"Sometimes I wonder: Do they ever feel like they are missing an arm?"

To be honest, I'm a bit more concerned with how the arm feels about the whole thing...

Moe,

Am I the arm? I feel like the arm.

Yes, Yes, and Yes. This is absolutely where I'm at, too. I'm sick of the "peace and justice" crowd hijacking my Democratic Party and I'm even more sick of them calling it "Liberalism". It's not! It's Leftist! For how much longer must this continue? I don't know how much more I can take. Their "peace" is Isolationism and their "justice" is Socialism...BOTH OF WHICH ARE NOT LIBERAL! This all began, I think, with the 60's New Left. The Campus Movement became the Peace Movement became the Backbone of the Democratic Party by 1972, and now, 30+ years later, here we are again and nothing has changed. Clinton tried to modernize the party, return it to its glory days, and root out the New Left power structure and I can't help but respect him for that. Woodrow, Franklin, and Jack would have no doubt approved. But, he failed. What remains, the Imperialism and Theocracy of the Right/The Isolationism and Protectionism of the Left...neither will win the War on Terror. And that's the greatest tragedy of all. Where have all the "Cold War Democrats" gone? "An Open Letter To The Party of Wilson and Roosevelt" indeed...if only that party still existed, today.

"Am I the arm? I feel like the arm."

Yeah, you're the arm. I'll spare you the usual agitprop about coming on over to the GOP, too. Sh*t, the only reason I joined up was because I figured that being on the inside piss*ng in was probably going to be more effective in the long run...

I think that liberal hawks (of which I am one, I suppose) are mistaken in trying to draw a sharp distinction between themselves on the one hand and leftists and socialists on the other hand. (Aren't the TVA and Social Security, for instance, basically socialist programs?) Instead of fleeing from the "left" label, shouldn't we be trying to reclaim it for its original anti-totalitarian and pro-democratic principles?

Hey - far be it from me to point out what conservatives have been saying for years. The fact is that your "left" is nothing more than socialists/communists/anarchists with zero grounding in reality.

Just as the Republican party was hijacked by the religious right and had to be purged, so does the left. Democrats refuse to admit to the very anti "Liberal" values that many within their own party hold. For the past three years the Democrat party, not just the "left", has gleefully engaged in the attempted destruction of anyone and everyone they do not agree with.

Until such time as those of you in the Democrat party stand up to the elements of your own party, nothing will change. As much as it might pain you to admit, the Republican party is a good extbook case in how to purge yourself of fringe elements. You can still steadfastly refuse to keep up with the times and insist that we are all "theocrats", but reality is very different and the party has changed a great deal.

Personally I am starting to see Libertarians as a noble and valid second party and i'm starting to wonder if Democrats aren't just on the road to the dustbin of history - relegated to nominating the candidate that has the greatest chance of winning. Unless folks like the ones who post here start to speak up and demand their party back, it will happen.

What really bothers me about Hitchens and so many liberal hawks is not his/their principled stands against Islamic fascism, its the way in which they are willing in their rhetoric to ignore the rest of the liberal agenda, particularly the economic justice agenda. Hitchens, supposedly a former Marxist, even dismisses in a recent issue of National Journal the idea that Republicans are engaging in reverse class warfare. (sorry link unavailable, it was from around July.) I have no problem with principled social democrats. But Michael, you sound more like a mildly libertarian independent, and many of the other so-called "liberal hawks" are really "Lieberman Democrats" or "Zell Miller Democrats" -- that is, especially in the latter case, Democrats in name only. A person either gives a damn about the power of corporations and the increasingly unequal distribution of wealth in this country and the world, or he or she doesn't. I'm rooting for us in Iraq, and I think it can still work out for the best, but given the rest of Bush's record, I'll shoot myself before I vote for him in 2004. And I'd appreciate it if more liberal hawks said the same thing.

Roark,

Have you seen the most recent picture of Haley Barbour and his KKK, I mean CCC friends? I don't think the Republican party is doing such a good job of "purging" itself of its less appealing elements.

Markus:

Interesting and thought-provoking post. I am a pro-war liberal (British definition) who has very substantial problems with Bush's economic policies. I also have a strong free-trade bias, because I believe economic development is the best way to raise living and health standards in the developing world. While I am very irritated by Bush' political cave-ins to steel and agricultural interests, I am even more appalled by what I see as the Democratic candidates' craven "fair trade" agenda and demonization of China as a trading partner. I fear such policies, if enacted, would damage the U.S. economy and devastate developing country economies. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Roark -- I don't want a Democratic party that is socially liberal and tolerant, and republican on everything else. You sound like a libertarian, not a Democrat.

