June 19, 2010
The Return of the Ottomans
Go read Lee Smith's
Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 19, 2010 12:54 AM
Comments
Jesus Totten, it's 1AM! But yeah, I'll read it.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at June 19, 2010 1:29 am
"But this may well turn out, eventually anyway, to be a revival of the historic rivalry between the Turks and the Persians."
I am trying to figure out if this is bad for the West. Is it?
Posted by: Joe at June 19, 2010 2:48 am
I am trying to figure out if this is bad for the West. Is it?
I still think this could all be averted if the Turks are just encouraged to pack up their shit and relocate to Central Asia where they came from. Their "right" to illegally occupy other people's land should have been decisively revoked at the end of World War I.
Turks, go back to Karakum! FREE FREE ANATOLIA!
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 3:06 am
Turks, go back to Karakum! FREE FREE ANATOLIA!
Joe,
"But this may well turn out, eventually anyway, to be a revival of the historic rivalry between the Turks and the Persians."
My understanding of history doesn't include any serious rivalry between the Turks and the Persians, but I'll assume there's some factual basis for that claim and proceed from there...
I am trying to figure out if this is bad for the West. Is it?
I don't see any way to characterize the resurgence of Islamism in Turkey as being "good" for the west. Any possible benefit of Turkey getting in a pissing contest with Iran is vastly outweighed by the dangers of having a militantly Islamist country right on Europe's doorstep (especially considering the history) and one that in a military alliance with the entire western world. That's an existential threat, which is something the IRI has never been and will likely never be.
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 3:43 am
"But this may well turn out, eventually anyway, to be a revival of the historic rivalry between the Turks and the Persians."
My understanding of history doesn't include any serious rivalry between the Turks and the Persians, but I'll assume there's some factual basis for that claim and proceed from there...
I am trying to figure out if this is bad for the West. Is it?
I don't see any way to characterize the resurgence of Islamism in Turkey as being "good" for the west. Any possible benefit of Turkey getting in a pissing contest with Iran is vastly outweighed by the dangers of having a militantly Islamist country right on Europe's doorstep (especially considering the history) and one that in a military alliance with the entire western world. That's an existential threat, which is something the IRI has never been and will likely never be.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10356679.stm
The irony is amazing. Where is the Flotilla to Kurdistan?
And the spike in violence reported in Afghanistan was predicted months ago. Look at the violence in Osh....The Muslims it seems can't help killing each other.......
I smell an Israeli plot...not.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 19, 2010 6:46 am
The irony is amazing. Where is the Flotilla to Kurdistan?
And the spike in violence reported in Afghanistan was predicted months ago. Look at the violence in Osh....The Muslims it seems can't help killing each other.......
I smell an Israeli plot...not.
My understanding of history doesn't include any serious rivalry between the Turks and the Persians ...
Then your knowledge of Middle Eastern history is seriously deficient. Once the Ottomans conquered Egypt, their only serious rivals in Islam were the Safavids of Iran. The fought over Iraq constantly. The rivalry continued under the successors of the Safavids.
Posted by: Lorenzo from Oz at June 19, 2010 7:50 am
Then your knowledge of Middle Eastern history is seriously deficient. Once the Ottomans conquered Egypt, their only serious rivals in Islam were the Safavids of Iran. The fought over Iraq constantly. The rivalry continued under the successors of the Safavids.
Good article. He said something that is key-- that the Turkey-Iran rivalry will radicalize middle East politics. I assume he means they will be falling over each other to prove which is the most anti-zionist. In which case it spells trouble for Israel.
Posted by: Carlos at June 19, 2010 7:55 am
I read that Lee Smith survey of that regional complexity with fascination and with confusion.
Fascination, because not even Eric Ambler or leCarre with the genealogical tables from the Hebrew Bible close to an elbow could come up with a more entangled cast of competing and shifting emphases and targets.
And confusion, because all of these evolving and competing murderous frictions defy easy peaceful solution. Confusion because I cannot see what possible lasting good can be expected from any further American involvement in that area.
Academia has the American University in Beirut, by most accounts a beacon. Aside from that piece of rather successful idealism, let's try and learn something from history, for a change, and get the (expletive) out of that area and watch serpent-like from offshore. We can then strike and spit more economically with our young lives and relentlessly vanishing treasure.
...."It’s not the Arab vacuum that Ankara is rushing to fill, but our own."....
That 'paste' towards the end of the article sums up my feelings of "let 'em have at it".
Dennis Ross's private thoughts would garner a Nobel for attempted peacemaking......we should learn from observing the kabuki motions he tried manfully to mediate, alas, to what end?
And we think our rotating naifs in our State Department can do anything other than award grants of American cash which end up in third-party accounts off-shore....waaaay off shore.
Let's get real, and get out.
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 19, 2010 10:48 am
Fascination, because not even Eric Ambler or leCarre with the genealogical tables from the Hebrew Bible close to an elbow could come up with a more entangled cast of competing and shifting emphases and targets.
And confusion, because all of these evolving and competing murderous frictions defy easy peaceful solution. Confusion because I cannot see what possible lasting good can be expected from any further American involvement in that area.
Academia has the American University in Beirut, by most accounts a beacon. Aside from that piece of rather successful idealism, let's try and learn something from history, for a change, and get the (expletive) out of that area and watch serpent-like from offshore. We can then strike and spit more economically with our young lives and relentlessly vanishing treasure.
...."It’s not the Arab vacuum that Ankara is rushing to fill, but our own."....
That 'paste' towards the end of the article sums up my feelings of "let 'em have at it".
Dennis Ross's private thoughts would garner a Nobel for attempted peacemaking......we should learn from observing the kabuki motions he tried manfully to mediate, alas, to what end?
And we think our rotating naifs in our State Department can do anything other than award grants of American cash which end up in third-party accounts off-shore....waaaay off shore.
Let's get real, and get out.
Good article. but where is Iraq and its oil about which the blog owner knows much.
If we remenber Iraq was the only local power that could do some thing to Iran. Iran will do any thing possible and few impossiblities to keep Iraq emasculated. Turky believe and so do I, the little nothing, that the oil of North Iraq was stolen from Turkey. It is a complicated story in which the USA sided with Turkey and both lost. Now Turkey is out to get that oil. It is oil, which is always more important than Jews and/or Arabs. The free Kurdish zone in Iraq (where some of the the oil is)will not last a month without Turkish help. So the fact is that Iraq which was a key Arab state was divided between Turkey and Iran and will never be anything in the foreseen future.
The fact that the arabs did nothing about it just shows you that they are realy good for nothing, the discussed article is 100% right on that point.
In the last five years Turkey went on a gigantic ag. project. She practically stole almost all the water of Iraq and Syria, think about Canada taking all the water that flow to the USA. The Arabsas as a group did nothing. Turkey payed the idiots by cursing the Jews, a good deal any way you look at it.
All that was agreed to by all Turks, army civilians, religious and secular. Now it is an historical fact that once Turkey liberated itself [ about 1920 ] from Arabic letters, Islam and funny rags on the heads of males and females it did very well for it self. No normal Turk will say anything good about Arabs, the useless traitors who sold them to England and France. Notice that now Erdighan is helping muslims in Gaza, not Arabs.
The problem in Turkey is Islam, Imperialism is second to it in the eye of most Turks. Turks were taught from grade school, basically, that Islam is not very good for their state. I think it was 100% true. Right now many Turks that I know do not like the Idea of becomming a muslim country, they think it is degrading and back ward move, I think they are 100% correct. I would say that the west could help these people, perhaps in not very democratic ways to do some thing about that. Not long time ago they made very good use of the hanging rope in solving such questions. Things would have been a little better if the President of a great country, a country always a real friend of the Turkish people who was never at war with Turkey and always helped Turkey in bad times would not have been so exited by Islam. But that is another subject for another day. Not all the problem rose from the European attitude toward Turkey and any how what Erdoghan is doing now will dont endear Turkey to Europe anyhow.
Posted by: Rani at June 19, 2010 10:55 am
If we remenber Iraq was the only local power that could do some thing to Iran. Iran will do any thing possible and few impossiblities to keep Iraq emasculated. Turky believe and so do I, the little nothing, that the oil of North Iraq was stolen from Turkey. It is a complicated story in which the USA sided with Turkey and both lost. Now Turkey is out to get that oil. It is oil, which is always more important than Jews and/or Arabs. The free Kurdish zone in Iraq (where some of the the oil is)will not last a month without Turkish help. So the fact is that Iraq which was a key Arab state was divided between Turkey and Iran and will never be anything in the foreseen future.
The fact that the arabs did nothing about it just shows you that they are realy good for nothing, the discussed article is 100% right on that point.
In the last five years Turkey went on a gigantic ag. project. She practically stole almost all the water of Iraq and Syria, think about Canada taking all the water that flow to the USA. The Arabsas as a group did nothing. Turkey payed the idiots by cursing the Jews, a good deal any way you look at it.
All that was agreed to by all Turks, army civilians, religious and secular. Now it is an historical fact that once Turkey liberated itself [ about 1920 ] from Arabic letters, Islam and funny rags on the heads of males and females it did very well for it self. No normal Turk will say anything good about Arabs, the useless traitors who sold them to England and France. Notice that now Erdighan is helping muslims in Gaza, not Arabs.
The problem in Turkey is Islam, Imperialism is second to it in the eye of most Turks. Turks were taught from grade school, basically, that Islam is not very good for their state. I think it was 100% true. Right now many Turks that I know do not like the Idea of becomming a muslim country, they think it is degrading and back ward move, I think they are 100% correct. I would say that the west could help these people, perhaps in not very democratic ways to do some thing about that. Not long time ago they made very good use of the hanging rope in solving such questions. Things would have been a little better if the President of a great country, a country always a real friend of the Turkish people who was never at war with Turkey and always helped Turkey in bad times would not have been so exited by Islam. But that is another subject for another day. Not all the problem rose from the European attitude toward Turkey and any how what Erdoghan is doing now will dont endear Turkey to Europe anyhow.
UN launches $71m appeal for Kyrgyzstan refugee crisis
"I have been shocked by the extent of the violence and appalled by the deaths and injuries, widespread arson, sexual violence, looting of state, commercial and private property and destruction of infrastructure," he said.
The UN Human Rights Council called on the Kyrgyz government to conduct a full and transparent investigation into the clashes.
So when it's Turks being Turks in the ancestral homeland of the Turks, they should investigate themselves? But when Israel lawfully defends itself from the aggression of Turks being Turks way the hell over on the Mediterranean where no Turk has any business living, it's all about calling for the "international community" to step in and investigate Israel?
Double standards much?
Hell, that doesn't even qualify as a double standard because as far as I can tell the perpetrator in the flotilla fiasco was Turkey and they aren't even being investigated for the aggressive provocation at all, whereas Israel is fully compliant with international laws and standards.
TURKEY, OUT OF NATO!
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 11:49 am
"I have been shocked by the extent of the violence and appalled by the deaths and injuries, widespread arson, sexual violence, looting of state, commercial and private property and destruction of infrastructure," he said.
The UN Human Rights Council called on the Kyrgyz government to conduct a full and transparent investigation into the clashes.
So when it's Turks being Turks in the ancestral homeland of the Turks, they should investigate themselves? But when Israel lawfully defends itself from the aggression of Turks being Turks way the hell over on the Mediterranean where no Turk has any business living, it's all about calling for the "international community" to step in and investigate Israel?
Double standards much?
Hell, that doesn't even qualify as a double standard because as far as I can tell the perpetrator in the flotilla fiasco was Turkey and they aren't even being investigated for the aggressive provocation at all, whereas Israel is fully compliant with international laws and standards.
TURKEY, OUT OF NATO!
From the same article:
Visiting a refugee camp in Uzbekistan, US Assistant Secretary of State Robert Blake said there must be an independent investigation into what had happened.
Eyewitnesses and victims have repeatedly said that the violence was orchestrated, and many have accused soldiers from the Kyrgyz military of being involved.
Interesting... US is at odds with the petty tyrants and corrupt dictators of the UN. Again.
MARG BAR TURKEY!
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 11:55 am
Visiting a refugee camp in Uzbekistan, US Assistant Secretary of State Robert Blake said there must be an independent investigation into what had happened.
Eyewitnesses and victims have repeatedly said that the violence was orchestrated, and many have accused soldiers from the Kyrgyz military of being involved.
Interesting... US is at odds with the petty tyrants and corrupt dictators of the UN. Again.
MARG BAR TURKEY!
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-bars-german-minister-from-gaza-1.297107
Well with Merkel under attack, watch the German Liberals and the right wing join forces....in a veiled threat sure to raise some eyebrows...
Germany is a key player in all this including Turkey. If the WH wants to advocate they have everything under control, then there's nothing to worry about, right? Okay.....lol.
As far as Iraq, both Turkey and Iran seem to be double teaming the Kurds. Almost 50 Turkish soldiers have died in the last couple of months and Iran crossed the border. The hypocrisy on this count is amazing and another media fumble, or should I say, intentional fumble...
Right now it appears they have some convergence here rather than rivalry.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 19, 2010 12:30 pm
Well with Merkel under attack, watch the German Liberals and the right wing join forces....in a veiled threat sure to raise some eyebrows...
Germany is a key player in all this including Turkey. If the WH wants to advocate they have everything under control, then there's nothing to worry about, right? Okay.....lol.
As far as Iraq, both Turkey and Iran seem to be double teaming the Kurds. Almost 50 Turkish soldiers have died in the last couple of months and Iran crossed the border. The hypocrisy on this count is amazing and another media fumble, or should I say, intentional fumble...
Right now it appears they have some convergence here rather than rivalry.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/19/opinion/19haykel.html?hp
Where does the NYT find these people?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 19, 2010 12:48 pm
Where does the NYT find these people?
Max, I'm waiting for the Swedish journalists to do an expose of Turkish doctors harvesting organs from Kurdish women and children. And when they are done with that, they can get started on the scandalous human trafficking and sex slavery of Kurdish women and children.
Unlike the case with Israel, there seems to be some merit to such charges against Turkey. What do you think is holding them back? I think even Swedes can learn how to use Google, right?
By the way, this story is cute:
Swedish Crown Princess Victoria weds gym owner
Sweden has celebrated a royal wedding between Crown Princess Victoria and her former fitness trainer.
What's all that stuff about "dumb swedes"? This was a brilliant PR move. Way to maintain that "royal" aura that's so important in these symbolic monarchies, Sweden! Next time she should marry some homeless guy she met at a Somali refugee camp in France.
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 12:48 pm
Unlike the case with Israel, there seems to be some merit to such charges against Turkey. What do you think is holding them back? I think even Swedes can learn how to use Google, right?
By the way, this story is cute:
Swedish Crown Princess Victoria weds gym owner
Sweden has celebrated a royal wedding between Crown Princess Victoria and her former fitness trainer.
What's all that stuff about "dumb swedes"? This was a brilliant PR move. Way to maintain that "royal" aura that's so important in these symbolic monarchies, Sweden! Next time she should marry some homeless guy she met at a Somali refugee camp in France.
From your article, Max:
While many Americans may feel betrayed by the behavior of their longtime allies in Ankara, Washington actually stands to gain indirectly if a newly muscular Turkey can adopt a leadership role in the Sunni Arab world, which has been eagerly looking for a better advocate of its causes than Shiite, authoritarian Iran or the inept and flaccid Arab regimes of the Persian Gulf.
That pretty much sums up the wishful thinking of the Obama Administration. So, there's your answer to: "Where does the NYT find these people?" :)
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 12:52 pm
While many Americans may feel betrayed by the behavior of their longtime allies in Ankara, Washington actually stands to gain indirectly if a newly muscular Turkey can adopt a leadership role in the Sunni Arab world, which has been eagerly looking for a better advocate of its causes than Shiite, authoritarian Iran or the inept and flaccid Arab regimes of the Persian Gulf.
That pretty much sums up the wishful thinking of the Obama Administration. So, there's your answer to: "Where does the NYT find these people?" :)
Lorenzo from Oz,
Then your knowledge of Middle Eastern history is seriously deficient. Once the Ottomans conquered Egypt, their only serious rivals in Islam were the Safavids of Iran. The fought over Iraq constantly. The rivalry continued under the successors of the Safavids.
The Safavids were Azeris and therefore they were also Turks, so that makes for a family dispute at most. I also note that Khamanei is an Azeri Turk.
Illegal Turkish occupiers and war criminals
Note the picture on the right-hand side :)
Blood is thicker than water, as they say. There is about as much chance of the west to use a rivalry between Turkey and Iran to its advantage today as there was during the 1st Crusade, in my estimation.
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 1:06 pm
Then your knowledge of Middle Eastern history is seriously deficient. Once the Ottomans conquered Egypt, their only serious rivals in Islam were the Safavids of Iran. The fought over Iraq constantly. The rivalry continued under the successors of the Safavids.
The Safavids were Azeris and therefore they were also Turks, so that makes for a family dispute at most. I also note that Khamanei is an Azeri Turk.
Illegal Turkish occupiers and war criminals
Note the picture on the right-hand side :)
Blood is thicker than water, as they say. There is about as much chance of the west to use a rivalry between Turkey and Iran to its advantage today as there was during the 1st Crusade, in my estimation.
Persia was originally a Sunni nation. It only went Shiite several centuries ago to maintain itself apart from the Ottoman Empire.
Posted by: Kyle at June 19, 2010 1:28 pm
When Obama gives Syria to the Turks, I'll believe he's trying to weaken Iran. It's pretty obvious that he's not trying to weaken Iran by throwing Israel over the side, though. He's trying to weaken Israel. Anyone who is trying to spin it differently is not being intellectually honest.
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 1:52 pm
Smith's article suggests that the Arabs are incapable of self-government. It is actually entertaining to me that the Arabs would suck up to the people who colonized then for 500 years. They must really hate the Persians in order to do that.
What's obvious to me, not only from Smith's article, but general knowledge about the Turks and their history, is that the Turks are trying to become a regional hegemony. Most of the Central Asian people are Turkmen (except for Tajikistan, who are mostly Persians). It does appear that the old Turk/Persian rivalry is coming back again.
This is not necessarily a bad development for the West or even Israel. The Isrealis, who are smarter about these things than the D.C. beltway crowd, can figure out a pay to play the Turks, Persians, and Arabs against each other to Israel's benefit.
I still think the Israelis should develop closer commercial ties with Russia, China, and India. Now that Israel id developing quite the technology export economy, they have a lot to offer the rest of the world.
Posted by: Abelard Lindsey at June 19, 2010 2:16 pm
What's obvious to me, not only from Smith's article, but general knowledge about the Turks and their history, is that the Turks are trying to become a regional hegemony. Most of the Central Asian people are Turkmen (except for Tajikistan, who are mostly Persians). It does appear that the old Turk/Persian rivalry is coming back again.
This is not necessarily a bad development for the West or even Israel. The Isrealis, who are smarter about these things than the D.C. beltway crowd, can figure out a pay to play the Turks, Persians, and Arabs against each other to Israel's benefit.
I still think the Israelis should develop closer commercial ties with Russia, China, and India. Now that Israel id developing quite the technology export economy, they have a lot to offer the rest of the world.
Qajar Dynasty, rulers of Persia from 1794 to 1925
More Iranian turks up there.
I don't think Persia has been under Persian rule since Yazdegerd III, which was more than 1300 years ago. That was long before the Turks arrived on the scene, so where's the rivalry? The historic rivalry was between competing Turkish clans.
The new rivalry - if any exists - does not have any basis in history as far as I can tell.
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 2:39 pm
More Iranian turks up there.
I don't think Persia has been under Persian rule since Yazdegerd III, which was more than 1300 years ago. That was long before the Turks arrived on the scene, so where's the rivalry? The historic rivalry was between competing Turkish clans.
The new rivalry - if any exists - does not have any basis in history as far as I can tell.
Getting back to Erdogan -- I read a while back that he, like his Venezuelan counterpart, has been closing down newspapers that are critical of him. Does anyone know anything more?
Posted by: Harold at June 19, 2010 3:08 pm
My Goodness, Rani, with all of the additional complexity you've added here to my thoughts that this area we quaintly call the Levant is nothing but a revolving wire cage with squirrels, tom cats, and vipers, all biting, hissing, and running at each other, and simultaneously away from each other.....
......how can anyone believe that this Athenian/Jeffersonian/Rooseveltian/Bushy idea of Democracy can possible have any lasting effect amidst all of those dunes? ...by lasting I mean mere decades, not even centuries, of amity and civilized discourse (maybe I should have spelt that "civilised") enacting ACLU-approved "Rights" in an amphitheatre of stone seats and marvelous ringing Churchillian oratory? That's an absurdity amidst all of that aridity.
I find a bit of sad humor (humour) that you've even added the "oil" word and the "water" word to this mix. Mixing those? I've deliberately and ostentatiously omitted the "T-" word here.
Summing up, aside from remotely controlled drones plus exquisitely trained special forces utilizing nuanced language dialects to sew even more suspicion and hostility to keep those nasties at each others' throats, not ours, we Americans are spinning our wheels trying to bend these factions towards a western concept of "peace".
Pace Kipling.
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 19, 2010 3:12 pm
......how can anyone believe that this Athenian/Jeffersonian/Rooseveltian/Bushy idea of Democracy can possible have any lasting effect amidst all of those dunes? ...by lasting I mean mere decades, not even centuries, of amity and civilized discourse (maybe I should have spelt that "civilised") enacting ACLU-approved "Rights" in an amphitheatre of stone seats and marvelous ringing Churchillian oratory? That's an absurdity amidst all of that aridity.
I find a bit of sad humor (humour) that you've even added the "oil" word and the "water" word to this mix. Mixing those? I've deliberately and ostentatiously omitted the "T-" word here.
Summing up, aside from remotely controlled drones plus exquisitely trained special forces utilizing nuanced language dialects to sew even more suspicion and hostility to keep those nasties at each others' throats, not ours, we Americans are spinning our wheels trying to bend these factions towards a western concept of "peace".
Pace Kipling.
P.S...
For a rhythmic, romantic, horseback ride, re-read Kipling's "The Ballad Of East And West".
..."There was rock to the left and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,....
....go ahead, it's right there in Google....
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 19, 2010 3:37 pm
For a rhythmic, romantic, horseback ride, re-read Kipling's "The Ballad Of East And West".
..."There was rock to the left and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,....
....go ahead, it's right there in Google....
Armenian Genocide
The Return of the Ottomans? The Ottomans ought to return to the continent they came from. I think Helen Thomas would agree with me.
By the way, any word on when Obama is planning on returning Helen Thomas and her family to Lebanon?
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 4:28 pm
The Return of the Ottomans? The Ottomans ought to return to the continent they came from. I think Helen Thomas would agree with me.
By the way, any word on when Obama is planning on returning Helen Thomas and her family to Lebanon?
Well, as she said, she's of Arab decent...
http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_15334381?nclick_check=1
Some observations from the Middle/Left.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 19, 2010 5:09 pm
http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_15334381?nclick_check=1
Some observations from the Middle/Left.....
http://arabnews.com/opinion/editorial/article69188.ece
Interesting Arab view on Turkey and the "resistance".....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 19, 2010 5:17 pm
Interesting Arab view on Turkey and the "resistance".....
Maxtrue, all those questions that Turks asked Thomas Friedman in your article can be answered best by relocating Turks to someplace they'd fit in better, such as Siberia.
