian state's ďaccomplishmentsĒ and canít find a single thing to admonish.

Meanwhile, International ANSWER throws in its lot with the fascists.

The anti-war movement here and abroad must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance.

Its unconditional support.

Well. Iím glad they cleared that up.

The so-called ďresistanceĒ is made up of three primary groups. Saddamís Baathist remnants, local theocratic Islamists, and foreign foot soldiers for Al Qaeda.

I can forgive those on the old left who once had a romance with Communism. As Leszek Kolakowski wrote, Communism is the degenerate bastard child of the Enlightenment. Vicious as it was, at least some of the ideas sounded nice. The results were horrific; engineered famines, mass graves, prison camps, and bone piles. But equality and solidarity were the rallying cries. It was an irresistible siren song for some well-meaning fools.

Fascism, though, is another matter. It isnít a bastard child of the liberal Enlightenment. It is deliberately anti-Enlightenment. Freedom, equality, and global solidarity are hardly the talking points. It is explicitly belligerent and genocidal. Look at the Baath Party and its racist ethnic cleansing campaign against Jews and Shiites and Kurds. Look at the Islamists and their brutal persecution of secularists and ďinfidels,Ē their perverse dream of a global Islamic Inquisition. They would put the Jews to the sword. They promise to turn the United States into a sea of deadly radiation. They throw acid in the faces of unveiled women. The Baathists massacred ethnic minorities with chemical weapons. They fed dissidents into tree shredders.

These are the people for whom the anti-war organizers express their "unconditional support."

This isnít Marxism. Itís not a ďgood causeĒ gone bad. Itís fascism all over again with Islamic characteristics.

The hindsight of history gave old Communists some slack, so long as they didnít commit atrocities themselves. Supporters of European fascism didnít get off so easy. They are unsparingly damned by history.

Supporters of Middle Eastern fascism may find a similar terrible judgement awaiting them in the future. Those in the West are the 21st Century's skinheads.


POSTSCRIPT: Let me clear up any potential misunderstanding in advance. I am referring specifically to the rally organizers at ANSWER, not to every person who shows up to protest or who opposes the war.


UPDATE: Yesterday the "resistance" carried out a terrorist massacre against aid workers in Baghdad. An ambulance was loaded up with a car bomb and then detonated in front of the International Red Cross. This is what International ANSWER supports unconditionally.

UPDATE: Some peace activists agree with me.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at October 26, 2003 09:30 PM
Comments

Although by this late date I personally find it hard to give much slack to those who march under a Stalinist group's banner without any consideration of who these people really are. Fellow travelers who later claimed not to know what crimes were occurring thousands of miles away can no longer make that claim in the age of satellite communications and the Web.

I suspect a disturbingly high number of those in attendance know exactly who they've aligned themselves with and either approve or don't care.

Posted by: Eric Pobirs at October 26, 2003 11:15 PM

I cannot forgive those that had a romance with Communism. They supported atrocities that were not different--actually much worse--than those of any known Fascist. Most are still defending those atrocities or prefer to forget them (except leftist European intellectuals that practice both depending on the circumstances). We should always remember what they did and we should never minimize what they would do if they were in power today.

Posted by: Edgardo Barandiaran at October 27, 2003 01:43 AM

"But equality and solidarity were the rallying cries. It was an irresistible siren song for some well-meaning fools."

..so are the cries for "stability and order" that seduce fascism's useful idiots. I would even argue that these are more well-meaning motivations than cries for "equality", which rarely mean well for the particular target needing to be "equalised".

Posted by: Adrian at October 27, 2003 03:49 AM

Fascism, though, is another matter. It isn’t a bastard child of the liberal Enlightenment.

Actually, it is a near-twin to Communism, and both are the immediate offspring of Marxism.

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/004802.html#004802

Both are equally abhorrent.

Posted by: R C Dean at October 27, 2003 03:57 AM

Michael,

Communism is the degenerate bastard child of the Enlightenment...Fascism, though, is another matter. It isn’t a bastard child of the liberal Enlightenment. It is deliberately anti-Enlightenment.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, a thousand times WRONG!

Fascism is one bastard step-child of Marxism/Socialism and like its communist sibling is just one reactionary alternative to liberal Enlightenment. The primary reason Germany became the quintessential fascist state is because Bismarck's Germany was a socialist state. Hitler was a manifestation of socialism carried to its ultimate conclusion just as Stalin was. Germans are no more inherently militant or anti-Semitic than any other people. But like all socialist states, they will eventually need a scapegoat for the inevitable failures of socialism.

And if you want to understand the resurgance of anti-Semitism and anti-American in Europe, don't look to the policies and Sharon and Bush. Look to the socialist policies of the EUrocrats. European socialists policies are failing. Their economies are stagnating with 10% and climbing structural unemployment. They have tens of thousands die in heat waves. Fascism is returning to Europe because Europe is socialist. Whether they wake up and change course before the inevitable bloodbath is not at all certain.

Why do left leaning people insist on trying to distinguish between Communism and Fascism? How is it that socialist intellectuals have managed to convince us that National Socialism has nothing to do with socialism, and that the Soviet Union was just a matter of good intentions being hijacked? Hitler and Stalin were idealogical siblings and both were bastard step-children of Marx. Please read some Hayek.

Until we wake up to the fact that fascism is the natural outcome of socialism, we will continue to repeat the same mistakes. America like any other nation isn't immune to this progression, even if our Constition makes it somewhat more difficult.

Beware the "progressives" because they will have us progressing into fascism.

Posted by: HA at October 27, 2003 04:03 AM

You're psychotic* -- Fascism is a reaction to Marxism; it is an attempt to fight against the modernity of which Marxism is a thread. I understand that it may be politically incorrect for you to take up the mantle of the philosophy which describes your worldview, but you may wish to do some reading of your Mussolini -- this is a guy whose political philosophy (wars of expansion; support of Christianity against invading Muslims, atheists and pagans; suppression of a corrupt democratic process) is extremely close to your own. It may be time for you to rehabilitate "fascist," the same way that you've already rehabilitated its respectable cousin.

*Just doing my HA-requested part to degrade the national discourse. Never let it be said that I am not willing to accomodate my opponents' requests.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 04:29 AM

"POSTSCRIPT: Let me clear up any potential misunderstanding in advance. I am referring specifically to the rally organizers at ANSWER, not to every person who shows up to protest or who opposes the war."

Fine. Same here, with one caveat: if the antiwar movement continues to allow their marches and demonstrations be run and organized by ANSWER, then they deserve every single verbal* brickbat thrown their way. I don't care if ANSWER is really, really good at getting permits: they're nasty people with a nasty agenda, and the rest of the antiwar coalition is tainted by giving them a voice.

Not that I expect them to listen to the Right-winger, of course.

Moe

*Only verbal though. I respect their Constitutional right to speak their minds, and I expect them to respect mine to do the same.

In fact, they'd damn well better.

Posted by: Moe Lane at October 27, 2003 06:05 AM

Let's do a thought experiment:

Let us suppose that the following were shown, unimpeachably, in various courts of law:

1) It Really Was All About The Oil. Various energy department memos, pre- and post-9/11 briefings, and sobbing whistleblowers come forward, and the case is airtight; the Bush Administration planned to conquer Iraq since before taking office, and it planned to do so for the purpose of securing long-term American access to oil fields. The democracy/human rights business was explicitly a smokescreen.

2) Most of the White House Senior Staff, including the President, were either part of the burning of Valerie Plame or knew about it and actively sought to cover it up.

At that point, given that the Iraq war would have been organized by a gang of brutal, reckless thugs, would it suddenly become unjustified*? That is, do "good" acts organized by bad people always become "bad" acts?

*assuming one found it justified in the first place, of course.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 06:21 AM

That would depend on the results, Kimmitt. Assuming that the above was true - and, by the way, if your scenario were true, it would have played out already, in precisely the matter that you described* - and if the end result was a democratic and peaceful Iraq, then the proper response would be to arrest all the bast*rds who started the war and revel in the delicious irony that their evil rebounded to good. If the end result was a regime as bad as Saddam's, then of course the war was unjustified.

Luckily for all of us, it doesn't apply, as this war wasn't really about the oil, Ted Kennedy's voting record to the contrary. For that matter, given that the particular... individuals... mentioned in Michael Totten's post - that would be International ANSWER, for those playing at home - were and are explicitly against the overthrow of Hussein's regime (and if anyone thinks that they'd change their tune if a Democrat is in office, well, that's fascinating to hear), with all that entails and implies, I feel comfortable enough with saying that nothing 'good' could come from their (extremely unlikely) success, so it's not quite the same analogy.

Moe

*Note that I speak of #1. #2 is still being investigated as we speak.

PS: That "willing to accomodate my opponents' requests" bit got a honest, nonmocking chuckle from me. Just so you don't think that I'm always scornful.

Posted by: Moe Lane at October 27, 2003 07:33 AM

the thought experiment - I would believe that ending sanctions, preventing Iraq from becoming the next North Korea, doing our best to bring democracy (or at least some semblance of sanity) to Iraq and the Middle East was and is a necessary and useful goal. I would also believe that we should continue to do whatever we can to prevent the spread of Islamic and Baathist-style fascism in that part of the world.

This fascism must be fought by any means possible. They are an enemy that must be confronted. I would believe this even if Karl Rove was frog-marched out of the White House. I would believe this even if Bush was impeached.

In his tech central column, Michael says:

"Excessive bipartisanship is the functional equivalent of a one-party state. What we need is an implicit understanding that despite our disagreements we are on the same side. Because we are on the same side. Murderous fanatics are trying to kill us. Save the talk of "enemies" and "evil" for them."

So, Kimmitt, are the people who carried out the terrorist massacre against aid workers our enemies? What do you think should be done about them?

Posted by: mary at October 27, 2003 07:35 AM

Let's be realistic here. The 1920's was the last decade where one could realistically plead ignorance of the evil of communism. And I'd be very careful in that regard, too.

It is the Left's refusal to condemn communism without some kind of escape clause that really alarms me. The Right had this same problem regarding fascism in the run-up to WWII, but dumped it once and for all afterwards.

Look, any ideology promises some version of a utopia. People have an obligation as actors in the political process to consider the realistic consequences (good and bad) of their policy preferences. In hindsight, there is some 'partial credit' to be had, depending on how unforseen those consequences are. But the ultimate judgement needs to be on outcomes, not intentions.

The ideology of communism specifically endorses violent dismantlement of the capitalist, democratic system. Even in its most idealistic, "we'll-just-change-human-nature" version, it still demands that. The rest is just nuance and scale.

After Stalin, there could be little further doubt. After Mao, there can be none whatsoever.

Fascism, communism and the various theocratic movements all have defenders among pro-democracy forces. Would you cut the Taliban similar slack because they're doing what they think is "Allah's will"? Hell, even Sauron of Mordor wasn't evil in the beginning. :)

If the war that you and I supported in Iraq turns out to be ill-conceived, then our good intentions shouldn't completely absolve us. International ANSWER, for their support of brutal dictators and their pursuit of the overthrow of our democratic system, should get no sympathy whatsoever.

I know that most of the intent of your post is opposite to the portion I'm calling out. My focus is where it is because it makes a larger point about intentions. I'll save connecting the chain all the way to a point about demonization for my own blog. :)

Posted by: Rob at October 27, 2003 08:25 AM

r.e. flirting with Communism. I did in high school (during the Vietnam war) As I became educated about communism, I quickly abandoned it. I now think it is the most evil manifestation of humanity.

Posted by: billhedrick at October 27, 2003 08:40 AM

UPDATE: I just read your article on TCS. Fantastic job... and makes exactly the point I just got ready to attempt, only better.

I'd still say be careful about judging people by their purported intentions. It's a measure that oft goes astray, and encourages willful ignorance.

Wow, it's just like a liberal to ruthlessly get me to start parroting Sartre!!! LOL

Posted by: Rob at October 27, 2003 08:45 AM

The commie shoots 'em in the head,
The facist, in the skull.
Their ideological differences
For victims, rather null.

Posted by: Stephen at October 27, 2003 10:37 AM

Prize Money! It's all about the prize money! The only reason our troops and the administration are interested in going to Iraq is all the oil money they will be sharing out after the place is secure. The generals will all be millionaires tax free and even the private soldiers will be wealthy enough to purchase a cottage in the country. As for those avaricious bastards in the administration, the billions they recieve will fill up their vaults with mounds of golden treasure that they will wallow in up to their necks!

No, wait a moment, the US hasn't endorsed that kind of military prize policy for more than 150 years. For that matter, all of the senior members of the Bush administration have more money than they can spend for the rest of their lives. It is true that weaning Iraq off the natural resources teat will improve their economy and the rest of the world's, too. As currently run, most of the economies in the region are predicated on a small number of people being fabulously rich and the rest of the populace left in poverty. While this is an extremelty gratifying state of affairs to those in power who have a 12th Century mindset instead of a 21st, this policy writ large is actually a dead weight on the economy of the world.

The United States Gross Domestic Policy is $10.4 Trillion a year. Iraq's is 58.4 billion. Our GDP growth on a bad year is 2.45% or roughly $254 billion. Insisting that the current administration was desparately interested in chasing $20 billion a year of treasure is small minded and inane. We never needed that $20 billion nearly as much as we needed the economic drag that terror sponsors cause released. Write this down in big letters so you remember, TERROR IS BAD FOR BUSINESS, AND OTHER THINGS, TOO.

Posted by: Patrick Lasswell at October 27, 2003 12:08 PM

So, Kimmitt, are the people who carried out the terrorist massacre against aid workers our enemies? What do you think should be done about them?

Does this happen every time someone disagrees with you, or is it at least confined to discussions regarding foreign policy? Because I imagine it might get a little old at the video store:

"I want to watch a romantic comedy; your action movie preference forces me to ask: do you support the actions of terrorists when they strike against the United States or innocent civilians?"

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 02:16 PM

I feel comfortable enough with saying that nothing 'good' could come from their (extremely unlikely) success, so it's not quite the same analogy.

Right, but the point is that it doesn't matter who is doing the organization; it is the outcome which matters. Mr. Totten's advocacy of the idea that a US pullout from Iraq would be disastrous is quite reasonable. His continuing attempts at guilt-by-association are not.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 02:18 PM

Kimmitt: Mr. Totten's advocacy of the idea that a US pullout from Iraq would be disastrous is quite reasonable. His continuing attempts at guilt-by-association are not.

I wrote: Let me clear up any potential misunderstanding in advance. I am referring specifically to the rally organizers at ANSWER, not to every person who shows up to protest or who opposes the war.

Please read and pay attention to my entire posts. Thanks.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 27, 2003 02:27 PM

Well, crap. I have to apologize; I attributed sentiments to you which were appropriately attributed to Mr. Pobirs and other responders to the post.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 02:28 PM

Kimmitt - What was the disagreement about? You asked a general question about what our reactions would be if the Bush administration was revealed to be entirely corrupt. I said that the war on terror/Baathism/Islamic fascism is more important than the administration or any possible scandals. Sometimes we disagree about how the war against this sort of fascism should be pursued – but we don’t disagree that it should be pursued.

Is asking for ideas a form of confrontation? Or is it my taste in movies? I like films like 'Lost in Translation'. Our video store clerk likes anime. When I ask him for a recommendation or idea, he’s usually not offended. I guess it depends on the individual.

Posted by: mary at October 27, 2003 03:16 PM

"But equality and solidarity were the rallying cries. It was an irresistible siren song for some well-meaning fools." And it was particularly attractive to fools of the intellectual variety, because most of these people live by words...and if the words were right, they weren't too concerned about actions and outcomes.

But, as you point out, today's enemy--who you rightly call "fascist"--don't even use the right words. Yet many intellectuals support them to some degree, or at least can't bring themselves to condemn them.

I believe that there has indeed been a significant degeneration among the "intellectual" classes in the last 20 years or so.

Posted by: David Foster at October 27, 2003 04:02 PM

So, Kimmitt, are the people who carried out the terrorist massacre against aid workers our enemies?

This is the question you keep asking me, in various threads at various times -- essentially, "Does your opposition to my policy preferences come due to the fact that you are a terrorist sympathizer?"

This is probably a flaw on my part, but I'm just not capable of attempting to rationally respond to that question, so all I can do is point out that you've asked it.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 04:48 PM

but I'm just not capable of attempting to rationally respond to that question

Wow. Y'know, Kimmy, it's a pretty simple question. As a demonstration, I'll answer it.

YES. They are are our enemies.

Now, was that difficult? Even you can do it.

Posted by: Evil Otto at October 27, 2003 05:46 PM

Oops, one "are," and one "are" only.

Arrrr, matey.

Posted by: Evil Otto at October 27, 2003 06:13 PM

A.N.S.W.E.R

It was a really stupid question.

Posted by: BSC at October 27, 2003 07:06 PM

Are the people who carried out the terrorist massacre against aid workers our enemies?

