June 4, 2010
The Man Who Pulled the Trigger
The Jerusalem Post interviews an Israeli commando who killed six people on the Mavi Marmara earlier this week. He explains what happened and why he did what he did.
Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded--one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.
As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge.
He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades.
The attackers had already seized two pistols from the commandos, and fired repeatedly at them. Facing more than a dozen of the mercenaries, and convinced their lives were in danger, he and his colleagues opened fire, he said. S. singlehandedly killed six men. His colleagues killed another three.
On Thursday, S. sat down with The Jerusalem Post at the Shayetet’s base in northern Israel for an exclusive interview, during which he described the dramatic events aboard the Mavi Marmara on Monday; he is being considered for a medal of valor.
“When I hit the deck, I was immediately attacked by people with bats, metal pipes and axes,” S. told the Post. “These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us.”
[…]
The IDF’s understanding is that the mercenaries mainly chose dual-purpose items of this sort rather than guns, since opening fire would have made it blatantly clear that they were terrorists and not so-called peace activists.
Nevertheless, the IDF suspects that the group did have some guns of its own. Israeli forensic experts who examined the ship found casings belonging to a weapon that was not used by the commandos, and the Turkish captain of the ship later told the IDF that the “mercenaries” threw their weapons overboard after the commandos took control of the vessel.
Another boat is on its way to Gaza right now and apparently intends to run the blockade instead of docking at Ashdod.
Will everyone be cool this time, please? For your own sakes first and foremost, but for everyone else's, as well. Another international incident of this sort would be dangerous now.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 4, 2010 2:46 AM
Comments
Sorry, I vote for just sinking the boat.
One warning, one missile, boat sinks.
Anyone have a link so that I can provide $$$$ to support Israel?
Posted by: Ron Snyder at June 4, 2010 4:24 am
One warning, one missile, boat sinks.
Anyone have a link so that I can provide $$$$ to support Israel?
Ron, they plan to put a lot of celbs on the boat. This morning they accused Israel of sabotaging the communication systems. Maybe Israel is learning.
A stronger US President would put an end to this and send some large Navy ships. Blackfive suggests Nato boarding to inspect but the Nato charter covers only America and Europe. Still, a confrontation between Turkey and Israel would likely involve Europe. Maybe Egypt with Israeli observers?
This might be a first step to Nato forces in Gaza too.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 5:13 am
A stronger US President would put an end to this and send some large Navy ships. Blackfive suggests Nato boarding to inspect but the Nato charter covers only America and Europe. Still, a confrontation between Turkey and Israel would likely involve Europe. Maybe Egypt with Israeli observers?
This might be a first step to Nato forces in Gaza too.
Turkey wants a war.
They might get one.
Posted by: Barry Meislin at June 4, 2010 5:47 am
They might get one.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-03/israel-may-join-gas-exporting-nations-with-leviathan-discovery.html
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 5:47 am
If the Israelis let this one through without inspecting it, then the next one will be carrying serious weaponry.
Posted by: Toady at June 4, 2010 5:53 am
Incredible story Michael. One tough commando who has to read the BS coming those who think they are now celebs.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE65213520100604
Turks and Iranians can visit Syria without visas and enjoy the many sites....
There is so much to see. And not to see.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 6:00 am
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE65213520100604
Turks and Iranians can visit Syria without visas and enjoy the many sites....
There is so much to see. And not to see.
I was just finna post this article.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 4, 2010 6:03 am
The wonderful thing about a vacation in Syria is that you get your own personal minder tour guide!
Posted by: semite5000 at June 4, 2010 6:12 am
Turkey wants a patina of anti-Israeli action to cover their weapons deals with Israel. I'm certain that there are Turks who sincerely want to destroy Israel, restore the Caliphate, and resume operations as the Ottoman empire. Regrettably, those folks are far too intolerant to organize anything large, so they will probably make a giant mess instead.
The critical problem with dreams of fascist empire is that fascism precludes imperial scope because it cannot adapt to local conditions. Purity is its own worst enemy. The Ottomans were deeply corrupt, but they adapted to local conditions and allowed local talent to contribute. Kemalism burned itself out trying to pretend that Kurds were "Mountain Turks" based on their need for everything under their command to be same not other.
Pity so many people have to die making control fantasies fail.
Posted by: Patrick S Lasswell at June 4, 2010 8:05 am
The critical problem with dreams of fascist empire is that fascism precludes imperial scope because it cannot adapt to local conditions. Purity is its own worst enemy. The Ottomans were deeply corrupt, but they adapted to local conditions and allowed local talent to contribute. Kemalism burned itself out trying to pretend that Kurds were "Mountain Turks" based on their need for everything under their command to be same not other.
Pity so many people have to die making control fantasies fail.
Will everyone be cool this time, please? For your own sakes first and foremost, but for everyone else's, as well.
And yet, this sanest of pleas is most certainly not in the interest of all those who bitterly oppose the existence of Israel.
They must strike while the iron is hot. And the iron is certainly hot. And it can much, much hotter, still.
One shudders to think what will happen; and yet one must be resolute. There are enough missiles pointed in Israel's direction (though, for some, not nearly enough from Gaza).
One hopes the terror enablers haven't booby-trapped the vessel or rigged it to explode.
Posted by: Barry Meislin at June 4, 2010 8:18 am
And yet, this sanest of pleas is most certainly not in the interest of all those who bitterly oppose the existence of Israel.
They must strike while the iron is hot. And the iron is certainly hot. And it can much, much hotter, still.
One shudders to think what will happen; and yet one must be resolute. There are enough missiles pointed in Israel's direction (though, for some, not nearly enough from Gaza).
One hopes the terror enablers haven't booby-trapped the vessel or rigged it to explode.
I second sinking the boat. Not without warning of course, but board the ship, evacuate the passengers, and sink the boat. Then do it with the next one. Then stop, because the third boat will probably be booby trapped.
Posted by: Chad at June 4, 2010 8:53 am
Patrick, it seems Ayers admitted this when he tried to explain to activists, small gains are better than no gains. The activists from Turkey disagreed. His wife was reportedly concerned about the "absolutist thinking" of their partners in crime.
On the flip side, one wonders how this Left/Fundie partnership has gotten so far in the first place. Iran it seems is willing to make alliances with their enemies if it serves their purpose. Assad can do this too. Is the "dream" enough to bury the discord?
I hope you're right.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 9:09 am
On the flip side, one wonders how this Left/Fundie partnership has gotten so far in the first place. Iran it seems is willing to make alliances with their enemies if it serves their purpose. Assad can do this too. Is the "dream" enough to bury the discord?
I hope you're right.
Patrick, it seems Ayers admitted this when he tried to explain to activists, small gains are better than no gains. The activists from Turkey disagreed. His wife was reportedly concerned about the "absolutist thinking" of their partners in crime.
Maxture,
do you have a link on that?
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 9:12 am
Maxture,
do you have a link on that?