Although, I suppose if ethnic turks wanted to remain in Anatolia I suppose that should be allowed as long as they convert to Christianity and promise to not do the whole genocide thing any more.
World War One should not have ended while Muslim Turks were still occupying Christian European land. It took 600 years for Europe to beat the dogshit out of the Ottomans, and it's a shame they foolishly declined to finish the job and expel them. The world would be a better place today if they had. There's plenty of room for Turks in their ancestral homelands. They have no God-given right to be occupying Europe, or even anywhere near Europe. Especially considering the horrific atrocities they have perpetrated on the indigenous inhabitants over the centuries.
Posted by: Craig at June 19, 2010 5:23 pm
Although, I suppose if ethnic turks wanted to remain in Anatolia I suppose that should be allowed as long as they convert to Christianity and promise to not do the whole genocide thing any more.
World War One should not have ended while Muslim Turks were still occupying Christian European land. It took 600 years for Europe to beat the dogshit out of the Ottomans, and it's a shame they foolishly declined to finish the job and expel them. The world would be a better place today if they had. There's plenty of room for Turks in their ancestral homelands. They have no God-given right to be occupying Europe, or even anywhere near Europe. Especially considering the horrific atrocities they have perpetrated on the indigenous inhabitants over the centuries.
All of the commenters here need to drop everything, and first go back and start out with this subject of the Europeans and Ottomans in the 20th cent. remedial 101 by reading T.E.Lawrence's "Seven Pillars Of Wisdom". Read all of it. Read about T.E. Lawrence as an individual for even better perspective.
Do not bother with Peter O'Toole's and David Lean's gorgeous cinematic scenes.....that's all they really are.....gorgeous scenes on a screen. The reality was very,very nasty and treacherous.
Also suggested reading on this complicated subject is:
...."The Arabists: The Romance of an American Elite" by Robert D. Kaplan"
New York: Free Press, 1993, Reviewed by Daniel Pipes.
----------
Then, resume your comments.
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 19, 2010 6:19 pm
Do not bother with Peter O'Toole's and David Lean's gorgeous cinematic scenes.....that's all they really are.....gorgeous scenes on a screen. The reality was very,very nasty and treacherous.
Also suggested reading on this complicated subject is:
...."The Arabists: The Romance of an American Elite" by Robert D. Kaplan"
New York: Free Press, 1993, Reviewed by Daniel Pipes.
----------
Then, resume your comments.
Craig, that is certainly is the starting gate negotiating position. We can argue the practicality of your relocation back in 1919, but to have given up that position long ago was foolish. Instead Turks and Russians "relocated" people as Gurdjeiff mentioned in his Meetings with Remarkable Men. Hitler brought this game to a new level. Your suggestion certainly seems the base line of Turkey's counter-narrative. Ours, the Indians....
I suppose the pro-Western "secularism" of the modern Turkish State was the path taken, not "relocation". Turkish forces never fought in WW2, but they didn't side with the Germans and wanted no part of Stalinism. I'm not sure the West could have enforced your view after the Great Flu and the mess that lead to WW2. Still, I think today's "champion" of the Sunni/Palestinian cause should be reminded of such brutal logic.
Let's be real however. Eisenhower put his eggs in the Arab basket after Truman celebrated Israel. Ike thought he had set the stage and was not thrilled with an "Israel". He approved the coup in Iran to check the Shia and held sway over Turkey. He was the one that signed to orders to put Jupiters in Turkey. His administration thought Sunnis would be the strategic partner. Kennedy campaigned on the promise to prevent the Jupiters and told Congress on day one to block Eisenhower's 11th hour "understanding" with Turkey. He was shocked during the lead up to the Cuban Missile Crisis Congress had sent them. A few nearly launched after being activated by lightening strikes. Turkey certainly wanted this side of the Iron Curtain and kept close to US hegemony. They played the European card and enjoyed more prosperity than the street Arab. With the fall of the Soviets and the stupidity if the Sunnis, an opportunity was cast...
So no, I don't think calling for Turks to leave Turkey is realistic, but I understand uttering it relative to Erodgan's whispered drivel regarding Israel, the Kurds, the Sunnis, the Armenians, the Greeks, the Russians. Israel's inhabitants at least having far more claim to it and ME areas they were expelled from than the Turks have of Anatolia (one of the exceptions ironically, the Kurds).
Friedman as usual is trying to reconcile 20th century liberalism in regard to foreign policy with what he must be reading in the "progressive Press" and the events he sees in the world. His comments are useful triangulations in the deconstruction of the present narrative. Or at least until he switches his position. He is more helpful than Brooks or Sullivan.
Again, the irony of the USS Truman sailing through the Suez on the way to the Gulf. A bit symbolic. Now where is the USS Eisenhower? It's being replaced by the USS Truman in July...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dwight_D._Eisenhower_%28CVN-69%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Harry_S._Truman_%28CVN-75%29
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 19, 2010 8:20 pm
I suppose the pro-Western "secularism" of the modern Turkish State was the path taken, not "relocation". Turkish forces never fought in WW2, but they didn't side with the Germans and wanted no part of Stalinism. I'm not sure the West could have enforced your view after the Great Flu and the mess that lead to WW2. Still, I think today's "champion" of the Sunni/Palestinian cause should be reminded of such brutal logic.
Let's be real however. Eisenhower put his eggs in the Arab basket after Truman celebrated Israel. Ike thought he had set the stage and was not thrilled with an "Israel". He approved the coup in Iran to check the Shia and held sway over Turkey. He was the one that signed to orders to put Jupiters in Turkey. His administration thought Sunnis would be the strategic partner. Kennedy campaigned on the promise to prevent the Jupiters and told Congress on day one to block Eisenhower's 11th hour "understanding" with Turkey. He was shocked during the lead up to the Cuban Missile Crisis Congress had sent them. A few nearly launched after being activated by lightening strikes. Turkey certainly wanted this side of the Iron Curtain and kept close to US hegemony. They played the European card and enjoyed more prosperity than the street Arab. With the fall of the Soviets and the stupidity if the Sunnis, an opportunity was cast...
So no, I don't think calling for Turks to leave Turkey is realistic, but I understand uttering it relative to Erodgan's whispered drivel regarding Israel, the Kurds, the Sunnis, the Armenians, the Greeks, the Russians. Israel's inhabitants at least having far more claim to it and ME areas they were expelled from than the Turks have of Anatolia (one of the exceptions ironically, the Kurds).
Friedman as usual is trying to reconcile 20th century liberalism in regard to foreign policy with what he must be reading in the "progressive Press" and the events he sees in the world. His comments are useful triangulations in the deconstruction of the present narrative. Or at least until he switches his position. He is more helpful than Brooks or Sullivan.
Again, the irony of the USS Truman sailing through the Suez on the way to the Gulf. A bit symbolic. Now where is the USS Eisenhower? It's being replaced by the USS Truman in July...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dwight_D._Eisenhower_%28CVN-69%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Harry_S._Truman_%28CVN-75%29
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178934
More navy ships moving towards Iran. Will the Nobel Peace Prize winner strike?
Posted by: Joe at June 20, 2010 2:19 am
More navy ships moving towards Iran. Will the Nobel Peace Prize winner strike?
I'm certainly not an expert, but I don't see history providing any kind of a guide as to what's going to happen going forward. Certain assumptions, such as the shia/sunni divide may be correct, but also may not be, particularly with a common enemy in Israel and the west in general. For the moment, Erdogan and Ahmedinijad seem like best buddies, I don't see any "shot across the bow" between them. This seems like wishful thinking to me. Erdogan seems like an ego-driven megalomaniac, and hopefully his new friends will start to step on his toes and cause rifts in their new alliance.
Posted by: MarkC at June 20, 2010 2:51 am
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907387,00.html
I believe an 1888 treaty permits warships of all nations safe passage through the Suez which begs the question as to why Israel had problems until Sunnis saw Iran as a bigger threat.....
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-lebanon-forbids-launch-of-gaza-bound-flotilla-1.297194 I wouldn't count on that.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 6:01 am
I believe an 1888 treaty permits warships of all nations safe passage through the Suez which begs the question as to why Israel had problems until Sunnis saw Iran as a bigger threat.....
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-lebanon-forbids-launch-of-gaza-bound-flotilla-1.297194 I wouldn't count on that.....
"Erdogan seems like an ego-driven megalomaniac, and hopefully his new friends will start to step on his toes and cause rifts in their new alliance."
Chavez and Mugabe are ego-driven megalomaniacs too, but they are great pals with Ahmedinejad.
Posted by: Don Cox at June 20, 2010 6:55 am
Chavez and Mugabe are ego-driven megalomaniacs too, but they are great pals with Ahmedinejad.
MarkC at 2:51
QUOTE: "I'm certainly not an expert, but I don't see history providing any kind of a guide as to what's going to happen going forward. ... For the moment, Erdogan and Ahmedinijad seem like best buddies, I don't see any "shot across the bow"
Exactly what I was thinking.
On what grounds does the author (and the Saudi he quotes) conclude any rivalry at the moment between Turkey and Iran? Have I missed something?
I can see that the Saudi and other Arabs may WISH it was so, but is it in reality?
Posted by: Anat at June 20, 2010 8:11 am
QUOTE: "I'm certainly not an expert, but I don't see history providing any kind of a guide as to what's going to happen going forward. ... For the moment, Erdogan and Ahmedinijad seem like best buddies, I don't see any "shot across the bow"
Exactly what I was thinking.
On what grounds does the author (and the Saudi he quotes) conclude any rivalry at the moment between Turkey and Iran? Have I missed something?
I can see that the Saudi and other Arabs may WISH it was so, but is it in reality?
Don Cox: Chavez and Mugabe are ego-driven megalomaniacs too, but they are great pals with Ahmedinejad.
But those two dictators aren't ruling over a regional rival and historic antagonist. Stalin and Hitler were pals for a while, too, and that didn't end so well for either of them.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 20, 2010 9:31 am
But those two dictators aren't ruling over a regional rival and historic antagonist. Stalin and Hitler were pals for a while, too, and that didn't end so well for either of them.
“For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them; in that they hindered many from Allah’s Way; that they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully; we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.” (4:160-161) Koran
Kinda puts the blockade in perspective....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 9:49 am
Kinda puts the blockade in perspective....
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/20/gates-ready-talk-containing-nuclear-iran/
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 9:53 am
Maxtrue: Kinda puts the blockade in perspective....
Here's some more perspective from Hamas:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907851,00.html
May this guy's car accidentally run into a Hellfire missile.
.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 20, 2010 9:59 am
Here's some more perspective from Hamas:
Mahmoud al-Zahar on Sunday urged the Palestinian Authority to instruct its staff to stop pursuing terror organizations and allow them to fire rockets at Israel from the West Bank.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907851,00.html
May this guy's car accidentally run into a Hellfire missile.
.
Max,
Your suggestion certainly seems the base line of Turkey's counter-narrative.
Baseline? lol
Redrawing of borders and transfer of populations(voluntary or otherwise) has been the norm in Europe since the beginning of the historical record - and before, I'm sure - and that continued throughout the 20th century, and will likely continue going into the future in coming conflicts. If Europeans are comfortable with declaring European states null and void and with moving populations off of the land where they've been living, why should non-European invaders and occupiers be exempt from the same treatment? It makes no sense.
As far as I know, there are 3 cases of non-Europeans invading Europe and setting up invader states on occupied land.
1) The huns. They fell apart and were driven out shortly after the death of Attila. There DNA remains, but there is no trace of their culture in Eastern Europe.
2) The Arabs. Driven out of Spain and/or forced to convert to Christianity in 1492. Their DNA remains and there are some traces of their culture remaining, but mostly only in regards to architecture.
3) The Turks. The worst of the lot. They tried to conquer all of Europe, on numerous occasions. Their depredations on the indigenous populations that were under their control are infamous and well documented, and persisted for centuries dating back to when they first entered European territory almost 1000 years ago right up until the Armenian genocide in the 20th century. Not only does their DNA remain, but they have stamped out one of the most advanced civilizations in Europe, they have destroyed the center of Eastern Christianity, they have imposed a foreign religion on the inhabitants of land under Turkish control against their will, they have imposed state sponsored slavery, rape, murder and every other possible crime known to man. And so on.
I find it baffling that the Europeans have allowed the Turks to remain in control of European land, under these circumstances. Particularly considering it took so many centuries to cause the collapse of the Ottoman empire, and cost so many lives.
I suppose the pro-Western "secularism" of the modern Turkish State was the path taken, not "relocation".
It was obviously the wrong path. It took less than 100 years for the Turks to revert to type. Does this mean that sometime in the next few decades we can expect the Germans to start acting like Germans, again? Wonderful. Well, when that happens I hope somebody is smart enough to turn the Germans loose on the Turks. Maybe we can fix both problems at once.
Let's be real however. Eisenhower put his eggs in the Arab basket after Truman celebrated Israel.
Yes, well, many people were naive about the middle-east, post World War II. There may not be much that can be done about Arabs in Arab lands, but it's not too late to get Turks out of Europe, where they clearly don't belong and have never belonged. Hopefully we can get that done when the next global conflict starts. Turkey is obviously going to be aligned with the assholes again (as they always are) so we - the non-assholes - will have a good opportunity to give them the boot once and for all and liberate Anatolia from its long passage through darkness.
Posted by: Craig at June 20, 2010 11:11 am
Your suggestion certainly seems the base line of Turkey's counter-narrative.
Baseline? lol
Redrawing of borders and transfer of populations(voluntary or otherwise) has been the norm in Europe since the beginning of the historical record - and before, I'm sure - and that continued throughout the 20th century, and will likely continue going into the future in coming conflicts. If Europeans are comfortable with declaring European states null and void and with moving populations off of the land where they've been living, why should non-European invaders and occupiers be exempt from the same treatment? It makes no sense.
As far as I know, there are 3 cases of non-Europeans invading Europe and setting up invader states on occupied land.
1) The huns. They fell apart and were driven out shortly after the death of Attila. There DNA remains, but there is no trace of their culture in Eastern Europe.
2) The Arabs. Driven out of Spain and/or forced to convert to Christianity in 1492. Their DNA remains and there are some traces of their culture remaining, but mostly only in regards to architecture.
3) The Turks. The worst of the lot. They tried to conquer all of Europe, on numerous occasions. Their depredations on the indigenous populations that were under their control are infamous and well documented, and persisted for centuries dating back to when they first entered European territory almost 1000 years ago right up until the Armenian genocide in the 20th century. Not only does their DNA remain, but they have stamped out one of the most advanced civilizations in Europe, they have destroyed the center of Eastern Christianity, they have imposed a foreign religion on the inhabitants of land under Turkish control against their will, they have imposed state sponsored slavery, rape, murder and every other possible crime known to man. And so on.
I find it baffling that the Europeans have allowed the Turks to remain in control of European land, under these circumstances. Particularly considering it took so many centuries to cause the collapse of the Ottoman empire, and cost so many lives.
I suppose the pro-Western "secularism" of the modern Turkish State was the path taken, not "relocation".
It was obviously the wrong path. It took less than 100 years for the Turks to revert to type. Does this mean that sometime in the next few decades we can expect the Germans to start acting like Germans, again? Wonderful. Well, when that happens I hope somebody is smart enough to turn the Germans loose on the Turks. Maybe we can fix both problems at once.
Let's be real however. Eisenhower put his eggs in the Arab basket after Truman celebrated Israel.
Yes, well, many people were naive about the middle-east, post World War II. There may not be much that can be done about Arabs in Arab lands, but it's not too late to get Turks out of Europe, where they clearly don't belong and have never belonged. Hopefully we can get that done when the next global conflict starts. Turkey is obviously going to be aligned with the assholes again (as they always are) so we - the non-assholes - will have a good opportunity to give them the boot once and for all and liberate Anatolia from its long passage through darkness.
By the way, Max, Anatolia was the birthplace of Christianity as a religion, and the Armenians were the first to adopt Christianity as a people. I personally find it hugely offensive that Muslim Turks have obliterated Christianity in it's place of origin, and have attempted to annihilate the oldest Christian community on the planet.
President Obama: "Actions do have consequences"
I hope you can start walking it the way you talk it sometime soon, Mister president.
Posted by: Craig at June 20, 2010 11:29 am
President Obama: "Actions do have consequences"
I hope you can start walking it the way you talk it sometime soon, Mister president.
"I hope you can start walking it the way you talk it sometime soon, Mister president."
Right, just as soon as he "kicks some ass" wearing his mom jeans LOL.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 20, 2010 11:49 am
Right, just as soon as he "kicks some ass" wearing his mom jeans LOL.
BBC: Genocider threatens genocide
Turkey has vowed to fight Kurdish rebels until they are "annihilated", after attacks killed 11 soldiers.
I think the west and the entire world should be very alarmed when an Islamist leader of an unapologetic genocide-committing state like Turkey threatens to annihilate "rebels" of an ethnic minority. That's exactly the smirking language they used when they committed genocide on the Armenians.
Best for the Turks to just stop occupying other people's land and go back to where they came from. That's the only way this story is going to end well. They should start petitioning the UN for the creation of a new Turkish state somewhere in Central Asia. Lord knows, there's plenty of land to spare in that region. I support the people of Anatolia - the ones who actually come from there at least - but the "Turkish" entity has no right to exist. Not in that location, at any rate.
Posted by: Craig at June 20, 2010 1:20 pm
Turkey has vowed to fight Kurdish rebels until they are "annihilated", after attacks killed 11 soldiers.
I think the west and the entire world should be very alarmed when an Islamist leader of an unapologetic genocide-committing state like Turkey threatens to annihilate "rebels" of an ethnic minority. That's exactly the smirking language they used when they committed genocide on the Armenians.
Best for the Turks to just stop occupying other people's land and go back to where they came from. That's the only way this story is going to end well. They should start petitioning the UN for the creation of a new Turkish state somewhere in Central Asia. Lord knows, there's plenty of land to spare in that region. I support the people of Anatolia - the ones who actually come from there at least - but the "Turkish" entity has no right to exist. Not in that location, at any rate.
Syria's Bashar al-Assad: A leader who cannot be ignore
A Syrian leader pivotal to regional war and peace...
Why would anyone characterize Assad that way? He's a hardliner who has never made any sincere move towards peace, and has always chosen the most aggressively hostile actions towards Israel, the West, Lebanon and anyone else he perceives as an enemy. He's a known quantity, and a can be relied upon to be a bad-actor in any sort of peace process.
What's the deal with people trying to redefine - by decree, apparently - the "peace" credentials of foreign leaders? Erdogan sends Turkish shahids to break an Israeli blockade and we call that a humanitarian effort? Assad fucks over Lebanon and Iraq and actively sponsors every terror group he can gain influence with - Sunni and Shiite both - and we call him a pivotal player in the "peace process"? What the hell? I suppose next we'll be printing textbooks that portray Hitler as a Gandhi-like figure and Stalin as somebody who took in refugees and engaged in altruistic nation-building projects? Oh, and I guess Mussolini, Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein were just well intentioned men who deeply cared about their countries, right?
I gotta say, I don't like this New World Order much. The old one was better.
Posted by: Craig at June 20, 2010 1:55 pm
A Syrian leader pivotal to regional war and peace...
Why would anyone characterize Assad that way? He's a hardliner who has never made any sincere move towards peace, and has always chosen the most aggressively hostile actions towards Israel, the West, Lebanon and anyone else he perceives as an enemy. He's a known quantity, and a can be relied upon to be a bad-actor in any sort of peace process.
What's the deal with people trying to redefine - by decree, apparently - the "peace" credentials of foreign leaders? Erdogan sends Turkish shahids to break an Israeli blockade and we call that a humanitarian effort? Assad fucks over Lebanon and Iraq and actively sponsors every terror group he can gain influence with - Sunni and Shiite both - and we call him a pivotal player in the "peace process"? What the hell? I suppose next we'll be printing textbooks that portray Hitler as a Gandhi-like figure and Stalin as somebody who took in refugees and engaged in altruistic nation-building projects? Oh, and I guess Mussolini, Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein were just well intentioned men who deeply cared about their countries, right?
I gotta say, I don't like this New World Order much. The old one was better.
Wow, Craig, you have a ferocious hatred of the Turks. Are you Armenian? Your posts are almost always well reasoned, but in this instance it seems like emotions are trumping reason.
While I agree with you that the history of the Ottoman's was, to put it lightly, very disagreeable in many respects, the idea of removing Turks from Anatolia seems like crazy talk, even assuming that your assertion that they are foreign interlopers is true.
And I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. My readings on the subject indicate that Turkish identity (I'm talking about Anatolian Turkey, not Turkic identity in Central Asia) is actually quite complicated. Turks are a polyglot, genetically mixed people, as is evident in the way they look. The original Turkic tribes came from Altai mountains, and even further east, and had 'Mongolian' features. Such features are hardly evident in the faces of modern Turks. It's clear that many of the indigenous Anatolians became "Turkified" culturally in much the same way that has occurred many times in history throughout the world. Who knows how many Kurds or Armenians or others converted to Islam and adopted Turkish, thus over time becoming what we now identify as Turks? Many Turks are descended from European Muslims that fled to Turkey, for various reasons at various times, for example from Bosnia, parts of Greece, Albania, and Bulgaria. Kemal Mustafa Ataturk was from Solonika in Greece.
What we have here is a very genetically, ethnically complex people called Turks.
What I do agree with you is that indeed the Turkish language is an import--nobody can deny that. And there are some aspects of Turkish culture that hark back to the original Turks' Central Asian roots. But Turks are also a very Mediterranean people in the sense that many Mediterraneans share certain cultural traits be they Israelis, Lebanese, Greeks, Sicilians, etc.
So, my point is that Turks, by and large and for all practical purposes are rooted in the soil of Anatolia.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 20, 2010 5:14 pm
While I agree with you that the history of the Ottoman's was, to put it lightly, very disagreeable in many respects, the idea of removing Turks from Anatolia seems like crazy talk, even assuming that your assertion that they are foreign interlopers is true.
And I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. My readings on the subject indicate that Turkish identity (I'm talking about Anatolian Turkey, not Turkic identity in Central Asia) is actually quite complicated. Turks are a polyglot, genetically mixed people, as is evident in the way they look. The original Turkic tribes came from Altai mountains, and even further east, and had 'Mongolian' features. Such features are hardly evident in the faces of modern Turks. It's clear that many of the indigenous Anatolians became "Turkified" culturally in much the same way that has occurred many times in history throughout the world. Who knows how many Kurds or Armenians or others converted to Islam and adopted Turkish, thus over time becoming what we now identify as Turks? Many Turks are descended from European Muslims that fled to Turkey, for various reasons at various times, for example from Bosnia, parts of Greece, Albania, and Bulgaria. Kemal Mustafa Ataturk was from Solonika in Greece.
What we have here is a very genetically, ethnically complex people called Turks.
What I do agree with you is that indeed the Turkish language is an import--nobody can deny that. And there are some aspects of Turkish culture that hark back to the original Turks' Central Asian roots. But Turks are also a very Mediterranean people in the sense that many Mediterraneans share certain cultural traits be they Israelis, Lebanese, Greeks, Sicilians, etc.
So, my point is that Turks, by and large and for all practical purposes are rooted in the soil of Anatolia.
Craig,
Countries like Syria create all sorts of trouble precisely to justify their 'importance.' They're saying in effect, "You want calm in(enter location), then give us what we want and we'll calm things down." This is transparently clear. What's not clear is why we in the West fall for the ruse.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 20, 2010 5:18 pm
Countries like Syria create all sorts of trouble precisely to justify their 'importance.' They're saying in effect, "You want calm in(enter location), then give us what we want and we'll calm things down." This is transparently clear. What's not clear is why we in the West fall for the ruse.