It was supposed to be a rhetorical question – like standing in the middle of a flooded boat and asking ‘So, do you think there’s a leak?”

People who deliberately murder Red cross workers and kids going to school are the bad guys. It’s not a policy question, it’s a no-brainer, leading into the real question which was ‘do you have any idea how to fix it?’

Posted by: mary at October 27, 2003 07:33 PM

Socialism and Fascism are the siblings who can't stand the sight of each other. They called it National Socialism for a reason. They never called it National Capitalism. Today's fascists have replaced the nationalism componet of old fascism with a new and improved trans-nationalistic anti-gobalistic schizophrenia. That must make them feel better about the whole 'ends justifies the means' thing. And everybody knows you got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, and crack a few skulls to make a uptopia. But hey, it works for them. Worked for Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Stalin, Mao, Ho, Castro, and etc., and etc. also.

Posted by: Harry at October 27, 2003 08:27 PM

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 04:29 AM

> you may wish to do some reading of your
> Mussolini

I have... he was a Marxist who believed that Italy was not yet advanced enough for revolution and required an era of nationalism to build cohesion (since there was not yet a strong Italian identity) and promote industrialization...

> wars of expansion
Nope, communists never did those...

> support of Christianity against invading
> Muslims, atheists and pagans;
1) it was Italy / Rome
2) I know a few Trotskyites who say the current Muslim radicals are more 'reactionary' than the capitalists.. Hence, better to support us against them...

> suppression of a corrupt democratic process

Yup, never heard anything like that from a communist...

Lets face it, communist / fascist... different color shirts...

Posted by: Thomas at October 27, 2003 08:44 PM

While communism as an ideology can be excused, I'm not so sure about the American Communists. When I came from the Soviet Union to the US in the late 1908s, I looked with a kind of bewilderment at the local communist party. I sort of felt sorry for them: seemingly decent people who made bad mistakes, got caught up in the ideology, etc: they were wrong, but at least they meant well. I guess my sentiment was fairly representative of other Russian Americans. I think we drew a parallel between Soviet and American communists. There was/is a very large minority of Russians, some party members and some ordinary folk, who spent their lives building communism and at the end wound up morally bankrupt. Unlike American communists, they didn't live in pluralistic society, and their ideology was unchallenged for decades. Have they been exposed to different ideas, they might have changed their worldview. Their generation also deserves some credit for defeating Nazism (along with the allies) and for that reason alone those old folks can be seen in positive light.

After 9/11 I have no illusions left about American leftist extremists. They had no problem allying themselves with the most repressive regimes imaginable. They are sad cases of arrested development, the only thing they are good for is defeating parental authority.

Posted by: veebee at October 27, 2003 08:57 PM

[Mussolini] was a Marxist who believed that Italy was not yet advanced enough for revolution and required an era of nationalism to build cohesion (since there was not yet a strong Italian identity) and promote industrialization...

Mussolini was a Marxist until he rejected Marxism for fascism. It's that simple.

Look -- Fascists simply do not share Marxist approaches. They do not view history as a series of dialectics (the fascist movement has no single view of history); they do not view the primary struggle as being between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie (they view it as a struggle between ethnic or national groups); and they do not believe in the large-scale redistribution of income as part of a workers' dictatorship -- all fascist regimes have been capitalist regimes.

Lets face it, communist / fascist... different color shirts...

This is like saying, "All governments collect taxes coercively, so therefore all governments are essentially the same."

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 09:04 PM

disagree with only one point:

fascism and communism are the same thing.
NAZI stood for natioanl socialist.
Both are trully left.
The old-time spectrum with one as the lef-extreme and the othert as the right-exteme is false.
PROOF? where do you pout anarchism in that old-time scheme?!?!?

The true spectrum has the commies and the nazis and all other extreme STATISTS on the same side -the left. and anarchists on the extreme right.

All statists are elitists; they favor statism becuase their narrow creeds cannot EVER win the popular support. So they need to inflict on the stupid masses.

so in this sense the commies the nazis the jihadis: they are birds of a feather.

Posted by: o'danny boy at October 27, 2003 09:19 PM

never was a title so appropriate. i faced the brown shirts (yellow vests, really) of the International ANSWER enforcement brigade. they were thugs this weekend in DC. they assaulted me, along with the rest of the ProtestWarrior crew. there is a story about it at

http://www.johnnypnews.com/DCProtestclash.htm

expect the video to come out soon at
www.protestwarrior.com

Posted by: Sean at October 27, 2003 09:20 PM

Paul Berman has some interesting things to say about all this.

He describes what Communism, Fascism, and Francoism (in Spain) all had in common:

The shared ideas were these: There exists a people of good who in a just world ought to enjoy a sound and healthy society. But society's health has been undermined by a hideous infestation from within, something diabolical, which is aided by external agents from elsewhere in the world. The diabolical infestation must be rooted out. Rooting it out will require bloody internal struggles, capped by gigantic massacres. It will require an all-out war against the foreign allies of the inner infestation--an apocalyptic war, perhaps even Apocalyptic with a capital A. (The Book of the Apocalypse, as André Glucksmann has pointed out, does seem to have played a remote inspirational role in generating these twentieth-century doctrines.) But when the inner infestation has at last been rooted out and the external foe has been defeated, the people of good shall enjoy a new society purged of alien elements--a healthy society no longer subject to the vibrations of change and evolution, a society with a single, blocklike structure, solid and eternal.

Each of the twentieth-century antiliberal movements expressed this idea in its own idiosyncratic way. The people of good were described as the Aryans, the proletarians, or the people of Christ. The diabolical infestation was described as the Jews, the bourgeoisie, the kulaks, or the Masons. The bloody internal battle to root out the infestation was described as the "final solution," the "final struggle," or the "Crusade." The impending new society was sometimes pictured as a return to the ancient past and sometimes as a leap into the sci-fi future. It was the Third Reich, the New Rome, communism, the Reign of Christ the King. But the blocklike characteristics of that new society were always the same. And with those ideas firmly in place, each of the antiliberal movements marched into battle.

He then explains what the Islamofascists (both secular and religious) have in common with them.

The present conflict seems to me to be following the twentieth-century pattern exactly, with one variation: the antiliberal side right now, instead of Communist, Nazi, Catholic, or Fascist, happens to be radical Arab nationalist and Islamic fundamentalist. Over the last several decades, a variety of movements have arisen in the Arab and Islamic countries--a radical nationalism (Baath socialist, Marxist, pan-Arab, and so forth) and a series of Islamist movements (meaning Islamic fundamentalism in a political version). The movements have varied hugely and have even gone to war with one another--Iran's Shiite Islamists versus Iraq's Baath socialists, like Hitler and Stalin slugging it out. The Islamists give the impression of having wandered into modern life from the 13th century, and the Baathist and Marxist nationalisms have tried to seem modern and even futuristic.

But all of those movements have followed, each in its fashion, the twentieth-century pattern. They are antiliberal insurgencies. They have identified a people of the good, who are the Arabs or Muslims. They believe that their own societies have been infested with a hideous inner corruption, which must be rooted out. They observe that the inner infestation is supported by powerful external forces. And they gird their swords. Their thinking is apocalyptic. They imagine that at the end they, too, will succeed in establishing a blocklike, unchanging society, freed of the inner corruption--a purified society: the victory of good. They are the heirs of the twentieth-century totalitarians.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 27, 2003 09:24 PM

I'm a PhD candidate in the humanities at a major research institution in the northeast. I dealt quite a bit, hand-in-hand, with ANSWER in my younger, more naive days. I'm still, I suppose, a "leftist," or progressive, or what have you. But ANSWER's recent actions have convinced me of something I've been considering for a long time... the far Left has lost its mind. It's very disappointing, and I can no longer support it generally, or ANSWER (certainly) in particular. I say this not to write off the left, but because I think it's worth saving; saving from its own reactionary mindlessness. Sorry I can't offer any tremendous political philosophical insight, but I had to get it off my chest... and it that's something I could never dare to do among my colleagues. For that reason, I am

anon

Posted by: gradstudent at October 27, 2003 10:03 PM

Facsism married to Islam, particularly fundamentalist Islam, has that Loeb and Leopold feel to it. Taken separately they can have their own peculiar odious psychological quirks and practical shortcomings. But put them together and zap; man now you have yourself a thrill killing death cult.

Posted by: Harry at October 27, 2003 10:17 PM

It will probably be misunderstood, but here's a contrast between two forms of National Socialism.

They are not the same. They are not morally equivalent, despite outward similarities.

It's not the -ism, it's the people. I don't care what -ism people are espousing, if they put opponents in shredders or in ovens, they're my enemy.

Posted by: Alan E Brain at October 27, 2003 10:22 PM

Here is what Wikipedia says about National Socialism and communism.

"Like other fascist regimes, the Nazi regime emphasized anti-communism and the leader principle (Führerprinzip), a key element of fascist ideology in which the ruler is deemed to embody the political movement and the nation. Unlike other fascist ideologies, Nazism was virulently racist."

Like Mr. Totten pointed out Communism was the enlightenment/liberalism gone bad, while facism was anti-communist and is not from Liberal ideology. link

Posted by: Drew at October 27, 2003 10:31 PM

I'm shocked that a PhD candidate in the humanities at a major research institution in the northeast is a leftist/progressive; shocked I tell you!

Hang in there Anon if the far left in America implodes, and takes much of the sane left with it, there's almost a 100% guarantee that something will rise out of the wreck to take it's place. It seems that in America the left in general and the Democratic Party in particular are going through the convulsions of change, or political dry heaves if you prefer. The Democratic Party may come out a better party on the other side, but it's definitely going to be a smaller and less influential political party until the radicalist 60's diehard generation is gone. In American history this will not be a precedent setting occurence, but for some it won't be painless either.

Posted by: Harry at October 27, 2003 10:39 PM

National Socialism by its nature has to be anti-communist but not for the same reason capitalism is anti-communist. Communism and socialism are supposedly race neutral (that whole abilities to needs thing) and national socialism is race specific. But the methods and goals of the three systems aren't historically as antithetical as some on the left would like the record to show. They all are state driven economies and Josef Stalin was about as furherprinzip as you could get. Captialism, on the other hand, resists most state controls of the economy and is driven by that freedom. It's economic form of Darwinism, it's tough, adaptable, flexible, efficient, somewhat ruthless, and hard to kill. Strictly speaking socialism and all of its morphs go against nature, and all things that go against nature, always eventually die.

The fascism in the west today isn't nationalistic or racist, it's secular transnationalistic. And fascism in the Islamic world isn't racist or nationalistic either, it's theologic. They are incompatible because the Islamofascist believe that their destiny is devinely inspired world conquest, they cannot and will not tolerate unbelievers regardless if they are anti-western fascists also, and they are willing to kill and die for their causes and beliefs. Western fascists and socialists have no where near this kind of zealous committment to their cause. I'd doubt they can even understand it, and to an Islamofascist the western facsist is nothing more than someone to convert, enslave, or kill.

Posted by: Harry at October 27, 2003 11:21 PM

Drew,

Just because fascists were 'anti-communist' does not mean they were not socialists. After all, the communists were quite heavily anti-trotskyite. You can view fascist anticommunism as simply an internal socialist struggle - which is something that was lost on those on the traditional right in the 1930s who half sympathised with the fascists for being anti-communist.

Posted by: James Griffith at October 27, 2003 11:24 PM

Mao put it best:

"We shall support whatever the enemy opposes and oppose whatever the enemy supports."

And considering the Maoist/Marxist/Stalinist [take your pick] bent of the WWP and ANSWER [I am sure thay all have his little red book on thier coffee tables] the quote is quite appropriate.

Posted by: Mike at October 27, 2003 11:25 PM

In the early part of the 20th century, Marxism reached an impasse. It became increasingly clear to most Marxists that the "proletariat" was not about to spontaneously overthrow their alleged exploiters. Many noticed that most of Marx's predictions, such as the notion that the wages and conditions of the industrial working class would grow worse over time, were proving to be false, as the plight of workers actually improved, and workers proved immune to exhortations to rise up against their oppressors.

Mussolini was one of the leading Marxists of this period, participating extensively in the internecine disputes. Along with others, he came to realize that waiting around for a complete revolutionary change was futile. He suggested that instead they should be more practical and push for incremental change within the system. (This is the eternal debate among communists -- whether to work within or outside the "system"). He also saw that workers tended to be intensely nationalistic, especially in the wake of WWI, where many had served in the military.

He proposed that they harness this nationalism as a means to appeal to workers, and use it to promote socialism within individual countries. Marxist purists refuse to go along, as they believed in the international struggle for socialism, which should abandon notions of nationalism. (In reality, virtually every communist nation, such as Russia and China, has harnessed the power of nationalism, while paying lip service to "internationalism.")

Mussolini is credited with creating this new version of socialism called "fascism" in 1919. Most of the leadership were former Marxists, disillusioned with the practical failures of Marxism. Yet they remained committed members of the Left. Some of his early supporters and admirers included Sigmund Freud, George Bernard Shaw, Ezra Pound, and Stalin, who shared with Mussolini the plans for Moscow's May Day parades, to help him in his own mystique-building exercises.

Yes, they grew into rivals with their communist counterparts, who naturally accused them of being bourgeois and capitalist (as every single splinter Marxist group declares about its erstwhile comrades). Remember, the bitterest fights are those between members of the same family. Hitler denounced communists, and yet he signed the non-aggression pact with Stalin.

Are there differences between the two? Certainly. But just read the programmes of the Fascists in 1930s Italy and Germany, and see if there aren't more similarities with communism that with laissez-faire capitalism.

Incidentally, the Wikipedia is not exactly reliable on these issues. Many of its entries are written by ideologically driven authors. Communists have engaged in a decades-long P.R. campaign to distance themselves as much as possible from fascism, and to associate fascism with capitalism. Naturally, with a largely compliant media and academy, they have succeeded in hoodwinking most of the public. Look at the facts before you accept their dogma as the truth.

Posted by: Alistair at October 28, 2003 01:58 AM

Kimmitt,

Fascists simply do not share Marxist approaches.

They share the same means. Both fascists and Marxists distrust the free market to shape society. They both use the coercive power of the state to plan and direct the society towards desired ends. Whether or not those ends are the same is irrelevent. Once you grant an excess of coercive power to the state, that power will be used towards some designed end. Transitioning a marxist state to a fascist state is as trivial as changing a suit.

Due to the fundamental conflict between Marxism and human nature, the ends of socialism are unachievable. Therefore, it is inevitable that the coercive power of the state built by the Marxists will be co-opted and directed towards some other ends such as fascism.

The problem with socialists, Kimmitt, is that you guys refuse to accept the fact that socialism always fails. Marxism doesn't lead to fascism by the design of the socialists. It leads to fascism by the unalterable dimensions in human nature. Humans are not a blank slate:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670031518/102-6657113-7875351?v=glance

It doesn't matter what your intents are. Socialists seem to believe that the intents justify the means and the ends. Given the overwhelming historical evidence that socialism is doomed to failure with 100% certainty, socialists can no longer hide behind the claim that their intents are just and that they are therefore noble.

In order to be a socialist today, you have to be either delusional or evil. There are no other options.

Posted by: HA at October 28, 2003 03:41 AM

Regarding Kimmitt's "thought experiment", an observation or two:
1. If, indeed, it were proven that the real motivation behind going to war was enrich the Bush folks and the generals with proceeds derived from Iraqi oil, then Mr. Bush would have to be as dumb as the Left try to make him out to be. Would it not be much easier to defeat Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to accomplish the same end. Why would one intentionally take on a seemingly huge and well armed Army when the neighboring countries are so ill-equipped to self defend. Also, does that presume that it would be easier to defeat Iraq to gain oil then the Democrats to gain access to ANWAR?
2. Anyone who thinks that an American administration would take such a huge risk simply to enrich themselves doesn't understand capitalism.

Posted by: Kevin at October 28, 2003 04:44 AM

Let's cut the bullshit:

Fascists, Islamists, National Socialists, Maoists, Royalists, Trots and Kimmit's heroes the Communists are all ANTI-LIBERAL.

None are liberal. FUCKING NONE.

Some socialists are liberal (though not all, see above). Liberals are even sometimes liberal. Libertarians are classically liberal. As are most American conservatives.

Posted by: Tru-Liberal at October 28, 2003 06:16 AM

Okay, let's all take a deep breath here and stop making things up.

I am not a socialist. I am not a Communist. At no point have I espoused the validity of socialist or communist economic or political policy recommendations or analyses.

Have a pleasant day, and please remember that the last three letters of my surname are "itt."

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 28, 2003 06:45 AM

HA, you are a complete fuckwit without the sense God gave a gnat's genitals.

Sorry, almost forgot. Carry on.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 28, 2003 06:47 AM

Here is an excellent article on the genesis of Fascism as a revision of Marxism:

The Mystery of Fascism

by David Ramsey Steele

http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm

It is based on the work of the socialist historian Zeev Sternhell.