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/06/hezbollah-threatens-unrestricted-naval.html
Carlos,
"As for the Egyptian statement that only hooligans were staying behind in Cairo, she said it was a lie, she would say so on her blog, and the people who were against anyone going on that basis were giving the Egyptian security state power. Dohrn said that the principle of “All or none” was a miserable one for activist politics. You always took what you could get and kept fighting for more. A European man in a red keffiyeh screamed at her that she was serving the fascisti. Her partner Bill Ayers gently confronted him and asked him why he was so out of control. Between getting on and off the bus, Dohrn, who wore a flower in her hair, said that she didn’t like the absolutist certainty of the people on the other side of the police barricades, and having been in the Weather Underground, she knew something about absolutist feeling.
In the end Dohrn and Abunimah got off the bus. Mulhearn stayed on, I heard. A big reason for them was a call that Abunimah had with leaders of civil society in Gaza, who said, if this is going to hurt the movement, don’t come. We will march without you. (The message, from Haidar Eid and Omar Barghouti, says, “After a lot of hesitation and deliberation, we are writing to call on you to reject the ‘deal’ reached with the Egyptian authorities. This deal is bad for us and, we deeply feel, terrible for the solidarity movement.”) http://biggovernment.com/taylorking/2009/12/31/obama-funder-jodie-evans-provokes-crisis-in-egypt-over-hamas-aid-event-obama-pals-ayers-and-dohrn-in-cairo-with-code-pink/
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 10:10 am
Carlos,
"As for the Egyptian statement that only hooligans were staying behind in Cairo, she said it was a lie, she would say so on her blog, and the people who were against anyone going on that basis were giving the Egyptian security state power. Dohrn said that the principle of “All or none” was a miserable one for activist politics. You always took what you could get and kept fighting for more. A European man in a red keffiyeh screamed at her that she was serving the fascisti. Her partner Bill Ayers gently confronted him and asked him why he was so out of control. Between getting on and off the bus, Dohrn, who wore a flower in her hair, said that she didn’t like the absolutist certainty of the people on the other side of the police barricades, and having been in the Weather Underground, she knew something about absolutist feeling.
In the end Dohrn and Abunimah got off the bus. Mulhearn stayed on, I heard. A big reason for them was a call that Abunimah had with leaders of civil society in Gaza, who said, if this is going to hurt the movement, don’t come. We will march without you. (The message, from Haidar Eid and Omar Barghouti, says, “After a lot of hesitation and deliberation, we are writing to call on you to reject the ‘deal’ reached with the Egyptian authorities. This deal is bad for us and, we deeply feel, terrible for the solidarity movement.”) http://biggovernment.com/taylorking/2009/12/31/obama-funder-jodie-evans-provokes-crisis-in-egypt-over-hamas-aid-event-obama-pals-ayers-and-dohrn-in-cairo-with-code-pink/
"I'm certain that there are Turks who sincerely want to destroy Israel, restore the Caliphate, and resume operations as the Ottoman empire. "
The funny thing is that in a real sense it was the Ottoman Caliphs who deeded Palestine to the Jews. First, when modern Zionism's founder, Theodore Herzl, met with Abdülhamid II stated that as long as the Arabs fought to keep the empire together, he couldn't agree to Jews re-settling Palestine, but -
"- once the Khilafah is torn apart one day, then they can take Palestine without a price."
Herzl thought it was a refusal, but he was wrong. For when the Arabs sided with the Brits and the Ottoman Empire was torn apart, the last Caliph but one stated in the 1920 Treaty of Sevrès that Palestine should be set aside as a Jewish homeland:
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
Although this treaty was rejected by the new revolutionary secular government of Turkey, its Palestine provisions were not, and were later incorporated into the British Mandate of Palestine.
Posted by: Solomon2 at June 4, 2010 10:22 am
The funny thing is that in a real sense it was the Ottoman Caliphs who deeded Palestine to the Jews. First, when modern Zionism's founder, Theodore Herzl, met with Abdülhamid II stated that as long as the Arabs fought to keep the empire together, he couldn't agree to Jews re-settling Palestine, but -
"- once the Khilafah is torn apart one day, then they can take Palestine without a price."
Herzl thought it was a refusal, but he was wrong. For when the Arabs sided with the Brits and the Ottoman Empire was torn apart, the last Caliph but one stated in the 1920 Treaty of Sevrès that Palestine should be set aside as a Jewish homeland:
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
Although this treaty was rejected by the new revolutionary secular government of Turkey, its Palestine provisions were not, and were later incorporated into the British Mandate of Palestine.
Excuse me, I have no way of knowing if these were "activists from Turkey". It is hard to tell from the article Carlos. Seems more were from Hamas....
This event was back in 09...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 10:29 am
This event was back in 09...
We had no choice
A timeless excuse for questionable actions.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 10:45 am
A timeless excuse for questionable actions.
Perto (Do you know that means "lost"?
Of all the cheap, stupid, malevolent, snide, ignorant comments, that's the worst!
Even Anand has more brains than you.
Compared to you, Anand is a Rhodes scholar.
Do you feel better now, you little twit? Does that make you feel all warm inside? Does it make you feel all clever and superior?
"Nyuk yuk, I sure showed them Jews and their dogs"
Yes, you most certainly did!
Posted by: jb at June 4, 2010 11:10 am
Of all the cheap, stupid, malevolent, snide, ignorant comments, that's the worst!
Even Anand has more brains than you.
Compared to you, Anand is a Rhodes scholar.
Do you feel better now, you little twit? Does that make you feel all warm inside? Does it make you feel all clever and superior?
"Nyuk yuk, I sure showed them Jews and their dogs"
Yes, you most certainly did!
Thanks Max. I am looking for any connection between the Flotilla and Western Leftists, especially Bill Ayers.
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 11:17 am
jb,
Not pulling the trigger is always an option.
No wonder this guy didn't use his real name.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 11:23 am
Not pulling the trigger is always an option.
No wonder this guy didn't use his real name.
Next time someone is holding a gun to your head, try saying that, you dolt!
"No wonder this guy didn't use his real name. "
How ignorant!
They don't use their names for security reasons.
Remember that??
That's what your country should be enforcing so that you can freely spout all your BS without fear of being killed or tortured.
Try visiting Gaza and see how well you do.
Posted by: jb at June 4, 2010 11:27 am
"No wonder this guy didn't use his real name. "
How ignorant!
They don't use their names for security reasons.
Remember that??
That's what your country should be enforcing so that you can freely spout all your BS without fear of being killed or tortured.
Try visiting Gaza and see how well you do.
jb,
The Israelis should release their video of this hero gunning down six civilians.
Then we can decide whether his actions were appropriate or not.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 11:33 am
The Israelis should release their video of this hero gunning down six civilians.
Then we can decide whether his actions were appropriate or not.
They were as much "civilians" as a suicide bomber is a "civilian."
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 11:41 am
Here's a video for you...of your humanitarian cargo!
If this is for real it is pretty damning.
"The Israelis should release their video of this hero gunning down six civilians. "
Yeah right...civilians.