S-5000,
Wow, Craig, you have a ferocious hatred of the Turks.
No more than I hate other crazy and violent extremists. Wait... actually, a little more. I'll treat them the same way I treat the Taliban when they are no longer occupying Europe and when they are no longer in a military alliance with the West.
Why? Do you think only Islamists have a right to express their hate and contempt for others? Haven't we had enough "mister nice guy" out of the west? Isn't it time for "mister if you don't straighten up and fly right I'll kill your ass"?
Are you Armenian?
Nope. Nor am I Jewish. Is that a requirement for objecting to countries which commit genocide and threaten to do it again?
While I agree with you that the history of the Ottoman's was, to put it lightly, very disagreeable in many respects, the idea of removing Turks from Anatolia seems like crazy talk, even assuming that your assertion that they are foreign interlopers is true.
Why is it crazy talk? Europeans have been doing that for 2000 years, and will do it more in the future. If they need help getting Turkey nullified as a country, I think the US should volunteer to help with that. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
And I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. My readings on the subject indicate that Turkish identity (I'm talking about Anatolian Turkey, not Turkic identity in Central Asia) is actually quite complicated. Turks are a polyglot, genetically mixed people, as is evident in the way they look.
Of course they are. That's because the Turkish soldiers who invaded raped the hell out of all the local women, took tens of thousands more as slaves, forcibly converted the locals to Islam and so on and so forth.
In other words, same thing the Arabs did in the middle-east.
The original Turkic tribes came from Altai mountains, and even further east, and had 'Mongolian' features.
OK, fine. How about instead of genetic analysis, everyone who is willing to sign a document saying they are not now and never have been ethnically "Turkish" can stay?
What we have here is a very genetically, ethnically complex people called Turks.
It's the foreign culture that must go, not necessarily the people.
What I do agree with you is that indeed the Turkish language is an import--nobody can deny that.
There isn't anything at all about Modern Turkey that resembles the culture that was there before the Turks invaded.
So, my point is that Turks, by and large and for all practical purposes are rooted in the soil of Anatolia.
What is rooted can be uprooted. The Spaniards pulled it off after having been occupied by Arabs for 700 years. The Turks haven't been in Anatolia that long.
Posted by: Craig at June 20, 2010 6:42 pm
Wow, Craig, you have a ferocious hatred of the Turks.
No more than I hate other crazy and violent extremists. Wait... actually, a little more. I'll treat them the same way I treat the Taliban when they are no longer occupying Europe and when they are no longer in a military alliance with the West.
Why? Do you think only Islamists have a right to express their hate and contempt for others? Haven't we had enough "mister nice guy" out of the west? Isn't it time for "mister if you don't straighten up and fly right I'll kill your ass"?
Are you Armenian?
Nope. Nor am I Jewish. Is that a requirement for objecting to countries which commit genocide and threaten to do it again?
While I agree with you that the history of the Ottoman's was, to put it lightly, very disagreeable in many respects, the idea of removing Turks from Anatolia seems like crazy talk, even assuming that your assertion that they are foreign interlopers is true.
Why is it crazy talk? Europeans have been doing that for 2000 years, and will do it more in the future. If they need help getting Turkey nullified as a country, I think the US should volunteer to help with that. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
And I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. My readings on the subject indicate that Turkish identity (I'm talking about Anatolian Turkey, not Turkic identity in Central Asia) is actually quite complicated. Turks are a polyglot, genetically mixed people, as is evident in the way they look.
Of course they are. That's because the Turkish soldiers who invaded raped the hell out of all the local women, took tens of thousands more as slaves, forcibly converted the locals to Islam and so on and so forth.
In other words, same thing the Arabs did in the middle-east.
The original Turkic tribes came from Altai mountains, and even further east, and had 'Mongolian' features.
OK, fine. How about instead of genetic analysis, everyone who is willing to sign a document saying they are not now and never have been ethnically "Turkish" can stay?
What we have here is a very genetically, ethnically complex people called Turks.
It's the foreign culture that must go, not necessarily the people.
What I do agree with you is that indeed the Turkish language is an import--nobody can deny that.
There isn't anything at all about Modern Turkey that resembles the culture that was there before the Turks invaded.
So, my point is that Turks, by and large and for all practical purposes are rooted in the soil of Anatolia.
What is rooted can be uprooted. The Spaniards pulled it off after having been occupied by Arabs for 700 years. The Turks haven't been in Anatolia that long.
Hell, I won't stop Craig. He's on a roll.
Christianity really began in Anatolia as he says and he's dishing it out just like Erdogan. What he's doing is putting out a more rational argument than the Turks or Iranians, turning their bullshit logic against them. Revise history? Craig isn't revising history. Frankly, I can understand. While I don't think his plan very likely, I want Turks to understand how friggin pissed off Americans ought to feel. Craig isn't Jewish and has no religious horse in this race. I do assume his libertarian view of religion and State....
The US and England kept the Soviets out of Iran and Turkey. Some thanks we're getting. I'm beginning that was a mistake as Stalin would have toasted the radical clerics and after the fall, these two would be much more on the way to secularism. Would Stalin's control have changed the course of the Cold War? Not based on the reasoning of many Liberals.........
By the way, Israel is playing the blockade about right. Now flotillas are more exposed for the provocation they are and it gives the WH more room to support Israel. Again, it would be political suicide for Obama to screw Israel, but I cannot make any claim Obama and company are not capable of more miscalculation and mistakes....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 7:21 pm
Christianity really began in Anatolia as he says and he's dishing it out just like Erdogan. What he's doing is putting out a more rational argument than the Turks or Iranians, turning their bullshit logic against them. Revise history? Craig isn't revising history. Frankly, I can understand. While I don't think his plan very likely, I want Turks to understand how friggin pissed off Americans ought to feel. Craig isn't Jewish and has no religious horse in this race. I do assume his libertarian view of religion and State....
The US and England kept the Soviets out of Iran and Turkey. Some thanks we're getting. I'm beginning that was a mistake as Stalin would have toasted the radical clerics and after the fall, these two would be much more on the way to secularism. Would Stalin's control have changed the course of the Cold War? Not based on the reasoning of many Liberals.........
By the way, Israel is playing the blockade about right. Now flotillas are more exposed for the provocation they are and it gives the WH more room to support Israel. Again, it would be political suicide for Obama to screw Israel, but I cannot make any claim Obama and company are not capable of more miscalculation and mistakes....
Less than 3% now in Spain (Muslims)
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 7:22 pm
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/472676e8-7ccb-11df-8b74-00144feabdc0.html
Actually 12 Turks died not eight....
Does anyone notice the numbers of Muslims killed by Muslims over the last two weeks?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 7:26 pm
Actually 12 Turks died not eight....
Does anyone notice the numbers of Muslims killed by Muslims over the last two weeks?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/21/world/middleeast/21iran.html
Iran executes Sunni "resistance leader"...
A Flotilla to Iran.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 20, 2010 7:28 pm
Iran executes Sunni "resistance leader"...
A Flotilla to Iran.....
"The US and England kept the Soviets out of Iran and Turkey. Some thanks we're getting. I'm beginning that was a mistake as Stalin would have toasted the radical clerics and after the fall, these two would be much more on the way to secularism. Would Stalin's control have changed the course of the Cold War? Not based on the reasoning of many Liberals........."
I agree on "toasting" part for it is exactly what happened, but I disagree on "the way to secularism". That is for some it is certainly true, but many people were never secular and just were hiding their true fillings. Once SU fell apart everything got back to where it was 70 years before that. I have no reason to think Iran and Turkey would've been any different.
Posted by: leo at June 20, 2010 8:54 pm
I agree on "toasting" part for it is exactly what happened, but I disagree on "the way to secularism". That is for some it is certainly true, but many people were never secular and just were hiding their true fillings. Once SU fell apart everything got back to where it was 70 years before that. I have no reason to think Iran and Turkey would've been any different.
...it gives the WH more room to support Israel.
...it would be political suicide for Obama to screw Israel
Obama and company are not capable of more miscalculation and mistakes
Um, you really don't seem to want to get it. (I sympathize, I really do, but that won't help any.)
These are not "miscalculations" and not "mistakes."
The Obama administration does NOT support Israel.
Rather, it is in M&W mode (aka Wonderland).
November 2010 is a long way's off. And January 2012 is even longer.
It's going to be one long and bumpy ride.
Posted by: Barry Meislin at June 20, 2010 9:42 pm
...it would be political suicide for Obama to screw Israel
Obama and company are not capable of more miscalculation and mistakes
Um, you really don't seem to want to get it. (I sympathize, I really do, but that won't help any.)
These are not "miscalculations" and not "mistakes."
The Obama administration does NOT support Israel.
Rather, it is in M&W mode (aka Wonderland).
November 2010 is a long way's off. And January 2012 is even longer.
It's going to be one long and bumpy ride.
The flotilla to Iran may already be on its way.
http://blog.usni.org/2010/06/20/stay-tuned/
If one is going to bluff, one should be waving the biggest stick possible.
GUN
FIGHT
RULES,
R
Posted by: Render at June 20, 2010 11:38 pm
http://blog.usni.org/2010/06/20/stay-tuned/
If one is going to bluff, one should be waving the biggest stick possible.
GUN
FIGHT
RULES,
R
"Iran executes Sunni "resistance leader"..."
The point about this guy is not that he was Sunni but that he was a Baluch. The Baluchs in Iran are in the same situation as the Kurds in Turkey (or the Irish in Britain in the 19C).
Posted by: Don Cox at June 21, 2010 1:52 am
The point about this guy is not that he was Sunni but that he was a Baluch. The Baluchs in Iran are in the same situation as the Kurds in Turkey (or the Irish in Britain in the 19C).
Yes, Don, that's why I called him a resistance leader. Iran and Turkey show their true colors...
Barry, I still think that despite what many think are Obama's motives and inclinations, too many others in Congress and the DOD will want history trashing their backs? Obama doesn't have much room to maneuver downwards...
Yep, Render....(will get to mail). Any idea where the USS Eisenhower plans to go? I wonder what the USS Truman is packing after the upgrades.....
We will see if she allows another Iranian overflight...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 5:35 am
Barry, I still think that despite what many think are Obama's motives and inclinations, too many others in Congress and the DOD will want history trashing their backs? Obama doesn't have much room to maneuver downwards...
Yep, Render....(will get to mail). Any idea where the USS Eisenhower plans to go? I wonder what the USS Truman is packing after the upgrades.....
We will see if she allows another Iranian overflight...
Leo, I rather doubt after some KGB cleaning, Turkey or Iran would have been the same....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 5:38 am
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE65K0VZ.htm
Turkey prepares to enter Iraq...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF22Ak01.html
Erdogan's strategy unraveling......
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 5:45 am
Turkey prepares to enter Iraq...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF22Ak01.html
Erdogan's strategy unraveling......
Max: Truman is scheduled to replace Ike on station. The German frigate is part of the Truman group but may be detached to operate with the Somalia anti-pirate task force (who knows?).
Whether or not an INS corvette snuck through the Canal with the Truman group is an open question. But it seems kinda doubtful as the INS already keeps an entire patrol boat squadron (PBU 915) at Eilat.
If there is going to be a confrontation it's better (from our POV) to have it in the Red Sea or further south, then in the crowded Gulf of Suez.
EXPLAINING
SPEED,
R
Posted by: Render at June 21, 2010 6:31 am
Whether or not an INS corvette snuck through the Canal with the Truman group is an open question. But it seems kinda doubtful as the INS already keeps an entire patrol boat squadron (PBU 915) at Eilat.
If there is going to be a confrontation it's better (from our POV) to have it in the Red Sea or further south, then in the crowded Gulf of Suez.
EXPLAINING
SPEED,
R
Yes, I think you are right, but I wonder where the Eisenhower is going.....I do know where the Truman is going...
Also it might be good to have some INS locks on both sides of the Gulf door but it certainly is getting crowed.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:02 am
Also it might be good to have some INS locks on both sides of the Gulf door but it certainly is getting crowed.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRqjZV1Meppj40hTs8IBOv4DdsQwD9GFMMB00
Brazil drops out so Turkey is on its own....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:07 am
Brazil drops out so Turkey is on its own....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/7837686/Rahm-Emanuel-expected-to-quit-White-House.html
interesting if true.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:18 am
interesting if true.....
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10967564
interesting as NK is working with Iran and Syria...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:23 am
interesting as NK is working with Iran and Syria...
@ Craig:
On hating Turks:
No more than I hate other crazy and violent extremists. Wait... actually, a little more. I'll treat them the same way I treat the Taliban when they are no longer occupying Europe and when they are no longer in a military alliance with the West.
Believe me, I’m not at all happy about Turkey and I hope I don’t come off as defending them, because I am not. However, there are shades of gray that I fear you’re overlooking. For example, there are still a good many Turks that do not like the direction Erdogan is taking the country. Therefore, I think the West should respond by challenging the AKP and Erdogan, not EVERY Turk. If we treat them like they’re ALL a bunch of troglodytic Talibs, we’ll certainly lose those who are opposed to Erdogan and who are Western oriented, and there are a good many of them.
On expressing our hatred for some things Muslims do and have done:
Why? Do you think only Islamists have a right to express their hate and contempt for others? Haven't we had enough "mister nice guy" out of the west? Isn't it time for "mister if you don't straighten up and fly right I'll kill your ass"?
I never said that I think ONLY Islamists have the right to express their hate. And naturally I think we in the West have the right to throw it back in their faces, for example, this ( :p ) is an image of the Prophet Mohammad (PB&J) sticking his tongue out. But in all seriousness, I think in many cases we have a DUTY to throw it back in their faces, but in doing so let’s not ‘sound’ like them. Talk of tossing Turks out of Turkey, or nullifying it as a country, sounds about as rational and ‘sophisticated’ as the Islamic talk about destroying Israel.
Armenian question: it was a fair question if only because your posts about Turkey have taken a far much angrier tone than previous posts, and of all of the people I have met who absolutely hate the Turks the most, it’s Armenians—and for understandable reasons.
On nullifying Turkey as a country:
Why is it crazy talk? Europeans have been doing that for 2000 years, and will do it more in the future. If they need help getting Turkey nullified as a country, I think the US should volunteer to help with that. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
Well, if you’re going to say something that … big, would you at least briefly outline how such a situation might come about and how it would be implemented? Is the EU going to start massing armies against the Turks (do you see why I said your view was ‘crazy talk’)? Explain?
On Turkish ethnic identity:
Of course they are. That's because the Turkish soldiers who invaded raped the hell out of all the local women, took tens of thousands more as slaves, forcibly converted the locals to Islam and so on and so forth.
In other words, same thing the Arabs did in the middle-east.
That’s absolutely true, and whether it’s fair or not is besides the point in today’s world. Whether I like it or not, I have to accept that the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians also have ties to the land of Israel (shit, some might be descended from Jews, and many have been there for hundreds of years). It’s for that reason (and admittedly purely demographic considerations) that the majority of Jews and Israelis believe in a two-state solution.
It’s simply unrealistic to de-Turkify or de-Arabify people that identify themselves as the former or latter—or any other similar group, at least on any sort of large scale. Do you think it’s realistic that Pakistanis or Muslims in India will return to their Hindu roots?
That’s why your argument that the foreign Turkish culture must go is unrealistic. And again, I would argue that Turkish culture is very different in many ways from Turkic culture to the east. Whether you like it or not, successive Turkic invasions and empires over centuries and especially Ataturk and his policies of Turkification in more recent times have worked to create “The Turks”. It can’t be undone and the only resisters are the Kurds. In fact, Turks are some of the most nationalistic people I’ve ever met.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:41 am
On hating Turks:
No more than I hate other crazy and violent extremists. Wait... actually, a little more. I'll treat them the same way I treat the Taliban when they are no longer occupying Europe and when they are no longer in a military alliance with the West.
Believe me, I’m not at all happy about Turkey and I hope I don’t come off as defending them, because I am not. However, there are shades of gray that I fear you’re overlooking. For example, there are still a good many Turks that do not like the direction Erdogan is taking the country. Therefore, I think the West should respond by challenging the AKP and Erdogan, not EVERY Turk. If we treat them like they’re ALL a bunch of troglodytic Talibs, we’ll certainly lose those who are opposed to Erdogan and who are Western oriented, and there are a good many of them.
On expressing our hatred for some things Muslims do and have done:
Why? Do you think only Islamists have a right to express their hate and contempt for others? Haven't we had enough "mister nice guy" out of the west? Isn't it time for "mister if you don't straighten up and fly right I'll kill your ass"?
I never said that I think ONLY Islamists have the right to express their hate. And naturally I think we in the West have the right to throw it back in their faces, for example, this ( :p ) is an image of the Prophet Mohammad (PB&J) sticking his tongue out. But in all seriousness, I think in many cases we have a DUTY to throw it back in their faces, but in doing so let’s not ‘sound’ like them. Talk of tossing Turks out of Turkey, or nullifying it as a country, sounds about as rational and ‘sophisticated’ as the Islamic talk about destroying Israel.
Armenian question: it was a fair question if only because your posts about Turkey have taken a far much angrier tone than previous posts, and of all of the people I have met who absolutely hate the Turks the most, it’s Armenians—and for understandable reasons.
On nullifying Turkey as a country:
Why is it crazy talk? Europeans have been doing that for 2000 years, and will do it more in the future. If they need help getting Turkey nullified as a country, I think the US should volunteer to help with that. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
Well, if you’re going to say something that … big, would you at least briefly outline how such a situation might come about and how it would be implemented? Is the EU going to start massing armies against the Turks (do you see why I said your view was ‘crazy talk’)? Explain?
On Turkish ethnic identity:
Of course they are. That's because the Turkish soldiers who invaded raped the hell out of all the local women, took tens of thousands more as slaves, forcibly converted the locals to Islam and so on and so forth.
In other words, same thing the Arabs did in the middle-east.
That’s absolutely true, and whether it’s fair or not is besides the point in today’s world. Whether I like it or not, I have to accept that the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians also have ties to the land of Israel (shit, some might be descended from Jews, and many have been there for hundreds of years). It’s for that reason (and admittedly purely demographic considerations) that the majority of Jews and Israelis believe in a two-state solution.
It’s simply unrealistic to de-Turkify or de-Arabify people that identify themselves as the former or latter—or any other similar group, at least on any sort of large scale. Do you think it’s realistic that Pakistanis or Muslims in India will return to their Hindu roots?
That’s why your argument that the foreign Turkish culture must go is unrealistic. And again, I would argue that Turkish culture is very different in many ways from Turkic culture to the east. Whether you like it or not, successive Turkic invasions and empires over centuries and especially Ataturk and his policies of Turkification in more recent times have worked to create “The Turks”. It can’t be undone and the only resisters are the Kurds. In fact, Turks are some of the most nationalistic people I’ve ever met.
"I rather doubt after some KGB cleaning, Turkey or Iran would have been the same...."
No, they wouldn't be. But is still does not mean they would stay secular either. What happened in former Soviet Union people were looking for ways to fill the vacuum left after retreat of Soviet ideology and religion was the natural answer for great many.
Posted by: leo at June 21, 2010 10:18 am
No, they wouldn't be. But is still does not mean they would stay secular either. What happened in former Soviet Union people were looking for ways to fill the vacuum left after retreat of Soviet ideology and religion was the natural answer for great many.
There's no real chance of the Turks leaving Turkey -- but there is a real chance of the Kurds declaring independence and attempting to create a "two-state solution" for Turks and Kurds.
Especially if Israel were to become a bigger Kurdish ally.
Not-too-unpleasant nightmare: Israel begins shipping arms to Iraqi Kurds, who funnel some of them to Turkish Kurds and Syrian Kurds. Then Israel gives some radical Kurds a nuke and a missile capable of hitting Istanbul.
The Kurds declare they have such a nuke, and declare independence, and promise to nuke Istanbul if the Turks invade.
Nearby Armenia promptly recognizes "Kurdistan".
I'm ashamed enough of these thoughts to prefer deniability. :(
But I'm more angry at dead Arafat and not-yet dead Hamas than Turkey.
Posted by: Toothless? at June 21, 2010 10:23 am
Especially if Israel were to become a bigger Kurdish ally.
Not-too-unpleasant nightmare: Israel begins shipping arms to Iraqi Kurds, who funnel some of them to Turkish Kurds and Syrian Kurds. Then Israel gives some radical Kurds a nuke and a missile capable of hitting Istanbul.
The Kurds declare they have such a nuke, and declare independence, and promise to nuke Istanbul if the Turks invade.
Nearby Armenia promptly recognizes "Kurdistan".
I'm ashamed enough of these thoughts to prefer deniability. :(
But I'm more angry at dead Arafat and not-yet dead Hamas than Turkey.
Good luck with trying to propose an Iranian Turkish rivalry. There is no rivalry. Turkey was ideologically drifting until the EU slapped its face. Turkey now is a province of Iran, just like Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, and Venezuela
Posted by: True Safavid at June 21, 2010 10:29 am
Craig,
I assume you are exposing Ergdogan by using his language against Israel against Turkey for rhetorical effect. True? Or do you actually support the destruction of Turkey?
If the former, carry on. If the latter, I'm going to have to ask you to stop it.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 21, 2010 10:51 am
I assume you are exposing Ergdogan by using his language against Israel against Turkey for rhetorical effect. True? Or do you actually support the destruction of Turkey?
If the former, carry on. If the latter, I'm going to have to ask you to stop it.
True Safavid,
I disagree that Turkey is a province of Iran. What evidence do you have for this? I see a Turkey that might be trying to compete with Iran for influence in the region, hence championing the Gazans. That hardly qualifies as being Iran's bitch. Further, I believe Turkey has a larger economy than Iran, which again speaks to Turkey's strength, not its weakness.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 12:08 pm
I disagree that Turkey is a province of Iran. What evidence do you have for this? I see a Turkey that might be trying to compete with Iran for influence in the region, hence championing the Gazans. That hardly qualifies as being Iran's bitch. Further, I believe Turkey has a larger economy than Iran, which again speaks to Turkey's strength, not its weakness.
Tooth, Israel has no real way to send any thing that count to the Kurds, look at the map. Good old Mahan would have told you that.
Safavid. NATO Turkey, with A bombs on its soil will never be a province of any body, least of all Iran. Look at populations, GNP, import, export etc. With out oil Iran is practically Afganistan.
Posted by: Rani at June 21, 2010 12:27 pm
Safavid. NATO Turkey, with A bombs on its soil will never be a province of any body, least of all Iran. Look at populations, GNP, import, export etc. With out oil Iran is practically Afganistan.
Further, Safavid--and if you're an Iranian I don't mean to offend--but the fact is that the Turkish military would probably crush Iran's military. Turkey's military is quite formidable; it's far more technologically advanced than Iran's.
The more I think about it, if anything the Iranians should begin to internalize that the Turks are positioned to dominate the region. Look at the map: to the north and northeast Iran is bordered by Turkic peoples who are mostly Sunni.