Posted by: Ernest Brown at October 28, 2003 06:57 AM

The more I learn about the leftist movement(be it Marxist, communist, socialist, whatever) in America, the more dumbfounded I become. Their blindness to history is remarkable. Even more remarkable is their blindness to the horrors their idealogy brings to the world TODAY.

I read the WWP article linked above extolling the virtues of North Korea. It is absolutely unbelievable. Maybe they should read about the holocaust occurring there (they don't need to; they know, yet chose to ignore it). Maybe they should go utilize the "free" health care system in North Korea. Maybe they'd want to live 69 years adoring the beloved leader, singing his praises (or at least you'd better be if you want to survive). I could go on.

Then I read about people like Walter Duranty who won the Pulitzer Prize for journalism with the NY Times for his "reporting" on Stalin's Russia (knowingly failed to report about the millions killed by the Stalin induced famine). And I say to myself, that couldn't happen today.

Yet it is happening today. We have the left supporting and defending and visiting and lauding the likes of Castro and Kim Joung Il. Or you have the left supporting the Islamofascists. You have reporters fooled or wowed (intentionally) by these evil dictators, leftists all. You have people who knowingly refuse to do anything about it. The South Koreans refuse to even put human rights abuses on the table because they don't want to offend. It's as if no one remembers. It's as if no one connects the dots (as if it's hard).

It's time to call a spade a spade. Leftist ideology has been and continues to be a hideous failure, responsible for the death of tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people, and untold misery in the lives of billions of others. Can't put a shine on sh**.

Posted by: only_truth at October 28, 2003 07:40 AM

I need you to point to a single leftist politician who supports the North Korean regime, Castro's Cuba, or Islamic terrorism.

No, not one who disagrees with you as to how best to handle them -- one who actually supports them.

You can't. Because that kind of idiocy is confined exclusively to the powerless fringes. So, tell you what -- ignore them, and we'll ignore Pat Buchanan telling us that the US deserved 9/11 due to its failure to be a sufficiently Christian nation.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 28, 2003 08:12 AM

Where does this "unconditional support" phrase show up in the ANSWER article that you cite? I read through the 2 page PDF, and did not see it, though perhaps I misread.

Posted by: Justin Blank at October 28, 2003 08:38 AM
I need you to point to a single leftist politician who supports the North Korean regime, Castro's Cuba, or Islamic terrorism.

Uh ANSWER (Totten's whole point in his posting)? The americal left who are just gaga over Castro mystique? Gallway (sp?) of the UK and the cadre of Eurocrats who are gaga over Arafat and the PLO/PA? Do I need to continue?

Posted by: Bill at October 28, 2003 08:38 AM

Where does this "unconditional support" phrase show up in the ANSWER article that you cite?

It is the last sentence in the article. It's a pdf file for a pamphlet and so the format is a bit weird. So the "last" page is actually the page adjacent to the first page.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 28, 2003 09:28 AM

I find this quote by a great California author fairly illuminating:

I believe that there is but one story in the world, and only one…. Humans are caught – in their lives, in their thoughts, in their hungers and ambitions, in their avarice and cruelty, and in their kindness and generosity too – in a net of good and evil…and it occurs to me that evil must constantly respawn, while good, while virtue, is immortal.” John Steinbeck

Religious extremists, terrorists and hellish Marxist-spawned nightmares are today’s faces of evil. Leftist groups like ANSWER encourage the worldview that the U.S. itself is more evil than the situations which bring about its increased presence, even while making allegations about America’s aloofness.

Posted by: d-rod at October 28, 2003 09:29 AM

Pat Buchanan? I believe the poster had Pat Robertson in mind as to 9/11 and God's wrath.

Posted by: Southerner at October 28, 2003 09:48 AM

" Because that kind of idiocy is confined exclusively to the powerless fringes. So, tell you what -- ignore them, and we'll ignore Pat Buchanan telling us that the US deserved 9/11 due to its failure to be a sufficiently Christian nation."

Excepte Pat isn't organizing 10,000 Brownshirts to march around with signs and banners as ANSWER is.

They are powerless because people like Michael are not ignoring them and speaking out. So props to him.

Posted by: Tru-Liberal at October 28, 2003 10:11 AM

There is no longer any excuse for people who attend or speak (Al Sharpton) at these marches - there has been plenty of publicity about ANSWER and its agenda. If someone attends one of these rallies they are facists, just like the organizers.

Motives matter and ANSWER'S motives are dirty. And the filth rubs off on any of the idiots that hobnob with them at these rallies.

Posted by: rick at October 28, 2003 10:41 AM

I am struck by there being no comments on the particular flag ANSWER is marching under (whatever the real flags--fascist, socialist, islamist, etc.--comments would have them truly identifying with), namely "anti-colonial."

Post-colonial studies is one of the current branches of left-identified English literary studies in colleges and universities. It is gospel that this particular vantage-point for slamming western, male, and white culture--begins with Edward Said's "Orientalism," but the need for inventing scapegoat narratives with the above as targets precedes Said's particular scenario. The notion that "colonialism" is "what the male-dominated white west 'does'" develops from Frantz Fanon's "The Wretched of the Earth," published in English with a preface by that hearty left-winger J.-P. Sartre and similar screeds expanding 19h-century colonialism into a trans-historical archetype of the central model, which is a world that conforms wholly to a domination/subordination model. The main point is to invent a narrative into which you inject the particular paradigmatic good-evil, victim-oppressor, female-male, black-white model of your choice, and go one from there to slander, scapegoating, and in some instances murderous assault.

It's all been done before, and it is no accident that university campuses with their anti-male hate propaganda machines called "Women's Studies" and "post-colonial literature" courses (not to mention the small host of ultimately marxist-inspired narratives of the same sort coming out of philosophy, political science, sociology, and history departments) have become places of toxicity unparalleled by any other type of institution in the U.S.

The fact that the U. S. occupation of Iraq bears either in its over-all configuration nor in its implemention any similarity to what the British did in its colonies (or the French, or the Belgians--read Conrad's "Heart of Darkness"--or the Germans, or the Dutch), is all beside the point. People like ANSWER live and (sometimes) die by the verbal rhetoric they jazz themselves (and hopefully others) up with.

Calling the U.S. "colonial" is nothing more (and nothing less) that calling it "maliciously and deliberately evil." They could just as easily have used "racist," or "western," or "masculinzed," or "capitalist": these people need evil scapegoats to do something for themselves that they profoundly need. For all scapegoating is a form of shedding something about the self that one cannot stand, and projecting it onto another person, or group, or nation, or whatever, justifying the attacking of the scapegoat, thereby leaving the scapegoater "clean."

I'm sure that the anti-U.S. rallies left the Answer people feeling really very "clean.'

Posted by: olustee at October 28, 2003 11:41 AM

"I need you to point to a single leftist politician who supports the North Korean regime, Castro's Cuba, or Islamic terrorism."

Ramsey Clark comes immediately to my mind. Hell this man was attorney-general of the United States. Cynthia McKinney and Maxine Waters bear some scrutiny too.

Posted by: Harry at October 28, 2003 11:50 AM

Alistair is spot-on with his outline of Fascism's development posted above. The best one-sentence description of Fascism is: A pragmatic form of Marxism which fuses expansionistic nationalism and socialism for the purpose of rapid national development. The Fascist/Communist split is in many ways a later incarnation of the Menshevik/Bolshevik split.

Some good reading on this:

Joshua Muravchik, Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism

A. James Gregor, The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the Twentieth Century

George Watson, The Lost Literature of Socialism

Alistair writes:

Incidentally, the Wikipedia is not exactly reliable on these issues. Many of its entries are written by ideologically driven authors.

Absolutely. Any topic that's at all controversial or politically loaded is not handled in a balanced way there.

Communists have engaged in a decades-long P.R. campaign to distance themselves as much as possible from fascism, and to associate fascism with capitalism. Naturally, with a largely compliant media and academy, they have succeeded in hoodwinking most of the public.

The book by Gregor discusses how Marxist theorists were dumbfounded by the advent of Fascism and struggled to fit it into their ideological framework. The best they could manage was to accuse it of being a reactionary movement orchestrated by capital in an attempt to stave off the imminent workers' revolution. This is, of course, the interpretation that many today accept, Marxist or not -- but it's dead wrong, and as Gregor shows, later Soviet Marxist theorists had to admit as much.

Posted by: Varenius at October 28, 2003 12:11 PM

"New Skinheads" is totally appropriate... while having an elitist attitude (and hate of Jews) in common they are much more intellectually cunning than you're typical dumb, brute, physically inclined skinhead. All you have to do is look at the raging undercurrent of anti-semitism that rears it's ugly head at anti-war protests, on the campuses around the country, in left wing indy media etc. etc.

These so called "progressives" are always bashing the status quo while zealously romanticizing the next socialist revolution UNTIL it fails miserably in it's often repeated totalitarian implosion of death and destruction. These "progressives" then conveniently sidestep away denying any association and/or trying to blame western democracy for the said implosion.

It's a laughable charade of deception that repeats itself with a disturbing frequency. They set themselves morally well above the communist "poseurs in sheeps clothing" so to say...

They only claim that their "true goal" is merely socialist equality in economic terms. However they realize their "ideas" cannot be fully implemented without blunt force (i.e. rallying the proletariat to their cause to do the "dirty work" then blindsiding them once in power) OR more subtly through the educational and legal systems which they are currently at work in now in this country and many others.

Let's not forget that the Nazis could not have come to power without the aid of the largest party in the Reichstag which was the Social Democrats (progressives in their day). The voting records show they often voted with the Nazis. When approached by the German communists to oppose Hitler... they sided with the Nazis... it's obvious who they felt more affinity for.

Now a few of them did defy the Nazis and paid for it with their lives but most went goosestepping along (temporarily anyway) only to dissappear in the ranks and resurface later most likely in E. Germany or some other eastern bloc country.

The charade continues... and to their embarrassment again with the situation in Venezuela. The Venezuelans cry out and yet it is these elitist progressives OUTSIDE the country in Europe and elsewhere that tell them to shut up and accept their "elected" dictator and the fate that follows (usually death at the hands of these murderers).

Ironically these progressives march under the banner of peace and human rights while standing on the sidelines in dissent any western democratic establishment intervention. In doing so they permit this likeable revolution (supporting any and all dissent of course) to reach a bloody climax but after it's downfall agree that "yes it is a good thing those baddies are gone now".

And so goes the sick charade of deception these treacherous "progressives" play... with so much embarrassment piled up over time it should be no wonder (as another poster noted) that they are constantly redefining history wherever they can (books, schools, colleges etc... and obviously in their own bloated minds) in an attempt to erase the associations of old and disguise who they truly are and what they are about.

Posted by: WideAwake at October 28, 2003 12:31 PM

(Mussolini was a Marxist until he rejected Marxism for fascism. It's that simple.)

No, Mussolini was a Marxist who rejected communism for fascism. He embraced a different interpretation of Marxism. That's the distinction.

(Look -- Fascists simply do not share Marxist approaches. They do not view history as a series of dialectics (the fascist movement has no single view of history); they do not view the primary struggle as being between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie (they view it as a struggle between ethnic or national groups); and they do not believe in the large-scale redistribution of income as part of a workers' dictatorship -- all fascist regimes have been capitalist regimes.)

Fascism was Marxism for the middle classes. It's petit bourgeoisie adherents hated the upper class holders of capital as much as the proletariat did. The fact that many in this class were Jewish was just icing on the cake.

It's simply an oxymoron to say fascist regimes are capitalist regimes. Fascism was (is) deeply anti-capitalist. I don't know what your understanding of capitalism is, but breaking up sectors of the economy into corporate structures under the control of a government ministry is not capitalism. When are people going to understand that the role of government in a true capitalist society is limited to enforcing contracts and maintaining stability?

Fascism and communism were (are) both anti-democratic and anti-capitalist variants of Marxism.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 28, 2003 12:56 PM

Maybe she was confused that followers of the Religion of Peace would blow the Red Cross up. Maybe instead of tightening security at the Red Cross, they should relax it. Tightening their security would only send the wrong message that they do not trust the followers of the Religion of Peace. The Red Cross must show the Iraqis that they are only trying to help and the best way to accomplish that would be to remove all security at all Red Cross compounds throughout Iraq... better yet throughout the entire Muslim lands.

Posted by: JJ Walker at October 28, 2003 01:12 PM

Ok, I'm a pretty hardcore leftist. And I've even used ANSWERs buses to get to a rally, twice. They were cheap. And yes, I know ANSWER is filled with evil bloodyminded idiots. But most people on those buses disagree with them.

The impression I'm getting from the rally this weekend was that while a bunch of the organizers were screeching "US OUT OF IRAQ" the VAST majority of people there were more concerned with getting the UN in, with internationalizing the forces there.

When ANSWER is the only "antiwar" game in town, and you honestly think that this is "the wrong war at the wrong time," you really don't have much of a choice. You can either sit home and write letters to your congressmen, or you can go to the rallies and talk to people about how nasty ANSWER is.

And although I haven't gone to one of these suckers in months (getting out of college and getting a job tends to suck your time up), every time I went and talked to people, they were fairly uniformally against what the WWP stood for.

ANSWER has a small group of very dedicated, discipline people. They tend to hijack other anti-war groups. They have the hard core organizers who book buses months in advance. They do not have a wide following.

This is really disjointed, but my point is basically that ANSWER is really not that big of problem, since they are mostly ignored at their own rallies.

Posted by: Dan at October 28, 2003 01:46 PM

Dan: When ANSWER is the only "antiwar" game in town, and you honestly think that this is "the wrong war at the wrong time," you really don't have much of a choice. You can either sit home and write letters to your congressmen, or you can go to the rallies and talk to people about how nasty ANSWER is.

I'm glad to hear you don't agree with ANSWER. I figure this is probably true of most of the protesters.

If I were anti-war I would not attend their rallies for the same reason I would not attend an anti-affirmative-action rally sponsored by the Ku Klux Klan.

That said, I do sympathize with your dilemma. I'll defend your right to protest, and I'll stick up for you if anyone here calls you a Stalinist or a fascist. But I'll also ask you to help me isolate ANSWER. Give me a hand here, please. Do it for America, for Iraq, and for the health of the left.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 28, 2003 01:54 PM

Even our parents knew about this. Remember when they were worried about the "friends" we had. One is identified by the group one is with. If you attend an ANSWER rally, one must assume that the attendee is a fan. If you don't agree with the ANSWER philosophy, and be vocal, I bet you would last more than 5 minutes before you are rousted. I was. But then I was carrying a PROTESTWARRIOR sign. And don't believe any news you hear about "10-20,000" people at the rally. It was closer to 6000. All this talk about the difference between fascism and communism is moot. They both want your liberty. There is no need to debate a terrorist. Just shoot him in the head.

Posted by: Mark Walker at October 28, 2003 02:42 PM

Wrong war at the wrong time? Does that mean if Hilary was waging it, it'd be the right war at the right time?

Posted by: JJ Walker at October 28, 2003 03:07 PM

Mercantilism isn't socialism. Fascism was mercantilist at its core, not socialist.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 28, 2003 03:08 PM

I am an anti-war & anti-globalization activist and a member of an activist group that organizes around anarchist (ie., libertarian socialist) principles. I have attended all the major anti-war & anti-globalization rallies in NYC and Washington, DC, since the threat of war began looming overhead. I have attended organizing meetings, staged direct actions, and have been arrested and assaulted by police while protesting. I only say this to demonstrate my level of commitment to the movement.

I can tell you, firmly, that I, and 8 of 10 members of my affinity group (of hardcore, vocal, well-known NYC activists), are completely opposed to ANSWER and refuse to have any part in their rallies.

When it was first discovered that ANSWER was tied to the WWP, and likewise the WWP's ties to dictatorial communist governments, we began to completely disavow any relationships with ANSWER and pressured our fellow activists not to support them. Within days of this information becoming public knowledge (within the activist community) a new coalition was formed--United for Peace & Justice--which became the leading anti-war organizing group. ANSWER quickly became #2 on the scene.

ANSWER has stolen the movement's thunder simply for their controversial stance, and have thus co-opted our concern for very prevalent issues to support their own agenda. But more often than not, the people attending ANSWER's rallies have no idea of the groups ties to the WWP, nor the fact that ANSWER claims that its rallies attendees support their agenda. The problem is that, in fear of fractionalizing the anti-war movement, more Leftists have not come out to publically denounce ANSWER. This is not because they agree with ANSWER's stated beliefs, but because they would rather spend their time demonstrating and being active than fighting amongst themselves.

Further, the only news sources which make abundantly clear these connections between ANSWER and the WWP are conservative publications, which go on to liken anti-war demonstrators to terrorists & terror-enablers. If such fair criticisms of ANSWER could be waged without the need to resort to namecalling, nor the diminishing of the concerns raised by activists, then I'm sure they'd be much more open to hearing the concerns of those opposed to the WWP.