Posted by: jb at June 4, 2010 11:44 am
If this is for real it is pretty damning.
"The Israelis should release their video of this hero gunning down six civilians. "
Yeah right...civilians.
Oops, forgot the link...
http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928
Posted by: jb at June 4, 2010 11:45 am
http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928
Haha, jb
Fair and balanced, right?
Again, let's wait until the Israelis release the video of their soldiers shooting the civilians before we decide.
I'm sure those tapes will be coming out any day now...it the name of honesty and openness.
/eyeroll
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 11:53 am
Fair and balanced, right?
Again, let's wait until the Israelis release the video of their soldiers shooting the civilians before we decide.
I'm sure those tapes will be coming out any day now...it the name of honesty and openness.
/eyeroll
[...] Confederate Yankee, Yourish.com, RubinReports, CAMERA Snapshots, Israel Matzav, NewsReal Blog, Michael J. Totten and The [...]
Posted by: What are the blogs saying? | Flotilla Facts at June 4, 2010 11:55 am
I'd be curious to see how they react to the Rachel Corrie ship that is getting closer...Netanyahu seems bent to not letting it get through, and hopefully he'll use better methods this time!
Posted by: Mason at June 4, 2010 11:56 am
jb,
i don't read Hebrew. What exactly is going on in that video? Is that cargo from the Marmara?
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 12:02 pm
i don't read Hebrew. What exactly is going on in that video? Is that cargo from the Marmara?
Carlos,
Apparently yes it was.
During offloading one of the containers they found stacked behind sacs of flour, mortars, bazookas, shells and a safe-box with about a million euros destined for Hamas.
I would prefer confirmatory evidence on this since it is only from one source.
But if true, its very damning for the "aid-flotilla" and its organizers.
But more importantly, the markings indicate probably that they are US manufactured. Could they be from Turkish inventory?
The video certainly needs to be confirmed because of the serious implications.
Posted by: jb at June 4, 2010 12:13 pm
Apparently yes it was.
During offloading one of the containers they found stacked behind sacs of flour, mortars, bazookas, shells and a safe-box with about a million euros destined for Hamas.
I would prefer confirmatory evidence on this since it is only from one source.
But if true, its very damning for the "aid-flotilla" and its organizers.
But more importantly, the markings indicate probably that they are US manufactured. Could they be from Turkish inventory?
The video certainly needs to be confirmed because of the serious implications.
jb,
thanks. I too want iron-clad proof this is from the Marmara first. I don't want to go off half cocked. Anybody read Hebrew?
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 12:21 pm
thanks. I too want iron-clad proof this is from the Marmara first. I don't want to go off half cocked. Anybody read Hebrew?
Perta,
Just curious, but are you as suspicious of the flotilla peoples' description of events as you of Israel's? If not, why?
Posted by: semite5000 at June 4, 2010 12:38 pm
Just curious, but are you as suspicious of the flotilla peoples' description of events as you of Israel's? If not, why?
Not pulling the trigger is always an option.
Yeah, right. Tell you what... why don't you and a bunch of your friends go down to the local police station wherever you live and start beating the cop at the front desk with baseball bats, and see what happens. Be sure to yell out "Not pulling the trigger is always an option" during your assault.
The Israelis should release their video of this hero gunning down six civilians.
Yes, you do strike me as the type who'd be into war-porn. Everyone has seen what came before - the brutal assaults on that very soldier and his team as they first boarded the vessel. There's no need to show the video of what came after. Unless you are going to make some bizarre claim that instead of shooting the people that were trying to kill them, they deliberately sought out the innocent who were hiding below decks and murdered them in cold blood?
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 12:44 pm
Yeah, right. Tell you what... why don't you and a bunch of your friends go down to the local police station wherever you live and start beating the cop at the front desk with baseball bats, and see what happens. Be sure to yell out "Not pulling the trigger is always an option" during your assault.
The Israelis should release their video of this hero gunning down six civilians.
Yes, you do strike me as the type who'd be into war-porn. Everyone has seen what came before - the brutal assaults on that very soldier and his team as they first boarded the vessel. There's no need to show the video of what came after. Unless you are going to make some bizarre claim that instead of shooting the people that were trying to kill them, they deliberately sought out the innocent who were hiding below decks and murdered them in cold blood?
I'm sure those tapes will be coming out any day now...it the name of honesty and openness.
/eyeroll
You accuse the Israelis of dishonesty, even though every claim they have made they have substantiated? And you believe the "activists" have integrity, even though every claim they have made has been proven to be a lie?
That's a fucked up world you live in. I suggest you change sides, while you still can.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 12:48 pm
/eyeroll
You accuse the Israelis of dishonesty, even though every claim they have made they have substantiated? And you believe the "activists" have integrity, even though every claim they have made has been proven to be a lie?
That's a fucked up world you live in. I suggest you change sides, while you still can.
"Rachel Corrie ship won't divert course"
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177499
Does anyone seriously think these people (the "peace activists") are trying to avoid a confrontation?
Posted by: C.H. at June 4, 2010 12:58 pm
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177499
Does anyone seriously think these people (the "peace activists") are trying to avoid a confrontation?
The big question from any tax paying American is what did the USA know and do about it. The USA is spending hundres of millon dollars a week to find about the movements of suspected terrorists. Here we have a ship taking at least 100 fanatical Muslims some of them known terrorists. At least two made Shaid movies befor sailing. A ship like that can go anywhere. Clearly the Tuekish secret service knew about it. Turkey is a member of NATO, the USA has A bombs in Turkey some of them "belong" to Turkey. There are on going relations in Afganistan between the secret organizations of the USA and Turkey. Also in Iraq both are interacting. If the USA did not know about the people on the ship it is bad. If they knew but did nothing it is worse.
Posted by: Rani at June 4, 2010 1:30 pm
Rani, here's more about how Turkey's actions are impacting US FP in a bad way: http://article.nationalreview.com/435436/a-fine-recipe-for-war/mario-loyola?page=1
Posted by: semite5000 at June 4, 2010 1:44 pm
They really are peace activists this time, CH. Nonetheless, I think they should be prosecuted for smuggling and whatever can be charged for attempting to run a military blockade. Real activists are always willing to go to prison for their beliefs, so they should be permitted to do so.
Anyone know why Bill Ayers isn't in prison, by the way? Even if he's un-prosecutable for terrorist acts committed in the past, it seems like with his history and his current involvement with jihadi terror groups should be enough to get a conviction? It seems absurd that a former leader of an American terrorist network could plausibly claim he didn't know about the terror links of groups he's affiliated with today.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 1:48 pm
Anyone know why Bill Ayers isn't in prison, by the way? Even if he's un-prosecutable for terrorist acts committed in the past, it seems like with his history and his current involvement with jihadi terror groups should be enough to get a conviction? It seems absurd that a former leader of an American terrorist network could plausibly claim he didn't know about the terror links of groups he's affiliated with today.
If the USA did not know about the people on the ship it is bad. If they knew but did nothing it is worse.