No, Iran is not in any position to start dictating to Turkey. It could turn out to the other way around. And maybe that sheds a lot of light on Turkey's new-found Gaza fetish. They're stealing Iran's thunder. And finally, unlike Iran, Turkey is not shunned by Europe, despite the fact that it's not an EU member. This could change if Turkey goes radical Islamist, but that contingency is far from certain.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 12:37 pm
The more I think about it, if anything the Iranians should begin to internalize that the Turks are positioned to dominate the region. Look at the map: to the north and northeast Iran is bordered by Turkic peoples who are mostly Sunni.
No, Iran is not in any position to start dictating to Turkey. It could turn out to the other way around. And maybe that sheds a lot of light on Turkey's new-found Gaza fetish. They're stealing Iran's thunder. And finally, unlike Iran, Turkey is not shunned by Europe, despite the fact that it's not an EU member. This could change if Turkey goes radical Islamist, but that contingency is far from certain.
Guys and gals,
If interested, I have an essay forwarded to me that was written by a Jerusalemite. It's a fascinating read because it offers an entirely different perspective on Israel and its true strength. In a nutshell, the essay attempts to put to bed the notion that Israel, without massive US support, would cease to exist. The essay is backed up by citations and is eight pages long. If you would like to read it, email me.
zamazur@yahoo.com
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 12:42 pm
If interested, I have an essay forwarded to me that was written by a Jerusalemite. It's a fascinating read because it offers an entirely different perspective on Israel and its true strength. In a nutshell, the essay attempts to put to bed the notion that Israel, without massive US support, would cease to exist. The essay is backed up by citations and is eight pages long. If you would like to read it, email me.
zamazur@yahoo.com
As for taking Turkey apart or some thing like that, the Greeks tried it at about 1920. The Turks were in a realy bad shape. let us say some thing like the most destroyed parts of the south after the war bwtween the states. It was a very bad idea. A real blood bath and a real ethnic cleaning of Turks from Greece and Greeks from Turkey, one of the most complete ethnic cleaning in modern history. Now the cleaned Greeks lived in those places since before history. By 1935 there zero Greeks there. I would suggest that even talking about that is a very bad idea. I should add that I hate what is happening now to Turky and I am scared of it, I would be an idiot if I was not.
Posted by: Rani at June 21, 2010 12:55 pm
Shipping anything from Israel to the Kurds would be somewhat problematical at best, extremely expensive at the least.
There is no friendly route...
===
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem."
-Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
IF THAT'S
WHAT IT
TAKES,
R
Posted by: Render at June 21, 2010 1:01 pm
There is no friendly route...
===
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem."
-Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
IF THAT'S
WHAT IT
TAKES,
R
Sorry, but the evidence that Turkey is on the Iranian side is the fact that Turkey has offered to hide Iranian uranium, and that Turkey vetoed sanctions against Iran. The Turks may have a fine army, but they have not quelled a Kurdish revolt with their technologically advanced army. The Iranians have quelled not only the Kurds, but the Ahwaz Arabs, the Baluchis, and the Azeris. If Turkey cannot handle the Kurds, they would be no match for the revolutionary guards. And there is no reason for Turkey and Iran to fight. They are both devoted to the Caliphate
Posted by: Trus Safavid at June 21, 2010 1:15 pm
Jews have remained silent for far too long with respect of that blackest of days in Istanbul, when on February 23, 1942, the SS Struma, without a working engine, was towed into the Black Sea, where it was left to sink with the loss of 765 Jewish refugee passengers, including 100 children.
At his next press conference, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan must be confronted with this, and with the behavior of his own father, maritime Captain Ahmet Erdogan, and that of his father’s fellow Istanbul port workers, for their failure to oppose and prevent the perpetration of this Turkish war crime.
KARL HUTTENBAUER
Berlin
Posted by: KARL HUTTENBAUER at June 21, 2010 1:18 pm
At his next press conference, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan must be confronted with this, and with the behavior of his own father, maritime Captain Ahmet Erdogan, and that of his father’s fellow Istanbul port workers, for their failure to oppose and prevent the perpetration of this Turkish war crime.
KARL HUTTENBAUER
Berlin
It's sad to see the comments of some people here, which once attracted reasonable people. Now it's filled with people like Craig.
To the coward who uses that nickname: If you have a single iota of courage in you, then actively try to do what you've spoken about above. Let's see how long would you last. But I bet we'll see who you truly are, just a whimpering dog with a loud mouth.
And to Michael: I really enjoy your reporting and regret that I had to post something like this, but things he has said made it impossible to just ignore him. If he were to compare Americans to genocidal rapists, how long would he have lasted here?
Posted by: Fzl at June 21, 2010 1:34 pm
To the coward who uses that nickname: If you have a single iota of courage in you, then actively try to do what you've spoken about above. Let's see how long would you last. But I bet we'll see who you truly are, just a whimpering dog with a loud mouth.
And to Michael: I really enjoy your reporting and regret that I had to post something like this, but things he has said made it impossible to just ignore him. If he were to compare Americans to genocidal rapists, how long would he have lasted here?
Some relevant items
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65K4B420100621 SCOTUS affirms Material Support Law....now go get Ayers..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575311011923686570.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular
Good article on Israel and the West.....
That was my work break folks....
Also Israel and the US conducted war games last week. Truman would have been proud his carrier was used....
Render....watch the latest hypersonic Club K video..... it seems to target our cruisers...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 1:36 pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65K4B420100621 SCOTUS affirms Material Support Law....now go get Ayers..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575311011923686570.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular
Good article on Israel and the West.....
That was my work break folks....
Also Israel and the US conducted war games last week. Truman would have been proud his carrier was used....
Render....watch the latest hypersonic Club K video..... it seems to target our cruisers...
Maxtrue: our link generator :) Thanks man, I enjoy the links!
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 1:40 pm
...hello, semite5000....
...Pls check your regular email inbox, I'm interested in reading those eight pages...sounds sensible.
/////
Meanwhile, the following pasted title falls in nicely with T.E. Lawrence's "Seven Pillars Of Wisdom" as necessary background for our present complications:
"Turkey's War History in the First World War
Why the Ottoman Empire Chose an Alliance with Germany in WW1
Aug 31, 2009 James Parsons....", taken from the Internet.
Posted by: Hrothgar at June 21, 2010 1:47 pm
...Pls check your regular email inbox, I'm interested in reading those eight pages...sounds sensible.
/////
Meanwhile, the following pasted title falls in nicely with T.E. Lawrence's "Seven Pillars Of Wisdom" as necessary background for our present complications:
"Turkey's War History in the First World War
Why the Ottoman Empire Chose an Alliance with Germany in WW1
Aug 31, 2009 James Parsons....", taken from the Internet.
Fzi, we are constantly attacked in similar ways and Israel more so even from some in Turkey. I can't remember you posting here denouncing the trash talking of Israel.
Craig is no loonie and he was just dishing out some of what was dished out from Erdogan and company. No one here actually advocated the removal of Turks from Turkey from what I read. I will let Craig clarify himself and Michael has already commented. And here are some comments from Erdogan and one who is in his camp below. Not once have I heard Erdogan denounce the remarks below. On his watch much has happened.
http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/27776.htm
http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/27775.htm
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4272.htm
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 1:51 pm
Craig is no loonie and he was just dishing out some of what was dished out from Erdogan and company. No one here actually advocated the removal of Turks from Turkey from what I read. I will let Craig clarify himself and Michael has already commented. And here are some comments from Erdogan and one who is in his camp below. Not once have I heard Erdogan denounce the remarks below. On his watch much has happened.
http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/27776.htm
http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/27775.htm
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4272.htm
Thanks S-5000 a few more from Memri await Michael's nod. You can view them right now. Check out Turkish blog at Memri and the one titled;
"Salafi Jihadi Sheikh Hussein Bin Mahmud: Gaza Does Not Want Freedom Flotillas with Blonde Women – It Wants Black Islamic Banners of Jihad; Hitler Left Some Jews Alive So the World Could See Why He Killed the Rest; 'Gaza… Is Thirsty and Wants to Drink the Blood of the Sons of Apes and Pigs'"
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 1:53 pm
"Salafi Jihadi Sheikh Hussein Bin Mahmud: Gaza Does Not Want Freedom Flotillas with Blonde Women – It Wants Black Islamic Banners of Jihad; Hitler Left Some Jews Alive So the World Could See Why He Killed the Rest; 'Gaza… Is Thirsty and Wants to Drink the Blood of the Sons of Apes and Pigs'"
Fzi, can you see why such tepid responses to the above from Erdogan coupled with his blather as invoking the rage of some Americans?
It hurts when similar logic of delegitimization are thrown at Turks....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 1:57 pm
It hurts when similar logic of delegitimization are thrown at Turks....
I would say there's more than "trash talking" towards Israel, but that's not the issue. Does Erdogan's words give him license to "dish out" as you've said? If someone were to propose that America's forefathers barbaric murderers and rapists and Americans with European ancestry should be kicked out?
But to make it clear: I think Erdogan is dead wrong here, especially about Hamas. If you were to think that what you perceive as an injustice gives you unequivocal right to commit heinous acts, then you would be on the same level as Craig.
Posted by: Fzl at June 21, 2010 2:11 pm
But to make it clear: I think Erdogan is dead wrong here, especially about Hamas. If you were to think that what you perceive as an injustice gives you unequivocal right to commit heinous acts, then you would be on the same level as Craig.
"Good luck with trying to propose an Iranian Turkish rivalry. There is no rivalry. Turkey was ideologically drifting until the EU slapped its face. Turkey now is a province of Iran, just like Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, and Venezuela"
True Safavid, I think you just proved yourself wrong with this statement.
Can anybody seriously imagine Turkey playing second violin and especially to Iran?
Posted by: leo at June 21, 2010 2:47 pm
True Safavid, I think you just proved yourself wrong with this statement.
Can anybody seriously imagine Turkey playing second violin and especially to Iran?
Fzi, what heinous acts have I committed? What acts have Craig? Erdogan chums it up with Ahmadinejad who denies the Holocaust. Did Erdogan lecture him about that? Is Erdogan even giving cover to a country that has called for the end of Israel? Me thinks you are confusing angry rhetoric (that has some historical basis) with REAL ACTS of the present Turkish government who had the balls to compare the Flotilla boarding with 9/11. That's the news. That's the real problem, not some blogger's waxing impolite on the history of Turkey who sided with Germany in WW! and considered Hitler during WW2.
Again, Craig didn't slaughter Armenians. Craig didn't engage in a provocation of Israel and the support of a terrorist group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Do you get it?
I think your outrage indirectly proves Craig's point, although again, I do not speak for anyone other than myself here....
Yes, Erdogan's behavior gives anyone a right to dish it out to Erdogan and remind him what shaky ground he stands on. That is clearly different than actually removing Turks from Anatolia or sending Flotillas to the Kurds who were clearly more victimized than Hamas.
Did you get that?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 3:04 pm
Again, Craig didn't slaughter Armenians. Craig didn't engage in a provocation of Israel and the support of a terrorist group whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Do you get it?
I think your outrage indirectly proves Craig's point, although again, I do not speak for anyone other than myself here....
Yes, Erdogan's behavior gives anyone a right to dish it out to Erdogan and remind him what shaky ground he stands on. That is clearly different than actually removing Turks from Anatolia or sending Flotillas to the Kurds who were clearly more victimized than Hamas.
Did you get that?
Leo, sometimes the most obvious facts escape awareness.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 3:06 pm
Fzi, screw it.
Your righteous anger does not impress me a bit.
Erdogan is the head of state and he has to think ten time before he says whatever he says. And until he does you better learn good how to coupe with consequences.
P.S. I promise to shut my mouth right after Erdogan shuts his. I also promise to offer my apologizes right after Erdogan does his part.
Posted by: leo at June 21, 2010 3:23 pm
Your righteous anger does not impress me a bit.
Erdogan is the head of state and he has to think ten time before he says whatever he says. And until he does you better learn good how to coupe with consequences.
P.S. I promise to shut my mouth right after Erdogan shuts his. I also promise to offer my apologizes right after Erdogan does his part.
Fzl: If he were to compare Americans to genocidal rapists, how long would he have lasted here?
Too bad for you. Your Erdogan has embraced the genocidal shitbags known as Hamas, and disgraced the memory of all the innocents they have slaughtered. If there was any justice in the world, Erdogan would end up like Mussolini and swing upside down over a street in Ankara.
We may end up lucky enough to see that happen, Insha'Allah.
.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 3:24 pm
Too bad for you. Your Erdogan has embraced the genocidal shitbags known as Hamas, and disgraced the memory of all the innocents they have slaughtered. If there was any justice in the world, Erdogan would end up like Mussolini and swing upside down over a street in Ankara.
We may end up lucky enough to see that happen, Insha'Allah.
.
I agree with True Safavid. Turkey is certainly acting like an Iranian surrogate, especially in its efforts to hide Iranian nuclear material. Our interests lie with an independent Kurdistan, which allows us to oppose both Iran and Turkey in a single step
Posted by: Herb at June 21, 2010 3:26 pm
Herb: Our interests lie with an independent Kurdistan, which allows us to oppose both Iran and Turkey in a single step
If BHO had balls, he would announce full support for Kurdish independence at a NATO summit, and make good on it in meaningful and concrete ways. Let Turkey get angry enough to leave NATO. Good riddance if they did.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 3:30 pm
If BHO had balls, he would announce full support for Kurdish independence at a NATO summit, and make good on it in meaningful and concrete ways. Let Turkey get angry enough to leave NATO. Good riddance if they did.
"Our interests lie with an independent Kurdistan, which allows us to oppose both Iran and Turkey in a single step"
Kurds have no chance to succeed. They will end up dead and we will end up with dirty hands. Once we will leave Iraq Kurds will be completely surrounded by hostiles and that will be the end of it. Turks, Iranians, Iraqis and Syrians will commit collective genocide and World will not say a word.
Posted by: leo at June 21, 2010 3:34 pm
Kurds have no chance to succeed. They will end up dead and we will end up with dirty hands. Once we will leave Iraq Kurds will be completely surrounded by hostiles and that will be the end of it. Turks, Iranians, Iraqis and Syrians will commit collective genocide and World will not say a word.
Sorry to say Leo may be right and therein lies much of the anger I think expressed here.
Turkey is waiting and so is Iran. Unfortunately the secular Turkish military is more opposed to the Kurds than Erdogan so I don't see how this will work out well, once we complete our vacuum.
Maybe Rahm is sensing the writing on the wall....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 4:47 pm
Turkey is waiting and so is Iran. Unfortunately the secular Turkish military is more opposed to the Kurds than Erdogan so I don't see how this will work out well, once we complete our vacuum.
Maybe Rahm is sensing the writing on the wall....
Wow, too much here for me to reply to so I won't even try for now. Maybe later when I have time.
MJT,
I assume you are exposing Ergdogan by using his language against Israel against Turkey for rhetorical effect. True?
For the most part. The reaction of Fzl was what i was looking for :)
I really don't get how people can be so self-righteous that they don't even recognize when the arguments of their own ideology are thrown back in their faces.
There was a time when "Turkey" would not have been allowed to remain in Europe after the Ottomans were defeated. That time may yet come, but it isn't now. Global conflicts have a way of changing maps, and causing some countries to vanish while new countries appear. We'll see what happens the next time there's a world war when Turkey sides against Europe (again) as I suspect they will. Nobody's tolerance of the intolerable is unlimited.
Posted by: Craig at June 21, 2010 5:10 pm
MJT,
I assume you are exposing Ergdogan by using his language against Israel against Turkey for rhetorical effect. True?
For the most part. The reaction of Fzl was what i was looking for :)
I really don't get how people can be so self-righteous that they don't even recognize when the arguments of their own ideology are thrown back in their faces.
There was a time when "Turkey" would not have been allowed to remain in Europe after the Ottomans were defeated. That time may yet come, but it isn't now. Global conflicts have a way of changing maps, and causing some countries to vanish while new countries appear. We'll see what happens the next time there's a world war when Turkey sides against Europe (again) as I suspect they will. Nobody's tolerance of the intolerable is unlimited.
I think Rahm is on the way out for the following reason. In the eyes of BHO, the Old City of Jerusalem, including the Kotel, is Palestinian territory. Rahm wanted to have his sons barmitzvah in Jerusalem. By having his son guarded by Israeli security rather than Palestinian security, Rahm spat a thick wad of mucus into the eyes of his boss. Not good for career longevity.
In terms of Kurdistan, Kurds armed with some modern weaponry are more than a match for a technically well equipped but somnolent Turkish military
Posted by: Herb at June 21, 2010 5:11 pm
In terms of Kurdistan, Kurds armed with some modern weaponry are more than a match for a technically well equipped but somnolent Turkish military
Thanks Craig......
For me at least, your intent was rather obvious.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 5:14 pm
For me at least, your intent was rather obvious.
I think any Turkish 'help' for the Iranians is based off of what the Turks believe to be in their self-interest towards their effort to be the big power in the Mideast,not because they are or view themselves as a vassal of Iran.
Does anybody else think that Turkey and Iran's new-found fondness for each other might have echoes of the Molotov-Ribbontrop agreement? It's convenient for both parties for now, but it's not so certain it will be in the future.
As for both wanting a Caliphate, I have a strong feeling they don't plan on power-sharing it. Hello, different elasticities, different sects of Islam.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 5:46 pm
Does anybody else think that Turkey and Iran's new-found fondness for each other might have echoes of the Molotov-Ribbontrop agreement? It's convenient for both parties for now, but it's not so certain it will be in the future.
As for both wanting a Caliphate, I have a strong feeling they don't plan on power-sharing it. Hello, different elasticities, different sects of Islam.
If there was any justice in the world, Erdogan would end up like Mussolini and swing upside down over a street in Ankara.
Well, half a century ago that's how a number of 'naughty' Turkish politicians ended up. See Adnan Menderes and two of his ministers, both hanged after a Turkish military coup.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 5:51 pm
Well, half a century ago that's how a number of 'naughty' Turkish politicians ended up. See Adnan Menderes and two of his ministers, both hanged after a Turkish military coup.
If BHO had balls, he would announce full support for Kurdish independence at a NATO summit, and make good on it in meaningful and concrete ways. Let Turkey get angry enough to leave NATO. Good riddance if they did.
Not just that, but it's also time to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Both the United States and Israel--and American Jews who went to bat for the Turks--played the real-politic game over that tragedy for far too long.
Speaking as a Jew, Turkey's backstabbing feels almost like karmic payback for our silence regarding the Armenian Genocide. Well, it's never too late to do the right thing.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 5:54 pm
Not just that, but it's also time to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Both the United States and Israel--and American Jews who went to bat for the Turks--played the real-politic game over that tragedy for far too long.
Speaking as a Jew, Turkey's backstabbing feels almost like karmic payback for our silence regarding the Armenian Genocide. Well, it's never too late to do the right thing.
Craig:
There was a time when "Turkey" would not have been allowed to remain in Europe after the Ottomans were defeated. That time may yet come, but it isn't now.
Actually, a number of European powers wanted to do just that during WWI as the Ottoman Empire crumbled. The Greeks and the Armenians sensed Turkish weakness and also struck, but the Turks won--brutally. The Turks fought ferociously in order to hold on to what they saw as their heartland, Anatolia. And that's why Turkey exists.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:00 pm
There was a time when "Turkey" would not have been allowed to remain in Europe after the Ottomans were defeated. That time may yet come, but it isn't now.
Actually, a number of European powers wanted to do just that during WWI as the Ottoman Empire crumbled. The Greeks and the Armenians sensed Turkish weakness and also struck, but the Turks won--brutally. The Turks fought ferociously in order to hold on to what they saw as their heartland, Anatolia. And that's why Turkey exists.
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2010/06/material_support_court_ruling.php
This creates some very interesting problems....
And will Holder act. Read the end and the implications for Turkey and hopefully McKinney and Ayers.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 6:01 pm
This creates some very interesting problems....
And will Holder act. Read the end and the implications for Turkey and hopefully McKinney and Ayers.....
semite5000: Speaking as a Jew, Turkey's backstabbing feels almost like karmic payback for our silence regarding the Armenian Genocide. Well, it's never too late to do the right thing.
If Turkey is truly lost - I don't know that it is, pending results of the upcoming elections - then Israel should do exactly what you are proposing and hammer the Turks incessantly on it. Establish a permanent annex at Yad Vashem. Embrace the Armenians and stick it to Turkey.
Got the file, btw - thanks and I will get you some feedback when i read it.
.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 6:03 pm
If Turkey is truly lost - I don't know that it is, pending results of the upcoming elections - then Israel should do exactly what you are proposing and hammer the Turks incessantly on it. Establish a permanent annex at Yad Vashem. Embrace the Armenians and stick it to Turkey.
Got the file, btw - thanks and I will get you some feedback when i read it.
.
I think Rahm is on the way out for the following reason. In the eyes of BHO, the Old City of Jerusalem, including the Kotel, is Palestinian territory. Rahm wanted to have his sons barmitzvah in Jerusalem. By having his son guarded by Israeli security rather than Palestinian security, Rahm spat a thick wad of mucus into the eyes of his boss. Not good for career longevity.
Interesting thought, Herb. I suspect things are probably far more complex, but your point highlights an important truth. I must say I was SHOCKED when the Obama Admin. demanded a cessation of any and all construction in post-1967 parts of Jerusalem. I said right away, "So, renovating a part of the Western Wall plaza in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem is now an anti-peace measure that must be condemned? We're headed for trouble."
It was then that I stopped supporting Obama. I was and remain appalled, not just at the unfairness of it historically and religiously speaking, but also of its strategic stupidity. It was after that that the PA refused to negotiate at all because why should they be less 'hard line' than the US?
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:06 pm
Interesting thought, Herb. I suspect things are probably far more complex, but your point highlights an important truth. I must say I was SHOCKED when the Obama Admin. demanded a cessation of any and all construction in post-1967 parts of Jerusalem. I said right away, "So, renovating a part of the Western Wall plaza in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem is now an anti-peace measure that must be condemned? We're headed for trouble."
It was then that I stopped supporting Obama. I was and remain appalled, not just at the unfairness of it historically and religiously speaking, but also of its strategic stupidity. It was after that that the PA refused to negotiate at all because why should they be less 'hard line' than the US?
Israel and the US have many ways of sticking it back to the Turks, but for now both are taking Turkish insults and provocation quietly.
From Israel's perspective, maintaining diplomatic relations with Turkey is still of paramount importance, so I don't think we'll see Israel do any of the things we've been discussing, no matter how cathartic it would be. No, not at this point; Not until it's completely clear that Turkey is lost forever. As I've stated before, there are a good number of Turks that don't like Erdogan. Israel is still taking a wait-and-see approach.
From the American perspective, the Obama Administration's limb-wristed FB precludes any American push-back.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:15 pm
From Israel's perspective, maintaining diplomatic relations with Turkey is still of paramount importance, so I don't think we'll see Israel do any of the things we've been discussing, no matter how cathartic it would be. No, not at this point; Not until it's completely clear that Turkey is lost forever. As I've stated before, there are a good number of Turks that don't like Erdogan. Israel is still taking a wait-and-see approach.
From the American perspective, the Obama Administration's limb-wristed FB precludes any American push-back.
semite5000: It was then that I stopped supporting Obama. I was and remain appalled, not just at the unfairness of it historically and religiously speaking, but also of its strategic stupidity.
I felt the bottom falling out when BHO spoke in Egypt, and blundered his way to feeding the pernicious myth that Israel's raison d'etre was the Holocaust and all the twisted equivocation that comes with that - a gift to the Arab rejectionists.