Daniel Calto -- well the nomination process in the US is really screwed up. I'm mostly a free trader myself, but if you go to Iowa, and really see what the economy is like there, you'll recognize how hard it is as a Democrat to be completely upfront on trade issues and win the early caucuses and primaries. Of course free trade is good for the economy overall, but certain geographic areas just get killed. Sure people can and do move to where the jobs are, but no matter how many people leave the Great Plains in search of greener pastures, North Dakota still sends the same number of Senators to Washington as California does.

But the fact is that anybody who becomes President of the USA is going to be a free trader once he gets in office. Clinton talked about fair trade in the 1992 election as well.

I love that phrase, "30's liberal" as opposed to "60's liberal". I'm a republican, but I can totally live with 30's liberalism. Where do I sign up? :)

This, by the way, is the danger of demonizing your opposition. It becomes more about assigning blame and solidarity with your side than developing good solutions to problems.

The solution? Well, it would help if more moderates voted in the primaries. It would help if the role of television in forming public opinion was reduced. It would help if the media was more evenhanded in their outlook. Mainly, it helps if you sit down with your opponents and respect them, and think before you flip out at them.

Michael, I find this much more in the blogosphere than in any other medium, but I'm worried that if we ever did get significant mindshare from the public, that people like you wouldn't last, and people like Al Franken and Anne Coulter would become the norm.

I know, I know, very "it used to be about the music" of me....

Markus:

I agree somewhat with the primaries vs. post-election effect analysis, but I am convinced that a lot of Dems really mean it--like Dean's repeated crack that our trading partners should have environmental and labor standards similar to our own before we trade with them. No real internationalist who understood anything about economics could assert such a standard. How about "We've got ours--screw those benighted backward Third Worlders!"--that's what such a message really amounts to.

Gephardt has a long and checkered career of never having met a protectionist measure he didn't like--fortunately, he doesn't have a chance of getting the nod.

I have a feeling that if the economy does not turn soon outsourcing of higher-skill jobs in particular will be a major issue in the upcoming election. We all know that political expediency trumps sound trade policy nine times out of ten when push comes to shove. And if the U.S. can't lead on trade issues, who are we going to wait to take up the banner? France and Japan, perhaps? In the long term protectionism would have devastating effects for the developing world and substantial negative impact on the developed world economies.

I'm long past hitching completely on any politician or pundit. Hitchens is a strong voice, though he blathers on sometimes, but he's an imperfect as the next guy.

1) His piece on Bob Hope was pretty disgusting and classless. I never thought Hope was funny either, but hitting a guy after he passes is pretty pathetic.

2) He crucified those for bringing out the truth on Edward Said, he's not from Palestine or Palestinian, as he intimated he was poetically.
Plus, Bernard Lewis said his book Orientalism, which became the toast of academia at "social circles" and "Universities" was so flawed and 3rd rate that it wouldn't even pass for an undergraduate studies course.

Hitchens brother is a conservative and religious. His brother was agaisnst the war and Hitchens who is an avowed Marxist and thus believes religion is silly, was pro war in Iraq.

Mike

Daniel -- the basic problem with free trade is that those people who have jobs and money and investments see its value, while those wwho don't have jobs and those who fear losing their present jobs don't. It is very hard to convince an American who have just been laid off from his computer job that outsourcing computer jobs to India is in his, or his country's, best interest, no matter how many economists draw him charts demonstrating why. It would be easier to sell free trade, I think, if the USA had a stronger safety net, particularly with health care.

Regarding Deans comments, he's backtracked and said he meant to refer to "international labor standards" which I understand is a fairly toothless demand. I don't think I have a problem with that.

Mike - I found Hitchens piece defending Said more convincing than Justus Reid Weiner's Commentary hatchet job. Said's aunt owned property in West Jerusalem. He was born there, he spent a lot of time there with the rest of his extended family growing up, and attended school there for a little while. He probably spent about as much time in Palestine as Al Gore spent in Tennessee growing up. Besides, I recall being told that there are no such things as Palestinians, they're all just Arabs.

Markus:

I agree that the guy who just lost his job wins the emotional side of the argument, but policy decisions need to favor the head over the heart.
Tech workers hardly complained when the global stars were aligned in the 1990's to bring them huge salary increases and incredible job mobility.