It's that one, Rani. That's why I asked about Bill Ayers, just now. Bill Ayers is an American terrorist and is also a friend of President Obama.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 1:50 pm
It's that one, Rani. That's why I asked about Bill Ayers, just now. Bill Ayers is an American terrorist and is also a friend of President Obama.
"You accuse the Israelis of dishonesty, even though every claim they have made they have substantiated? "
Um, the IDF apologized just yesterday for wrongly accusing the flotilla organizers of having ties to al Qaeda.
I believe releasing carefully edited video portions of this incident is fundamentally dishonest, yes.
Releasing all the tapes, unedited would be the honest thing to do.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 2:10 pm
Um, the IDF apologized just yesterday for wrongly accusing the flotilla organizers of having ties to al Qaeda.
I believe releasing carefully edited video portions of this incident is fundamentally dishonest, yes.
Releasing all the tapes, unedited would be the honest thing to do.
Um, the IDF apologized just yesterday for wrongly accusing the flotilla organizers of having ties to al Qaeda.
I don't believe that to be true - can you document that? But even if it is true, it is totally irrelevant when it comes to the circumstances of the violent confrontation on that ship.
You're attempting to engage in a distraction now, by throwing unrelated mud at the Israelis. Where have we seen this type of argumentation before? :)
I believe releasing carefully edited video portions of this incident is fundamentally dishonest, yes.
You use pejoratives in there, like "carefully edited" and "dishonest". Why? The Israelis released enough video to substantiate their version of events, and to prove the version of events told by the passengers on the ship was a bold-faced lie.
And yet you accuse the Israelis of being deceptive, and say nothing about the continuous string of obvious falsehoods being told by both the organizers of the convoy and the passengers/criminals on the convoy. Why?
I asked you yesterday what you thought the 600 jihadis that Turkey put aboard this convoy intended to do in Gaza once they arrived. You didn't reply. Why?
Releasing all the tapes, unedited would be the honest thing to do.
The Israelis have already proven their case. They have no responsibility to comply with your demands, just because you want to see if there's anything outrageous in there that you can use for propaganda purposes to further inflame Muslims.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 2:25 pm
I don't believe that to be true - can you document that? But even if it is true, it is totally irrelevant when it comes to the circumstances of the violent confrontation on that ship.
You're attempting to engage in a distraction now, by throwing unrelated mud at the Israelis. Where have we seen this type of argumentation before? :)
I believe releasing carefully edited video portions of this incident is fundamentally dishonest, yes.
You use pejoratives in there, like "carefully edited" and "dishonest". Why? The Israelis released enough video to substantiate their version of events, and to prove the version of events told by the passengers on the ship was a bold-faced lie.
And yet you accuse the Israelis of being deceptive, and say nothing about the continuous string of obvious falsehoods being told by both the organizers of the convoy and the passengers/criminals on the convoy. Why?
I asked you yesterday what you thought the 600 jihadis that Turkey put aboard this convoy intended to do in Gaza once they arrived. You didn't reply. Why?
Releasing all the tapes, unedited would be the honest thing to do.
The Israelis have already proven their case. They have no responsibility to comply with your demands, just because you want to see if there's anything outrageous in there that you can use for propaganda purposes to further inflame Muslims.
"Rachel Corrie ship won't divert course"
Sink her.
I'm getting tired of this bullshit.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 2:28 pm
Sink her.
I'm getting tired of this bullshit.
"They really are peace activists this time"
Are you sure about that? Because I'm not...
Posted by: C.H. at June 4, 2010 2:30 pm
Are you sure about that? Because I'm not...
Mamzer,
They should divert it to Yemen immediately...thousands of Arab Muslims are in danger of being starved to death there.
After all, the flotilla is all about helping suffering Muslims, not inciting hatred against Israel, right?
Posted by: C.H. at June 4, 2010 2:32 pm
They should divert it to Yemen immediately...thousands of Arab Muslims are in danger of being starved to death there.
After all, the flotilla is all about helping suffering Muslims, not inciting hatred against Israel, right?
The Israelis released enough video to substantiate their version of events...
I think this fits as a perfect definition of propaganda.
The Israelis have already proven their case.
Really?
Proven it to whom?
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 2:33 pm
I think this fits as a perfect definition of propaganda.
The Israelis have already proven their case.
Really?
Proven it to whom?
C.H.: Mamzer,
They should divert it to Yemen immediately...thousands of Arab Muslims are in danger of being starved to death there.
But what would those starving Arabs do with the mortars, rockets, and other weapons on the ship?
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 2:36 pm
They should divert it to Yemen immediately...thousands of Arab Muslims are in danger of being starved to death there.
But what would those starving Arabs do with the mortars, rockets, and other weapons on the ship?
I wish the world was getting as tired of this idiotic hypocrisy as much as I am...
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177512
Earlier Friday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared at a rally in the Turkish province of Konya that Hamas was not a resistance movement.
Erdogan said Hamas, the legitimate winner of the Palestinian elections, was fighting for its land. "You are always talking about democracy. You’ll never let Hamas rule. What kind of democracy is this?” he was quoted as saying by Turkish daily Hurriyet, apparently addressing the Israeli leadership.
"I do not think that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Erdogan was quoted as saying. "They are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land."
Posted by: C.H. at June 4, 2010 2:36 pm
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177512
Earlier Friday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared at a rally in the Turkish province of Konya that Hamas was not a resistance movement.
Erdogan said Hamas, the legitimate winner of the Palestinian elections, was fighting for its land. "You are always talking about democracy. You’ll never let Hamas rule. What kind of democracy is this?” he was quoted as saying by Turkish daily Hurriyet, apparently addressing the Israeli leadership.
"I do not think that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Erdogan was quoted as saying. "They are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land."
Maybe its time for the US to declare that the PKK are not terrorists.
Or better yet, let's just pass the genocide bill already.
Posted by: C.H. at June 4, 2010 2:38 pm
Or better yet, let's just pass the genocide bill already.
perto: The Israelis have already proven their case.
Really?
Proven it to whom?
To people who aren't bigoted terror-enablers, unlike you.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 2:38 pm
Really?
Proven it to whom?
To people who aren't bigoted terror-enablers, unlike you.
Me:The Israelis released enough video to substantiate their version of events...
Perto: I think this fits as a perfect definition of propaganda.
Ah. So, your version of "propaganda" is when the opposition substantiates their claims? Interesting! :D
Me: The Israelis have already proven their case.
Perto: Really?
Proven it to whom?
Everyone who has eyes and a functioning brain. I have no doubt that even you - perto - are fully aware of what really happened on that ship, and you're attempts to dismiss that reality are based entirely upon a political agenda that you hold more dear than "truth". But that's an issue you'll have to work through on your own. The only one who can set your correct your faulty moral compass is you.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 2:42 pm
Perto: I think this fits as a perfect definition of propaganda.
Ah. So, your version of "propaganda" is when the opposition substantiates their claims? Interesting! :D
Me: The Israelis have already proven their case.
Perto: Really?
Proven it to whom?