But then the Jerusalem construction outrage made me regard BHO as an enemy, because no sitting president could possibly be that stupid. Occam's Razor, you know. Hillary is in the toilet with him for being his hatchet-woman.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 6:22 pm
I felt the bottom falling out when BHO spoke in Egypt, and blundered his way to feeding the pernicious myth that Israel's raison d'etre was the Holocaust and all the twisted equivocation that comes with that - a gift to the Arab rejectionists.
But then the Jerusalem construction outrage made me regard BHO as an enemy, because no sitting president could possibly be that stupid. Occam's Razor, you know. Hillary is in the toilet with him for being his hatchet-woman.
Alright everybody, big grain of salt alert: http://debka.com/article/8866/
Still, this report jibes with a number of events that have been reported in the MSM.
If true, what does this mean? Does it mean Obama has the balls we all wish he had? Or is it a cleaver way of silencing his critics by looking tough while having no intention of actually backing up American military posturing against Iran. I don't know. I would love to renew my faith in Obama ... sorry, it's the social liberal in me.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:23 pm
Still, this report jibes with a number of events that have been reported in the MSM.
If true, what does this mean? Does it mean Obama has the balls we all wish he had? Or is it a cleaver way of silencing his critics by looking tough while having no intention of actually backing up American military posturing against Iran. I don't know. I would love to renew my faith in Obama ... sorry, it's the social liberal in me.
Mamzer:
But then the Jerusalem construction outrage made me regard BHO as an enemy, because no sitting president could possibly be that stupid. Occam's Razor, you know. Hillary is in the toilet with him for being his hatchet-woman.
At best we can see this as extreme naivete on the part of the Commander in Chief. But regarding Hillary, you're right--she knew better. Truly cynical and sickening.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:24 pm
But then the Jerusalem construction outrage made me regard BHO as an enemy, because no sitting president could possibly be that stupid. Occam's Razor, you know. Hillary is in the toilet with him for being his hatchet-woman.
At best we can see this as extreme naivete on the part of the Commander in Chief. But regarding Hillary, you're right--she knew better. Truly cynical and sickening.
Jpost article on Turkey and Rahm: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=179108
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:32 pm
Am I to understand that Ayers and others directly helping Hamas would be a crime? Even for humanitarian reasons? I think the fallout over this SCOTUS ruling is just beginning as Democrats were set in changing the Material Support Law. I believe several groups at Trinity Church were collecting funds that went to Hamas.
Erdogan doesn't see Hamas as a terror group and this ruling heightens the rift. He certainly agrees the PPK is a terrorist group. I agree with S-5000 that it is too early to write Turks off. Those I know here are very upset at Erdogan's drift. They are some of the nicest people I have met which has made it hard for me to fathom the changes in Turkey.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 6:33 pm
Erdogan doesn't see Hamas as a terror group and this ruling heightens the rift. He certainly agrees the PPK is a terrorist group. I agree with S-5000 that it is too early to write Turks off. Those I know here are very upset at Erdogan's drift. They are some of the nicest people I have met which has made it hard for me to fathom the changes in Turkey.
Btw, in a few days I will be having coffee with a close Turkish friend of mine who will be in town. He's absolutely not a fan of Erdogan and I know him personally to be a pretty liberal guy, far more European in orientation than Islam-Middle Eastern. But, he's still a proud Turk. I'll do my best to sum up our discussion.
Briefing coming in a week or so ...
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:36 pm
Briefing coming in a week or so ...
Maxtrue,
Thanks for the back up. The 'game' in Turkey is not over yet. We don't know how it will end, which way Turkey will go. It's a complex friggin' country, it really is. There is no "one" Turkey. Of course, we can say this about other Middle Eastern countries, or any society for that matter. We all know there are liberal Arabs and Iranians. In the case of the Arabs, sadly, they tend to be voices in the wilderness, perhaps less so among Iranians. Hell, you could find a progressive Saudi if you looked hard enough. But I'm not convinced this is the case with the Turks; I'm not convinced Erdogan speaks for the majority of Turks, although I could be wrong, but maybe not ...
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Thanks for the back up. The 'game' in Turkey is not over yet. We don't know how it will end, which way Turkey will go. It's a complex friggin' country, it really is. There is no "one" Turkey. Of course, we can say this about other Middle Eastern countries, or any society for that matter. We all know there are liberal Arabs and Iranians. In the case of the Arabs, sadly, they tend to be voices in the wilderness, perhaps less so among Iranians. Hell, you could find a progressive Saudi if you looked hard enough. But I'm not convinced this is the case with the Turks; I'm not convinced Erdogan speaks for the majority of Turks, although I could be wrong, but maybe not ...
I mentioned this above S-5000 and linked another source other than Debka. I said Truman would be proud.
Hillary's worst moment as her husband recognized Gilo as Israeli. I think you have Obama and his core of advisers and another circle of necessary people who are not pleased. Rahm suggest to WSJ the inner circle is "idealistic" and I think he was being far to kind. I think the price Hillary paid for the "second track" was spouting the first track. We don't know the poker game going on within the administration. Congress is very supportive of Israel. I think the second track came alive after Obama got Ahmadinejad's insane letter. Intel wrote warning on terror activities launched by Iran from Gaza to South America. I think that the limp dick became a Limp Dick Strategy while Gates and the DOD planned for "what if". Without a change of attitude, the US was actually forcing Israel to go it alone. I see two strange tracks, but perhaps the second track can grow into real determination to make a stand.
I now believe Obama clearly doesn't know which suit will work, but I hope that his pragmatic egoism will point out which suit to wear. I have given up seeing a real hidden passion in Obama to lead Liberal Democracy in these dangerous hours. He is on another mission altogether, but reality may force him to play a different role.
Retuning Winston Churchill's bust to the WH would be a good sign, but at this point joint bombing activities with Israel are a much clear signal were we to now believe Obama has discovered resolve.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 6:53 pm
Hillary's worst moment as her husband recognized Gilo as Israeli. I think you have Obama and his core of advisers and another circle of necessary people who are not pleased. Rahm suggest to WSJ the inner circle is "idealistic" and I think he was being far to kind. I think the price Hillary paid for the "second track" was spouting the first track. We don't know the poker game going on within the administration. Congress is very supportive of Israel. I think the second track came alive after Obama got Ahmadinejad's insane letter. Intel wrote warning on terror activities launched by Iran from Gaza to South America. I think that the limp dick became a Limp Dick Strategy while Gates and the DOD planned for "what if". Without a change of attitude, the US was actually forcing Israel to go it alone. I see two strange tracks, but perhaps the second track can grow into real determination to make a stand.
I now believe Obama clearly doesn't know which suit will work, but I hope that his pragmatic egoism will point out which suit to wear. I have given up seeing a real hidden passion in Obama to lead Liberal Democracy in these dangerous hours. He is on another mission altogether, but reality may force him to play a different role.
Retuning Winston Churchill's bust to the WH would be a good sign, but at this point joint bombing activities with Israel are a much clear signal were we to now believe Obama has discovered resolve.
Recently China, Russia and India have distanced themselves from Khamenei and the IRGC Kuds force. They have likely done this in part because they don't think the regime is likely to last long.
So why do Erdogan and Lula save the Iranian regime for now [angering India, China and Russia in the process]?
Would it be fair to say that Khamenei and the IRGC Kuds are now Turkish clients? Why would Erdogan choose to make the unpopular Iranian regime some kind of Turkish sattrap? When the regime falls, Erdogan will be left with a foul taste. Why not wait for a more stable Iranian regime?
Erdogan can correctly state and China, Europe and America have made client states out of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and that there are far more odious elements in those countries than in Iran. True. However, Khamenei is no saint. Plus he is weak and unlikely to last, even with Turkish support.
What is happening here? Iran's nonoil GDP is weak. RoI in energy CAPEX and exploration expense is low. Why obtain a weak client state whose government is unpopular and unstable?
Posted by: anan at June 21, 2010 6:58 pm
So why do Erdogan and Lula save the Iranian regime for now [angering India, China and Russia in the process]?
Would it be fair to say that Khamenei and the IRGC Kuds are now Turkish clients? Why would Erdogan choose to make the unpopular Iranian regime some kind of Turkish sattrap? When the regime falls, Erdogan will be left with a foul taste. Why not wait for a more stable Iranian regime?
Erdogan can correctly state and China, Europe and America have made client states out of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and that there are far more odious elements in those countries than in Iran. True. However, Khamenei is no saint. Plus he is weak and unlikely to last, even with Turkish support.
What is happening here? Iran's nonoil GDP is weak. RoI in energy CAPEX and exploration expense is low. Why obtain a weak client state whose government is unpopular and unstable?
S, I have found Turks in NYC wonderful people. I know those here tend to be liberal. We should be careful to do as much as we can to help the opposition in Turkey to beat Erdogan. Part of that is showing Erdogan's supporters how angry we are (see Craig) and also by showing Turks how we have been Turkey's friend.
I have never witnessed a Congress supposedly in Obama's pocket be a check to his misguided strategies. This is why I think at the end of the day, Obama will not be guided by the left, but make his final pivot to the center. I hold these views largely for the same reason you do.....
sorry for all my typos today....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:02 pm
I have never witnessed a Congress supposedly in Obama's pocket be a check to his misguided strategies. This is why I think at the end of the day, Obama will not be guided by the left, but make his final pivot to the center. I hold these views largely for the same reason you do.....
sorry for all my typos today....
anan: Erdogan can correctly state and China, Europe and America have made client states out of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and that there are far more odious elements in those countries than in Iran.
Do this: Name the most odious elements in Iran, and then compare them to the most odious elements in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
If you won't, you're just full of the same tired duplicitous bullshit.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 7:04 pm
Do this: Name the most odious elements in Iran, and then compare them to the most odious elements in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
If you won't, you're just full of the same tired duplicitous bullshit.
Maxtrue, I agree with you completely. Excellent analysis.
Regarding the Churchill bust, I also agree. Speaking of Churchill and Obama's dithering and limp-wristed FP, I am reminded of Churchill's famous quip that "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Let's hope this quote applies to the gathering storms in the Middle East today.
Unlike many others, I do not think that Obama is a "sekrit Muslim" America hater. My disagreements with him are respectful and are primarily related to FP.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 7:04 pm
Regarding the Churchill bust, I also agree. Speaking of Churchill and Obama's dithering and limp-wristed FP, I am reminded of Churchill's famous quip that "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Let's hope this quote applies to the gathering storms in the Middle East today.
Unlike many others, I do not think that Obama is a "sekrit Muslim" America hater. My disagreements with him are respectful and are primarily related to FP.
Sheesh, for the first time I sort of agree with one of Anand's analyses.
I've asked myself that same question. Why support an unpopular regime? I think anybody with an understanding of the ebbs and flow of history must know that the current regime in Iran is living on borrowed time, especially after the last election and despite Fareed Zakaria's prognosis (although Zakaria doesn't suggest the regime is healthy for the long term; but he may be right that currently the regime is not as weak and unpopular as it appears ... but this is another thread entirely and I digress ...).
This doesn't mean that Iran can't wreak havoc in the very near future, but does anybody really believe that Khoemeini's Islamic Republic will be around in ... two decades? It's an historic blink of an eye, this regime.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 7:10 pm
I've asked myself that same question. Why support an unpopular regime? I think anybody with an understanding of the ebbs and flow of history must know that the current regime in Iran is living on borrowed time, especially after the last election and despite Fareed Zakaria's prognosis (although Zakaria doesn't suggest the regime is healthy for the long term; but he may be right that currently the regime is not as weak and unpopular as it appears ... but this is another thread entirely and I digress ...).
This doesn't mean that Iran can't wreak havoc in the very near future, but does anybody really believe that Khoemeini's Islamic Republic will be around in ... two decades? It's an historic blink of an eye, this regime.
If it is any consolation S, people like us are trying hard to keep the Democrats from falling into the abyss. I've been battling Democratic stupidity for more than seven years. I take it as a moral and political responsibility.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:18 pm
S, each one of the countries Anan mentioned have their own reasons.
Russia to wrestle concessions out of us and payback for the Gore understanding. Maybe even to start a war which raises their oil revenue and give them contracts after devastation levels the Gulf.
China for oil and to wrestle concessions from the US.
India because Shia naturally oppose Sunnis.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Russia to wrestle concessions out of us and payback for the Gore understanding. Maybe even to start a war which raises their oil revenue and give them contracts after devastation levels the Gulf.
China for oil and to wrestle concessions from the US.
India because Shia naturally oppose Sunnis.
Maxtrue,
It's good to hear. If you want to understand my political outlook, refer to Charles Johnson of LGF; I find myself agreeing with and or sympathizing with most of his views/posts.
I feel like a political orphan, at least inasmuch as American politics are concerned ... sniffle sniffle ...
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 7:24 pm
It's good to hear. If you want to understand my political outlook, refer to Charles Johnson of LGF; I find myself agreeing with and or sympathizing with most of his views/posts.
I feel like a political orphan, at least inasmuch as American politics are concerned ... sniffle sniffle ...
So true S. I am a political orphan now too. Democrats will have to earn my vote and my trust...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 21, 2010 7:30 pm
Why obtain a weak client state whose government is unpopular and unstable? ...because Iran is far from isolated. It has the full support of the Turks and the SOros wing of the Democratic Party. If the US democratic party insisted on what Hamas is insisting, they might lose their fundings base. However, if a nuclear Iran forced Israel to make concessions by blackmail, the progressives would end up looking good without dirtying their hands
Posted by: Herb at June 21, 2010 7:44 pm
s-5000 - did you see Fareed Zakaria's interview of Danny Ayalon last week? Near the end of the interview he brings up the logic (or lack thereof) behind the restricted items going into Gaza, and he wnats to know why coriander - the spice - is prohibited. And then he says, "that's inhuman"...
inhuman?
What is wrong with that guy? He is afflicted with IDS, I have no doubt.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 7:48 pm
inhuman?
What is wrong with that guy? He is afflicted with IDS, I have no doubt.
Mamzer,
Zakria is not an oracle nor do I agree with him on everything. He's human and sometimes he's wrong, as are we all. But on the essentials, Zakaria is "one of us." He's not an Israel hater. He's asks difficult questions of all his guests. He has integrity; you have to give him that.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:39 pm
Zakria is not an oracle nor do I agree with him on everything. He's human and sometimes he's wrong, as are we all. But on the essentials, Zakaria is "one of us." He's not an Israel hater. He's asks difficult questions of all his guests. He has integrity; you have to give him that.
Herb:
It has the full support of the Turks and the SOros wing of the Democratic Party.
That's a sweeping generalization and over-simplification.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:40 pm
It has the full support of the Turks and the SOros wing of the Democratic Party.
That's a sweeping generalization and over-simplification.
I've also seen/read instances when Zakaria was, what one would call, pro-Israel. He understands radical Islam and has come out against it over and over. If you look at his views on a whole, he's on our side. He's pro-American, pro-Western, doesn't doubt or deny Israel's legitimacy and in general he's a serious thinker who has integrity, agree with him all the time or not.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:43 pm
semite5000: Zakria is not an oracle nor do I agree with him on everything. He's human and sometimes he's wrong, as are we all. But on the essentials, Zakaria is "one of us." He's not an Israel hater. He's asks difficult questions of all his guests. He has integrity; you have to give him that.
I give him props, no doubt there. That's why I thought he diminished himself greatly as a journalist and as a foreign policy pro with stuff like that. If Christiane Amanpour had said it, shyeah, what would I have expected?
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 8:51 pm
I give him props, no doubt there. That's why I thought he diminished himself greatly as a journalist and as a foreign policy pro with stuff like that. If Christiane Amanpour had said it, shyeah, what would I have expected?
I think Fareed Zakaria's "GPS" is one of the most informative and sober political talk shows out there. I highly recommend it to any MJT reader.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:51 pm
Mamzer,
I, too, was disappointed with the interview, and I also thought he could have grilled Ahmet Davutoğlu a bit harder the week before. But overall, Zakaria is top-notich.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:54 pm
I, too, was disappointed with the interview, and I also thought he could have grilled Ahmet Davutoğlu a bit harder the week before. But overall, Zakaria is top-notich.
And he has great guests, some of the most influential and important people on the world stage and some of great pundits.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 21, 2010 8:55 pm
Those I know here are very upset at Erdogan's drift. They are some of the nicest people I have met which has made it hard for me to fathom the changes in Turkey.
I've only known one Turk in my life, and he was a Turkish Jew and that was back in the 1980s. So, I'm going by the fact that Erdogan is popular in Turkey, that his political party is popular in Turkey, and that his belligerent and threatening speeches and news interviews have made him MORE popular, not less. I've made the mistake before of taking Arabs and Iranians I know or that I follow online as being representative samples. I won't make that mistake again. Turkey has already gone over to the dark side as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think there's any coming back from it.
Obama should have fired everyone who counseled him to green-light Turkish militancy. Instead, he seems to have fired everyone else. Baffling, and I wonder what he thinks he is up to? Is he TRYING to start a regional (or worse) war?
Posted by: Craig at June 21, 2010 9:00 pm
I've only known one Turk in my life, and he was a Turkish Jew and that was back in the 1980s. So, I'm going by the fact that Erdogan is popular in Turkey, that his political party is popular in Turkey, and that his belligerent and threatening speeches and news interviews have made him MORE popular, not less. I've made the mistake before of taking Arabs and Iranians I know or that I follow online as being representative samples. I won't make that mistake again. Turkey has already gone over to the dark side as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think there's any coming back from it.
Obama should have fired everyone who counseled him to green-light Turkish militancy. Instead, he seems to have fired everyone else. Baffling, and I wonder what he thinks he is up to? Is he TRYING to start a regional (or worse) war?
Craig: Baffling, and I wonder what he thinks he is up to? Is he TRYING to start a regional (or worse) war?
I've come to the conclusion that he's a malevolent nincompoop.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 9:17 pm
I've come to the conclusion that he's a malevolent nincompoop.
BHO is a shallow, lightweight, foolish and incompetent narcissist and way out of his league, in my humble opinion.
I don't have much respect for Fareed Zakaria, either. Obama and Zakaria are a couple of peas from the same post-modern-preening-hipster pod.
But don't get me wrong: I like garden peas, especially peas-in-the-pod. Dwarf Grey Sugar and Snowbird have done well for me.
Posted by: del at June 21, 2010 9:27 pm
I don't have much respect for Fareed Zakaria, either. Obama and Zakaria are a couple of peas from the same post-modern-preening-hipster pod.
But don't get me wrong: I like garden peas, especially peas-in-the-pod. Dwarf Grey Sugar and Snowbird have done well for me.
@Craig
Obviously, if you were just using that kind of language to make a point, then it was wrong of me to say that and I apologize. I have to say you make a mean impression. But I still have to disagree with your point of view.
@Maxtrue
Have I said that you (or Craig) commited heinous acts? I said if anyone would use their ideology to justify commiting heinous acts, they would be on the same level as him (or rather the person he imitated to be).
I have no problem with someone dishing out Erdogan. What I'm against is using what Erdogan was saying to justify inane things.
And of course I don't put some blogger on the same level of responsibility with Erdogan - but to each his own and everyone is responsible for what they say. Like wishing Erdogan to be hanged...
@Others
What makes him "my" Erdogan? Who says I share his point of view?
Posted by: Fzl at June 21, 2010 9:33 pm
Obviously, if you were just using that kind of language to make a point, then it was wrong of me to say that and I apologize. I have to say you make a mean impression. But I still have to disagree with your point of view.
@Maxtrue
Have I said that you (or Craig) commited heinous acts? I said if anyone would use their ideology to justify commiting heinous acts, they would be on the same level as him (or rather the person he imitated to be).
I have no problem with someone dishing out Erdogan. What I'm against is using what Erdogan was saying to justify inane things.
And of course I don't put some blogger on the same level of responsibility with Erdogan - but to each his own and everyone is responsible for what they say. Like wishing Erdogan to be hanged...
@Others
What makes him "my" Erdogan? Who says I share his point of view?
Fzl: Like wishing Erdogan to be hanged...
For what it's worth, I hold Erdogan partly responsible for the deaths of those violent Turks on the ship, and the horrible injuries to the Israeli soldiers - cracked skulls, stabbing wounds to the abdomen, etc. He is an enabler of terrorism and an accessory to attempted murder, at the very least.
The path he is taking his country down is one that will destroy lives and hurt many innocent people. When a head of state cynically manipulates genocidal hatred for his own ambition is when he puts himself on the level of a Mussolini, and worse. So yeah, swinging from a wire like Mussolini doesn't seem too harsh any more, and begins to look appropriate.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 21, 2010 10:33 pm
For what it's worth, I hold Erdogan partly responsible for the deaths of those violent Turks on the ship, and the horrible injuries to the Israeli soldiers - cracked skulls, stabbing wounds to the abdomen, etc. He is an enabler of terrorism and an accessory to attempted murder, at the very least.
The path he is taking his country down is one that will destroy lives and hurt many innocent people. When a head of state cynically manipulates genocidal hatred for his own ambition is when he puts himself on the level of a Mussolini, and worse. So yeah, swinging from a wire like Mussolini doesn't seem too harsh any more, and begins to look appropriate.
Mamzer has a point, Fzi. I don't think you see the gravity in what Erdogan and his party is doing. Craig may be right if he isn't stopped this coming election. After playing along with the West during the Cold War, once again Turkey looks towards two of the greatest threats to the West: Iran and terrorism (in the form of Hamas/Hizb'Allah).
They should know better. http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/22/turkey.bombing/?hpt=T1
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=179090 This Island for Iran is what Erdogan is helping to create.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 4:13 am
They should know better. http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/22/turkey.bombing/?hpt=T1
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=179090 This Island for Iran is what Erdogan is helping to create.
http://rt.com/Politics/2010-06-22/us-supreme-court-upholds.html
I would have no problem with arresting Jimmy. I do not think this law covers negotiating peace agreements. I do think a case can be made against Ayers and McKinney. Are Republicans demanding Holder act?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 4:16 am
I would have no problem with arresting Jimmy. I do not think this law covers negotiating peace agreements. I do think a case can be made against Ayers and McKinney. Are Republicans demanding Holder act?
"Like wishing Erdogan to be hanged..."
Sorry, I am prone to wishful thinking, but deep down inside of me I feel it will not happen.
Posted by: leo at June 22, 2010 4:47 am
Sorry, I am prone to wishful thinking, but deep down inside of me I feel it will not happen.
Fzi, one more.
If you are Turk and if you love your country I think you should share this sentiment:
"... wishing Erdogan to be hanged..."
Posted by: leo at June 22, 2010 4:51 am
If you are Turk and if you love your country I think you should share this sentiment:
"... wishing Erdogan to be hanged..."
Name the most odious elements in Iran, and then compare them to the most odious elements in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
since you asked:
The most odious elements outside of Iran would have to be Iran-supported Hezbollah in Lebanon, a terrorist organization masquerading as a political group within Lebanon. Hezbollah, like Hamas (supported by both Iran and Saudi Arabia) and like terrorist organizations in the West Bank (also supported by Saudi Arabia), is responsible for launching a number of terrorist attacks against Israeli and Lebanese civilians.
This terrorist organization, like all Saudi/Iranian terrorist organizations, is incapable of winning an offensive or defensive war. Their only power comes from their ability to extort concessions from more powerful countries.