The problem of displaced workers is a significant one and will remain so, and the government has a role in addressing it. However, the net benefit of free trade for the nation as a whole is also clear.

The same people who want protectionism for their own jobs scream bloody murder when the price of gas tops $2.00 per gallon or they can't get reasonably priced toys for their kids or they can't buy fresh apples from New Zealand int he middle of winter for $1.29/lb.

You simply can't have it both ways--look at the long-suffering Japanese consumer for a counterexample of what protectionism does for 1) consumer choice and affordability and 2) long-term competitiveness and vitality of the economy as a whole.

The President's job, to my mind at least, is to keep the nation's interests as a whole in mind, not the economic interests of Pittsburgh steel workers or Palo Alto programmers or Iowa corn farmers getting ethanol subsidies for their corn.

Markus: the basic problem with free trade is that those people who have jobs and money and investments see its value, while those wwho don't have jobs and those who fear losing their present jobs don't. It is very hard to convince an American who have just been laid off from his computer job that outsourcing computer jobs to India is in his, or his country's, best interest, no matter how many economists draw him charts demonstrating why. It would be easier to sell free trade, I think, if the USA had a stronger safety net, particularly with health care.

Yes, that's right. And it's why I can't swallow libertarianism whole, nor give up Democratic liberalism.

Daniel,

You can have it both ways. Free trade plus a stabilizing safety-net for the rough patches.

I agreed wholeheartedly with your article. However, please use the term schizophrenic correctly. Schizophrenia is not the same as multiple personality disorder. Thanks.

"Have you seen the most recent picture of Haley Barbour and his KKK, I mean CCC friends? I don't think the Republican party is doing such a good job of "purging" itself of its less appealing elements."

No. Actually I haven't. But I have seen Howard Dean who, if I am not mistaken, is still wondering if freeing Iraq from Saddam Hussein was a good thing or not. As soon as Haley Barbour is running the party - or is in a position to - come talk to me.

"Roark -- I don't want a Democratic party that is socially liberal and tolerant, and republican on everything else. You sound like a libertarian, not a Democrat."

I never claimed to be a Democrat. I am, for the moment, a voting Republican. I have voted Libertarian in the past. And on a rare occasion I have even voted Democrat (it was for Zell Miller though, for governor of Georgia - so that might not count).

What I am is someone who believes that we need a two party system in place for the essential check on power that it provides. Any one party, left alone, would become dangerous.

Right now, however, as the Democrat party attacks everyone and anyone EXCEPT the extremists hijacking their own party they are not the second party, nor will they be, that is needed in national politics.

Schizophrenia is not the same as multiple personality disorder.

I know, and I knew someone would say so. But the word is used this way colloquially, so I went ahead and did it anyway...

Michael:

I agree with you. That's why I say that the problem of displaced workers is a significant one and the government has a role in addressing that need.

When I said you can't have it both ways, what I meant was that it one can't reap the benefits of free trade, which are considerable for all Americans, and simultaneously be in favor of setting up substantial trade barriers. This is my problem with the Democrats "fair trade" rhetoric. It's ill-advised, dangerous, and if a Democrat is elected, will put his administration in a very poor position to lead on this issue. Bush, to his discredit, has also pandered to voters with the steel tariffs and ag tariffs-- and the Europeans and Japanese are even more egregiously hypocritical.

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that the Doha development round will go forward unless the U.S. provides leadership on the issue. Free trade is an issue which will profoundly affect North and South for decades, and shoudn't be held hostage to whats going to get somebody votes in Pennsylvania or Iowa. This is that rare issue where Democrats and Republicans (for different reasons) should be able to make common cause and push on a bipartisan basis. Sadly, that's not happening. This eminently reasonable approach is being discarded by both Dems and Republicans for short-term political advantage.

Schizophrenia is not the same as multiple personality disorder

This is true and, as a former mental health worker, this colloquial use of the word always used to irritate me. But I've since come to realize the word is actually more etymologcially accurate in it's non-clinical usage since it literally means "split mind." So the distortion is actually in its clinical usage: I guess it reflects misconceptions of the disease that existed at the time the term was first applied, but it has since stuck. They should really come up with a new term like "chronic pervasive psychotic disorder" or some such.

But that aside, this was a really good post. It's always good to know there's another "arm" out there: this is a blog I will read.