The fact that many of the modern day Marxists & Leninists you refer to are nothing more than teenagers who, in their ignorance, romanticize Communist revolution, surely does not help things. But these people are certainly not the majority, nor the core activists within the movement. They are just kids who are looking to make sense of a senseless world and believe they've found it in the populist rhetoric of a Communist past. I don't blame them, and I don't hate them for it. I do, however, confront them, and try to make clear to them the destination that road leads to.

Therefore, ANSWER does not represent the anti-war movement, any more than Pat Buchanan or Jerry Falwell represent conservatives. They may have stepped up to the plate and put together some big rallies, but they are by no means the voice of the movement. They are the minority of left-wing extremists who found themselves in a position to parlay their way to the top of the game, but they most certainly are not heralded there by anyone in the know. They are opportunists who hijacked our movement, and trust me, there are those of us out here who are indeed fighting to get it back.

Posted by: mobius1 at October 28, 2003 03:52 PM

"Libertarian socialist"?

Snork... pheh.... BWAHAHA HAHAH AHAHHAHAH.... ohgodstopyerkillingme

Posted by: iowahawk at October 28, 2003 05:36 PM

mobius 1 – I think I saw you on LGF. Did you post this?

“It's just too fishy to be ignored. I don't want to theorize conspiracies but Occam's Razor says that they wanted the attacks to happen. And considering the PNAC report "Defending America's Future," and its stated need for a "new Pearl Harbor" to advance the invasion of Iraq, Bush's ties to Bin Laden, and all the other suspect behavior that went down prior to and after the attacks, it's obvious to me that it was a covert op created to further advance America's defense contracting industry.”

“How to end terrorism? End the reign of defense contractors and covert ops."

So somebody wants to speak out for the rational side of the ‘anti-war’ movement. I guess the rational group prefers conspiracy theories to the old, boring Marxism of ANSWER. If that was you, I guess you know all about Carlyle group, the black helicopters, the pipeline through Afghanistan, Roswell and the AFLAQ duck.

When it comes to the 'anti war' movement, rational is relative.

Posted by: mary at October 28, 2003 06:17 PM

whatever it is that i may believe on a personal level as to the actions of the intelligence operations in the u.s. and their impact on world affairs is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

don't change the subject by attacking my personal motives for political action. they are my views alone. i do not claim to speak on anyone's behalf other than my own when i reflect on such 'conspiracy theories'.

however, its apparent that by attacking me, you aim to divert attention away from the very valid points i raise about ANSWER and the people who you claim pledge their undying support thereof.

it's obvious you have no valuable response to my contentions.

on a more personal note--i say i'd rather be a conspiracy theorist and be wrong in the long run, than blindly rationalize and support the grave misdoings of evil men, as you accuse me and my fellow activist of.

Posted by: mobius1 at October 28, 2003 08:39 PM

Mercantilism isn't socialism. Fascism was mercantilist at its core, not socialist.

You're still wrong, Kimmitt. Any "mercantilism" in Fascism was a temporary means to an ultimately socialist end, similar to the approach of Menshevism. How many different ways will we have to say this before you at least consider the possibility?

Posted by: Varenius at October 28, 2003 10:42 PM

Don't confuse the anti-war movement now (really, the U.S. withdrawal movement) with the anti-war movement before the war. It's a tiny fraction of it's former self, and it's the worst fraction.

Also realize that it's not a single entity, and you can't fairly blame the "anti-war movement" as a general, nebulous force for the sins of its worst members. The other protest groups should have beat ANSWER to the punch in organizing and refused to co-sponsor ANSWER rallies. The individual person who opposed the war can denounce ANSWER till they're blue in the face but it doesn't seem to make any difference to anyone. She can (And should) also vote with her feet and not go to their rallies--but she cannot prevent them from holding them, prevent thousands of people she has never met from showing up, or prevent the media from covering them.

It's a general dilemma--how to prevent idiots and worse from discrediting a legitimate cause. I saw recently that the British Labor party expelled a bad MP, but I don't think the U.S. national parties have a comparable power or I assume David Duke wouldn't have been the Republican nominee for governor of Louisiana however many years ago. And of course fringe opponents of abortion have actually committed violent, even deadly, attacks, which I don't think even the craziest anti-Iraq protestors have ever done.

If I remember my European history correctly, it was the traditional right of center parties that became a part of Hitler's original coalition rather than allying with the socialists or social Democrats.

Posted by: Katherine at October 28, 2003 11:22 PM

mobius1,

I don't share your conspiracy theories, but I am glad to hear you are vocally against ANSWER. Thanks for that.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 12:23 AM

Katherine: It's a general dilemma--how to prevent idiots and worse from discrediting a legitimate cause.

I sympathize.

Think about it this way.

We all can imagine what would happen if the Ku Klux Klan organized anti-affirmative-action rallies and thousands of conservatives showed up to march with them. But that wouldn't happen. It's only a hypothetical, and I don't need to elaborate.

What does happen when the Klan organizes rallies is that they are met with massive numbers of counter demonstrators who villify the Klan as the fascist scumbags they are.

So that's what I suggest you do. Counter-protest ANSWER. Call them fascist scumbags to their faces. Because that's what they are. That's what the mainstream anti-war left can do to solve its dilemma and earn some real respect from the rest of us.

Anyone on the anti-war left who does this will get a lot of credit from me. I'm a disaffected liberal myself. If you take my advice, you'll remind me and others like me that we still share some of the same values.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 12:33 AM

"But more often than not, the people attending ANSWER's rallies have no idea of the groups ties to the WWP"

Gee, Mom, I didn't know it was THAT kind of a party.

Posted by: Rich at October 29, 2003 02:39 AM

Kimmitt,

HA, you are a complete fuckwit without the sense God gave a gnat's genitals.

Your insults are as well reasoned as your politics. Both can only be described as reactionary.

Posted by: HA at October 29, 2003 03:12 AM

Dan,

When ANSWER is the only "antiwar" game in town, and you honestly think that this is "the wrong war at the wrong time," you really don't have much of a choice.

You have plenty of choice. You can organize your own rallies and explictly and loudly exclude ANSWER. The only problem is that nobody will show up. I don't believe for a minute that most of the people at these so-called "peace" protests disagree with the ANSWER brownshirts. The reason nobody organizes alternative protests is that ANSWER's message is central to the anti-war constituency. The truth hurts.

Here is a good example of the "peace" protesters in action. I wonder how many of those attending the rally would have intervened against this gross violation of civil rights by ANSWER "security"?

http://www.johnnypnews.com/DCProtestclash.htm

Posted by: HA at October 29, 2003 03:21 AM

mobius,

don't change the subject by attacking my personal motives for political action.

It is completely valid to question your motives. One can have good motives and be wrong. That is forgivable. One can have evil motives and be wrong. That is unforgivable.

Posted by: HA at October 29, 2003 03:26 AM

Katherine,

It's a general dilemma--how to prevent idiots and worse from discrediting a legitimate cause.

The reason the cause almost exclusively attracts idiots is because the cause itself is illegitimate. If your cause is primarily attracting idiots, maybe you should reconsider your cause.

Posted by: HA at October 29, 2003 03:30 AM

HA, all due respect (none whatsoever), but you're making an argument for Michael Totten to flee from your ranks.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 29, 2003 04:33 AM

I'm a confirmed lefty, and I think that while the Iraq war was a reckless, divisive and naive undertaking, the removal of Saddam Hussein is one of the few positive outcomes. I also join the right-wingers here in condeming the far-left fringe organisations which defend the likes of Kim Jong-Il and other murderous, torturing dictators.

In the light of that, I'd be interested to hear what the right-wingers on this forum think of the Bush administrations currrent support for the murderous, torturing dictator of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov. Karimov's secret police regularly use torture and rape of women, men and children. There have been confirmed instances of his security forces of boiling political prisoners to death.

The Bush administration has just given 500 million dollars of aid to this regime. I for one would find it much easier to accept President Bush's use of Saddam's removal as moral justification for this war if he was not simultaneously supporting a regime that is doing exactly the same things that Saddam Hussein did.

In fact, the parallels are even deeper: the US is supporting Islam Karimov becuase he has provided a staging point for the US attacks on Afghanistan and aised the US in that war. Similar "common enemy" justification was used for supporting Osama Bin Laden and the mujahedin against the Soviet Union, and supporting Saddam Hussein against Iran. Don't these guys ever learn? Can't they see that if you get into bed with people like this it bites you in the ass a decade or two down the line?

So, I guess my question is: since it's morally repugnant for the far left to speak in support of the likes of Kim Jong-Il, is it not far more morally repugnant of the Bush administration to actively fund the likes of Islam Karimov?

Posted by: Jonah at October 29, 2003 04:52 AM

I can name a political lefty who supports Castro.

Jimmy Carter, who recently went to see the dictator and had wonderful things to say about him. Even though at the same time that old dog Castro was locking up dissidents.

Posted by: James Stephenson at October 29, 2003 05:27 AM

Further to my previous comments, here are some links to information about Islam Karimov and his regime, in case you are noty already familiar with them:

http://www.csce.gov/press_csce.cfm?press_id=305

http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/us-and-uz.htm

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=1086

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/08/uzbek081203-ltr.htm

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/03/karimovprof.htm

Posted by: Jonah at October 29, 2003 05:35 AM

You have plenty of choice. You can organize your own rallies and explictly and loudly exclude ANSWER. The only problem is that nobody will show up. I don't believe for a minute that most of the people at these so-called "peace" protests disagree with the ANSWER brownshirts. The reason nobody organizes alternative protests is that ANSWER's message is central to the anti-war constituency. The truth hurts.

"i demand you waste your energy fighting each other, rather than uniting for a commmon cause--otherwise i will denounce you as nazis!"

and you call ANSWER fascists?!

Posted by: mobius1 at October 29, 2003 05:49 AM

In the light of that, I'd be interested to hear what the right-wingers on this forum think of the Bush administrations currrent support for the murderous, torturing dictator of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov.

That I wished I lived in a world where we didn't have to make necessary distinctions between mad bastard dictators with a documented history of external aggression and mad bastard dictators without one. Until we do, we need to pick our fights, and we shouldn't subscribe to the 'if we can't do everything, we shouldn't do anything fallacy' (see Saudia Arabia, Current Complaints About and Pakistan, Current Complaints About for further examples).

Do I like it? No. Am I planning to bring it up, just as soon as we have the luxury of worrying about tertiary targets? Yes. Am I sorry about classifying Uzbekistan as a tertiary target, with all that implies? Of course I am. Did I start this damned war in the first place? Judging everything, examining our own mistakes (which were considerable)... on the balance, no.

And as for this:

So, I guess my question is: since it's morally repugnant for the far left to speak in support of the likes of Kim Jong-Il, is it not far more morally repugnant of the Bush administration to actively fund the likes of Islam Karimov?

It's a fair question to ask, but the answer's no, for a very simple reason: the folks on the far Left - more accurately, ANSWER, which is far, far Left; I am explicitly not including the 'regular' far Left, here - are voluntarily supporting regimes like North Korea and calling for the unconditional support of the Iraqi insurgents. The US government in operating not out of choice, but necessity*. I hate that immensely, but I hate the alternative more.

Moe

*I am aware that this position assumes several assumptions that I have made, but that others have not. Those who have not remain, of course, free to disagree with me on this matter... but please do remember that while you (generic) may disagree with me, you (generic) may not say that I have not grappled with this problem as well as I might. We are not dupes; fools, perhaps (that remains to be seen), but not dupes.

I regret that I find it necessary to have to make such a comment, and it should not be construed as being either an implicit nor explicit criticism of Jonah's question (which, to reiterate, was a fair one to ask).

Posted by: Moe Lane at October 29, 2003 06:01 AM

The reason nobody organizes alternative protests is that ANSWER's message is central to the anti-war constituency. The truth hurts.

Are you saying that ANSWER's message, i.e. that "The anti-war movement here and abroad must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance." is central to the entire anti-war constituency? If so, then you are quite wrong. I for one am deeply saddened and shocked by the continuing attacks and instability in Iraq, whether the targets are Iraqi civilians, US or UK forces or innocent humanitarian workers. If you doubt that I am representative, take a look at these extracts from this Guardian article:

But not all of Iraq's resistance will fit this romantic, maquis image. Some will be Ba'athist holdouts, Saddamites who once served as henchmen to a murderous dictator. No progressive should want to see these villains land a blow on British or American forces. Others, their numbers not yet established, will be Islamists, some from abroad, who are graduates of the al-Qaida school of morality. People who can murder UN or Red Cross workers do not deserve to be viewed as warriors in a heroic anti- imperialist struggle. No progressive should derive any satisfaction from their operations, even if their ultimate target is an occupation we opposed from the start.

Instead we have to look at the likely consequences of this resistance. Strikes such as Monday's against the Red Cross will only deter other non-governmental agencies from coming to Iraq, and the only people to suffer from that will be Iraqis - denied the medical care or food aid they so badly need. It's possible that success for the guerrillas will bring the end of the occupation and a moment of national liberation - but it could just as easily bring violent chaos, civil war, a return to Saddam-style dictatorship or a fundamentalist theocracy. Surely none of these is an outcome peace campaigners would wish on the Iraqis.

If you're going to start saying that "the truth hurts", then please at least start by ascertaining what the truth actually is rather than relying on your own pre-judgements about the motives of the anti-war constituency.

Posted by: Jonah at October 29, 2003 06:06 AM

(In the light of that, I'd be interested to hear what the right-wingers on this forum think of the Bush administrations currrent support for the murderous, torturing dictator of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov. Karimov's secret police regularly use torture and rape of women, men and children. There have been confirmed instances of his security forces of boiling political prisoners to death.

The Bush administration has just given 500 million dollars of aid to this regime. I for one would find it much easier to accept President Bush's use of Saddam's removal as moral justification for this war if he was not simultaneously supporting a regime that is doing exactly the same things that Saddam Hussein did.)

I supported the removal of Hussein for the following three reasons, in order of importance:

1. To remove the possibility of a dictator who was intent on developing weapons of mass destruction from supplying those weapons to Islamic terrorists who have shown they are willing to kill as many of our civilians as possible.

2. To increase respect for American power in the Middle East. That is, to counter the loss of face we earned when Reagan pulled out of Lebanon and Clinton pulled out of Somalia. In other words, to tell various totalitarian governments in the region that if they support terrorists, we won't make a distinction between their regimes and the terrorists. That was plank one of the Bush Doctrine, laid out on the evening of September 11, 2001.

3. To free the Iraqi people from the murderous rule of Hussein and try to plant a more representative government there, if not democracy.

The first point concerns immediate protection; the second, hopes to produce a mid-range effect; the third, is a more idealistic long-range plan for the entire Middle East.

The chief goal of American foreign policy is protection of American lives and interests. In order to do so, we should support dictators if they are our dictators. When they turn against us, we should crush them. Anyone who tells you differently is kidding himself.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 29, 2003 06:08 AM

Thank you, Moe, for your considered and measured response. There are a couple of points I would like to pick up on.

That I wished I lived in a world where we didn't have to make necessary distinctions between mad bastard dictators with a documented history of external aggression and mad bastard dictators without one. Until we do, we need to pick our fights, and we shouldn't subscribe to the 'if we can't do everything, we shouldn't do anything fallacy' (see Saudia Arabia, Current Complaints About and Pakistan, Current Complaints About for further examples).

Understood. I agree with you that the US and UK cannot do everything and should not engage in any further forcible regime changes at least until the ration of countries warred upon to countries rebuilt gets a bit closer to 1. However, in the meantime, surely it's not unreasonable to suggest that we stop giving these mad bastard dictators financial support? My point wasn't that the US is doing nothing about this man, it's that the US is actually helping him.

Do I like it? No. Am I planning to bring it up, just as soon as we have the luxury of worrying about tertiary targets? Yes.

I am delighted to hear that you'll be bringing this up in the future when possible. When you do, I'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you.

It's a fair question to ask, but the answer's no, for a very simple reason: the folks on the far Left - more accurately, ANSWER, which is far, far Left; I am explicitly not including the 'regular' far Left, here - are voluntarily supporting regimes like North Korea and calling for the unconditional support of the Iraqi insurgents.

As I said in my earlier post, I join you in condemning their call for unconditional support of an "anti-colonial resistance" that is bombing humanitarian relief agencies. (By the way, Justin Blake, the phrase referred to is in paragraph 9 of page 1, although Michael slightly misquoted it).

I also thank you for recognising that these people do not represent the opinions of the vast majority of the anti-war movement or the left. These people damage our cause and allow conservative debating opponents to tar us all (knowingly or unknowingly) with the same brush as terrorist sympathisers when I can categorically tell you that we are not.

One of the reasons I personally opposed the war was becasue I feared that this kind of senseless slaughter would be an inevitable result. It absolutely does not give me any shred of satisfaction nor does it englist any scrap of support. There are some things so fundamental that all reasonable people debating this situation can agree upon regardless of political affiliation, and I think that this is one of them.

The US government in operating not out of choice, but necessity*.