Everyone who has eyes and a functioning brain. I have no doubt that even you - perto - are fully aware of what really happened on that ship, and you're attempts to dismiss that reality are based entirely upon a political agenda that you hold more dear than "truth". But that's an issue you'll have to work through on your own. The only one who can set your correct your faulty moral compass is you.
CH,
"I do not think that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Erdogan was quoted as saying. "They are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land."
Maybe its time for the US to declare that the PKK are not terrorists.
Good catch! I'm surprised Erdogan didn't notice how far he got his foot into his mouth in regards to Kurds in Turkey with that statement.
I still think if he could wean himself off the viagra and the testosterone injections, there may be some hope for Turkey.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 2:48 pm
"I do not think that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Erdogan was quoted as saying. "They are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land."
Maybe its time for the US to declare that the PKK are not terrorists.
Good catch! I'm surprised Erdogan didn't notice how far he got his foot into his mouth in regards to Kurds in Turkey with that statement.
I still think if he could wean himself off the viagra and the testosterone injections, there may be some hope for Turkey.
Maybe its time for the US to declare that the PKK are not terrorists.
And then when Erdogan asks why the US shot down so many of his shiny new F-16s while he was chasing terrorists in Iraq, Obama can tell him "Because you said they weren't terrorists", right? :)
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 2:53 pm
And then when Erdogan asks why the US shot down so many of his shiny new F-16s while he was chasing terrorists in Iraq, Obama can tell him "Because you said they weren't terrorists", right? :)
The video at http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928
isn't from the Mavi Marmara, it appears to be from a ship containing smuggled weapons for Hizbullah.
Posted by: Abu Zarnuk at June 4, 2010 2:59 pm
isn't from the Mavi Marmara, it appears to be from a ship containing smuggled weapons for Hizbullah.
Everyone who has eyes and a functioning brain.
The first reports coming from the activists say the Israelis attacked them during prayers, using tear gas and stun grenades.
They also say three journalists and a doctor are among the dead...some shot through the top of the head and some in the back.
That hardly gibes with what the Israelis are saying.
Lets see the full videos, especially the shootings.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 3:03 pm
The first reports coming from the activists say the Israelis attacked them during prayers, using tear gas and stun grenades.
They also say three journalists and a doctor are among the dead...some shot through the top of the head and some in the back.
That hardly gibes with what the Israelis are saying.
Lets see the full videos, especially the shootings.
Note the standard of proof here: not only is it up to Israel to disprove every accusation, but once disproved, it suffices for a new accusation to sustain the hate of the old disproven one.
Posted by: Solomon2 at June 4, 2010 3:06 pm
Maybe its time for the US to declare that the PKK are not terrorists.
That is the single best idea I have heard yet. No, seriously. That should be our next move. But this is Barack Obama we're talking about. We'll have to wait until 2012.
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 3:11 pm
That is the single best idea I have heard yet. No, seriously. That should be our next move. But this is Barack Obama we're talking about. We'll have to wait until 2012.
Note the standard of proof here: not only is it up to Israel to disprove every accusation, but once disproved, it suffices for a new accusation to sustain the hate of the old disproven one.
Yup. The burden is always on Israel to disprove the lunatics, which it always does by the way. But it's still not enough. They just keep repeating the same lie over and over and over again. Which is why we must never relent either.
Posted by: Carlos at June 4, 2010 3:13 pm
Yup. The burden is always on Israel to disprove the lunatics, which it always does by the way. But it's still not enough. They just keep repeating the same lie over and over and over again. Which is why we must never relent either.
Helen Thomas: "Jews get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Poland and Germany"
Anyone remember Helen Thomas - stalwart member of the White House press corps for decades, a liberal media icon?
Well guess what!
She's also a scary Jew-hating bitch.
This has to be seen to be believed.
http://www.breitbart.tv/helen-thomas-tells-jews-get-the-hell-out-of-palestine-and-go-back-to-germany-poland/
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 3:18 pm
Anyone remember Helen Thomas - stalwart member of the White House press corps for decades, a liberal media icon?
Well guess what!
She's also a scary Jew-hating bitch.
This has to be seen to be believed.
http://www.breitbart.tv/helen-thomas-tells-jews-get-the-hell-out-of-palestine-and-go-back-to-germany-poland/
Note the standard of proof here: not only is it up to Israel to disprove every accusation, but once disproved, it suffices for a new accusation to sustain the hate of the old disproven one.
So far, the only proven facts are that the Israelis gunned down nine civilians, including an American.
Everything else is propaganda, spin and conjecture.
I hardly think calling on Israel to release complete, unedited videos of the event is biased.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 3:19 pm
So far, the only proven facts are that the Israelis gunned down nine civilians, including an American.
Everything else is propaganda, spin and conjecture.
I hardly think calling on Israel to release complete, unedited videos of the event is biased.
The first reports coming from the activists say the Israelis attacked them during prayers, using tear gas and stun grenades.
Which was obviously a lie. I have yet to see you admit that the "activists" were lying when they made that claim. When you do so, perhaps we can move on.
They also say three journalists and a doctor are among the dead...some shot through the top of the head and some in the back.
Wounds to the top of the head are quite common on a battlefield. As are wounds to the back.
That hardly gibes with what the Israelis are saying.
I'm not sure why we are believing the accounts of people who engaged in deliberate deceptions in the past, but this statement you make in no way contradicts the Israeli account. It isn't clear to me why you think it does.
Lets see the full videos, especially the shootings.
See? I knew you were aware that the case the IDF makes is solid, and the case the "activists" make is absurd. Why else would you be fishing for something else to hang your hat on, if you thought the existing evidence was in your favor? :P
I asked you half an hour ago to document a claim you made about the Israelis retracting a claim they had made about the terror affiliations of many of the passengers. Can you do so?
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 3:25 pm
Which was obviously a lie. I have yet to see you admit that the "activists" were lying when they made that claim. When you do so, perhaps we can move on.
They also say three journalists and a doctor are among the dead...some shot through the top of the head and some in the back.
Wounds to the top of the head are quite common on a battlefield. As are wounds to the back.
That hardly gibes with what the Israelis are saying.
I'm not sure why we are believing the accounts of people who engaged in deliberate deceptions in the past, but this statement you make in no way contradicts the Israeli account. It isn't clear to me why you think it does.
Lets see the full videos, especially the shootings.
See? I knew you were aware that the case the IDF makes is solid, and the case the "activists" make is absurd. Why else would you be fishing for something else to hang your hat on, if you thought the existing evidence was in your favor? :P
I asked you half an hour ago to document a claim you made about the Israelis retracting a claim they had made about the terror affiliations of many of the passengers. Can you do so?
So far, the only proven facts are that the Israelis gunned down nine civilians, including an American.
Ah, I see you've resorted to lying yourself now. That's unfortunate. I was really trying to take you seriously. Sorry, but if that's your baseline position then there's no point in arguing with you about it.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 3:28 pm
Ah, I see you've resorted to lying yourself now. That's unfortunate. I was really trying to take you seriously. Sorry, but if that's your baseline position then there's no point in arguing with you about it.