Markus:

What really bothers me about Hitchens and so many liberal hawks is not his/their principled stands against Islamic fascism, its the way in which they are willing in their rhetoric to ignore the rest of the liberal agenda, particularly the economic justice agenda

I'd agree that a lot of us "liberal hawks" or "pro-war lefties" have been too silent re: Bush's domestic economic policies, but I think many of us have been feeling that Iraq is where the potential for lasting good or irreparable harm is most intensely focused right now. We're talking about the scale tipping between freedom and fascism. The domestic scale that tips gingerly between Bush economics and neo-Democratic party economics seems less of a threat by comparison but will certainly loom larger as the election approaches. Most of us are going to wake up in a cold sweat one of these days shouting "who the hell am I going to freaking vote for?!"

Why can't one of the Democratic candidates just -- CREDIBLY -- say that he sees success in Iraq as one of the most important responsibilities of his presidency? And we can't really be blamed for being less than optimistic that Bush/Clinton corporate stoogism is going to be toppled this year. History just doesn't seem to be there yet but SO much damage will be done if Iraq doesn't pull through this huge historic trial.

I'm just not responsible for the fact that you've gotten seduced by this absurd Pax American adolescent power fantasy.

If you need to go join the Republicans in order find folks who are happy to bankrupt the United States in order to invade every single country on the map with a majority Muslim population, then that's what's important to you. Just keep in mind that your fellow travelers are using you as cover; they don't care about the people who get hurt, just about the power.

Why can't one of the Democratic candidates just -- CREDIBLY -- say that he sees success in Iraq as one of the most important responsibilities of his presidency?

Because it doesn't matter how he or she would say it, you wouldn't believe him?

Lieberman voted for the war and has been strident. Dean acted against the war, because he said that failure would be catastrophic and too high a probability. Now that we're in, his philosophy demands (and he has said this on multiple occasions) that we succeed as thoroughly as possible.

Jeremy -- I think Lieberman has taken a very strong and principled stand on the war and on reconstruction, probably stronger and more principled than Bush. If that's really most important to you, and you want to strengthen the "Scoop Jackson" wing of the party, you should consider supporting him. For me, if he was willing to repeal all the tax cuts, he'd have my full support, insufferable sanctimoniousness and all.

[Michael: Of course, the thing about Hitchens is that he didn't really turn to the right. He has been aggressively anti-fascist for a long, long time.]

Exactly. He didn't "turn to the right" and he's not on "the right".

I love how it seems to go without saying to many people that being in favor of a war against Iraq is necessarily a "right-wing" point of view. And, conversely, that opposing said war against Iraq is a "left-wing" point of view.

As far as I can tell, the only consistent reason people have for believing this is because the President who decided upon the war against Iraq happened to have an ® after his name.

If you need to go join the Republicans in order find folks who are happy to bankrupt the United States in order to invade every single country on the map with a majority Muslim population, then that's what's important to you.

Kimmitt, you'd be a lot more persuasive, or at least less easily dismissed, if you didn't represent those with whom you disagree as so simpleminded, foolish and nefarious. Your straw man arguments get really old.

Right now, however, as the Democrat party attacks everyone and anyone EXCEPT the extremists hijacking their own party they are not the second party, nor will they be, that is needed in national politics.

Actually, the Democratic Leadership Council has been strenously attacking the leftist elements of the party.

Also, the real leftists running for the Democratic nomination, like Kucinich, have next to zero support among Democratic primary voters, a.k.a. the Democratic base.

And don't believe Dean is a real leftist -- he ain’t

Hitchen’s recently called himself an ex-socialist, or recovering Marxist living in a time when capitalism is more revolutionary. Leftists now viciously attack him as “Bush’s mouthpiece”, a “reactionary” and “demagogue”. Though, I guess that’s still not as bad as Dr. Dean calling U.S. Senators who supported the liberation of Iraq “cockroaches”.

d-rod,

When did Howard Dean call senators "cockroaches"?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/politics/campaigns/15DEAN.html

Howard Dean, who is increasingly giving his presidential candidacy an anti-Washington cast, cranked up his rhetoric on Tuesday, saying that if he won, members of Congress were "going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

When Dean says the same of terrorists and Baathists he will have my vote.

He didn't -- the comment was in reference firstly to the House and secondly to DeLay and his cronies (recall, if you will, DeLay's previous business).

In other words, he was making a funny.