And this is where we differ. I feel that now the wider coalition against terror has established bases in Afghanistan and the Taliban are defeated, then the US could close its bases in Uzbekistan and stop giving big wedges of money to Karimov. I respect the fact that you have wrestled with this as have I and hence I doubt either of us will convince the other. I just find it very difficult to countenance co-operation with the likes of Karimov, Kin Jong-Il, Saddam et al.

I hate that immensely, but I hate the alternative more.

I understand that you think it is necessary, but to reiterate, it was "necessary" to fund and train Osama Bin Laden and Saddam back in the day, and these things have a proven record of coming back to haunt us. I fervently hope that in ten, twenty years time we're not facing a massively armed, hostile and militant ex-ally in central Asia. Again.

I would just like to sign off by saying <simpsons>Gasp! Jimmy Carter? He's history's greatest monster!</simpsons> Heh!

Posted by: Jonah at October 29, 2003 06:58 AM

Please. The only way to prove your dis-association with people who share one opinion with you--who do not even share it anymore!--is to follow them around making counter protests?

The KKK has actually killed people, so your analogy is not perfect.

Does the Catholic Church have to follow around the more repugnant anti-abortion and anti-gay-rights groups to prove they do not support murder?

Posted by: Katherine at October 29, 2003 07:35 AM

The chief goal of American foreign policy is protection of American lives and interests. In order to do so, we should support dictators if they are our dictators. When they turn against us, we should crush them.

I sincerely hope that this viewpoint asking Americans to support those who torture, rape and suppress democracy is no more representative of the general rightist view than the ANSWER call to support terrorists striking against US forces and humanitarian aid workers is representative of the general leftist view.

Like I say, there are some things so fundamental that all reasonable people debating this situation can agree upon regardless of political affiliation.

Anyone who tells you differently is kidding himself.

The entire Bush administration told me differently. Do you consider them to be kidding themselves?

Posted by: Jonah at October 29, 2003 07:38 AM

Jonah,

You agreed earlier that American foreign policy can't take a "unless everything is perfect, we won't do anything" approach.

Should we not have allied with the murderous, expansionist Soviet Union to take out the murderous, expansionist Nazi Germany?

I'm sure you're right that Karimov is a brutal, murdering dictator, as was Hussein when we supported him in the 1980s. But, unlike Hussein in 2003, he is neither anti-American nor waiting for an opportunity to restart a weapons of mass destruction program.

I hope that once we've established a prosperous, free and stable Iraq, its influence will help topple neighboring dictators like Karimov.

After all, the U.S. won the Cold War against the communists, at least partially, by rebuilding a free Germany as a counterexample to a brutal Soviet Union.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 29, 2003 08:00 AM

Hello Matt. Thank you for your comments.

Should we not have allied with the murderous, expansionist Soviet Union to take out the murderous, expansionist Nazi Germany?

As I understand it, Nazi Germany and the Soviet union were already at war when America gallantly decided to come to the rescue of their non-murderous, non-exansionistic European allies who Hitler had on the ropes. Nor did the US fund Stalin's purges and pogroms. The situations do not bear comparison.

I hope that once we've established a prosperous, free and stable Iraq, its influence will help topple neighboring dictators like Karimov.

On this, we are agreed. As I said earlier, the fact that Saddam is gone is undeniably good news. Our main focus now should be to expedite the creation of a propserous, free and stable Iraq able to maintain its own security and act, as you say, as a beacon to its totalitarian neighbours.

If this would be best facilitated by bringing in more foreign help, even if this required a handover of political and military control to a more multilateral force such as the UN then so be it. A minor loss of face for the Bush administration would be a price I would willingly pay for the cessation of terrorist suicide attacks on US forces and innocent civilians. That would be a most effective protection of American lives and interests.

Posted by: Jonah at October 29, 2003 08:55 AM

mobius1 – You’re right – I did respond to your original comment too quickly, and it does read like a personal attack. Your original comment about your opposition to ANSWER was impressive - well written and carefully designed to appeal to your audience here (libertarian socialist?). Have you ever worked in marketing?

I was surprised by the contrast between what you said here and your comments on LGF. I was also disappointed – you appeared to be presenting a rational point of view, and genuine opposition to ANSWER. But this rational point of view was an illusion.

The central, rallying cry behind this anti-war march in Washington was ‘Bring our Troops Home’. Bringing our troops home would probably cause a civil war in Iraq, resulting in the establishment of a Baathist or Islamist regime. As Michael said, “If we don't run away, they are not going to win.”

Giving the UN more 'control' over Iraq wouldn't mean that our troops would come home. What could the UN accomplish without our troops?

ANSWER directly opposes UN involvement in Iraq - another reason why even leftist writers for Salon are disappointed by a movement that is dazed and confused.

You said: “They are opportunists who hijacked our movement, and trust me, there are those of us out here who are indeed fighting to get it back.”

How, exactly, are they ‘fighting’ to get it back? When someone suggests that you openly oppose ANSWER, you imply that this suggestion is fascist. I’m looking for a rational, coherent point of view here, but all I find is the old ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’. ANSWER hates the American government. The ‘resistance fighters’ hate the American government. They and the anti-war movement share the same enemy, the Bush administration. If we wait for the anti-war crowd to oppose these thugs, we’ll be waiting for a long time.

Posted by: mary at October 29, 2003 09:24 AM

Katherine: The KKK has actually killed people, so your analogy is not perfect.

So what? An imperfect analogy prevents you from getting my point? ANSWER's friends have killed millions of people. You are offended when I suggest you protest them? Why? Do you hate Republicans more than you hate Fascists and Communists? Get a grip, Katherine. I'm not a Republican, but I am far less a Communist or a Fascist.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 09:26 AM

Hey Jonah,

I don't think the fact that the Soviets were fighting the Nazis six months before we got into the war or that we were also allied with the British, free French, et. al., has any bearing on the fact that we were allied with the Soviets, as evidenced by the tremendous amount of material we sent to northern Russian ports, at enormous loss to our own merchant marine.

Roosevelt didn't intend for those tanks and guns to be used in Stalin's internal killings, anymore than Bush expects the money he's sending to Karimov to be used for anything other than keeping terrorist infiltrators from crossing over into Afghanistan from Uzbekistan. But I get your point that it's awful hard to control how the money is used once it's disbursed. I just wish the EU and the US were as eager to audit the billions sent to the Palestinian Authority.

One thing you have to realize is that I'm as eager for U.S. troops to be in Iraq/Afghanistan as an old man is to shovel six feet of snow off his driveway after a big snowstorm. I wish we could turn it over to the United Nations and get the hell out of there. But I'm deeply skeptical that such a course would work. Just as the invasion would never have occurred if U.N. approval had been mandatory, I think the U.N. will cut and run if they are in charge. Their utopian pacifism, combined with healthy doses of anti-Americanism, would make their resolve to stand up to continued bombing attacks extremely brittle. We could use foreign troops, especially Muslim ones, but things must remain under US command for the forseeable future.

Our best hope is to turn security and the hunting of the Baathists and Islamists increasingly over to a reconstituted Iraqi army, not the U.N. Once the sane Iraqis see themselves as in control of their own destiny, the terrorists will melt away, and we can go the hell home.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 29, 2003 09:39 AM

Mary said:

The central, rallying cry behind this anti-war march in Washington was ‘Bring our Troops Home’. Bringing our troops home would probably cause a civil war in Iraq, resulting in the establishment of a Baathist or Islamist regime. As Michael said, “If we don't run away, they are not going to win.”

Too right. Now that the coalition are in Iraq, it would be incredibly remiss of us to suddenly pull out and leave the Iraqis up a certain creek at the mercy of these bombers. If we did that, Iraq would become a greater threat to the security of the western democracies than it was under Saddam. Also, now that we've blown the place up, I think we have an obligation to rebuild it.

Giving the UN more 'control' over Iraq wouldn't mean that our troops would come home. What could the UN accomplish without our troops?

Giving the UN more control would have several benefits:

1) The UN has had a lot of experience of this nation building business, and the Pentagon seem to be making a right pig's ear of it.

2) This may be unfortunate and unfair to the US but as pragmatists we must recognise that it is the case: if the occupation and rebuilding effort was seen to be UN-led politically and militarily, it would be much more difficult for these bombers to forment popular resentment amongst the moderate Iraqi population. This is why these terrorist are going after the UN so hard: increased UN presence and involvement would be disastruous to them.

3) A UN mandate for and explicit control of the reconstruction effort would make it a lot easier for the administrations of nations such as Pakistan (and other Arabic nations with a high level of mistrust of the US on the street) to justify to their populations sending troops to Iraq to keep the peace. This would reduce the burden on the US military which is overstretched anyway.

4) Ceding control of Iraq would instantaneously cut the ground out from under the feet of critics who say that the war and subsequent occupotion are all about US control of Iraqi politics and resources.

There is a lot to be gained by giving control to the UN and all there is to lose is a little face for neo-con hawks who've frankly, cocked the whole thing up since the statue came down.

Posted by: jonah at October 29, 2003 09:55 AM

Jonah,

I think your points on the UN's strengths misses the point. I don't doubt that European and Pakistani peacekeepers are better at directing traffic and setting up water systems, etc. than American combat troops. I wish they were there yesterday.

But these peacekeepers are woefully bad at actually fighting. In 1995, at Sbrenicia in Bosnia, Bosnian Serb troops literally yanked the guns out of the hands of Dutch peacekeepers and told them to sit down and shut up while the Serbs murdered thousands of Bosnian Muslim men and boys. The Dutch government was so mortified by this that it resigned power.

I'd love for the U.N. experts to be helping us in Iraq. But without American combat troops protecting them and controlling the overall situation, UN peacekeepers would be slaughtered en masse by the Baathists and Islamists.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 29, 2003 10:32 AM

Jonah,

My overall point is that the UN can play a crucial role in rebuilding a country after the enemy has had the fight beaten out of them.

The UN is doing a fairly good job in Bosnia now, but it required the rearming of the Bosnian Muslims and the real threat (and occasional use) of American and British force. Not to mention harrying Milosevic out of power four years later.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 29, 2003 10:39 AM

Skinhead subculture - "aggro" and drinking
Paper presented in Nordisk Konferanse om barn og ungdoms egne initiativ for bedre oppvekst- milj”, 6.-8. november 1997, Oslo, Norge.
In a suburb of a small town in eastern Finland a visitor sees slogans written on the walls of the houses: "Multicultural Finland, an experiment doomed to fail", "Finnish Finland, the only possibility", "The equality between races, the most dangerous myth of the human kind", "Kill somali", "Niggers, punks, hippies and conchies welcome to our place. Skinheads". These slogans and white power symbols showed that visitor is approaching the unfriendly territory.

In this presentation I would like to analyse the meaning of seemingly mindless culture of skinheads. "Aggro" or violence and drinking seem to be necessary features of this culture. I try to answer the question: why skinheads are violent, why do they drink and which kind of relations exist between these activities in skinhead culture. My starting point is that although violence and drinking seem to be senseless, they are somehow intertwined with the meaning- structure of the whole culture. Skinheads are not the only people e.g. in Finland who are violent and who drink.

Skinheads as a social movement
Skinheads have been the most efficient social movement of youth in Finland during 1990's. Only the attacks of animal liberation front to fur farms has got as much attention in the publicity. Which are the factors that have made skinheads so forceful social movement. We can apply a description of the development of social movements introduced by german sociologist Rammstedt (1978, see also Hyv„rinen 1985). The main reason for the influence of skinheads and attention paid to their activities is that they have managed to locate and express some socially significant problems and explanations of the problems and that they have found appropriate manners to proclaim their views. The exceptional effectiveness of the skinheads is that they have not been satisfied with parliamentary ways of action but that they have used direct action to solve the problems. The direct action have included violent attacks against refugees and other people of colour (including a black american basket ball player), attacks against young anti-racists and other people who are opposing racism and extreme right wing nationalism.
An other viewpoint can be derived from Jaana L„hteenmaa's praiseworthy analysis of ideology and motives of skinheads based on the interviews (L„hteenmaa 1991). According to L„hteenmaa the ideology and action of skinheads is motivated by two phenomena which have had a strong impact to Finnish society: internationalization and the change of gender relations. Skinheads have found a "magical" - as L„hteenmaa writes referring to subculture theory of birmingham school - solution to insecurity which young Finnish males feel and which is a result of internationalization process. Somali people and other people of colour represent concretely this process.

Lähteenmaa also discusses the problem, how young boys become skinheads. She thinks that although disapproval of refugees is one of the central notions of skinhead ideology, it does not necessarily require a concrete experience of problems, which are interpreted to be brought about by refugees. Many of the skinheads in Joensuu have anyhow lived their childhood and adoles- cence during a period of time when big industrial enterprises in their home suburb were closed down and many of their parents became unemployed. Unemployment resulted in growing problems with living because economical depression and inappropriate or lacking professional training of the parents made it impossible for them to get a new job. These people and their sons did not respect too much the Finnish official immigration policy, which they interpreted to be the reason for accommodation of the refugees in a hotel. When experiencing at the same time dropping standard of living and reading in the newspapers the "luxurious" life of refugees in the hotel the arriving at a simple cause-effect interpretation was unavoidable. In Joensuu the skinhead subculture is thus based on concrete experiences of social unfairness. Skinheads articulate the interpretation shared by larger community which associates somali's and other refugees to the experiences of unemployment, lack of money and humiliation in welfare office.

Social background of skinheads in Joensuu
Skinheads in Joensuu are young men aged from 13 to 25 years. Only very few girls have participated in the skinhead violence although many of the boys have girlfriends. The social background of the skinheads have not been systematically studied but in any case they come from very varied family backgrounds. Some of the leading figures of the subculture are from upper middle class families and have either professional education or completed secondary education. Many of the boys in the core group are from working class or lower middle class families and have not completed secondary education or professional training.
The origin of the subculture can be found in a group of boys who lived in a same neighbour- hood and were in nearby secondary school or vocational school. These boys have some problems with the local authorities because of troubled behaviour. In the beginning of 1990's they begin to adopt features of skinhead subculture, including uniform clothing and other features of skinhead outlook. They also began to study and assume skinhead ideology, its values and doctrines. The skinhead violence against somali people began in 1992 and since then they have had quarrels with other foreigners and anti-racist young people and with casual passers- by. Some of the skinheads have been sentenced to prison because of assaults and doing damages.

The skinhead subculture in Joensuu comprises many subgroups. The core group of the subcul- ture consists of young men who posses a conscious neofacist ideology. The core group cannot - and most probably is unwilling - to control the activities of other skinheads. The other skinheads outside of the core group can be divided in two groups, the first of which comprises older boys who have either already finalized their secondary or vocational education or who are presently in the upper secondary or vocational school. The second group contains younger boys who are in the last grades of primary school. The total number of skinheads in Joensuu is estimated to be 150-200.

Skinhead ideology - a justification of violence
One of the starting points when analysing skinhead violence is to distinguish the violence, which is ideologically motivated and the violence which is more or less haphazard.
When trying the understand skinhead violence and culture from the point of view of skinheads' it is indispensable to study their ideology, which skinheads use to justify their actions.

Skinhead ideology is a collection of racist, fascist and nationalist notions. The roots of many of the notions of skinhead ideology can be found in ancient western and/or eastern philosophy. Skinhead ideology is quite clear, logical, simple and explicit, which explains why it appeals to young boys, who are seeking explanations for the problems they face in their lives. Above mentioned features of skinhead ideology make it also understandable why ideology attracts also many representatives of older generations, who have grown up in 1930's and 1940's in a extreme right wing and racist atmosphere.

One of the central notions in skinhead ideology is the idea of naturalness, from which e.g. following political notions has been derived:

a) a conception of naturalness of nation state and the natural territory of different people. One skinhead explains his relation to foreigners: "We don't hate foreigners. We just don't accept immigration of foreign population which differs ethnically and culturally in a great extend from us. The highest possible material and mental well-being can be only achieved in a country which is ethnically and culturally unified. The people belonging to other nations and races have a right to live and enjoy their lives in their own countries." Next notions by a skinhead have direct references to nature and biology: "From the biological viewpoint human races differ form each other: somebody stands cold some other is a child of sun. Everybody ought to develop culture in one's own country. It is a law of nature that a person belongs to his/her own country. Climate and nature have worked out the human species belonging to certain area. Why we ought to mess this up. Anybody knows what happens when human being interfere in the circulation of the nature. (Raippa 1995).

By attacking the immigrants: black, chinese, turkish people skinheads aim at reinforce or reestablish the law of nature. They regard themselves as the warriors who defend western culture and even the natural order, without which the world is destroyed.

The content of the notions, which were expressed by skinheads themselves, are in a large extend similar than the notions which were the substance of nazi-ideology and which also belonged to the nationalist ideology of those people who had dreams about "Great-Finland" before second world war (Röhr 1996). A german researcher Heise (1964, in Röhr op.cit.) characterized the relation between racism and scientific facts:

Racism tries to use scientific facts in order to give race-ideological myths a scientific appearance. The scientific validity of nazi-ideology, which was emphasised by nazi-ideologists, is only a nonsense rhyme and a conjuring trick, done by reducing social relations to unconnected scientific facts and by explaining sociohistorical processes biologically. This notion of Heise applies also to skinhead ideology.