Helen Thomas: "Jews get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Poland and Germany"
She really means Auschwitz and Dachau. The Jews have been there and done that, Helen, but thanks for the re-invitation. Very thoughtful and gracious of you.
I think it's time she was disemboweled.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 3:30 pm
She really means Auschwitz and Dachau. The Jews have been there and done that, Helen, but thanks for the re-invitation. Very thoughtful and gracious of you.
I think it's time she was disemboweled.
"I hardly think calling on Israel to release complete, unedited videos of the event is biased. "
Why don't you call on Al-Jazeera to do the same? The anti-Israel videos and pics all have one thing in common: they are middle-of-the story images, and depend on narration to preface them. (Could you make out a movie from just a few frames in the middle?)
On the other hand, the Israelis' videos actually tell a conclusive story by themselves.
I suspect Al-Jaz has more and they're concealing it. They've been caught at that sort of thing before, most notably when they had a video-sharing contract with CNN which was terminated when they refused to hand over material and even insisted upon their own exclusives instead.
Posted by: Solomon2 at June 4, 2010 3:32 pm
Why don't you call on Al-Jazeera to do the same? The anti-Israel videos and pics all have one thing in common: they are middle-of-the story images, and depend on narration to preface them. (Could you make out a movie from just a few frames in the middle?)
On the other hand, the Israelis' videos actually tell a conclusive story by themselves.
I suspect Al-Jaz has more and they're concealing it. They've been caught at that sort of thing before, most notably when they had a video-sharing contract with CNN which was terminated when they refused to hand over material and even insisted upon their own exclusives instead.
Which was obviously a lie.
Craig, the stories from the activists are fairly consistent.
The Israelis launch an attack from their boats during prayers, this attack was repulsed by water cannons.
They next launched the helicopter attack, guns blazing.
When faced with two opposing stories, I disbelieve the one being told by the side hiding evidence.
Not only won't the Israelis release their own complete videos of the attack, they seized every camera and cellphone from the journalists and activists they could, along with the security camera tapes from the ship.
Posted by: perto at June 4, 2010 3:37 pm
Craig, the stories from the activists are fairly consistent.
The Israelis launch an attack from their boats during prayers, this attack was repulsed by water cannons.
They next launched the helicopter attack, guns blazing.
When faced with two opposing stories, I disbelieve the one being told by the side hiding evidence.
Not only won't the Israelis release their own complete videos of the attack, they seized every camera and cellphone from the journalists and activists they could, along with the security camera tapes from the ship.
Carlos: That is the single best idea I have heard yet.
Actually, that's a terrible idea. The PKK really are terrorists. They are also Stalinists, and they've done as much damage to Kurds in Turkey as Hamas has done to Palestinians in Gaza.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 4, 2010 3:37 pm
Actually, that's a terrible idea. The PKK really are terrorists. They are also Stalinists, and they've done as much damage to Kurds in Turkey as Hamas has done to Palestinians in Gaza.
Craig, the stories from the activists are fairly consistent.
You've created a version of the event that not only has no evidence to support it, but that directly contradicts the evidence that the Israelis HAVE provided. Now you insist the Israelis provide even MORE evidence that the activists were lying.
The activists claimed that they were unarmed, that the Israelis were unprovoked, and that they (activists) were shot down for no reason.
Is that the truth, perto?
Honestly, I don't understand how you expect people to debate with you when you cling to a fantasy and ignore the known facts.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 4:25 pm
You've created a version of the event that not only has no evidence to support it, but that directly contradicts the evidence that the Israelis HAVE provided. Now you insist the Israelis provide even MORE evidence that the activists were lying.
The activists claimed that they were unarmed, that the Israelis were unprovoked, and that they (activists) were shot down for no reason.
Is that the truth, perto?
Honestly, I don't understand how you expect people to debate with you when you cling to a fantasy and ignore the known facts.
Mamzer, do me a personal favor and lay off the Thomas bashing. I think she is wrong. She has been consistently wrong on this issue in my opinion. Even icons have flaws and an 89 year old woman is, as I said in another thread, the least of Israel's worries.
She apologized at least. You're not going to change her mind and given her retraction, her comments on the ME are irrelevant.
Her good friend Craig Crawford has never supported such a view and wisdom is knowing where and when to pick the fights....
Of course this is just my opinion and you are free do do whatever you think is best.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 4:45 pm
She apologized at least. You're not going to change her mind and given her retraction, her comments on the ME are irrelevant.
Her good friend Craig Crawford has never supported such a view and wisdom is knowing where and when to pick the fights....
Of course this is just my opinion and you are free do do whatever you think is best.
Maxtrue: Mamzer, do me a personal favor and lay off the Thomas bashing.
I had my rant and now I'm done with it. It took a couple of posts. Sometimes it just works that way. My grandfather was from Warsaw - his huge extended family were from Warsaw, too - none survived. He was a good man but a broken man my whole childhood. I take it personally. When I hear such visceral hatred, I'm not sure how to process it. I can't relate.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 4:56 pm
I had my rant and now I'm done with it. It took a couple of posts. Sometimes it just works that way. My grandfather was from Warsaw - his huge extended family were from Warsaw, too - none survived. He was a good man but a broken man my whole childhood. I take it personally. When I hear such visceral hatred, I'm not sure how to process it. I can't relate.
"Go back to Auschwitz" and "remember 9/11" was the response from the activists when IDF told them not to break the blockade or be boarded. Israel has released the audio. Just Google...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=pm-describes-hamas-as-resister-for-own-lands-2010-06-04
This paper will not post my comments or links. I didn't imagine they would reprint the Letter to the Turkish Government posted here last night or We Conned the World, nor any blast of facts counter to the narrative. In fact, some journalists have suddenly switched sides.
Turkey says Hamas is fighting for their land? Hamas has 100% of Gaza. What land unless Turkey just said Israel is Palestinian land. If so, then Israel and Turkey are at the cross roads of war. Turkey is now making the same claims as Iran. But so far they have not shown anyone they can do anything and this runs the risk of looking silly.
At what point does the military start looking at coup options? If they are privy to actual war plans coordinated with Syria, Iran, Hizb'Allah and Hamas, they must decide who they will take orders from, a foreign lead President leading them into darkness or the national interests of Turkey.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 5:19 pm
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=pm-describes-hamas-as-resister-for-own-lands-2010-06-04
This paper will not post my comments or links. I didn't imagine they would reprint the Letter to the Turkish Government posted here last night or We Conned the World, nor any blast of facts counter to the narrative. In fact, some journalists have suddenly switched sides.
Turkey says Hamas is fighting for their land? Hamas has 100% of Gaza. What land unless Turkey just said Israel is Palestinian land. If so, then Israel and Turkey are at the cross roads of war. Turkey is now making the same claims as Iran. But so far they have not shown anyone they can do anything and this runs the risk of looking silly.