Kimmitt, you'd be a lot more persuasive, or at least less easily dismissed, if you didn't represent those with whom you disagree as so simpleminded, foolish and nefarious. Your straw man arguments get really old.

So the owner of this site hasn't advocated that we are in the middle of a generation-spanning war in which we are obliged to defeat (militarily or through sponsorship of insurgent movements) every non-democratic regime in a majority-Muslim country? Because I thought the idea was convincingly advocated.

And even if you do not personally believe that said globe-spanning conflict is good policy, the guys running the show do.

In fairness to Dean, that's what's known as a "simile".

Kimmitt,

I do not think we should invade every Muslim country on this planet. Tunisia? Morrocco? Turkey? Um, no.

I can only see four that are even possibilities right now: Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. And we might not need to invade any of them at any time.

"Why can't one of the Democratic candidates just -- CREDIBLY -- say that he sees success in Iraq as one of the most important responsibilities of his presidency?"

I thought Gephardt also strongly supported Bush's actions on Iraq. But like you said he's not a front runner.

Kimmitt, I'm curious as to how you got from Michael's pictorial that you linked to to "we are in the middle of a generation-spanning war in which we are obliged to defeat (militarily or through sponsorship of insurgent movements) every non-democratic regime in a majority-Muslim country". As for the PNAC, I read most of "Rebuilding America's Defenses" a while ago. I found it a bit scary in its open embrace of hegemony (they actually do use the term Pax Americana); fundamentally logically flawed in its presumption that said hegemony, once all other international threats have been effectively contained, will be to peacefully accepted by the rest of the world for an indeterminate duration; and utterly devoid of the implication that all non-democratic majority-Muslim nations must be invaded.

There's plenty of real stuff to get upset about in the world.

The PNAC is serving as a strawman for war critics. Remember when Rumsfeld et. al. talked trash about Syria, and everyone against the war started screaming, "they're going to invade Syria now! World War III!!!!" Didn't happen, won't happen. The PNAC can have all sorts of fantasies of how things should be done - the Bush administration has not implemented them (you don't need to be a neocon to think 'regime change' is a good idea), and the Iraq war is discrediting the whole unilateralist idea better than any of it's critics has.

I think it has been proven time and again that Kimmet is a socialist.

He is an academic who has probably never worked a real job a day in his life. He also needs to read a lot more Den Beste.

Today talking about Yoggi Berra, said this,

"Yoggi Berra said 'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.' But you'll never convince some academics of that. They think there is no difference between their theories and successful practice, and given that they don't have any real-world experience they can't be convinced otherwise. (There are some people who, if they don't already know, you can't tell 'em.)"

But of this is my opinion. And Lieberman has no chance of winning the Democratic Nomination, the hard Left, the ones who get to pick the Nominee are closet and sometimes open Anti-Semites.

And of course it is my opinion, but when you hear some of things those Anti-War people said, you would believe they are Anti-Semites.

"Kimmitt, I'm curious as to how you got from Michael's pictorial that you linked to to "we are in the middle of a generation-spanning war in which we are obliged to defeat (militarily or through sponsorship of insurgent movements) every non-democratic regime in a majority-Muslim country"."

Because he was frantically backtracking from his earlier statement of "If you need to go join the Republicans in order find folks who are happy to bankrupt the United States in order to invade every single country on the map with a majority Muslim population, then that's what's important to you"? - because I suspect that even Kimmitt would find it difficult to say with a straight face that the Bush Administration is seriously considering the conquest of Turkey.

The phrase "recovering Marxist" is brilliant. The notion that one day at a time you must evaluate your reactions and make better choices after committing to Marxist ideology is profound. It is also beyond many of the tenured professors in higher education. The addictive notion that equality can be imposed from a position of authority on the people is a dangerous fallacy that traps too many minds. Equality of opportunity is a case that has never been made nearly as compelling economicly, although it has been proven historically. It is a tremendous shame that 85 million people died to provide Marxists with a moment of clarity.

Kimmett, if Dr. Dean was trying to make a "funny" as you suggest, employing the word "cockroaches" to describe elected leaders (even as a simile)was, at minimum, foolish and uncivil. It is not a good sign as to his mental state, let alone his capacity to lead and govern. Jeremy's point is right on.

I'm going to go ahead and apologize for my unwarranted comments regarding supporters of the Iraq war. I had an enormous migraine yesterday, and so the world got divided into far more Manichean terms than is defensible.