Inside of Iran, the most odious element is the IRI. The IRI, along with Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski, is responsible for the Hostage Crisis. They, with Russia, also supported the mob/terrorist Mahdi Army, led by Muqtada Al Sadr, which gained power by opposing the Saudi-led al Qaeda in Iraq. Nothing IRI has done to other countries is comparable to the pain caused the citizens of Iran. The majority of Iranians oppose the IRI. Considering the fact that the Iranian government will punish Iranians citizens, or their relatives, for protesting against the Mulluhocracy, it's amazing to witness the bravery of the Iranians protesting in the streets of Iran and worldwide. Although the government clearly supports terrorism and related whiny bully strategies of extortion, it's obvious that the Iranian people do not.
In contrast, one month after 9/11, according to a CNN poll, 95% of educated Saudis supported bin Laden's goals.
According to a very liberal, multi-culti woman who was living and teaching in Saudi Arabia at the time, Saudis celebrated the 9/11 attacks. She was so disgusted by the fact that her students, young girls, were celebrating the murder of thousands of Americans, she asked her husband if they could move to the US. Contrary to the usual cliches about Saudi men, he agreed with his wife and they left.
Wealthy Saudis are the chief financiers of worldwide terror networks. “If I could somehow snap my fingers and cut off the funding from one country, it would be Saudi Arabia,” said Stuart Levey, the US Treasury official in charge of tracking terror financing.
In 2007, Saudis made up 55% of foreign fighters in Iraq. They were also among the most uncompromising and militant.
When Saudi students study abroad, they often join Muslim student groups that are organized by the Muslim Brotherhood, the fascist/Islamist group that goes by names like CAIR, ISNA (in the USA) and Hizb-ut-Tahrir in Europe. Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Brotherhood. Saudi government terror charities and individual Saudis are often the sole providers of support for these groups.
Sheikh Saleh al-Luhaidan, the chief justice, who oversees terrorist trials, was recorded on tape in a mosque in 2004, encouraging young men to fight in Iraq. He did this while King Abdullah was in Texas hugging then-President Bush. When Abdullah returned to the KSA, he promoted al Luhaidan for his efforts.
Between April 1998 and May 2002, some $51-73,000 in checks and cashier's checks were provided by the Saudi Ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar and his wife to two families in southern California, who in turn bankrolled at least two of the 9/11 hijackers.
Saudi charities like the al-Haramain Foundation finances sunni terrorism worldwide. After 9/11, Al Haramain, like the majority of Saudi Charities, was classified as a financier of terrorism, so the Saudis changed the names of al Haramian's various branches and continued to operate.
Another Saudi terror charity organization IHH, is responsible for supporting Erdogan's rise to power. From the Weekly Standard:
The Turkish nonprofit belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella organization known to finance terrorism called the Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir in Arabic). Notably, the Union is chaired by Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who is known best for his religious ruling that encourages suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. According to one report, Qardawi personally transferred millions of dollars to the Union in an effort to provide financial support to Hamas.
In 2008, the Israelis banned IHH, along with 35 other Islamist charities worldwide, for its ties to the Union of Good. This was a follow-on designation; Israelis first blocked the Union of Good from operating in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002.
Interestingly, the Union of Good may not only be tied to Hamas. Included in the Israeli list of 36 designees was the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO). In 2006, both the U.S. government and the United Nations designated the IIRO branch offices in Indonesia and the Philippines for financing al Qaeda. French magistrate Jean-Louis Brougiere also testified that IHH had an "important role" in Ahmed Ressam's failed "millennium plot" to bomb the Los Angeles airport in late 1999.
Pakistan's intelligence agency is responsible for training and supervising Taliban activities. Other terrorist groups within Pakistan are supported by various mob/terrorist groups like Dawood Ibrahim, an Indian-born mobster who is thought to be responsible for the Mumbai attacks. According to the Asia Times, “Dawood is…suspected of orchestrating the November 26 Mumbai terrorist strikes through a businessman in Saudi Arabia said to be his frontman. Dawood’s underworld connects and business ventures are extensive. And he sublets his name in Pakistan, Thailand, South Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates, among other countries, to franchises in the fields of drug trafficking and gambling dens.
Pakistani and Saudi terrorist groups are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. They are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths worldwide. They will be responsible for the deaths of many more, yet our government (Democrats and Republicans) will continue to call them allies, and they will continue to downplay their involvement in worldwide terrorism, in order to maintain our 'friendship' with the allies/terrorists who are responsible for maintaining equilibrium in the Middle East.
Posted by: Mary Madigan at June 22, 2010 6:35 am
since you asked:
The most odious elements outside of Iran would have to be Iran-supported Hezbollah in Lebanon, a terrorist organization masquerading as a political group within Lebanon. Hezbollah, like Hamas (supported by both Iran and Saudi Arabia) and like terrorist organizations in the West Bank (also supported by Saudi Arabia), is responsible for launching a number of terrorist attacks against Israeli and Lebanese civilians.
This terrorist organization, like all Saudi/Iranian terrorist organizations, is incapable of winning an offensive or defensive war. Their only power comes from their ability to extort concessions from more powerful countries.
Inside of Iran, the most odious element is the IRI. The IRI, along with Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski, is responsible for the Hostage Crisis. They, with Russia, also supported the mob/terrorist Mahdi Army, led by Muqtada Al Sadr, which gained power by opposing the Saudi-led al Qaeda in Iraq. Nothing IRI has done to other countries is comparable to the pain caused the citizens of Iran. The majority of Iranians oppose the IRI. Considering the fact that the Iranian government will punish Iranians citizens, or their relatives, for protesting against the Mulluhocracy, it's amazing to witness the bravery of the Iranians protesting in the streets of Iran and worldwide. Although the government clearly supports terrorism and related whiny bully strategies of extortion, it's obvious that the Iranian people do not.
In contrast, one month after 9/11, according to a CNN poll, 95% of educated Saudis supported bin Laden's goals.
According to a very liberal, multi-culti woman who was living and teaching in Saudi Arabia at the time, Saudis celebrated the 9/11 attacks. She was so disgusted by the fact that her students, young girls, were celebrating the murder of thousands of Americans, she asked her husband if they could move to the US. Contrary to the usual cliches about Saudi men, he agreed with his wife and they left.
Wealthy Saudis are the chief financiers of worldwide terror networks. “If I could somehow snap my fingers and cut off the funding from one country, it would be Saudi Arabia,” said Stuart Levey, the US Treasury official in charge of tracking terror financing.
In 2007, Saudis made up 55% of foreign fighters in Iraq. They were also among the most uncompromising and militant.
When Saudi students study abroad, they often join Muslim student groups that are organized by the Muslim Brotherhood, the fascist/Islamist group that goes by names like CAIR, ISNA (in the USA) and Hizb-ut-Tahrir in Europe. Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Brotherhood. Saudi government terror charities and individual Saudis are often the sole providers of support for these groups.
Sheikh Saleh al-Luhaidan, the chief justice, who oversees terrorist trials, was recorded on tape in a mosque in 2004, encouraging young men to fight in Iraq. He did this while King Abdullah was in Texas hugging then-President Bush. When Abdullah returned to the KSA, he promoted al Luhaidan for his efforts.
Between April 1998 and May 2002, some $51-73,000 in checks and cashier's checks were provided by the Saudi Ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar and his wife to two families in southern California, who in turn bankrolled at least two of the 9/11 hijackers.
Saudi charities like the al-Haramain Foundation finances sunni terrorism worldwide. After 9/11, Al Haramain, like the majority of Saudi Charities, was classified as a financier of terrorism, so the Saudis changed the names of al Haramian's various branches and continued to operate.
Another Saudi terror charity organization IHH, is responsible for supporting Erdogan's rise to power. From the Weekly Standard:
The Turkish nonprofit belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella organization known to finance terrorism called the Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir in Arabic). Notably, the Union is chaired by Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who is known best for his religious ruling that encourages suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. According to one report, Qardawi personally transferred millions of dollars to the Union in an effort to provide financial support to Hamas.
In 2008, the Israelis banned IHH, along with 35 other Islamist charities worldwide, for its ties to the Union of Good. This was a follow-on designation; Israelis first blocked the Union of Good from operating in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002.
Interestingly, the Union of Good may not only be tied to Hamas. Included in the Israeli list of 36 designees was the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO). In 2006, both the U.S. government and the United Nations designated the IIRO branch offices in Indonesia and the Philippines for financing al Qaeda. French magistrate Jean-Louis Brougiere also testified that IHH had an "important role" in Ahmed Ressam's failed "millennium plot" to bomb the Los Angeles airport in late 1999.
Pakistan's intelligence agency is responsible for training and supervising Taliban activities. Other terrorist groups within Pakistan are supported by various mob/terrorist groups like Dawood Ibrahim, an Indian-born mobster who is thought to be responsible for the Mumbai attacks. According to the Asia Times, “Dawood is…suspected of orchestrating the November 26 Mumbai terrorist strikes through a businessman in Saudi Arabia said to be his frontman. Dawood’s underworld connects and business ventures are extensive. And he sublets his name in Pakistan, Thailand, South Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates, among other countries, to franchises in the fields of drug trafficking and gambling dens.
Pakistani and Saudi terrorist groups are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. They are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths worldwide. They will be responsible for the deaths of many more, yet our government (Democrats and Republicans) will continue to call them allies, and they will continue to downplay their involvement in worldwide terrorism, in order to maintain our 'friendship' with the allies/terrorists who are responsible for maintaining equilibrium in the Middle East.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10372558.stm
When I speak of cracks within the administration, I also refer to this.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 6:55 am
When I speak of cracks within the administration, I also refer to this.....
http://online.wsj.com/community/groups/obama-administration-250/topics/should-gen-stanley-mcchrystal-lose
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-fg-mcchrystal-20100622,0,3049196.story LAT reports only Hillary Clinton received good reviews from the general and his aides.....
Like some of us thought. So there is a tough game going on behind the scenes and perhaps Hillary can keep this general from getting the boot.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 7:06 am
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-fg-mcchrystal-20100622,0,3049196.story LAT reports only Hillary Clinton received good reviews from the general and his aides.....
Like some of us thought. So there is a tough game going on behind the scenes and perhaps Hillary can keep this general from getting the boot.....
L'l Mamzer,
"...When a head of state cynically manipulates genocidal hatred for his own ambition..."
Yeah, but it is not only for his own ambition, and he is not exactly cynical.
Erdogan is a pious believer in a certain religio-political ideology, [must not be named]. His own ego and ambition is wrapped up in his felt duty to struggle for this, [must not be named]. "Cynicism" is your projection upon him. If he were a "westerner", then your projection might well be accurate, but he is not.
Posted by: del at June 22, 2010 7:07 am
"...When a head of state cynically manipulates genocidal hatred for his own ambition..."
Yeah, but it is not only for his own ambition, and he is not exactly cynical.
Erdogan is a pious believer in a certain religio-political ideology, [must not be named]. His own ego and ambition is wrapped up in his felt duty to struggle for this, [must not be named]. "Cynicism" is your projection upon him. If he were a "westerner", then your projection might well be accurate, but he is not.
Mary Madigan,
You wrote that the Muslim Brotherhood in the US includes CAIR, and ISNA. Also, it includes MAS (Muslim American Society), MSA (Muslim Student Association)...
Posted by: del at June 22, 2010 7:22 am
You wrote that the Muslim Brotherhood in the US includes CAIR, and ISNA. Also, it includes MAS (Muslim American Society), MSA (Muslim Student Association)...
http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2010/04/national-security-adviser-jones-jews.html
And the smack down of Jones was quite funny. Not sure of when Jones made his remark about the French "gay" event, but he is certainly not thrilled with gays in the military.
And remember Biden's brilliant plan to just bomb the Taliban? Even the Press blasted Biden. Yep, just more drones, something Hillary was against....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 7:28 am
And the smack down of Jones was quite funny. Not sure of when Jones made his remark about the French "gay" event, but he is certainly not thrilled with gays in the military.
And remember Biden's brilliant plan to just bomb the Taliban? Even the Press blasted Biden. Yep, just more drones, something Hillary was against....
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/turkey--from-ally-to-enemy-15464
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 7:50 am
You wrote that the Muslim Brotherhood in the US includes CAIR, and ISNA. Also, it includes MAS (Muslim American Society), MSA (Muslim Student Association)...
Yes it does. Here's a helpful map of a portion the terror-finance network
Posted by: Mary Madigan at June 22, 2010 7:53 am
Yes it does. Here's a helpful map of a portion the terror-finance network
http://defensetech.org/2010/06/22/mcchrystal-versus-white-house-flame-war-gets-ugly/#more-7796
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 8:00 am
Mary:
I was hoping to give anan a few more hours to come up with a response (when pigs fly, I know)....anyway, thanks for that.
===============
del:
Points well-taken. I suppose I am guilty of projecting more 'western' values. I am not much different than the dupes here in the western world, I guess, in that regard. I see Erdogan in a business suit, never in traditional garb, and I misjudge, perhaps, the religious fervor driving his agenda. Complacency is a dangerous thing - don't let it happen to you :)
.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 22, 2010 8:00 am
I was hoping to give anan a few more hours to come up with a response (when pigs fly, I know)....anyway, thanks for that.
===============
del:
Points well-taken. I suppose I am guilty of projecting more 'western' values. I am not much different than the dupes here in the western world, I guess, in that regard. I see Erdogan in a business suit, never in traditional garb, and I misjudge, perhaps, the religious fervor driving his agenda. Complacency is a dangerous thing - don't let it happen to you :)
.
From your article, Max (reposting it here)
General Stanley McChrystal summoned over article claims
The top US commander in Afghanistan has been summoned to Washington in the wake of a magazine article that quotes him and aides criticising senior Obama administration officials and diplomats.
It's an interesting article. And interesting behavior on McChystal's part. Last year he launched a public smear campaign against the United States Marine Corps and the way it operates, further complaining he wasn't given enough direct control over Marines in Afghanistan. I think he was doing that so could insulate himself from criticism if ops involving Marines didn't go well.
So this using of back-channels to ridicule is not anything new for this particular General. In this case he's obviously gone too far and I believe he knows it, and knew it before hand. I suspect he wants to be replaced and if so the only explanation I can think of is that he'd rather be remembered as the General who went against US policy in Afghanistan and got fired than as the General who lost the war.
All just supposition on my part, of course. I've seen people who were leading high profile projects which were obviously headed for disaster deliberately get themselves shit-canned before, so I know it does happen. I guess to a certain way of thinking its better to be able to say "Yeah, I knew where that was going and I tried to tell them, but they didn't wanna hear it!" than to be known as the guy who got hired to deliver miracle-product_x but instead caused the company to go out of business.
Still, it's surprisingly bad behavior from a military officer. Whatever happened to falling on your sword? Or maybe he actually believes that's what he is doing?
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 9:06 am
General Stanley McChrystal summoned over article claims
The top US commander in Afghanistan has been summoned to Washington in the wake of a magazine article that quotes him and aides criticising senior Obama administration officials and diplomats.
It's an interesting article. And interesting behavior on McChystal's part. Last year he launched a public smear campaign against the United States Marine Corps and the way it operates, further complaining he wasn't given enough direct control over Marines in Afghanistan. I think he was doing that so could insulate himself from criticism if ops involving Marines didn't go well.
So this using of back-channels to ridicule is not anything new for this particular General. In this case he's obviously gone too far and I believe he knows it, and knew it before hand. I suspect he wants to be replaced and if so the only explanation I can think of is that he'd rather be remembered as the General who went against US policy in Afghanistan and got fired than as the General who lost the war.
All just supposition on my part, of course. I've seen people who were leading high profile projects which were obviously headed for disaster deliberately get themselves shit-canned before, so I know it does happen. I guess to a certain way of thinking its better to be able to say "Yeah, I knew where that was going and I tried to tell them, but they didn't wanna hear it!" than to be known as the guy who got hired to deliver miracle-product_x but instead caused the company to go out of business.
Still, it's surprisingly bad behavior from a military officer. Whatever happened to falling on your sword? Or maybe he actually believes that's what he is doing?
Maxtrue and Mazer:
Saying the path he chose will hurt many innocent people is one thing (which I agree by the way). But what makes him an accessory to murder and enabler of terrorism? What has he done to 'manipulate genocidal hatred?'. That description fits Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, but does it fit people like Erdogan (or like Salam Fayyad)?
Leo:
I am a Turk, but I'm not in the habit of wishing death upon people whom I disagree with. Perhaps you should look at it like this: If Erdogan were gone, who would come to power? Do you think that the opposition in Turkey is friendly to Israel? to the West? Do you think that Erdogan (and his party) is the only domestic faction influencing Turkey's foreign policy?
The way Turkey is perceived here doesn't reflect how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey.
Posted by: Fzl at June 22, 2010 9:12 am
Saying the path he chose will hurt many innocent people is one thing (which I agree by the way). But what makes him an accessory to murder and enabler of terrorism? What has he done to 'manipulate genocidal hatred?'. That description fits Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, but does it fit people like Erdogan (or like Salam Fayyad)?
Leo:
I am a Turk, but I'm not in the habit of wishing death upon people whom I disagree with. Perhaps you should look at it like this: If Erdogan were gone, who would come to power? Do you think that the opposition in Turkey is friendly to Israel? to the West? Do you think that Erdogan (and his party) is the only domestic faction influencing Turkey's foreign policy?
The way Turkey is perceived here doesn't reflect how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey.
Max,
And the smack down of Jones was quite funny. Not sure of when Jones made his remark about the French "gay" event, but he is certainly not thrilled with gays in the military.
Well, lets see what the charming McChystal has to say about Jones (from your earlier article):
Another aide refers to National Security Adviser Jones as a "clown stuck in 1985".
Stuck in 1985, eh?
James L. Jones
I wasn't familiar with him, but looking through that wiki it appears to me that his career in the USMC was flawless. His first billet was as a (rifle) platoon commander in Vietnam. He was a Colonel in 1988, and advanced all the way to four star General and Commandant of the Marine Corps in 1999. His entire career was spent either in command of infantry units or in staff positions in DC/Europe(NATO). I don't know how he's doing as National Security Advisor, but McChrystal really needs to STFU up with his "clown stuck in 1985" garbage. Jones' military credentials are far superior to McChrystal's.
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 9:36 am
And the smack down of Jones was quite funny. Not sure of when Jones made his remark about the French "gay" event, but he is certainly not thrilled with gays in the military.
Well, lets see what the charming McChystal has to say about Jones (from your earlier article):
Another aide refers to National Security Adviser Jones as a "clown stuck in 1985".
Stuck in 1985, eh?
James L. Jones
I wasn't familiar with him, but looking through that wiki it appears to me that his career in the USMC was flawless. His first billet was as a (rifle) platoon commander in Vietnam. He was a Colonel in 1988, and advanced all the way to four star General and Commandant of the Marine Corps in 1999. His entire career was spent either in command of infantry units or in staff positions in DC/Europe(NATO). I don't know how he's doing as National Security Advisor, but McChrystal really needs to STFU up with his "clown stuck in 1985" garbage. Jones' military credentials are far superior to McChrystal's.
"I am a Turk, but I'm not in the habit of wishing death upon people whom I disagree with. Perhaps you should look at it like this: If Erdogan were gone, who would come to power? Do you think that the opposition in Turkey is friendly to Israel? to the West? Do you think that Erdogan (and his party) is the only domestic faction influencing Turkey's foreign policy?"
First, it is beyond mere disagreement. We all know how to agree to disagree.
Second, I do not concern myself with who is and who is not friendly to Israel and to the West. Turkey was never friendly to Israel, but it was willing to have business with she. I am only concerned with who is willing to kill me or not and Erdogan clearly does.
Third, having Erdogan gone is the best solution for Turkey first of all. Whether Israel and West will benefit from it or not is distant second as far as you should be concerned.
Posted by: leo at June 22, 2010 9:51 am
First, it is beyond mere disagreement. We all know how to agree to disagree.
Second, I do not concern myself with who is and who is not friendly to Israel and to the West. Turkey was never friendly to Israel, but it was willing to have business with she. I am only concerned with who is willing to kill me or not and Erdogan clearly does.
Third, having Erdogan gone is the best solution for Turkey first of all. Whether Israel and West will benefit from it or not is distant second as far as you should be concerned.
Fzl,
You wrote, "The way Turkey is perceived here doesn't reflect how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey."
Ok. Perhaps you would please provide your view of "how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey"?
And - do you currently live in Turkey?
Posted by: del at June 22, 2010 10:21 am
You wrote, "The way Turkey is perceived here doesn't reflect how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey."
Ok. Perhaps you would please provide your view of "how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey"?
And - do you currently live in Turkey?
Fzl: The way Turkey is perceived here doesn't reflect how things currently are and the overall mood in Turkey.
Help us out. You know the place much better than we do. I don't pretend to know much about what's happening inside right now.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 22, 2010 11:55 am
Help us out. You know the place much better than we do. I don't pretend to know much about what's happening inside right now.
Fzl: But what makes him an accessory to murder and enabler of terrorism? What has he done to 'manipulate genocidal hatred?'. That description fits Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, but does it fit people like Erdogan (or like Salam Fayyad)?
My understanding is that the Turkish government had some degree of sponsorship of the flotilla and the IHH component of it. I find it incredible that Erdogan wouldn't have known who the IHH really are, and what they were planning for this incident. I may not be using the term accessory correctly in a legal sense (I'm not an attorney), but he is linked, and should bear significant responsibility for his involvement. I didn't say murder - I said attempted murder. I don't need to be a lawyer to know that what the IHH terrorists did to the Jewish sailors was exactly that.
When Erdogan declares that Hamas is not a terrorist gang (if they aren't, who is), but a 'resistance', that's your genocidal hatred being peddled as something it isn't. Erdogan's a manipulative fucker, isn't he.
To a lesser extent Fayyad plays a similar game. He keeps the coals of Pal Arab terror glowing on the back burner with threats of a "return to resistance", and we all know that means seeking out Jewish children and old women on buses for murder. Genocidal murder.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 22, 2010 12:06 pm
My understanding is that the Turkish government had some degree of sponsorship of the flotilla and the IHH component of it. I find it incredible that Erdogan wouldn't have known who the IHH really are, and what they were planning for this incident. I may not be using the term accessory correctly in a legal sense (I'm not an attorney), but he is linked, and should bear significant responsibility for his involvement. I didn't say murder - I said attempted murder. I don't need to be a lawyer to know that what the IHH terrorists did to the Jewish sailors was exactly that.
When Erdogan declares that Hamas is not a terrorist gang (if they aren't, who is), but a 'resistance', that's your genocidal hatred being peddled as something it isn't. Erdogan's a manipulative fucker, isn't he.
To a lesser extent Fayyad plays a similar game. He keeps the coals of Pal Arab terror glowing on the back burner with threats of a "return to resistance", and we all know that means seeking out Jewish children and old women on buses for murder. Genocidal murder.
Craig, thanks for your perspective. I do agree that McChrystal's vehicle for launching into his slams was strange. It sounds like he wants out, but that doesn't make total sense.
If you look at what Jones has been saying, it strikes me as crap despite the credentials, but then that's my opinion only. Remember what you said about the kind of people Obama surrounds himself. Here is an excerpt from the Rolling Stone article:
"The night before the general is scheduled to visit Sgt. Arroyo’s platoon for the memorial, I arrive at Combat Outpost JFM to speak with the soldiers he had gone on patrol with. JFM is a small encampment, ringed by high blast walls and guard towers. Almost all of the soldiers here have been on repeated combat tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and have seen some of the worst fighting of both wars. But they are especially angered by Ingram’s death. His commanders had repeatedly requested permission to tear down the house where Ingram was killed, noting that it was often used as a combat position by the Taliban. But due to McChrystal’s new restrictions to avoid upsetting civilians, the request had been denied. “These were abandoned houses,” fumes Staff Sgt. Kennith Hicks. “Nobody was coming back to live in them.”