At what point does the military start looking at coup options? If they are privy to actual war plans coordinated with Syria, Iran, Hizb'Allah and Hamas, they must decide who they will take orders from, a foreign lead President leading them into darkness or the national interests of Turkey.
I get it Mamzer. I understand, but she obviously doesn't but good people have said good things about a number or her efforts and observations. I am also distressed if the blowback will land on some of her associates who had nothing to do with her ME views......
In fact. it might be possible Michael can get a crack at interviewing her if he wishes. That would be very interesting. I asked her camp if that were possible before I even bother to ask Michael if he IS at all interested. No word back so far. Bobby Bran would be a better subject, but again I hardly have a clue what Michael would say......and I don't want to seem presumptuous or his booking agent.
Bobby Bran? Michael, his posts at Stubborn Facts are on archive. He is quite involved in what is going on in Afghanistan and was very involved with getting the Great Awakening off the ground in Iraq at the darkest hours......I believe as an officer "with a weapon" involved.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 4, 2010 5:37 pm
In fact. it might be possible Michael can get a crack at interviewing her if he wishes. That would be very interesting. I asked her camp if that were possible before I even bother to ask Michael if he IS at all interested. No word back so far. Bobby Bran would be a better subject, but again I hardly have a clue what Michael would say......and I don't want to seem presumptuous or his booking agent.
Bobby Bran? Michael, his posts at Stubborn Facts are on archive. He is quite involved in what is going on in Afghanistan and was very involved with getting the Great Awakening off the ground in Iraq at the darkest hours......I believe as an officer "with a weapon" involved.....
Everyone cool what?
They found aid supplies on the first ship. The second ship can certainly be inspected to see what it is delivering while it's in international waters.
I don't really see the need for any intervention on Israel's part unless the actual point is to deny aid being delivered.
I'm no international law expert, but I'd be seven kinds of surprised if that's legal. Was there some kind of international agreement that supports denying this humanitarian aid to Gaza?
If not then I don't really know how much clearer this situation and how it should be resolved could get.
Posted by: Bank at June 4, 2010 5:39 pm
They found aid supplies on the first ship. The second ship can certainly be inspected to see what it is delivering while it's in international waters.
I don't really see the need for any intervention on Israel's part unless the actual point is to deny aid being delivered.
I'm no international law expert, but I'd be seven kinds of surprised if that's legal. Was there some kind of international agreement that supports denying this humanitarian aid to Gaza?
If not then I don't really know how much clearer this situation and how it should be resolved could get.
Bank: I'm no international law expert, but I'd be seven kinds of surprised if that's legal. Was there some kind of international agreement that supports denying this humanitarian aid to Gaza?
You're also no expert at reading the news. Israel never denied aid. She offered to transfer it by land, after inspection. Jeez.
Read this to understand why the cargo must be inspected prior to delivery:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Potassium+nitrate+discovered+in+sugar+bags+marked+as+EU+assistance+29-Dec-2007.htm
6.5 tons of potassium nitrate discovered in sugar bags marked as EU assistance
Bags marked as EU-imported sugar containing potassium nitrate used to produce explosives in Gaza
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 5:52 pm
You're also no expert at reading the news. Israel never denied aid. She offered to transfer it by land, after inspection. Jeez.
Read this to understand why the cargo must be inspected prior to delivery:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Potassium+nitrate+discovered+in+sugar+bags+marked+as+EU+assistance+29-Dec-2007.htm
6.5 tons of potassium nitrate discovered in sugar bags marked as EU assistance
Bags marked as EU-imported sugar containing potassium nitrate used to produce explosives in Gaza
Maxtrue: I get it Mamzer. I understand, but she obviously doesn't but good people have said good things about a number or her efforts and observations.
Of course, everybody has positive and negative traits. I don't doubt she does positive things in her life. However, when I'm told to go back to Auschwitz, I'll hold it against her. Yes, I know she didn't actually say 'Auschwitz', but she needs to be reminded that people will hear it that way, and for good reason. Have you seen these protesters on the streets and campuses of the USA and in Europe telling Jews everywhere (not just Israelis) to get back in the ovens? I haven't heard her apology, and frankly, I'm skeptical I would accept it. She's too sophisticated and experienced in life not to know better. I believe a window opened on her soul, and the view was horrifying. I won't pick on her anymore, but you have to understand that words do matter. A lot.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 6:02 pm
Of course, everybody has positive and negative traits. I don't doubt she does positive things in her life. However, when I'm told to go back to Auschwitz, I'll hold it against her. Yes, I know she didn't actually say 'Auschwitz', but she needs to be reminded that people will hear it that way, and for good reason. Have you seen these protesters on the streets and campuses of the USA and in Europe telling Jews everywhere (not just Israelis) to get back in the ovens? I haven't heard her apology, and frankly, I'm skeptical I would accept it. She's too sophisticated and experienced in life not to know better. I believe a window opened on her soul, and the view was horrifying. I won't pick on her anymore, but you have to understand that words do matter. A lot.
Suck on the Perta:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36480_NPR-_Details_Emerge_on_Slain_Radicals
Posted by: semite5000 at June 4, 2010 6:33 pm
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36480_NPR-_Details_Emerge_on_Slain_Radicals
""Go back to Auschwitz" and "remember 9/11" was the response from the activists when IDF told them not to break the blockade or be boarded."
Oh my God. Was this over the radio?
Li'l Mamzer, my deep condolences over your Grandfather's family. I didn't know.
Posted by: anan at June 4, 2010 6:40 pm
Oh my God. Was this over the radio?
Li'l Mamzer, my deep condolences over your Grandfather's family. I didn't know.
"You're also no expert at reading the news. Israel never denied aid. She offered to transfer it by land, after inspection. Jeez."
Hi. We're posting comments under a story about Israel enforcing a blockade against ships on which nothing other than aid was found.
If they had offered land transfers AND hot air balloon delivery, this still wouldn't change the fact they're enforcing a blockade against a ships carrying aid.
"Read this to understand why the cargo must be inspected prior to delivery"
No. You read the post you quoted which stated the inspection of future ships as the only consideration regarding them. Not even whether they floated on water, just that they were inspected before arriving.
Posted by: Bank at June 4, 2010 6:53 pm
Hi. We're posting comments under a story about Israel enforcing a blockade against ships on which nothing other than aid was found.
If they had offered land transfers AND hot air balloon delivery, this still wouldn't change the fact they're enforcing a blockade against a ships carrying aid.
"Read this to understand why the cargo must be inspected prior to delivery"
No. You read the post you quoted which stated the inspection of future ships as the only consideration regarding them. Not even whether they floated on water, just that they were inspected before arriving.
Bank, if Israel doesn't enforce the blockade then *any* ship can get through, and obviously many of those ships will contain weapons for Hamas to use against Israel. That's why there is a blockade. It doesn't matter if at this point most of the ships aren't carrying weapons. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?
I don't really understand your other points.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 4, 2010 6:57 pm
I don't really understand your other points.
Bank: Hi. We're posting comments under a story about Israel enforcing a blockade against ships on which nothing other than aid was found.