He is an academic who has probably never worked a real job a day in his life.

For the record, this is an utterly unsupportable and false statement made from a position of supreme ignorance.

Michael,

I can only see four that are even possibilities right now: Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. And we might not need to invade any of them at any time.

The only mechanism that makes invasion of these cesspools unecessary is the deterrent effect. Bush established the deterrent effect by manifesting his doctrine of preemptive regime change in Iraq.

The agenda of the base of the Democratic party would destroy the deterrent effect and make war likely and maybe even inevitable. Make no mistake about it. If Dean wins in 2004, he will be owned by the transnational socialist base of the Democratic party. They will demand that we cut and run from Iraq.

Kimmitt and others of his ilk claim that Dean will stay the course. That is a lie. Opposition to funding the reconstruction of Iraq is the same as opposing the reconstruction of Iraq. Dean has come out and stated that he would oppose funding the operation. Kerry and Edwards have said the same thing. Clark refuses to state a position.

I applaud Lieberman and Gephardt for committing political suicide and taking a stand in support of the funding bill. Neither of course has any chance of winning the primary.

Here's Gephardt:

"It is the only responsible course of action,'' Gephardt said. ''We must not send an ambiguous message to our troops, and we must not send an uncertain message to our friends and enemies in Iraq."

Bravo Gephardt!

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20031016/5593994s.htm

Here is some commentary on the subject by Mort Kondracke the well known raving right-wing lunatic:

Face it: Voting against the $87 billion means voting not to support U.S. troops now fighting for their lives and voting against the reconstruction of Iraq, where people's desperation will make life more dangerous for U.S. troops.

Such a vote is a vote to bug out of Iraq and leave it to the tender mercies of Saddam Hussein, his followers and international terrorists who will kill everyone who associated themselves with the United States and the goal of democratization.

If this were to be U.S. policy, it would destroy this country's standing in the world and fulfill the calculation of Osama bin Laden (and maybe Hussein, too): that the United States is a country of "weakness, frailty and cowardice," easily chased away when inflicted with even modest casualties.
...
And if a majority of Democrats in either the House or the Senate ends up voting against the military supplemental spending bill, that will put a fatal brand on the Democratic Party. It will be the bug-out party.

The only way to explain the Edwards-Dean stance is as a massive pander to anti-Bush, anti-war sentiment raging in the Democratic Party and a response to polls indicating that the public at large opposes the $87 billion aid package.
...
In what might have been seen as low-blow politics, Republicans probably were going to accuse a Democratic nominee who criticized Bush's Iraq policy of somehow aiding Hussein and international terrorism.

But now, if the nominee is Dean or Edwards - or Kerry, if he sides with them - Bush can make that charge openly. And, it won't be a low blow. It will be totally true.

This is exactly what I've been saying except Kondracke doesn't use the "T" word. Read the whole friggin' thing:

http://realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-10_17_03_MK.html

But I'm not the only one using the "T" word. Even Glenn Reynolds is starting to use it:

http://www.instapundit.com/archives/012069.php

If a Democrat other than Gephardt or Lieberman wins in 2004, it will be a disaster for the nation and an even bigger disaster for the Democrats.

Michael Totten writes: "Of course, the thing about Hitchens is that he didn't really turn to the right. He has been aggressively anti-fascist for a long, long time. He didn't change much. His (and our) former comrades did. They broke their solidarity with Iraqi Kurdistan and dumped the old left slogan that says Fascism Means War.

Sometimes I wonder: Do they ever feel like they are missing an arm?"

Michael Totten, do you ever feel like you're missing a fact-checker?

In particular, can you turn up a single endorsement of the Allied invasion from either of the two Iraqi Kurd autonomous governments? IIRC, both were opposed to the invasion. Wouldn't "solidarity with Iraqi Kurdistan" mean "letting Kurds decide whether they wanted us to take over their terrritory"?

As for "Fascism Means War", I think this was a bit of sloganeering on the part of one John Strachey, promoted in the days when he saw fascism as a inevitable global domination of Communism, his preferred system at the time. (He was at one time comrade-in-arms to a man who was soon to be Britain's premier fascist, Mosely, so he knew the ideological underpinnings of both systems well enough.)