One soldier shows me the list of new regulations the platoon was given. “Patrol only in areas that you are reasonably certain that you will not have to defend yourselves with lethal force,” the laminated card reads. For a soldier who has traveled halfway around the world to fight, that’s like telling a cop he should only patrol in areas where he knows he won’t have to make arrests. “Does that make any f–king sense?” Pfc. Jared Pautsch. “We should just drop a f–king bomb on this place. You sit and ask yourself: What are we doing here?”
Again Craig, based on what I know he has said including his views of Israel and his role as Obama's national security adviser, I can't say I am comfortable. Are you?
Fzi, all my contact with Turks are here in NYC. They are pretty liberal and have been telling me for years that Erdogan is no threat. He was elected on a promise to move the economy, not radicalize Turkey. They tell me many think the trials of military officers are trumped up to give Erdogan leverage. They all seem astonished at what is happening. Erdogan's behavior is giving cover to people who want to kill Israelis. Many want to push way the West. Do you think Assad or Ahmadinejad wishes us well? So a friend to my enemy is what? Erdogan said what to the Israel Prime Minster BEFORE the flotilla left Turkey and then picked up Turkish activists who were planning to be violent? Are you saying Erdogan wasn't an accomplice to those who want death to Israel? He is not responsible for the violence that happened? If this happened here, Erdogan would be a party to criminal charges and his secret conversations subpoenaed. He puts children in prison for throwing rocks and REFUSED TO REJECT Valley of the Wolves as hate speech, nor find fault with a TV program promoting the same blood libel. As the Turkish leader, not denouncing this leads to condoning it. This leads some to commit acts of violence. Why you don't see this as a Turk is beyond me. A president here enabling such garbage would lead to his defeat. His role in such a flotilla would lead to impeachment. His witch hunts of military would be rejected as unconstitutional (the way he did it). His alliances with countries like Syria and Iran would be treason. You just don't seem to be getting it........
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 12:06 pm
If you look at what Jones has been saying, it strikes me as crap despite the credentials, but then that's my opinion only. Remember what you said about the kind of people Obama surrounds himself. Here is an excerpt from the Rolling Stone article:
"The night before the general is scheduled to visit Sgt. Arroyo’s platoon for the memorial, I arrive at Combat Outpost JFM to speak with the soldiers he had gone on patrol with. JFM is a small encampment, ringed by high blast walls and guard towers. Almost all of the soldiers here have been on repeated combat tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and have seen some of the worst fighting of both wars. But they are especially angered by Ingram’s death. His commanders had repeatedly requested permission to tear down the house where Ingram was killed, noting that it was often used as a combat position by the Taliban. But due to McChrystal’s new restrictions to avoid upsetting civilians, the request had been denied. “These were abandoned houses,” fumes Staff Sgt. Kennith Hicks. “Nobody was coming back to live in them.”
One soldier shows me the list of new regulations the platoon was given. “Patrol only in areas that you are reasonably certain that you will not have to defend yourselves with lethal force,” the laminated card reads. For a soldier who has traveled halfway around the world to fight, that’s like telling a cop he should only patrol in areas where he knows he won’t have to make arrests. “Does that make any f–king sense?” Pfc. Jared Pautsch. “We should just drop a f–king bomb on this place. You sit and ask yourself: What are we doing here?”
Again Craig, based on what I know he has said including his views of Israel and his role as Obama's national security adviser, I can't say I am comfortable. Are you?
Fzi, all my contact with Turks are here in NYC. They are pretty liberal and have been telling me for years that Erdogan is no threat. He was elected on a promise to move the economy, not radicalize Turkey. They tell me many think the trials of military officers are trumped up to give Erdogan leverage. They all seem astonished at what is happening. Erdogan's behavior is giving cover to people who want to kill Israelis. Many want to push way the West. Do you think Assad or Ahmadinejad wishes us well? So a friend to my enemy is what? Erdogan said what to the Israel Prime Minster BEFORE the flotilla left Turkey and then picked up Turkish activists who were planning to be violent? Are you saying Erdogan wasn't an accomplice to those who want death to Israel? He is not responsible for the violence that happened? If this happened here, Erdogan would be a party to criminal charges and his secret conversations subpoenaed. He puts children in prison for throwing rocks and REFUSED TO REJECT Valley of the Wolves as hate speech, nor find fault with a TV program promoting the same blood libel. As the Turkish leader, not denouncing this leads to condoning it. This leads some to commit acts of violence. Why you don't see this as a Turk is beyond me. A president here enabling such garbage would lead to his defeat. His role in such a flotilla would lead to impeachment. His witch hunts of military would be rejected as unconstitutional (the way he did it). His alliances with countries like Syria and Iran would be treason. You just don't seem to be getting it........
I should have ended that Fzi with "please explain"........
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 12:09 pm
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/119236
It is a must read....sorry to interject. I guess Afghanistan does have some impact on Turkey.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 12:19 pm
It is a must read....sorry to interject. I guess Afghanistan does have some impact on Turkey.....
Maxtrue,
Craig, thanks for your perspective. I do agree that McChrystal's vehicle for launching into his slams was strange. It sounds like he wants out, but that doesn't make total sense.
It was last year when I started reading all the "indictments" of the USMC in the press that seemed to be coming out of the Army brass in Afghanistan and went on to read how McChrystal had sought authority to break apart the traditional Marine Air/Ground combat teams so that he could cherry-pick Marine units that I turned vocally against the Afghanistan effort. I figured if he can't even keep the peace between different elements of the US military in Afghanistan, what hope is there of winning the war? And now it seems that he can't keep the peace between his own military command and the civilian leadership he reports to. Again, what hope of victory is there under such circumstances?
In any case, it seems clear to me he is no stranger to such tactics.
If you look at what Jones has been saying, it strikes me as crap despite the credentials, but then that's my opinion only.
I don't know what he's been up to as National Security Advisor. I'm assuming that since McChrystal is the darling of the COINdinistas and McChystal just savaged Jones, that Jones isn't in that camp. I suppose I could be wrong.
Remember what you said about the kind of people Obama surrounds himself. Here is an excerpt from the Rolling Stone article:
...
Again Craig, based on what I know he has said including his views of Israel and his role as Obama's national security adviser...
The snippet you provided seemed to be about McChystal. Are you suggesting those orders came from Jones? Jones spent 40 years in the Marine Corps and retired as Commandant. Considering McChrystal's obvious antipathy towards Marines, and his obvious antipathy towards Jones, I highly doubt that McChrystal is implementing rules of engagement specifically for Army units (and not Marines) that came from Jones. Doesn't make any sense at all. McChrystal has been complaining vocally about how Marines refuse to do things his way, and I'd be SHOCKED if a former Commandant of the Marine Corps came down on the side of an Army general in a pissing contest he initiated with the USMC as an institution.
I can't say I am comfortable. Are you?
I'm not comfortable with anything the Obama Administration is doing anymore. I was OK with their foreign policy for a while... or at least, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt... but that was a while ago. The first really big red flag for me was when Obama didn't use his bully pulpit to support the opposition in Iran last summer. He could have helped, and it would have cost him nothing, and yet he chose to stay quiet.
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 1:15 pm
Craig, thanks for your perspective. I do agree that McChrystal's vehicle for launching into his slams was strange. It sounds like he wants out, but that doesn't make total sense.
It was last year when I started reading all the "indictments" of the USMC in the press that seemed to be coming out of the Army brass in Afghanistan and went on to read how McChrystal had sought authority to break apart the traditional Marine Air/Ground combat teams so that he could cherry-pick Marine units that I turned vocally against the Afghanistan effort. I figured if he can't even keep the peace between different elements of the US military in Afghanistan, what hope is there of winning the war? And now it seems that he can't keep the peace between his own military command and the civilian leadership he reports to. Again, what hope of victory is there under such circumstances?
In any case, it seems clear to me he is no stranger to such tactics.
If you look at what Jones has been saying, it strikes me as crap despite the credentials, but then that's my opinion only.
I don't know what he's been up to as National Security Advisor. I'm assuming that since McChrystal is the darling of the COINdinistas and McChystal just savaged Jones, that Jones isn't in that camp. I suppose I could be wrong.
Remember what you said about the kind of people Obama surrounds himself. Here is an excerpt from the Rolling Stone article:
...
Again Craig, based on what I know he has said including his views of Israel and his role as Obama's national security adviser...
The snippet you provided seemed to be about McChystal. Are you suggesting those orders came from Jones? Jones spent 40 years in the Marine Corps and retired as Commandant. Considering McChrystal's obvious antipathy towards Marines, and his obvious antipathy towards Jones, I highly doubt that McChrystal is implementing rules of engagement specifically for Army units (and not Marines) that came from Jones. Doesn't make any sense at all. McChrystal has been complaining vocally about how Marines refuse to do things his way, and I'd be SHOCKED if a former Commandant of the Marine Corps came down on the side of an Army general in a pissing contest he initiated with the USMC as an institution.
I can't say I am comfortable. Are you?
I'm not comfortable with anything the Obama Administration is doing anymore. I was OK with their foreign policy for a while... or at least, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt... but that was a while ago. The first really big red flag for me was when Obama didn't use his bully pulpit to support the opposition in Iran last summer. He could have helped, and it would have cost him nothing, and yet he chose to stay quiet.
From the Rolling Stones article:
McChrystal is in Paris to keep the French, who have lost more than 40 soldiers in Afghanistan, from going all wobbly on him.
Isn't that about how many they lost in World War II before they decided to surrender? I'm shocked that with such high casualty rates, the French are even still in Afghanistan at all.
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 1:22 pm
McChrystal is in Paris to keep the French, who have lost more than 40 soldiers in Afghanistan, from going all wobbly on him.
Isn't that about how many they lost in World War II before they decided to surrender? I'm shocked that with such high casualty rates, the French are even still in Afghanistan at all.
Interesting comments Craig. Sorry, I meant the link to Jone's joke about the Jews, not the quote I supplied. That was to point to the frustration of Obama pushed COIN strategy. Patraeus must have signed on to this too. The rules of engagement did come from the top. I didn't hear Jones say anything about the problems in Afghanistan though the administration was trashing Karsai at one point. Again, I think the administration pushed for the present plan and they found a guy to do it. McChrystal obviously feels the administration which includes Jones has undermined his efforts.
Michael Yon (guest) FL:
Have been calling for Gen. McChrystal to be fired for about the last two months. The man might have been great in special operations but is over his head in Afghanistan. McChrystal simply cannot handle this war. Politico comments
http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/2010/6/22/michael-yons-criticism-of-mcchrystal-deemed-prophetic.html
Quite complicated.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 1:27 pm
Michael Yon (guest) FL:
Have been calling for Gen. McChrystal to be fired for about the last two months. The man might have been great in special operations but is over his head in Afghanistan. McChrystal simply cannot handle this war. Politico comments
http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/2010/6/22/michael-yons-criticism-of-mcchrystal-deemed-prophetic.html
Quite complicated.....
Lol...you're funny. Have Turks taken losses or are they forbidden by their Erdogan from shooting at Muslims (unless they are Kurds)?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 1:29 pm
Max,
Interesting comments Craig. Sorry, I meant the link to Jone's joke about the Jews, not the quote I supplied.
Ah, OK. Dunno what to make of that joke. I assume since he had to know that most of the audience was Jewish, that he thought he was being funny. I doubt he was deliberately trying to offend, though it's interesting how such gaffes can expose somebody's biases.
That was to point to the frustration of Obama pushed COIN strategy. Patraeus must have signed on to this too.
I think you have it backwards. Petraeus is widely credited with developing current COIN doctrine, before Obama was even in office. McChrystal is his hand-picked man to make it work in Afghanistan. Obama was sold on the plan by the COINdinistas. It didn't originate in the White House and then get filtered down to the DoD.
The rules of engagement did come from the top. I didn't hear Jones say anything about the problems in Afghanistan though the administration was trashing Karsai at one point.
Well, when McChrystal got into trouble attacking Joe Biden, he was angry specifically because Joe Biden thought the US should focus on counter-terrorism in Afghanistan rather than COIN. McChystal ridiculed that strategy and Obama had to intervene. That was last year. I'd be willing to bet that most the people McChrystal is attacking are opponents of how he wants to implement COIN. But you seem to think it's those very people he is attacking who are responsible for his COIN tactics.
Again, I think you have it completely backwards. But that's understandable, considering how much bullshit McChrystal is slinging around.
Anyway....from Rolling Stones:
The White House was furious. McChrystal, they felt, was trying to bully Obama, opening him up to charges of being weak on national security unless he did what the general wanted. It was Obama versus the Pentagon, and the Pentagon was determined to kick the president's ass.
What!? McChrystal using leaks, press interviews, rumors and such shit like that to try to force people to do things his way? Way back in 2009? I don't believe it. Must have been somebody else!
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 1:46 pm
Interesting comments Craig. Sorry, I meant the link to Jone's joke about the Jews, not the quote I supplied.
Ah, OK. Dunno what to make of that joke. I assume since he had to know that most of the audience was Jewish, that he thought he was being funny. I doubt he was deliberately trying to offend, though it's interesting how such gaffes can expose somebody's biases.
That was to point to the frustration of Obama pushed COIN strategy. Patraeus must have signed on to this too.
I think you have it backwards. Petraeus is widely credited with developing current COIN doctrine, before Obama was even in office. McChrystal is his hand-picked man to make it work in Afghanistan. Obama was sold on the plan by the COINdinistas. It didn't originate in the White House and then get filtered down to the DoD.
The rules of engagement did come from the top. I didn't hear Jones say anything about the problems in Afghanistan though the administration was trashing Karsai at one point.
Well, when McChrystal got into trouble attacking Joe Biden, he was angry specifically because Joe Biden thought the US should focus on counter-terrorism in Afghanistan rather than COIN. McChystal ridiculed that strategy and Obama had to intervene. That was last year. I'd be willing to bet that most the people McChrystal is attacking are opponents of how he wants to implement COIN. But you seem to think it's those very people he is attacking who are responsible for his COIN tactics.
Again, I think you have it completely backwards. But that's understandable, considering how much bullshit McChrystal is slinging around.
Anyway....from Rolling Stones:
The White House was furious. McChrystal, they felt, was trying to bully Obama, opening him up to charges of being weak on national security unless he did what the general wanted. It was Obama versus the Pentagon, and the Pentagon was determined to kick the president's ass.
What!? McChrystal using leaks, press interviews, rumors and such shit like that to try to force people to do things his way? Way back in 2009? I don't believe it. Must have been somebody else!
The End
This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again
Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need...of some...stranger's hand
In a...desperate land
Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 4:16 pm
This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again
Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need...of some...stranger's hand
In a...desperate land
Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
From The Beginning
There might have been things I missed
But don't be unkind
It don't mean I'm blind
Perhaps there's a thing or two
I think of lying in bed
I shouldn't have said
But there it is
You see it's all clear
You were meant to be here
From the beginning
Maybe I might have changed
And not been so cruel
Not been such a fool
Whatever was done is done
I just can't recall
It doesn't matter at all
You see it's all clear
You were meant to be here
From the beginning
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 22, 2010 5:25 pm
There might have been things I missed
But don't be unkind
It don't mean I'm blind
Perhaps there's a thing or two
I think of lying in bed
I shouldn't have said
But there it is
You see it's all clear
You were meant to be here
From the beginning
Maybe I might have changed
And not been so cruel
Not been such a fool
Whatever was done is done
I just can't recall
It doesn't matter at all
You see it's all clear
You were meant to be here
From the beginning
Craig, I know I sounded incoherent. Patreaus hit terrorists hard during the surge. I know from someone doing the hitting.It was not just the Great Awakening. Why has our offensive slowed? I think the rules of engagement McChrystal is dealing are tougher, the area larger. The supply lines lead out of country. Even Biden said the surge in Afghanistan is different as is the COIN required. What Biden suggested was drone bombing and little hold or security for citizens. My understanding that in Iraq there was much more force and far better local support.
I guess McChyrstal is suggesting counter-terrorism thrusts, a kess restricted COIN and the time and troops to do it. I don't know why he thought Obama would do this beyond his being picked for the task....lol
McChyrstal threatened to resign in 2009. Klein reports McChyrstal offered his resignation. I suspect Obama may not accept it. That would depend if the cause of the rift can be healed. Ovama can forgive the humbled general IF they can agree.
The down side for Obama should he boot McChyrstal should be obvious. He certainly gave Rev Wright more slack......and McChyrstal didn't call Obama "just a politician". By the way, it was an aide to McC that referred to a dinner event as "gay", not Jones. Based on his resistance to gays in the military, I had thought Jones made that remark.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 5:45 pm
I guess McChyrstal is suggesting counter-terrorism thrusts, a kess restricted COIN and the time and troops to do it. I don't know why he thought Obama would do this beyond his being picked for the task....lol
McChyrstal threatened to resign in 2009. Klein reports McChyrstal offered his resignation. I suspect Obama may not accept it. That would depend if the cause of the rift can be healed. Ovama can forgive the humbled general IF they can agree.
The down side for Obama should he boot McChyrstal should be obvious. He certainly gave Rev Wright more slack......and McChyrstal didn't call Obama "just a politician". By the way, it was an aide to McC that referred to a dinner event as "gay", not Jones. Based on his resistance to gays in the military, I had thought Jones made that remark.....
http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/
Why McChrystal should stay.....I had similar thoughts....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 5:48 pm
Why McChrystal should stay.....I had similar thoughts....
Obama has only one safe option left to him - promote McChyrstal out of Afghanistan.
Posted by: leo at June 22, 2010 7:44 pm
http://defensetech.org/2010/06/22/mcchrystal-submits-resignation/#idc-container
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 8:25 pm
Nope, that wouldn't work. Either he will likely be canned or he will be forgiven because Obama has no better option....
I think the better move is the latter because many in the military have doubts about Obama. I know Yon would disagree....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 8:27 pm
I think the better move is the latter because many in the military have doubts about Obama. I know Yon would disagree....
Mary Madigan,
You wrote, "Yes it does. Here's a helpful map of a portion the terror-finance network"
Thank you for the link.
Posted by: del at June 22, 2010 8:27 pm
You wrote, "Yes it does. Here's a helpful map of a portion the terror-finance network"
Thank you for the link.
If McChyrstal is canned Obama is left with disgruntled retired general who is no longer have to keep his mouth shut.
If McChyrstal is sent back to Afghanistan Obama can no longer trust that his policies will be executed correctly or even paid attention to.
McChyrstal must be kept from resigning and from Afghanistan. And the only way to do it is with valued promotion.
Posted by: leo at June 22, 2010 9:04 pm
If McChyrstal is sent back to Afghanistan Obama can no longer trust that his policies will be executed correctly or even paid attention to.
McChyrstal must be kept from resigning and from Afghanistan. And the only way to do it is with valued promotion.
McChrystal is not too old or too senior to be transferred to a less sensitive posting, which is what's customary under such circumstances. A desk job in Anchorage, for instance. If he's got friends in high places (which he does) maybe something better, such as a desk job in Europe.
The problem here is that he's become such a very public embarrassment, and he's insulted such very important people.
Posted by: Craig at June 22, 2010 9:13 pm
The problem here is that he's become such a very public embarrassment, and he's insulted such very important people.
Okay Leo, this one is for you....
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/22/dear-mr-president-jon-voight/
He will be debriefed, told to forget what he knows. He will loose even his limited classified briefing for retired generals thus taking away his Star worth as an expert......or so I am told by a military vet....
not sure he will go away that easily.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 22, 2010 9:15 pm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/22/dear-mr-president-jon-voight/
He will be debriefed, told to forget what he knows. He will loose even his limited classified briefing for retired generals thus taking away his Star worth as an expert......or so I am told by a military vet....
not sure he will go away that easily.
Regarding Jones "Jew" joke - it was questioned because 1) Jones is perceived as anti-Israel and despite the claims of some, Jews and Israel actually have something to do with each other; 2) he works for an administration that is ultra-PC and quick to play the race card. I think public figures should avoid ethnic jokes, they can only be misinterpreted. But this wasn't a hanging offense, more like jaywalking if that.
max - I think Craig is defending Jones as a military man because Craig is also a Marine; he's not defending Jones as a spokeman for this administration.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 22, 2010 10:05 pm
max - I think Craig is defending Jones as a military man because Craig is also a Marine; he's not defending Jones as a spokeman for this administration.
"So, renovating a part of the Western Wall plaza in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem is now an anti-peace measure that must be condemned? We're headed for trouble."
You're being disingenuous here. Everybody knows that building in East Jerusalem is not about archaelogical repairs, but expanding the Jewish presence in Arab East Jerusalem. This is a disaster for anybody who desires a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians. Abbas and the PA is such a weak force that it is easy to dismiss them and forget that the disappearance of the Palestinian peace camp and their replacement by Hamas would be an unmitigated disaster for Israel and the west. There are many in Netanyahu's right wing government who would love to see this happen, and unfortunately they control the ministries involved in these very building decisions.
My hope (and it's only a hope)is that a deal is being forged behind the scenes whereby Netanyahu will agree to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and the removal of settlements in exchange for an American/Israeli strike on Irananian nuclear facilities. This would require a reshuffling of the present Israeli coalition, as the ruling coalition today would not survive such a move.
By the way, anyone who wants a fascinating, and rather depressing read about the state of the ancient Christian communities in the middle east should read Charles Dalyrmple's "To the Holy Mountain".
Posted by: MarkC at June 22, 2010 10:20 pm
You're being disingenuous here. Everybody knows that building in East Jerusalem is not about archaelogical repairs, but expanding the Jewish presence in Arab East Jerusalem. This is a disaster for anybody who desires a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians. Abbas and the PA is such a weak force that it is easy to dismiss them and forget that the disappearance of the Palestinian peace camp and their replacement by Hamas would be an unmitigated disaster for Israel and the west. There are many in Netanyahu's right wing government who would love to see this happen, and unfortunately they control the ministries involved in these very building decisions.
My hope (and it's only a hope)is that a deal is being forged behind the scenes whereby Netanyahu will agree to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and the removal of settlements in exchange for an American/Israeli strike on Irananian nuclear facilities. This would require a reshuffling of the present Israeli coalition, as the ruling coalition today would not survive such a move.
By the way, anyone who wants a fascinating, and rather depressing read about the state of the ancient Christian communities in the middle east should read Charles Dalyrmple's "To the Holy Mountain".
"expanding the Jewish presence in Arab East Jerusalem."
There is no such place as "East Jerusalem" and never has been. Jerusalem has been a majority Jewish city since at least the 1800s. It was divided by the armistice line in 1949 after which the Jordanians barred Jews from their half of the city so they could trash Jewish holy sites. The Arabs are damned lucky that Israel is treating them so much better than they treated the Jews when Jerusalem was under Arab occupation. They can live with a few apartments.