Anyhow it is possible that skinhead ideology differs to some extend from nazi-ideology: skinheads do not necessarily consider themselves or representatives of white race superior to other people. Because of this skinhead can state that: "Skinheads are totally different from nazis." (Raippa op.cit.). Allthough skinheads are reluctant to confirm the closeness of their ideology to the nazi-idology one of the publications spreading neofacist ideology in Finland "National Course" is also familiar to skinheads and they widely read and refer to it. Some of the issues of this publication advertise Totenkopf-publication, the main content of which is describing the history of SS-troops and their "unbelievable adventures".

b) protection of national culture is one of the main aims of skinheads, which is related to the ideas mentioned above. The most important threat to national culture is mixing with other cultures. This is the threat that skinheads want to repel by their violent, direct action.

Symbolically skinheads defend national finnish culture by having Finnish flag tattooed on their heads or sewed on the sleeve of pilot blouse. These are symbols of resistance against mass culture, americanization and communism and against unpatriotic groups, which they found in media, especially in newspapers and TV and amongst those civil servants who define and implement the official immigration policy and amongst other youth groups, which are opposing skinheads.

c) a further aim of skinheads is to eliminate all kinds of abnormalities like homosexuals, lesbians and other kinds of sick and deviant people. This aim also is related to the idea of naturalness and it also relates skinheads to nazis. Skinheads define themselves as normal and they can justify
their actions by referring to the fact that they - when seen from their own viewpoint - in some respect defend the interests of the majority of population.

d) the most important social political notion of skinheads is that the strong have a right to rule the weak. This notion is based on the darwinist principle of natural selection as a basis of sound social development. Social policy is - according to skinheads - unnatural because it supports the system, which prevents natural social progress based on the failure of the weak and triumph of the strong. The people in developing countries ought to left alone without help, because it could bring about natural, social development, which e.g. could stop the growth of population. This notion have clear connection to the extreme ecological notions and can be used as a further ideological justification of violence.

Skinheads attitude towards politics, political parties or politicians is suspicious, they think that parliamentary political system is inefficient. They also think that in Finland there is not a nationalist party enough and their goal is to establish such an organization. Because skinheads distrust political system they think that violence is an appropriate measure to forward their ideological and political ideas.

The second important starting point - in addition to notion of naturalness - of skinhead ideology is notion of action. The notion of action means shortly that in order to become a member in a skinhead subculture a person must prove that he is ideologically like-minted and that he is ready to act in order to realize the ideological ideals. Action, which often means violence, is also internationally known as a central feature of skinhead subculture (Moore 1994, Brake 1980). By action i.e. by violence a member of subculture proves loyalty to the whole group and its values and notions. Action is also a means to get more fame and respect from the group and thus to improve own position within the subculture. If the a member of skinhead subculture would like to be regarded as hard or tough he must take part in violent actions. Violence is one way to gain reputation in the group. From the point of view of skinheads violence is regarded as necessary and it shows that a person is brave and fearless. Violence affirms skinhead identity through displays of group solidarity. (See More ibid., 65-66). Violence is a logical outcome of the meaning structure of skinhead culture.

One feature of skinhead violence is that it sometimes seems to be haphazard, skins attack occasional passers-by. Older skins in Joensuu explain this by saying that the aggressors are younger skinheads who want to become members in the group. The more credible explanation is given by David Moore, who has studied skinheads in Australia. According to Moore these attacks are connected to the ethics of joyful evening, the basic starting point of which is, that evening has been amusing only if there has been a fight. An other feature of joyful evening is drinking and thus these two acticities are closely related to each other.

References:
Brake, M. (1980). The Sociology of Youth Culture and Youth Subcultures. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul.
Clarke, J. (1973). Football Hooliganism and the Skinheads. Birmingham: Centre for Contem- porary Cultural Studies, University of Birmingham, Occasional Paper, Sub and Popular Culture Series No. 42.

Clarke, J. (1976). The skinheads and the magical recovery of community. In Hall, Stuart - Jefferson, Tony (eds.). Resistance through Rituals. London, Hutchinson.

Hyvärinen, M. (1985). Alussa oli liike. Tutkimus yhteiskunnallisten liikkeiden mahdollisuuk- sista. Tampere: Vastapaino.

Lehmus, H. (1990). Skinhead-ilmiö osana suomalaista nuorisokulttuuria. Julkaisematon opinnäyte. Tampere: Tampereen yliopisto, yhteiskunnallinen opetusjaosta. Nuorisotyön tutkinto.

Lähteenmaa, J. (1991). Hip-hoppareita, lähiöläisiä ja kultturelleja. Nuorisoryhmistä 80-luvun lopun Helsingissä. Helsingin kaupunki, Nuorisoasiainkeskus, julkaisuja 1:1991. Helsinki.

Moore, D. (1994). The Lads in Action. Social Process in a Urban Youth Subculture. Aldershot: Arena, Gower House.

Puuronen, Vesa (1996). Skineys ideologiana ja toimintakulttuurina. Nuorisotutkimus 3/1996. Nuorisotutkimusseura. Helsinki.

Raippa, R. (1995). "Julkisuus on vääristänyt kuvaa meistä". Skinien oma kertomus. Sanoma- lehti Karjalan Heili, 23.4. 1995. Joensuu.

Ramstedt, O. (1978). Soziale Bewegung. Frankfurt a/M: Suhrkamp.

Röhr, W. (1996). Fasismi ja rasismi: rotusemitismin asema kansallissosialistisessa ideologiassa ja politiikassa. In Rasismi tieteessä ja politiikassa - aate ja oppihistoriallisia esseitä. Vankein- hoidon koulutuskeskuksen julkaisuja 1/1996. Helsinki: Edita.

Söderholn, S. (1987). Rockmusiikki ja nuorisokulttuurien tyyli: modit, skinheadit ja punkkarit. Teoksessa Söderholm, Stig (toim.). Näkökulmia rockkulttuuriin. Helsinki: Otava. Willis, P. (1984). Learning to Labour. Guildford: Saxon House.

Posted by: Premise of article is WRONG at October 29, 2003 11:34 AM

Everybody's friends have killed millions of people. Nationalism caused colonialism and WWI; capitalism caused black lung and a million other ills.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 29, 2003 12:17 PM

Kimmitt,

How many people has liberalism killed?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 01:38 PM

Kimmitt,

By the way, I mean liberalism in the broad sense, and not merely the left-wing of the Democratic Party.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 01:39 PM

mary:

Your original comment about your opposition to ANSWER was impressive - well written and carefully designed to appeal to your audience here (libertarian socialist?). Have you ever worked in marketing?

i currently work in marketing, thanks. libertarian socialist--yes, click the link i provided above. it provides a thorough study of the philosophy including well thought out positions against it.

The central, rallying cry behind this anti-war march in Washington was ‘Bring our Troops Home’. Bringing our troops home would probably cause a civil war in Iraq, resulting in the establishment of a Baathist or Islamist regime. As Michael said, “If we don't run away, they are not going to win.”

did i attend this rally? no. because i disagree with it. i agree that now that this mess has started, we have to finish it. i just don't like the idea that hundreds of our soldiers are coming home missing limbs. and being the son of a committed veterans activist (my father is the former state commander of the jewish war vets department of nj), and being aware of the growing national debt, i am gravely concerned for the wellbeing of our troops, not only overseas, but once they return home as well. i don't believe they should've ever been sent over there--that is for sure. but now that they're there, no, for certain, i don't believe they can just walk away. not without a proper transition of power at least.

Giving the UN more 'control' over Iraq wouldn't mean that our troops would come home. What could the UN accomplish without our troops?

well, it would mean that bush couldn't dole out contracts to all his financial supporters. i think that the promise of financial gain for government contractors played a much larger role in the buildup to war than anyone on the right or in the center cares to cede, and i believe it's playing a major role in policy decisions still. at least the u.n. won't pad cheney's bank account.

ANSWER directly opposes UN involvement in Iraq - another reason why even leftist writers for Salon are disappointed by a movement that is dazed and confused.

what's your point here? i oppose ANSWER too.

You said: “They are opportunists who hijacked our movement, and trust me, there are those of us out here who are indeed fighting to get it back.” How, exactly, are they ‘fighting’ to get it back?

by creating coalitions that do not incorporate ANSWER leadership. by not attending ANSWER rallies. by educating our fellow activists about ANSWER's stalinist roots.

When someone suggests that you openly oppose ANSWER, you imply that this suggestion is fascist.

openly opposing ANSWER does not mean showing up to their rallies as protest warriors and provoking conflict with other demonstrators. i would rather go to a non-ANSWER rally than show up to theirs and agitate. it's a matter of wasted effort. i'd be wasting my time fighting ANSWER when i could be doing more productive things.

I’m looking for a rational, coherent point of view here, but all I find is the old ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’. ANSWER hates the American government. The ‘resistance fighters’ hate the American government. They and the anti-war movement share the same enemy, the Bush administration. If we wait for the anti-war crowd to oppose these thugs, we’ll be waiting for a long time.

how many times can i say it? i am anti-dictator. i am anti-suppresion of freedom. i am anti-human rights abuses. i am anti-civl rights abuses. i am anti-fascist. i am anti-racist. i am anti-war, death & killing. i am pro-freedom, pro-liberty, pro-human rights, pro-civil rights, pro-peace, pro-prosperity.

i'm still making up my mind about communism vs. capitalism, but i am definitely in favor of communitarian socialism and expansive libertarianism. i'm not pro-stalin, i'm not pro-marx, i'm not pro-lenin, tho i can see why they'd appeal to others who have different political & spiritual beliefs than me... what the hell else do you want me to say?

Posted by: mobius1 at October 29, 2003 02:14 PM

You people are being ridiculous. The premise of the original article is so off-base it becomes almost meaningless. Does any of this sound like "A.N.S.WE.R." to you?

Gimme a break.

----------------------

a)By attacking the immigrants: black, chinese, turkish people skinheads aim at reinforce or reestablish the law of nature. They regard themselves as the warriors who defend western culture and even the natural order, without which the world is destroyed.

The content of the notions, which were expressed by skinheads themselves, are in a large extend similar than the notions which were the substance of nazi-ideology and which also belonged to the nationalist ideology of those people who had dreams about "Great-Finland" before second world war ...

b) protection of national culture is one of the main aims of skinheads, which is related to the ideas mentioned above. The most important threat to national culture is mixing with other cultures. This is the threat that skinheads want to repel by their violent, direct action.

Symbolically skinheads defend national finnish culture by having Finnish flag tattooed on their heads or sewed on the sleeve of pilot blouse. These are symbols of resistance against mass culture, americanization and communism and against unpatriotic groups, which they found in media, especially in newspapers and TV and amongst those civil servants who define and implement the official immigration policy and amongst other youth groups, which are opposing skinheads.

c) a further aim of skinheads is to eliminate all kinds of abnormalities like homosexuals, lesbians and other kinds of sick and deviant people. This aim also is related to the idea of naturalness and it also relates skinheads to nazis. Skinheads define themselves as normal and they can justify
their actions by referring to the fact that they - when seen from their own viewpoint - in some respect defend the interests of the majority of population.

d) the most important social political notion of skinheads is that the strong have a right to rule the weak. This notion is based on the darwinist principle of natural selection as a basis of sound social development. Social policy is - according to skinheads - unnatural because it supports the system, which prevents natural social progress based on the failure of the weak and triumph of the strong. The people in developing countries ought to left alone without help, because it could bring about natural, social development, which e.g. could stop the growth of population. This notion have clear connection to the extreme ecological notions and can be used as a further ideological justification of violence.

Posted by: The premise of the original article is dead wrong at October 29, 2003 03:54 PM

"how many times can i say it? i am anti-dictator. i am anti-suppresion of freedom. i am anti-human rights abuses. i am anti-civl rights abuses. i am anti-fascist. i am anti-racist. i am anti-war, death & killing. i am pro-freedom, pro-liberty, pro-human rights, pro-civil rights, pro-peace, pro-prosperity."

Well, if that's true, then opposing ANSWER would hardly be time wasted.

Posted by: tsmonk at October 29, 2003 04:28 PM

Note to Mr. Anonymous who posted above.

The comparison of ANSWER to skinheads is very straightforward. They are both American supporters of foreign fascists, in one case Nazis and in the other Baathists and Isalmists.

The similarities break down beyond that point. Of course they aren't exactly the same, but I never said they were. It is a loose analogy. It's not necessary for you to take it so literally and run with it to such an extreme. You've done a great job obfuscating my point, but have added no clarity or insight of your own. Do you have a better analogy?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 04:31 PM

ANSWER has no power whatsoever. Opposing ANSWER would be a complete waste of effort.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 29, 2003 04:57 PM

Kimmitt: Opposing ANSWER would be a complete waste of effort.

It might get Ann Coulter to shut up or at least be taken less seriously. That ought to count for something, don't you think?

It would also make me feel less alienated by the left. And you need me and other disaffected liberals to vote your way, Kimmitt, if you don't want Bush in the White House for two terms.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 05:23 PM

"POSTSCRIPT: Let me clear up any potential misunderstanding in advance. I am referring specifically to the rally organizers at ANSWER, not to every person who shows up to protest or who opposes the war." - Michael

Why give them a bye? They're compilict in ANSWER's support of atrocity [and others] through at the very least being too ignorant/lazy to determine who's backing the rallies and causes they flock to. Just as the 'Nam era "peace" activists were accessories to Pol Pot's and Ho-chi-minh's atrocities. Aiding and abetting.

"Peace activist" is beginning to be an oxymoron. We need a new word for them.

How about "Dictator Groupies"? ;]

Posted by: Ironbear at October 29, 2003 06:18 PM

Ironbear,

It is important to make distinctions. Not all anti-war activists are as you characterize them.

Check out this guy, who wrote about my post.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 29, 2003 06:31 PM

mobius1 – you say how many times can i say it? i am anti-dictator. i am anti-suppresion of freedom. i am anti-human rights abuses. i am anti-civl rights abuses. i am anti-fascist. i am anti-racist. i am anti-war, death & killing.

So you’re anti-fascist. What do you dislike about fascists like Saddam Hussein or the Taliban, or the current regimes that exist to enforce Islamic law in countries like the Sudan and Nigeria? Tell us about it, go into the details. How many anti-war protesters have ever carried signs protesting the abuses in Uzbekistan? How many times have they marched in front of Uzbek embassy? How many times have they protested the abuses of other oppressive oily regimes that have been friendly with every US president, Democrat or Republican, since the oil fields were built – like Saudi Arabia? How many times have anti-war types protested in front of that embassy? I attended a protest there, and I didn’t see a single anti-war activist.

You say you and ANSWER have united for a common cause – what cause is that? Suppose your dreams came true and you're able to overthrow the democratic American government that offers its citizens more freedoms and civil rights than any other country in the world. What would you replace it with? Chomsky’s so-called liberal socialism, or ‘anarchism’. Chomsky hoped that America would achieve the same revolutionary ideals as the Viet Cong. Supposedly, he's not anti-democracy anymore, he's an ‘anarchist’. Right. A new name isn't going to sell old, recycled Marxism. Everyone in marketing knows you shouldn't waste time trying to polish a turd.

What would I like to see? I’d like to see anti-war activists protesting fascist regimes. I’d like to see them directly opposing ANSWER. Pat Robertson supports the war in Iraq, but I’m more than willing oppose him – in print, in a protest march, in my free time just for fun. Like ANSWER, he’s beneath contempt. I'd like anti-war movement to have the courage of their supposed convictions.

[An interesting side note – the A.N.S.W.E.R. site has a list of “A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS” – one of the evil, oppressive interventions listed was the Berlin Airlift. The Berlin Airlift is an example of American Imperialism in a Century of War. What a pathetic organization.]

Posted by: mary at October 29, 2003 07:12 PM

Jonah,

You’ve made a stinking array of morally and intellectually bankrupt arguments. Some people may buy your attempt to present a reasonable face. They may give you the benefit of the doubt. I won’t.

So, I guess my question is: since it's morally repugnant for the far left to speak in support of the likes of Kim Jong-Il, is it not far more morally repugnant of the Bush administration to actively fund the likes of Islam Karimov?… My point wasn't that the US is doing nothing about this man, it's that the US is actually helping him.

The Karimov regime is truly repugnant. But you are deliberately distorting the position of the Bush administration. Afghanistan is landlocked and surrounded by corrupt cesspools. The only way to attack the Taliban was to buy access to Afghanistan from neighboring regimes like those in Uzbekistan and Pakistan. It is impossible to support our operations in Afghanistan without continued access from multiple routes. But of course you know that already. What you lefties do is a big lie. You pretend that you supported going to war against the Taliban, but then you insist on not dealing with regimes that are essential to success. You hecklers are loathesome. You sit back on the sidelines and criticize those who have to make difficult decisions. It must be nice to never have responsibility and never have to compromise your ideals to protect freedom.