Strachey went on to fight fascism in WW II, to his credit. But, despite his waverings about the value of a continued post-war British Empire, he accepted the job, under Defense Minister Attlee, of suppressing post-war Malayan independence, because the Japanese had in large part been pushed out by MPAJA, an armed insurgency that was embarrassingly ... well, leftist. And besides, what about those valuable natural resources that Britain would need? One must be practical about this sort of thing ....

In one of Strachey's later books, he argued that accepting the end of British imperial rule in the Middle East wasn't so bad, because there was still plenty of oil to be gotten, cheaply enough, by accommodating "Arab nationalism". Or, to put it another way, by cultivating the acquaintance of anti-semitic nationalistic socialists. Or he advocated what one might more tersely describe as "appeasing fascists." At least if one is of the turn of mind that clings to simplistic slogans like "fascism means war."

Politics makes for strange bedfellows. I recommend sleeping separately for a decent interval, and condoms for a while after that.

If Dean wins in 2004, he will be owned by the transnational socialist base of the Democratic party.

Dean won't be owned by anyone; his political history is one of pissing everyone off, but being so basically competent that they are forced to deal with him -- in other words, he governed extremely well from the center. Take off the tinfoil hat.

Michael Turner: In particular, can you turn up a single endorsement of the Allied invasion from either of the two Iraqi Kurd autonomous governments? IIRC, both were opposed to the invasion. Wouldn't "solidarity with Iraqi Kurdistan" mean "letting Kurds decide whether they wanted us to take over their terrritory"?

Sorry, Michael. Wrong answer. Some of my work was republished (here is the link) on the government Web site of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and I have been in email conversations with several of the government people there. Believe me, there is a considerable amount of solidarity between them and myself.

Perhaps you could read this speech by Barham Salih, the PUK prime minister.

You could also read the interview with him at Salon where discusses, among other things, the fact that the Western left sold them out. If you have any respect for the Kurds' point of view, you need to pay attention to what they actually say, not what you wish they would say.

Michael: I am happy for you that you have "solidarity" with people within the PUK. As long as the connection is fresh ... Would it be too delicate a question to ask them: "Why didn't you hold any elections between the first (slightly rigged) one about a decade ago, and the present day?"

In the Salon interview, the prime minister of the PUK speaks of a mixture of anticipation and anxiety among Kurds in his sector about any moves on Washington's part to bring about regime change. OK, I'll accept that this man was called the Prime Minister of a region in the Kurdish North (one of two major ones), though it seems like Talabani was the one calling the shots. (About Talabani's position, see below.) Can you point to poll numbers among his people, conducted with relatively bias-free protocols, indicating how much actual popular support his policies had? It sounds like he was aware of some ambivalence. It's hard to imagine he didn't measure it. If in fact it was broadly in favor of a U.S. intervention, it's hard to understand why he wouldn't use such poll numbers. Perhaps the ambivalence was deeper than he wanted to reveal, and more on the side of caution?

Nor would this be the only Kurdish ambivalence. Here, for example, we have a poll from a Kurdish region favoring a U.N. government over a U.S. presence, if the Iraqi regime was toppled, by 47 to 32. Sounds like they weren't afraid to release poll numbers in that part of the country.

Here, we have Massoud Barzani, leader of the other (KDP-controlled) Kurdistan, saying "We are not in favor of a war." How many Kurds does he represent? Well, none, I suppose, since, he was, according to the PUK, just a Saddam flunkie. Or looked at another way, he represents a majority -- 1.8M Iraqi Kurds to the PUK's 1.2, according to one source with no obvious bias.

The PUK, solidly lined up for an American invasion? here, in Aug 2000, we have a PUK leader Jalal Talabani saying a U.S. intervention is undesirable. Here, in Jan 2001, we have "Talabani found Bush harsh".

Talabani has always, of course, been an implacable foe of Saddam Hussein, so there's no problem of him being a legitimate representative. Except, oops, in 1991, when Saddam thanked him personally for his patriotism in the Gulf War.

So, Michael, I guess you're right: there was one "leader" of the Iraqi Kurds who appeared to endorse regime change by violent means if that's what it took (the Salon interview seemed a little ambiguous about that, but OK.) Still, what I see is not legitimate leaders, but guys who swim with the tide, whether that tide is directed from the White House, or Saddam Hussein, whoever happens to have more sway at the time.

Michael Turner,

What's your point? Do you actually believe the Kurds are anti-American and wish the liberation didn't happen? Is that your position? Please clarify it for us.

I think their long-term opinion will hinge on the nature of the Turkish contribution to the effort.

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