Did I mention that Jordan didn't exactly jump out of its chair to form a Palestinian state on the West Bank? Never mind, it's all the fault of da Joooooos.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 23, 2010 12:33 am
There is no such place as "East Jerusalem" and never has been. Jerusalem has been a majority Jewish city since at least the 1800s. It was divided by the armistice line in 1949 after which the Jordanians barred Jews from their half of the city so they could trash Jewish holy sites. The Arabs are damned lucky that Israel is treating them so much better than they treated the Jews when Jerusalem was under Arab occupation. They can live with a few apartments.
Did I mention that Jordan didn't exactly jump out of its chair to form a Palestinian state on the West Bank? Never mind, it's all the fault of da Joooooos.
"The Arabs are damned lucky that Israel is treating them so much better than they treated the Jews"
Let me rephrase that. There is no luck involved. It is exactly what one would expect, knowing the parties.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 23, 2010 12:44 am
Let me rephrase that. There is no luck involved. It is exactly what one would expect, knowing the parties.
Anyone who visits this "imaginary" East Jerusalem will see the demographics very clearly. Yours is only rhetoric.
Posted by: MarkC at June 23, 2010 3:18 am
Craig -'"McChrystal is in Paris to keep the French, who have lost more than 40 soldiers in Afghanistan, from going all wobbly on him."
Isn't that about how many they lost in World War II before they decided to surrender?'
No, it was something like 100,000.
Posted by: Marge at June 23, 2010 3:56 am
Isn't that about how many they lost in World War II before they decided to surrender?'
No, it was something like 100,000.
MarkC: Anyone who visits this "imaginary" East Jerusalem will see the demographics very clearly. Yours is only rhetoric.
Wrong. Yours is the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing. They will see the remnants of Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews. Yep, when you make a city Judenrein, that's what you see - absence of Jews. Duh.
How dark of you to advocate maintaining a system of Apartheid, wherein Jews are not allowed to live in the capital city of their own nation.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 23, 2010 4:23 am
Wrong. Yours is the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing. They will see the remnants of Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews. Yep, when you make a city Judenrein, that's what you see - absence of Jews. Duh.
How dark of you to advocate maintaining a system of Apartheid, wherein Jews are not allowed to live in the capital city of their own nation.
"He will be debriefed, told to forget what he knows. He will loose even his limited classified briefing for retired generals thus taking away his Star worth as an expert......or so I am told by a military vet...."
Yes, no doubt, attempt will be made. However, there is a difference between disclosing military secrets, which I am sure McCrystal has no intention of doing in the first place and simple freedom of speech, which general still can exercise by criticizing Obama administration.
"Okay Leo, this one is for you...."
Thank you and this one is for you:
http://atlah.org/atlahworldwide/?p=8408
Posted by: leo at June 23, 2010 4:44 am
Yes, no doubt, attempt will be made. However, there is a difference between disclosing military secrets, which I am sure McCrystal has no intention of doing in the first place and simple freedom of speech, which general still can exercise by criticizing Obama administration.
"Okay Leo, this one is for you...."
Thank you and this one is for you:
http://atlah.org/atlahworldwide/?p=8408
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/06/it-is-time-to-call-in-general-mattis.html
Yes, I know Leo...
You've got to be kidding with that last link, yes?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 23, 2010 5:53 am
Yes, I know Leo...
You've got to be kidding with that last link, yes?
FREE, FREE Kurdistan. We are oppressed both by Turkey and Iran. This is the reason why Turkey has become an ally of Iran-just like the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement of 1939. We dont want to be the next Poland
Posted by: True Kurd at June 23, 2010 7:01 am
MarcC
Your comments are quite ill-informed.
Oh and by the way, history is full of demographics which change.
Posted by: jb at June 23, 2010 9:02 am
Your comments are quite ill-informed.
Oh and by the way, history is full of demographics which change.
"You've got to be kidding with that last link, yes?"
I happened to share the sentiment.
Posted by: leo at June 23, 2010 9:35 am
I happened to share the sentiment.
Let's be clear here. We're talking about Jewish building in exclusively Arab neighborhoods such as Silwan, Wadi Joz, and Sheikh Jarrah. The only Jews who seek to live there do so out of right wing ideology, and their presence can only be described as Jewish colonization. The Israelis have been busy since 1967 creating Jewish living areas in East Jerusalem (call them settlements or whatever you want), so of course the demographics have changed. The question is should Israel continue to place activist Jews in the remaining Arab neighborhoods that are needed to form the basis for a Palestinian capital of East Jerusalem, and without which no settlement is possible?
I won't say what I think of the misuse of expressions like "ethnic-cleansing" and "apartheid" in this context. L'il Mamzer, I gather you live in Israel, so let me ask you a simple question- how many Arabs live in your neighborhood, and how easy would it be for an Arab family to buy a house there (in spite of recent high court rulings?). I already know the answer, and so I think you can cool it with that apartheid BS.
Jewish Israelis are holding all the marbles in this game. We're the winners, we have most of the land. We already have a large and vibrant capital in the western part of Jerusalem. To speak of us as victims of "ethnic-cleansing" or apartheid in the present tense is the height of intellectual dishonesty. If we're not prepared to acknowledge what belong to others, how can we expect the world to acknowledge what belongs to us?
Posted by: MarkC at June 23, 2010 9:35 am
I won't say what I think of the misuse of expressions like "ethnic-cleansing" and "apartheid" in this context. L'il Mamzer, I gather you live in Israel, so let me ask you a simple question- how many Arabs live in your neighborhood, and how easy would it be for an Arab family to buy a house there (in spite of recent high court rulings?). I already know the answer, and so I think you can cool it with that apartheid BS.
Jewish Israelis are holding all the marbles in this game. We're the winners, we have most of the land. We already have a large and vibrant capital in the western part of Jerusalem. To speak of us as victims of "ethnic-cleansing" or apartheid in the present tense is the height of intellectual dishonesty. If we're not prepared to acknowledge what belong to others, how can we expect the world to acknowledge what belongs to us?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 23, 2010 5:53 am
Max, thanks for posting that link. Galrahn framed it just right in my opinion.
Posted by: Craig at June 23, 2010 10:16 am
Max, thanks for posting that link. Galrahn framed it just right in my opinion.
MarcC, you raise some legitimate points,and I agree that building or moving Jews into Arab neighborhoods is a BAD idea and should stopped.
But you're being a big disingenuous by ignoring that there are a number of very large neighborhoods in areas that are over the green line in "East" Jerusalem that never had Arabs living in them and that are completely contiguous to West Jerusalem. Everybody, including the PA, knows those neighborhoods will remain part of Jewish Jerusalem in any final status arrangement. It's for that reason that Obama's demand that building cease in those areas was an unreasonable demand for Israel. This new-found US policy was then used by the PA to walk away from the peace table, which was hardly what Obama wanted. Building had always been going on in those neighborhoods throughout the entire time Israel and the PA started Oslo. It was never a big deal until the US made it a big deal.
So, following the logic of the Obama administration's demand, any type of construction--even in the Old City of Jerusalem--was out of bounds. If you recall, shortly after the PA made a huge deal out of the re-dedication of a synagogue inside the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, no doubt emboldened by the new US policy.
Yes, dug it up: the Hurva Synagogue: http://jta.org/news/article/2010/03/15/1011107/police-secure-jerusalem-for-synagogue-rededication
Posted by: semite5000 at June 23, 2010 10:33 am
But you're being a big disingenuous by ignoring that there are a number of very large neighborhoods in areas that are over the green line in "East" Jerusalem that never had Arabs living in them and that are completely contiguous to West Jerusalem. Everybody, including the PA, knows those neighborhoods will remain part of Jewish Jerusalem in any final status arrangement. It's for that reason that Obama's demand that building cease in those areas was an unreasonable demand for Israel. This new-found US policy was then used by the PA to walk away from the peace table, which was hardly what Obama wanted. Building had always been going on in those neighborhoods throughout the entire time Israel and the PA started Oslo. It was never a big deal until the US made it a big deal.
So, following the logic of the Obama administration's demand, any type of construction--even in the Old City of Jerusalem--was out of bounds. If you recall, shortly after the PA made a huge deal out of the re-dedication of a synagogue inside the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, no doubt emboldened by the new US policy.
Yes, dug it up: the Hurva Synagogue: http://jta.org/news/article/2010/03/15/1011107/police-secure-jerusalem-for-synagogue-rededication
What's even more interesting is that a significant majority of Arabs living in eastern Jerusalem when polled about under whom they would prefer to live in a 2-state scenario, chose Israel and Israeli citizenship.
Of course the PLA was appalled, buried the poll and forbid any further such polling.
The Arabs are not blind and a great many if unencumbered from PLA threats and propaganda would likely favour an undivided Jerusalem with Israeli sovereignty.
Posted by: jb at June 23, 2010 11:07 am
Of course the PLA was appalled, buried the poll and forbid any further such polling.
The Arabs are not blind and a great many if unencumbered from PLA threats and propaganda would likely favour an undivided Jerusalem with Israeli sovereignty.
MarkC, in any future 2-state solution Jerusalem must remain undivided and the capital of only one state - Israel.
Arabs are welcome to stay, Palestina must go.
Posted by: leo at June 23, 2010 11:14 am
Arabs are welcome to stay, Palestina must go.
Do me a favor, tell me what an undivided Jerusalem even means. The Israelis themselves never defined Jerusalem's boundaries. Are Arab neighborhoods contiguous with Jewish Jerusalem also also Jerusalem? Shuafat, Bet Hannina, Sheikh Jarrah - why are these necessarily part of Jerusalem? They're not even in the bible! Why not just go all the way to Ramallah?
Semite, the Israelis brought this blanket prohibition on themselves by building in Arab neighborhoods. Previous prime ministers avoided this, so you can thank Bibi. After the stunt the Israelis pulled in Ramat Shlomo when Biden was on a state visit, the Americans didn't want any more shenanigans that were going to embarass them and sabotage their efforts to bring the sides together. I agree that Pisgat Zeev and Gilo and Ma'aleh Adumim are large, relatively well-integrated Jewish areas that probably will remain Israeli as part of any final settlement.
Posted by: MarkC at June 23, 2010 11:31 am
Semite, the Israelis brought this blanket prohibition on themselves by building in Arab neighborhoods. Previous prime ministers avoided this, so you can thank Bibi. After the stunt the Israelis pulled in Ramat Shlomo when Biden was on a state visit, the Americans didn't want any more shenanigans that were going to embarass them and sabotage their efforts to bring the sides together. I agree that Pisgat Zeev and Gilo and Ma'aleh Adumim are large, relatively well-integrated Jewish areas that probably will remain Israeli as part of any final settlement.
Let's be clear here. We're talking about Jewish building in exclusively WASP neighborhoods such as Greenwich, Grosse Point, and Beachwood. The only Jews who seek to live there do so out of right wing ideology, and their presence can only be described as Jewish colonization.. Im sure that MarkC will write a book about the Jewish colonization of Greenwich, Conn, Grosse Point, Mich, and Beachwood, Ohio. MarkC would state that Jews need to know their place
Posted by: Herbert Kaine at June 23, 2010 11:40 am
By the way, I was in the Old City recently for the light festival they had there, and saw the new Hurva Synagogue. It is gorgeous.
Posted by: MarkC at June 23, 2010 11:41 am
MarkC,
I already stated that agree with you that Arab neighborhoods in E. J Ierusalem should remain as such. The city is already de-facto divided, at least inasmuch as most neighborhoods are are either Arab and Jewish, and that in general most of those neighborhoods are contiguous; point being that it is possible to gerrymander a Jewish J'salem and Arab J'salem. But when radical Jews attempt to move into places like Sheikh Jarrah, I agree, it upsets the balance and makes a division of the city more difficult. You are also correct that boundaries of what constitutes Jerusalem are simply what the Israelis say they are and are hardly sacrosanct or even rooted in the Bible, etc.
Historically and religiously only the Old City of Jerusalem with its famous four quarters and holy sites is the 'real' Jerusalem. The rest were neighborhoods or nearby villages that got looped into what became modern Jerusalem.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 23, 2010 11:43 am
I already stated that agree with you that Arab neighborhoods in E. J Ierusalem should remain as such. The city is already de-facto divided, at least inasmuch as most neighborhoods are are either Arab and Jewish, and that in general most of those neighborhoods are contiguous; point being that it is possible to gerrymander a Jewish J'salem and Arab J'salem. But when radical Jews attempt to move into places like Sheikh Jarrah, I agree, it upsets the balance and makes a division of the city more difficult. You are also correct that boundaries of what constitutes Jerusalem are simply what the Israelis say they are and are hardly sacrosanct or even rooted in the Bible, etc.
Historically and religiously only the Old City of Jerusalem with its famous four quarters and holy sites is the 'real' Jerusalem. The rest were neighborhoods or nearby villages that got looped into what became modern Jerusalem.
"Do me a favor, tell me what an undivided Jerusalem even means."
As Israelis see it.
Posted by: leo at June 23, 2010 11:44 am
As Israelis see it.
MarkC
Do you live in Jerusalem? I'm moving back to Israel in late July. I'll be staying at first in Mevesseret and no doubt I'll have to go to J'salem to deal with some bureaucratic b.s. (it's Israel, what can you do?). We should meet up for coffee or something.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 23, 2010 1:24 pm
Do you live in Jerusalem? I'm moving back to Israel in late July. I'll be staying at first in Mevesseret and no doubt I'll have to go to J'salem to deal with some bureaucratic b.s. (it's Israel, what can you do?). We should meet up for coffee or something.
Okay all you Israelis, so when I come you'll lend me your floor?
Craig, no problem, I understand what Galrhan is saying. I guess Yon was right that McChrystal was losing it. Shame, he killed more AQ than anybody.
WE didn't think of Petreaus because that is a demotion. I can't get it out of my mind that Obama didn't attack MoveOn when they called him Betrayedus. That was when I started getting pissed.
Then he avoided the Kyle anti-Quds Bill claiming he didn't know when the vote was, but claimed he would have voted against it. He went totally Left around Hillary.
Now Pakistan refuses to back down from their gas project with Iran. The Taliban are laughing. Turkish and Iranian troops are on the border of Iraq. Israel faces another flotilla......
This something like I imagined might happen and why I refused to vote for Obama.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 23, 2010 2:12 pm
Craig, no problem, I understand what Galrhan is saying. I guess Yon was right that McChrystal was losing it. Shame, he killed more AQ than anybody.
WE didn't think of Petreaus because that is a demotion. I can't get it out of my mind that Obama didn't attack MoveOn when they called him Betrayedus. That was when I started getting pissed.
Then he avoided the Kyle anti-Quds Bill claiming he didn't know when the vote was, but claimed he would have voted against it. He went totally Left around Hillary.
Now Pakistan refuses to back down from their gas project with Iran. The Taliban are laughing. Turkish and Iranian troops are on the border of Iraq. Israel faces another flotilla......
This something like I imagined might happen and why I refused to vote for Obama.
MarkC, you're right but Obama called for a halt to ALL settlements and made no distinction. I advocated returning to the Clinton map. Not doing this was a mistake. He allowed this confusion to complicate an already complicated mess. By refusing to pick up where Clinton left off, he gave the wrong signals.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 23, 2010 2:22 pm
Very interesting analysis, and largely true, up til he looses it in the last halfpage that is. "...the suicidal obscurantism of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas"? To call Hezb suicidaly obscure is quite interesting. But its a good thing that Turkey takes responsibility and kicks Iran outta Gaza.
Btw, on Gaza: I think a lot of military folks think that a international coalition effort providing neutral justice, with the US manning the checkpoints/perimeter and the UN/Euros/Turks providing internal security for Gaza and those parts of the west bank that wishes to get rid of the IDF.
Posted by: Fnord at June 23, 2010 2:26 pm
Btw, on Gaza: I think a lot of military folks think that a international coalition effort providing neutral justice, with the US manning the checkpoints/perimeter and the UN/Euros/Turks providing internal security for Gaza and those parts of the west bank that wishes to get rid of the IDF.
P.S. MarkC: Respect. Good to hear sane voices. What is your opinion on the settlements, if I may ask?
Posted by: Fnord at June 23, 2010 2:27 pm
Very interesting analysis, and largely true, up til he looses it in the last halfpage that is. "...the suicidal obscurantism of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas"? To call Hezb suicidaly obscure is quite interesting.
Not as interesting as the fact that you don't realize "obscurantism" isn't just a variation of the word "obscure" :)
You have an aversion to dictionaries or something, Fnord? I understand you aren't a native English speaker but you should have been able to tell from the context that the word didn't mean what you thought it meant.
Posted by: Craig at June 23, 2010 2:43 pm
Not as interesting as the fact that you don't realize "obscurantism" isn't just a variation of the word "obscure" :)
You have an aversion to dictionaries or something, Fnord? I understand you aren't a native English speaker but you should have been able to tell from the context that the word didn't mean what you thought it meant.
Btw, on Gaza: I think a lot of military folks think that a international coalition effort providing neutral justice, with the US manning the checkpoints/perimeter and the UN/Euros/Turks providing internal security for Gaza and those parts of the west bank that wishes to get rid of the IDF.
You have got to be kidding me. I don't know any genuine, verified US "military folks" who think that would be a good idea. In fact, most of the people on the planet, US military folks, farmers, housewives, etc. know that this would be a terrible idea.
Posted by: Mary Madigan at June 23, 2010 3:52 pm
You have got to be kidding me. I don't know any genuine, verified US "military folks" who think that would be a good idea. In fact, most of the people on the planet, US military folks, farmers, housewives, etc. know that this would be a terrible idea.
MarkC: I won't say what I think of the misuse of expressions like "ethnic-cleansing" and "apartheid" in this context. L'il Mamzer, I gather you live in Israel, so let me ask you a simple question- how many Arabs live in your neighborhood, and how easy would it be for an Arab family to buy a house there (in spite of recent high court rulings?). I already know the answer, and so I think you can cool it with that apartheid BS.
You've already said enough on the issue to make it clear you have blinders on. Jews were ethnically cleansed from Jerusalem. You're OK with that, apparently. Jewish holy places were trashed by thePalestinian Jordanian Arabs after 1948, and every day now we hear "moderates" like Abbas and Fayyad bitch and moan about the Israelis' "Judaization" of Jerusalem. That's like complaining about the "Judaization" of Israel. The vast majority of Israelis oppose dividing Jerusalem again, and for good reason. Now you say Jews shouldn't be able to live in any residential neighborhood because they are Jews. That's not apartheid? Give me a fucking break. You put words in my mouth and that's a mistake. I never said I agree with any form of unfair discrimination against Arabs in Israel. That's how you construct an argument?
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 23, 2010 4:36 pm
You've already said enough on the issue to make it clear you have blinders on. Jews were ethnically cleansed from Jerusalem. You're OK with that, apparently. Jewish holy places were trashed by the
MarkC: Let's be clear here. We're talking about Jewish building in exclusively Arab neighborhoods such as Silwan, Wadi Joz, and Sheikh Jarrah. The only Jews who seek to live there do so out of right wing ideology, and their presence can only be described as Jewish colonization.
"Jewish colonization" - ding ding ding ding
Why must these neighborhoods remain exclusively Arab? You going to put up a sign with a silhouette of a Jew in a circle with a diagonal red line through it? "No Jews Allowed"? How very progressive of you.
And if a Jew whose politics are left of center and who understands that Jerusalem is the capital city of his country chooses to live in a neighborhood that you believe should remain Jew-free, what then? Tough shit for that Jew?
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 23, 2010 4:48 pm
"Jewish colonization" - ding ding ding ding
Why must these neighborhoods remain exclusively Arab? You going to put up a sign with a silhouette of a Jew in a circle with a diagonal red line through it? "No Jews Allowed"? How very progressive of you.
And if a Jew whose politics are left of center and who understands that Jerusalem is the capital city of his country chooses to live in a neighborhood that you believe should remain Jew-free, what then? Tough shit for that Jew?
You have got to be kidding me. I don't know any genuine, verified US "military folks" who think that would be a good idea.
I think Fnord was making that stuff up about US military people wanting to replace the IDF in the West Bank and Gaza. It's either a fantasy scenario fnord likes to run in his own head because he thinks that would really piss off those pesky Jews, or he doesn't actually know anyone in the US military with an IQ over 80 or a billet > rifleman. Most likely it's both :)
Posted by: Craig at June 23, 2010 4:50 pm
I think Fnord was making that stuff up about US military people wanting to replace the IDF in the West Bank and Gaza. It's either a fantasy scenario fnord likes to run in his own head because he thinks that would really piss off those pesky Jews, or he doesn't actually know anyone in the US military with an IQ over 80 or a billet > rifleman. Most likely it's both :)
Mamzer,
In many ways Jerusalem is already divided; it's a defacto division.
Now, in terms of a final status agreement, any Jerusalem deal will show that compared to J'salem in 1948, the realities on the ground today show that Israel 'won.' Israel got back the Old City and the Kotel; it created an arch of neighborhoods that connect W. J'salem to the Hebrew University on Mt. Scopus, east of the Old City. Israel built neighborhoods beyond the '67 boundaries on vacant hills both north and south of the Arab neighborhoods.
Who cares if the Palestinians control the Arab Quarter of the Old City and the Arab neighborhoods to the immediate east of it, as well as some other Arab villages/neighborhoods around Abu Dis? No Jews live there anyway, and the vast majority of Jews don't want to live there.
I think Israelis need to be flexible on J'salem if there is any hope for a final status deal. But that's just my fairly secular'ish Zionist view.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 23, 2010 5:32 pm
In many ways Jerusalem is already divided; it's a defacto division.
Now, in terms of a final status agreement, any Jerusalem deal will show that compared to J'salem in 1948, the realities on the ground today show that Israel 'won.' Israel got back the Old City and the Kotel; it created an arch of neighborhoods that connect W. J'salem to the Hebrew University on Mt. Scopus, east of the Old City. Israel built neighborhoods beyond the '67 boundaries on vacant hills both north and south of the Arab neighborhoods.
Who cares if the Palestinians control the Arab Quarter of the Old City and the Arab neighborhoods to the immediate east of it, as well as some other Arab villages/neighborhoods around Abu Dis? No Jews live there anyway, and the vast majority of Jews don't want to live there.
I think Israelis need to be flexible on J'salem if there is any hope for a final status deal. But that's just my fairly secular'ish Zionist view.
US forces have done a good job of keeping the peace in Sinai, but that's an entirely different cup of tea compared to Gaza.
US troops in Gaza will be attacked by Palestinians--there is no doubt about that. Why should US soldiers does protecting Israel when Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself?
UN troops: It would be great if it could work, but the track record of UN peacekeeping missions, particularly with regards to Israel, are less than encouraging.
That leaves the EU. Do they even have the balls? You know, one of their boys could get hurt.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 23, 2010 5:35 pm
US troops in Gaza will be attacked by Palestinians--there is no doubt about that. Why should US soldiers does protecting Israel when Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself?
UN troops: It would be great if it could work, but the track record of UN peacekeeping missions, particularly with regards to Israel, are less than encouraging.
That leaves the EU. Do they even have the balls? You know, one of their boys could get hurt.
Why should US soldiers does protecting Israel when Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself?
I mean "die"
Posted by: semite5000 at June 23, 2010 5:36 pm
I mean "die"
Like the US, Russia, Britain and China, Israel is one of the few countries in the world that is capable of independently defending its own borders.
I think that's one of the major reasons why the 'international community' has such contempt for Israel, and it's why they keep making suggestions like this..
Posted by: Mary Madigan at June 24, 2010 3:01 am
I think that's one of the major reasons why the 'international community' has such contempt for Israel, and it's why they keep making suggestions like this..
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