Are you saying that ANSWER's message, i.e. that "The anti-war movement here and abroad must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance." is central to the entire anti-war constituency? If so, then you are quite wrong. I for one am deeply saddened and shocked by the continuing attacks and instability in Iraq, whether the targets are Iraqi civilians, US or UK forces or innocent humanitarian workers. If you doubt that I am representative, take a look at these extracts from this Guardian article:

That Guardian article was morally repugnant and is filled with socialist lies. That filthy bastard who wrote the article can barely hide his glee that Americans, Brits and Iraqis are getting killed. It is well documented that Saddam had extensive weapons programs. It is well documented that Saddam had extensive ties to Al Qaeda and countless other terrorists groups. The Iraqis did greet us as liberators. The “anti-war” crowd has gotten everything wrong. If the “anti-war” crowd had had its way, Saddam would still be in power. He and his spawn would still be filling mass graves, waging genocide and running torture chambers. He would still be developing his WMD programs. And France, Germany, Russia, China and all the rogue regimes that have hijacked the UN would be continuing their agenda of dismantling the containment regime. If this article is representative of what you believe, then it is a good example of your moral and intellectual corruption.

If you're going to start saying that "the truth hurts", then please at least start by ascertaining what the truth actually is rather than relying on your own pre-judgements about the motives of the anti-war constituency.

The truth is that the “anti-war” constuency is comprised primarily of transnational socialists who hate capitalism and therefore hate America as long as it remains a sovereign, free-market, liberal capitalist nation-state. ANSWER is just the most extreme example of the moral and intellectual rot that permeates the American left wing. The rot extends all the way to the Democratic primary candidates. To dismiss the rot as something limited to ANSWER is a scapegoating.

I am delighted to hear that you'll be bringing this up in the future when possible. When you do, I'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you.

Bullshit. If we went to war against the Karimov regime, you would oppose it. Your grandstanding here would be conveniently forgotten. You would stand with Karimov just like you stood with Saddam.

I understand that you think it is necessary, but to reiterate, it was "necessary" to fund and train Osama Bin Laden and Saddam back in the day, and these things have a proven record of coming back to haunt us.

More socialist lies. We didn’t fund and train Bin Laden or Saddam. We supported the Afghans against the Soviets. But I suspect you don’t think the Cold war was a just cause except for the Soviets. Bin Laden was supported by the Saudis and the Pakistanis, not by us. With respect to Saddam, our material support of his regime was insignificant. Our assistance to him was mostly restricted to intelligence. And the only reason we supported Saddam at all was to prevent his defeat at the hand of Iran. That was the only viable choice we had given the nature of the Iranian regime.

If this would be best facilitated by bringing in more foreign help, even if this required a handover of political and military control to a more multilateral force such as the UN then so be it. A minor loss of face for the Bush administration would be a price I would willingly pay for the cessation of terrorist suicide attacks on US forces and innocent civilians. That would be a most effective protection of American lives and interests.

What makes you think that more UN or foreign involvement would bring a “cessation” of attacks? That is once again bullshit and you know it.

Giving the UN more control would have several benefits:

Wrong. It would have no benefits, only costs. If we turned this over to the UN, any hope for a Democratic Iraq would be lost. France, Russia, China and the Arab nations all want to subvert democracy in Iraq because democracy in Iraq threatens their interests. THE UN MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO CONTROL THE RECONSTRUCTION OF IRAQ UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

1) The UN has had a lot of experience of this nation building business, and the Pentagon seem to be making a right pig's ear of it.

Wrong. The UN has never succeeded in nation building. They only get involved after someobody else like the US or Australia has done the hard work. The UN does have tremendous experience at enabling genocide in places like Rwanda and Bosnia. Some people point to East Timor as an example of success. The truth is that the UN made a mess of East Timor until Australia stepped in and bailed the UN out.

2) This may be unfortunate and unfair to the US but as pragmatists we must recognise that it is the case: if the occupation and rebuilding effort was seen to be UN-led politically and militarily, it would be much more difficult for these bombers to forment popular resentment amongst the moderate Iraqi population. This is why these terrorist are going after the UN so hard: increased UN presence and involvement would be disastruous to them.

This is more bullshit. It is a left wing fantasy that the terrorists in Iraq are some kind of “popular” resitance to colonial occupiers. The terrorists are Baathist remnants and Islamists who are waging war against the Iraqi population and anybody who is trying to help the Iraq population.

3) A UN mandate for and explicit control of the reconstruction effort would make it a lot easier for the administrations of nations such as Pakistan (and other Arabic nations with a high level of mistrust of the US on the street) to justify to their populations sending troops to Iraq to keep the peace. This would reduce the burden on the US military which is overstretched anyway.

Who do you think the majority of Iraqi people trust more? The US or the UN? Do they trust the Pakistanis? The other Arab states? The French?

4) Ceding control of Iraq would instantaneously cut the ground out from under the feet of critics who say that the war and subsequent occupotion are all about US control of Iraqi politics and resources.
There is a lot to be gained by giving control to the UN and all there is to lose is a little face for neo-con hawks who've frankly, cocked the whole thing up since the statue came down.

Bullshit. There is nothing that would appease the critics of the war. That is because the critics of the war don’t give a shit about the war or the Iraqis. Their only motive is hatred of the United States because we are a sovereign free-market liberal capitalist nation state that proves how much of a failure socialism is.

One last thing. Thanks to you “peace” protesters, the deterrent effect established by walking over Saddam’s regime has been squandered. Back in April, Damascus, Riyadh and Tehran were all wondering who was next. Now they know nobody is next because America doesn’t have the political will to overthrow another one of the terrorists sponsoring rogue cesspool regimes. Now that the deterrent effect has been lost, Syria, Iran and Saudia Arabia are all letting the Islamic terrorists flow into Iraq to join the Baathist remnants and wage their campaign of terror. And when they blow up the UN, Red Cross, Iraqis, Americans and our coalition partners, you can rest assured that their blood can be traced directly to the “peace” movement. You and the “peace” movement have blood on your hands. I can only hope that you and your ilk will someday be held accountable.

Posted by: HA at October 29, 2003 07:42 PM

Kimmitt,

HA, all due respect (none whatsoever), but you're making an argument for Michael Totten to flee from your ranks.

Since you have characterized me as a "fascist" and a "fuckwit", then you are saying that Michael is in the ranks of fascist fuckwits. Very clever, Kimmitt.

capitalism caused black lung and a million other ills.

Just when I think you've reached the depths of your stupidity, you find another abyss. I hate to break the news to you, but coal mining caused black lung. Even socialists mine coal. Maybe not the Western variety of socialist "academics", but the real world proletariat slaving away in the world's various socialist hellholes sure do.

Posted by: HA at October 29, 2003 07:54 PM

While we are talking about Sbrenicia, lets talk about two other events, Rwanada and Cambodia.

I Rwanada, General Romeo Dallaire constantly warned that a BIG BAD THING was going to happen. Kofi Annan, who was in charge of peacekeeping did nothing. Dallaire, found out when it was going to happen and that it could be stopped if he took immediate action. He asked Annan for permission. Annan told him to stay out of it and notify the government. Well we know how that turned out.

In Cambodia, reports started pouring out about the ongoing genocide. Noam Chomsky, having waged a battle against the Vietnam war (good) decided that this was a pack of lies and waged a battle against the New York Review of Books and used his influence to suppress it (very bad). After it became obvious that it did indeed happen, Comsky never appologized for his actions and instead said, "the US made them do it" (reprehensible). And the UN did nothing.

Again with Sbrenicia, In the case of the balkans, the UN did mostly nothing, it was Nato that changed things. With Kosovo, Clinton had to launch a unilateral attack (with Wesley Clark leading) to stop a genocide on the rise. Interestingly enough Paul Krugman applauded that.

These three events have convinced of the utter hypocrisy of the left and the UN.

Like Michael I became a disaffected liberal also.

Posted by: larry at October 29, 2003 08:41 PM

Posted by Kimmitt at October 27, 2003 09:04 PM

> Mussolini was a Marxist until he rejected
> Marxism for fascism. It's that simple.

He modified it to fit his situation... It's that simple.

> Look -- Fascists simply do not share Marxist
> approaches. They do not view history as a
> series of dialectics

Mussolini did. He just didn't think Italy was at the stage for Marxist socialism yet.

> (the fascist movement has no single view of
> history);

True, but most of what you'd call fascism isn't fascism (re: every tin pot dictator is not a fascist). Yes, Nazism did not share the same view of history as Italian fascism.. I’d look to Hayek for a few reasons why. Namely, if you allow a militant single party to take power with a single powerful leader, you need to buy his personal views on things (period). If Hitler thinks a return to nature is ‘good’ and Jews are ‘bad’, than you better think so to… or else… Same as a Castro for instance, who doesn’t seem to like Afro-Cubans much… so, they are discriminated against.. Even in the ‘Marxist’ haven that has a single view of history, class-consciousness, et cetera…

> they do not view the primary struggle as being
> between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie

Nonsense, have YOU read any Mussolini.
As to Hitler. He had a lot of problems with capitalism, people with ‘unearned income', people using productive resources without considering the good of the people, profiteers, et cetera. He threatened to nationalize businesses that did not begin to take the good of the people into account.

> (they view it as a struggle between ethnic or
> national groups);

Mussolini was not much of a racist. Competition has to be seen in the Euro Romantic model. They didn't like the order of things and wanted a new man created. They thought having military components in the personality was a positive.. How this is so different than the 'lefty' Soviet Union escapes me (I’ve seen my share of ‘socialist realist art’ and know it glorifies the military / martial aspects of the persona).. Especially after Stalin…

But back to Hayek, give a leader to much power and you need to accept their Narcissist BS..

> and they do not believe in the large-scale
> redistribution of income as part of a workers'
> dictatorship -- all fascist regimes have been
> capitalist regimes.

Have you done ANY research on Nazi Germany? They didn't seize the means of production, no. They did not murder the managerial class (who are a national asset)... They did fully plan the economy, regulate profit levels, and provide large-scale 'progressive' social programs (which is large scale redistribution of income)… Kinda like Sweden. Are they fascistic too?

> This is like saying, "All governments collect
> taxes coercively, so therefore all governments
> are essentially the same."

It was at the end of several arguments in my post; it was a fair statement in that context...

Posted by: Thomas at October 29, 2003 09:11 PM

"Ironbear,
It is important to make distinctions. Not all anti-war activists are as you characterize them.
Check out this guy, who wrote about my post." - Michael

Thanks for the link. Interesting... be nice if more of those groups drew those exclusions.

I'll agree with you that it's a difficult question. And forgive me if I continue to fail to draw that distinction when the end result is the same, regardless of the motives of the protestors.

I'll quote a Spockism back to you: "A difference which makes no differnce, is no difference".

Keep in mind, this isn't as clear and simplistic a conclusion for me to have come to as it reads in text. I grew up around older friends who were 'Nam veterans. I grew up around friends who were sincerely anti-vietnam war: some sincere, some from less altruistic reasons. I grew up and later went to college with children of southvietnamese refugee families, and got to hear a dramatically different side of the abandonment and fall of south vietnam than we saw on the tube. I spent 18 months fighting maoists in Latin America as a 20 year old - I've seen the end result of Marxist/socialist militant philosophy up close and personal. Some of my friends died from it.

Some of my close friends now are strongly anti-US involvement in the Middle East. They can't comprehend how I can accept the view that Bush may not be lily-white, and still support the war on Iraq [and whomever our next target in that region may be].

shrug I respect your views, that's why I continue to read your blog. I do disagree with you on that one area though: it's still complicity regardless of the "purity of motives" for the protesting - the end result of the peace protestor's work is failure in Iraq, witdrawl and victory for the Ba'athist's and islamofascist, and a return to innocents being fed into treetrimmers.
And mass graves of children.

End result if our involvement is successful, is that the Iraqi's and Afghani's may have a chance for something better. May take a generation for us to know, and by that time, Bush's part in it will be long past.

If good results can come from flawed mechanisms, then evil results can come from "pure motives".

"Ve vas chust vollowink orders!" didn't work at Nuremburg, and "But we MEANT well" doesn't work in the face of the boneyards in Cambodia.

Hope that explains in a bit more depth my disagreement than the fast quip did. [I was rushed earlier]

Every protestor and anti-war activist, and every media pundit and academian, to the extent that they made the national resolve crumble to the point that our betrayal of South Vietnam became inevitable... every one of them owns a peice of those boneyards in Cambodia, and the mass graves in Laos. Metaphoric blood, but it's still on the hands. Aiding and abetting - no different than an accomplise to murder.

Insofar as their efforts aid and abet ANSWER, the UN's "Dictator of the Month" policies, and similar, if they're successful in helping to support a job half done withdrawl from the mid-east, then every modern "peace activist" will own a part of what comes after.

shrug Just as if it goes sour in spite of our best efforts, all of us pro-Iraq people will own a part of the success or failure.

If my sentiments sound harsh to any of ya'll with peacenik leanings, well... just remember that a bullet in the back of the head and getting tumbled into a mass grave is a hellofalot harsher for the people killed by the regeime's your protests support. Might spend more time examining the end results and less time the purity of your motives.

[Last paragraph in general, Michael, not directed to you]

Posted by: Ironbear at October 29, 2003 10:12 PM

Short version [and inevitable quip ;)] is that I'll stick with "Dictator Groupies" for a descriptive. grin

Posted by: Ironbear at October 29, 2003 10:15 PM

Kimmett,

I will put unfortunate, ignorance Captialist deaths up against 100 million forced deaths in Communism any day of the week.

Yes, Black Lung, but at the time no one knew, how can you blame that on Capitalism? As a matter of fact it was this capitalistic society that found Black lung. Meanwhile those Coal workers in the Soviet Union probably kept right on getting black lung and dying. So I think that is a wash.

The only close thing is Lung Cancer from Cigarettes, but only after the Tobacco Companies knew they were deadly. And even the they put on the packs of Cigarettes, that the things will kill you.

Of course I know it is so easy to preach from yon Ivory Tower, than to come out into the real world and put to practice said theories.

Posted by: James Stephenson at October 30, 2003 05:00 AM

Hi Matt. While I can see your point about supping with a long spoon when you have to (a good example being WW2, as you say), but I'd still question whether the situations there and in Uzbekistan/Afghanistan are analogous. I'm not convinced that US military power is so shaky that it was necessary to enlist Unzbekistan's assitance in order to defeat the Taliban. Convenient yes, necessary, no.

However, we risk getting bogged down here and missing what I think is the real point.

One thing you have to realize is that I'm as eager for U.S. troops to be in Iraq/Afghanistan as an old man is to shovel six feet of snow off his driveway after a big snowstorm. I wish we could turn it over to the United Nations and get the hell out of there. But I'm deeply skeptical that such a course would work. Just as the invasion would never have occurred if U.N. approval had been mandatory, I think the U.N. will cut and run if they are in charge. Their utopian pacifism, combined with healthy doses of anti-Americanism, would make their resolve to stand up to continued bombing attacks extremely brittle. We could use foreign troops, especially Muslim ones, but things must remain under US command for the forseeable future.

Our best hope is to turn security and the hunting of the Baathists and Islamists increasingly over to a reconstituted Iraqi army, not the U.N. Once the sane Iraqis see themselves as in control of their own destiny, the terrorists will melt away, and we can go the hell home.

I don't agree with you that the UN would cut and run. Don't mistake an preference for peace with outright pacifism. The sad fact is that the coalition either needs help or needs to dramatically increase the number of our own troops which are on the ground. We need to find a solution, to low troop numbers and spiralling costs and fast.

I'd posit that this is the real debate that we (and the rest of the free world) should be having: what is the best and quickest path to free, democratic Iraq that minimises the continuing cost in innocent life? Rather than engaging in unproductive partisan sniping and accusing each other of being as bad as Nazis or Stalinists (and let's face it, both sides of the spectrum are guilty of this) we should be seeking some common ground upon which we can unite to push forward a solution to the Iraq problem that best serves Western and Iraqi interests.

As for the wider war on terror, military force is undoubtedly a vital component, as we saw in Afghanistan. But it is not the only component. As Donald Rumsfeld said in that leaked memo (which I thought showed that he's being pragmatic and not sticking his head in the sand):

Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

You have it right there: in order to win this war, we need to minimise terrorist recruitment as well as maximising the number of terrorists we eliminate. There are as Rumsfeld says, four main ways of doing this: capturing, killing, deterring and dissuading. Now, we've got the capturing and killing down pretty pat, but I'm sure we can all see the logical fallacy of trying to deter suicide bombers with the threat of death.

On the dissuasion front, though, I think we are really damaging ourselves with support for Karimov. Karimov is putting down an islamic terror group by torturing and killing any practicing muslim. Imagine the show was on the other foot, say a regime was detaining and executing Christians just for going to church? How do you think that would play on the "Western street"? How do we persuade the wider muslim world that this is a war on terror and not on Islam whilst helping to fund this kind of thing? Bottom line: every regime like this which we support makes it easier for the madrassas and radical clerics to recruit and deploy previously moderate peaceful muslims against us. That means we are hampering our own efforts in the war on terrror. That is not in Western interests.

Posted by: Jonah at October 30, 2003 05:09 AM

You’ve made a stinking array of morally and intellectually bankrupt arguments. Some people may buy your attempt to present a reasonable face. They may give you the benefit of the doubt. I won’t.

It saddens me that you feel that anyone who doesn't agree with a hundred percent of what you believe cannot be reasonable and must therefore be presenting a "face". nonetheless, I'll try to address the points you raise.

The Karimov regime is truly repugnant. But you are deliberately distorting the position of the Bush administration. Afghanistan is landlocked and surrounded by corrupt cesspools. The only way to attack the Taliban was to buy access to Afghanistan from neighboring regimes like those in Uzbekistan and Pakistan. It is impossible to support our operations in Afghanistan without continued access from multiple routes.

Indded, but a) Uzbekistan was a particularly bad choice given our current war on terror (as explained in one of my earlier posts) and b) now that we have secure bases in Afghanistan, why continue to cosy up to him?

But of course you know that already. What you lefties do is a big lie.

Please don't let this debate degenerate into wild generalisations about huge swathes of the spectrum of political beliefs.

That Guardian article was morally repugnant and is filled with socialist lies. That filthy bastard who wrote the article can barely hide his glee that Americans, Brits and Iraqis are getting killed.

That's why he wrote "No progressive should want to see these villains land a blow on British or American forces" is it?

I'm not going to address the rest of that paragraph since although it's entirely wrong, those issues have been done to death in discussions of Iraq and we all know how the dance goes. I'm not going to bore everyone here with it all over again.

If this article is representative of what you believe, then it is a good example of your moral and intellectual corruption.

It represents what I believe in so much as it says that although the left opposed the war, now that it has happened we should totally support the reconstruction effort and condemn the flithy terrorist bastards who are attacking our troops and innocent civilians. I think that that's the only reasonable position for someone who opposed the war and I fail to see why it should be an indication of moral or intellectual corruption.

The truth is that the “anti-war” constuency is comprised primarily of transnational socialists who hate capitalism and therefore hate America as long as it remains a sovereign, free-market, liberal capitalist nation-state.

Oh. I see. You're of the "if you don't agree with me then you must hate America" persuasion. I don't suppose there's much point in continuing to attempt a more reasoned dialogue with you but I'm probably being too harsh there and so I will.

Bullshit. If we went to war against the Karimov regime, you would oppose it. Your grandstanding here would be conveniently forgotten. You would stand with Karimov just like you stood with Saddam.

I've just been on this forum denouncing him! My very first post stated that the removal of Saddam was a good outcome of the war! You appear to have decided what I believe according to your own assumptions rather than what I've written.

We supported the Afghans against the Soviets.

Including training and logistical support. Bin Laden was prominent in the Mujahedin in Afghanistan at that time.

With respect to Saddam, our material support of his regime was insignificant. Our assistance to him was mostly restricted to intelligence.

I understand that the assistance also included anthrax and bubonic plague. I've yet to see a refutation of those claims made in the Washington Post, anyway.

Wrong. [UN involvment] would have no benefits, only costs. If we turned this over to the UN, any hope for a Democratic Iraq would be lost. France, Russia, China and the Arab nations all want to subvert democracy in Iraq because democracy in Iraq threatens their interests.

Could you be more specific please? Which interests exactly would be served by seeing Iraq fall into chaos?

This is more bullshit. It is a left wing fantasy that the terrorists in Iraq are some kind of “popular” resitance to colonial occupiers.

Again, I point you to what I've already written:

"I for one am deeply saddened and shocked by the continuing attacks and instability in Iraq, whether the targets are Iraqi civilians, US or UK forces or innocent humanitarian workers."

What on earth makes you think that because I was against the war I am therefore in favour of terrorist attacks? These people are bombing aid agencies! Any reasonable person must deplore them!

The terrorists are Baathist remnants and Islamists who are waging war against the Iraqi population and anybody who is trying to help the Iraq population.

Yes, they are right now, but the longer the occupation and reconstruction is an entirely US-led affair the easier it becomes for them to make the accusation that the aim of the US is to exploit and subjugate Iraq and hence to recruit from the wider Iraqi population. This is why we need as speedy a transition to Iraqi self-rule as can be safely made, and the legitimacy that comes from an international mandate. There's no point in giving these people propaganda sticks to beat us with!

Who do you think the majority of Iraqi people trust more? The US or the UN? Do they trust the Pakistanis? The other Arab states? The French?

Unfortunately, trust in the US in the Arab world as a whole is pretty darn low. This is why we need to start regaining trust there. We need to cut the ideological feet out from under the enemies of western democracy.

Bullshit. There is nothing that would appease the critics of the war. That is because the critics of the war don’t give a shit about the war or the Iraqis. Their only motive is hatred of the United States.

Oh. Seems I wasn't being too hash after all. I hope that in future you can try and see a motive for dissent other than hating the world's greatest nation. Toleration of dissent is one of the hallmarks of a truly free country and one of the founding principles upon which America was built. It is one of the features that distinguishes between the western liberal democracies and regimes such as those of Saddam Hussein, Kim Il-Jong and the former Soviet Union.

Anyway, I've said my peice now. I hope I've raised a little awareness here of Islam Karimov and I'm now going off to write to my representative about him like the America-hating communist enemy of democracy that I apprently am. See you around.

Posted by: Jonah at October 30, 2003 06:31 AM

Why do bad philosophies keep feeling the need to hijack previously good words? First modern liberals hijacked the old meaning of the word liberal...so those who believed in the old form of liberalism came up with the term libertarianism. And now we have this libertarian socialism? If that doesn't DEFINE oxymoron, I don't know what does...

Posted by: libertarian at October 30, 2003 06:41 AM

Jonah,

I think you and I largely agree that the UN could be a big help to the US in Iraq, and I certainly agree that military force is only one component of the War on Terror, and not even the most important. In fact, other components like intelligence gathering and police work, when they are effective, often make military force unneeded.

But I feel that too many UN member nations are, to put it on the line, utterly opposed to what we are trying to accomplish in Iraq. Whether they are Third World leaders who don't want a free and prosperous Iraq to be a rallying point for those who wish to overthrow their oppressive and incompetent regimes or First World countries like France which, through utopian pacificism or a crude attempt to counter American power, are doing whatever is opposite of our policy.

It's like setting a fox to guard the chickenhouse. And I think the UN will be as ineffective and feckless at searching for WMD in post-war Iraq as it was before the war.

But you've got some good points about Karimov. Something to chew on.

Sorry for the badly written post. Back to work.

Posted by: Matt Ward at October 30, 2003 09:31 AM

Jonah,

It saddens me that you feel that anyone who doesn't agree with a hundred percent of what you believe cannot be reasonable and must therefore be presenting a "face".

There are plenty of people who disagree with me on most things that I still view as reasonable. Michael is one of them. But not when it comes to this war. The case for this war is so overwhelming that I can’t see how any informed, reasonable person could dispute it.

now that we have secure bases in Afghanistan, why continue to cosy up to him?

Because we have ongoing operations there. How are we going to support them if the Musharraf regime falls?

Guardian: "No progressive should want to see these villains land a blow on British or American forces"

Why did this even need to be stated? Because too many “progressives” (i.e. socialists) are gloating about American and coalition forces getting killed.

It represents what I believe in so much as it says that although the left opposed the war, now that it has happened we should totally support the reconstruction effort and condemn the flithy terrorist bastards who are attacking our troops and innocent civilians. I think that that's the only reasonable position for someone who opposed the war and I fail to see why it should be an indication of moral or intellectual corruption.

Because it is obvious that the UN is a corrupt failure. It is obvious that that the Baathists and Islamists waging their terror campaign don’t want the UN there any more than they want the US there. Because the UN member nations want us to fail and Iraq to sink back into dictatorship. The reason this is an indication of moral and intellectual corruption is that the only reason anyone who understands the UN could suggest handing this over to the UN is because they want to subordinate US national sovereignty to the UN. If you dispute the contention that the game the “anti-war” movement is playing is to undermine US national sovereignty, why do you continue to say we don’t have UN support even after the Security Council has unanimously endorsed US control of the occupation and reconstruction?

I've just been on this forum denouncing him! My very first post stated that the removal of Saddam was a good outcome of the war! You appear to have decided what I believe according to your own assumptions rather than what I've written.

Why do you single out Karimov and Uzbekistan for condemnation? Why not Russia for Chenya? Why not Robert Mugabe? Why not Sudanese Arab Muslims for slaughtering and enslaving black Christians and Animists? Why not China for Tibet? I’ll tell you why. It is because you want to smear the US.

I understand that the assistance also included anthrax and bubonic plague. I've yet to see a refutation of those claims made in the Washington Post, anyway.

Are you insinuating that the US knowingly and deliberately wanted Saddam to develop anthrax and plague WMD programs? These transfers were from American research institutions to Iraqi research institutions. These types of transfers were commonplace with many countries. They had nothing to do with us supporting Saddam’s WMD programs. And these transfers took place back in the 1980's when Saddam was still considered to be a "progressive".

Could you be more specific please? Which interests exactly would be served by seeing Iraq fall into chaos?

Because the Arab and Iranian regimes are threatened by a free and democratic Iraq. Freedom is infectious. France, Germany, Russia, China and the UN bureaucracy want us to fail because they were siphoning off money from the Oil-For-Palaces program into political patronage and cronyism.

What on earth makes you think that because I was against the war I am therefore in favour of terrorist attacks? These people are bombing aid agencies! Any reasonable person must deplore them!

Here is a quote from the Guardian article you linked to: “People who can murder UN or Red Cross workers do not deserve to be viewed as warriors in a heroic anti- imperialist struggle. No progressive should derive any satisfaction from their operations, even if their ultimate target is an occupation we opposed from the start.”

In other words, the “occupation” is a legitimate target of the “resistance”. But if they attack the UN and Red Cross, the “anti-war” movement cannot support them.

You linked to this article to support your position. I can only assume that it represents your position. If it doesn’t, you should repudiate the article.

The author gloats about how the “The anti-war camp has been proved right on every point. “

I defy you to watch this video and tell me that the “anti-war” camp was right about anything:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101689,00.html

This is why we need as speedy a transition to Iraqi self-rule as can be safely made, and the legitimacy that comes from an international mandate. There's no point in giving these people propaganda sticks to beat us with!

We already have an international mandate from the UN Security Council. What more do you want? And we are trying to transition to Iraqi self-rule as soon as is practical.

Unfortunately, trust in the US in the Arab world as a whole is pretty darn low. This is why we need to start regaining trust there. We need to cut the ideological feet out from under the enemies of western democracy.

There is nothing we can do about that. The Arab world is as pathological as Nazi Germany. The only path is to create a free and democratic Iraq that will spread and undermine the corrupt Arab regimes. And one more thing, The Iraqis have a dim view of the rest of the Arab world at the moment. The Iraqis know who is on their side.

Here is a good example of what the Iraqis think about the rest of the Arab world from Michael:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/000134.html

Toleration of dissent is one of the hallmarks of a truly free country and one of the founding principles upon which America was built.

I support your right to dissent. But that doesn’t mean that your dissent should be above criticism, even harsh criticism. You and candy-asses like Tim Robbins shouldn’t whine about “toleration of dissent” when you get criticized. If you can’t handle the heat, then get the hell out of the kitchen.

And don’t forget that your right to dissent is given to you by the hard men and women for over two hundred years who have made made difficult decisions, fought and died, and stood watch to preserve your your freedom. Those brave people who are doing so today need our undivided support in order to succeed.

Posted by: HA at October 31, 2003 03:03 AM

Jonah,

Here is the left wing viewpoint straight from the horses mouth. You people only hide your gloating because it is political suicide:

regardless of right or wrong.
we dont want to be associated with supporting the killing of our own troops.
that would be political suicide... we dont want to be associated with "supporting" Iraqi resistance.
something like that would make us (dems, libs, progs, whoever) look terrible and just give the opposition fuel.

This is from Democratic Underground:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=614380

I found it via Andrew Sullivan:

http://andrewsullivan.com/

Posted by: HA at October 31, 2003 03:32 AM

His point was that whether or not a given policy is a good one, if we are painted by lying, freedom-loathing fascists like HA* as being "against the troops," we will commit political suicide.

*Happy Halloween, HA! Eat a dick.

Posted by: Kimmitt at October 31, 2003 06:35 PM

Kimmitt,

Eat a dick.

You're embarassing yourself. I suggest therapy.

Posted by: HA at November 2, 2003 06:28 PM

Posted by libertarian at October 30, 2003 06:41 AM

> libertarian socialism? If that doesn't DEFINE
> oxymoron, I don't know what does...

Your the second, or third, person to say that so I guess I'll address it.

I'm a US libertarian and I don't think it is an oxymoron. In Europe an anarchist can be seen as a libertarian socialist. It's just that it is not 'socialism' in a Marxist sense. They advocate a sort of voluntary commune without a government. It's libertarian in that you are free to leave (yes, you can leave to join/start another society with different views). They don't advocate any group coercion. Also, it is a minimalist state (re: none).

Posted by: Thomas at November 3, 2003 01:46 PM

Posted by HA at November 2, 2003 06:28 PM

>> Kimmitt,

>> Eat a dick.

> You're embarassing yourself. I suggest therapy.

Oh my higher power, using homosexual practices as a pejorative!! Homophobia!!! Someone get Kimmitt into a mandatory sensitivity class and give her a hate speech fine (if not jail)!!!!

Posted by: Thomas at November 3, 2003 02:19 PM

I'm a guy, idiot.

Posted by: Kimmitt at November 4, 2003 10:26 PM

Re: Thomas

I see, so you're a libertarian, who, like the marxists, communists, etc. believes it's possible to change human nature. Got it.

Posted by: libertarian at November 5, 2003 08:04 AM

The comparison of ANSWER to skinheads is very straightforward. They are both American supporters of foreign fascists, in one case Nazis and in the other Baathists and Isalmists.

Skinheads are fiercely nationalistic, xenophobic, anti-intellectual racists who enjoy drinking and fistfighting and despise multiculturalism, immigrants, and homosexuals.

ANSWER types are fiercely internationalist, multiculturalist "pacifists" who favor teach-ins and pot smoking and despise corporations and the military.

The similarities break down beyond that point.

They sure do.

Of course they aren't exactly the same, but I never said they were. It is a loose analogy.

Loose enough to drive a humvee through.

You've done a great job obfuscating my point, but have added no clarity or insight of your own. Do you have a better analogy?

Skinheads were a unique subculture in many ways- white, uneducated, working class European, British and American hooligans who participated in a cultural backlash against all things "hippie," and expressed their frustrations through reactionary action = attacking immigrants (ie Paki-bashing) and staging rock events such as the infamous "Rock AGainst Communism" movement.

Similiarly, peacenik activists represent a unique phenom - priveleged, overeducated colleged kids more versed in theory than reality who feel secure enough in their own positions as the citizens of wealthy, industrialized countires to stridently denounce the econonomic and foreign policies of these same countries.

Why not let the two phenomena stand on their own? People know what they are, their ideologies (though mutually exclusive) are not difficult to understand.

The comparison you attempt to draw between the two subcultures obfuscates far more than it illuminates, and will only confuse those unfamiliar with either.

Posted by: The premise of the original article is dead wrong at November 7, 2003 01:56 PM

Interesting site, is all true ?

Posted by: Marcus David at January 19, 2004 11:33 PM

??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????,??????? ??????.Skinheads
?????? ?????? ???? ????????

Posted by: troll at February 16, 2004 06:12 AM

'Of course' is cyanide of the mind.

Posted by: Johnsrud Karin at March 17, 2004 10:34 PM

u rule

Posted by: richard at March 26, 2004 12:57 AM

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it..

Posted by: Blinn Anne Isacowitz at May 2, 2004 02:47 PM

To be poor without bitterness is easy; to be rich without arrogance is hard.

Posted by: Karpf Josh at May 3, 2004 02:00 AM

fuck all u white mother fuckers repersenting a lost cause ,think you will survive in this hasil
in the power of punk metal will live on but skin heads will eventualy die out,fuhcking suking each others dicks and talking about hateing gays quear
cunts. im a niggar .......niggar....... niggar

Posted by: punk metal rocker at June 8, 2004 05:08 PM

punk rock, 1 skinheads, 0. fuck u skinheads, bring back the original rudeboys, anti-racism, we will kick ur ass! SKA...punk will unite and fight the skinhead to the ground where they belong!

Posted by: tommy hall at June 14, 2004 07:29 AM

After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood.

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