If they had offered land transfers AND hot air balloon delivery, this still wouldn't change the fact they're enforcing a blockade against a ships carrying aid.
How do you know there is actual and allowable aid on the boats if you don't inspect?
Take the word of people chanting for jihad, a return to Auschwitz, and other reassuring words?
Israelis may sometimes be fools, but they're not stupid.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 7:04 pm
If they had offered land transfers AND hot air balloon delivery, this still wouldn't change the fact they're enforcing a blockade against a ships carrying aid.
How do you know there is actual and allowable aid on the boats if you don't inspect?
Take the word of people chanting for jihad, a return to Auschwitz, and other reassuring words?
Israelis may sometimes be fools, but they're not stupid.
Bank: If they had offered land transfers AND hot air balloon delivery, this still wouldn't change the fact they're enforcing a blockade against a ships carrying aid.
The fact remains that the aid does get through, by land, to the intended destination.
I'm getting the sense the issue to you isn't the aid, but the blockade. In this respect, you are just like those Jihadi assholes on the Lynch Boat.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 4, 2010 7:07 pm
The fact remains that the aid does get through, by land, to the intended destination.
I'm getting the sense the issue to you isn't the aid, but the blockade. In this respect, you are just like those Jihadi assholes on the Lynch Boat.
"The fact remains that the aid does get through, by land, to the intended destination."
Terrific. Either this fact means the ship described in this story becomes fictional or it doesn't. Take some time, have a think about the point you're missing and don't get back to me on the outcome.
Posted by: Bank at June 4, 2010 7:17 pm
Terrific. Either this fact means the ship described in this story becomes fictional or it doesn't. Take some time, have a think about the point you're missing and don't get back to me on the outcome.
Li'l Mamzer, DON'T listen to Maxtrue. You SHOULD get outraged and stay outraged at this filthy, evil, rotten and rotting Nazi bitch.
"I know she didn't actually say 'Auschwitz', but she needs to be reminded that people will hear it that way"
No she DOESN'T need to be reminded because she MEANT Auschwitz. Like all the other antisemitic dummies (including a few regular posters in Michael's comments) she thinks she's cleverly hiding her Jew-hatred exactly when she is exposing it.
"everybody has positive and negative traits"
Hitler was kind to his dog.
"She apologized at least"
Forced and insincere. NO WAY the Jew-hating bitch meant it. People have lost their jobs for far less - Trent Lott and Al Campanis come immediately to mind.
"Her good friend Craig Crawford has never supported such a view"
Who the hell is Craig Crawford and why should we give a flying fuck? It is surprising that this disgusting old crone has any friends at all, let alone one who doesn't share her annihilationist vision for da Jooooos.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 4, 2010 8:23 pm
"I know she didn't actually say 'Auschwitz', but she needs to be reminded that people will hear it that way"
No she DOESN'T need to be reminded because she MEANT Auschwitz. Like all the other antisemitic dummies (including a few regular posters in Michael's comments) she thinks she's cleverly hiding her Jew-hatred exactly when she is exposing it.
"everybody has positive and negative traits"
Hitler was kind to his dog.
"She apologized at least"
Forced and insincere. NO WAY the Jew-hating bitch meant it. People have lost their jobs for far less - Trent Lott and Al Campanis come immediately to mind.
"Her good friend Craig Crawford has never supported such a view"
Who the hell is Craig Crawford and why should we give a flying fuck? It is surprising that this disgusting old crone has any friends at all, let alone one who doesn't share her annihilationist vision for da Jooooos.
"Li'l Mamzer, my deep condolences over your Grandfather's family."
Go fuck yourself, anand. Your entire purpose in posting here has been to pimp for those who want to have a second Auschwitz - Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRI.
By the way, in a previous thread where I said that antisemites are "nitwits, misfucks and born losers" I very definitely included you in that group. I want to be clear on this point so there is no misunderstanding.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 4, 2010 8:27 pm
Go fuck yourself, anand. Your entire purpose in posting here has been to pimp for those who want to have a second Auschwitz - Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRI.
By the way, in a previous thread where I said that antisemites are "nitwits, misfucks and born losers" I very definitely included you in that group. I want to be clear on this point so there is no misunderstanding.
jb: "But if true, its very damning for the "aid-flotilla" and its organizers.
But more importantly, the markings indicate probably that they are US manufactured. Could they be from Turkish inventory?"
I could be wrong, but it is quite possible these things have unique serial numbers and can be traced back to whom there were sold to by manufacturer. However, I still find it hard to believe for Turkey to make such a dumb move.
Posted by: leo at June 4, 2010 8:50 pm
But more importantly, the markings indicate probably that they are US manufactured. Could they be from Turkish inventory?"
I could be wrong, but it is quite possible these things have unique serial numbers and can be traced back to whom there were sold to by manufacturer. However, I still find it hard to believe for Turkey to make such a dumb move.
petro: "Releasing all the tapes, unedited would be the honest thing to do."
Now you are being silly.
Assuming anything happened at all why would Israel implicate itself?
It is the war and each side has to show enemy in the wost light possible and show themselves in the best light possible.
There is nothing fair about this, but it is what it is.
Israel has shown enough evidence (not lies) to make its enemy look bad.
Now it is your turn to show enough evidence (not lies) to make Israel look bad.
And if you truly believe it is Israel's job to prove your case you have another news coming.
Posted by: leo at June 4, 2010 9:04 pm
Now you are being silly.
Assuming anything happened at all why would Israel implicate itself?
It is the war and each side has to show enemy in the wost light possible and show themselves in the best light possible.
There is nothing fair about this, but it is what it is.
Israel has shown enough evidence (not lies) to make its enemy look bad.
Now it is your turn to show enough evidence (not lies) to make Israel look bad.
And if you truly believe it is Israel's job to prove your case you have another news coming.
petro: "So far, the only proven facts are that the Israelis gunned down nine civilians, including an American."
Actually it is a lie.
So called peace activists overpowered Israeli soldiers, took their weapons and show themselves in the name of martyrdom and in hope to blame Israel in their death.
BTW, Israelis have jihadi's letters written before their death and those letters prove just that.
Posted by: leo at June 4, 2010 9:16 pm
Actually it is a lie.
So called peace activists overpowered Israeli soldiers, took their weapons and show themselves in the name of martyrdom and in hope to blame Israel in their death.
BTW, Israelis have jihadi's letters written before their death and those letters prove just that.
"shot themselves", not "show themselves".
Posted by: leo at June 4, 2010 9:17 pm
Maxtrue: "Turkey says Hamas is fighting for their land? Hamas has 100% of Gaza. What land unless Turkey just said Israel is Palestinian land."
I visited Topkapi Palace in Istambul in the May of 2001. They had contemporary map of the Middle East, which did not have Israel on it.
Posted by: leo at June 4, 2010 9:23 pm
I visited Topkapi Palace in Istambul in the May of 2001. They had contemporary map of the Middle East, which did not have Israel on it.
Hi. We're posting comments under a story about Israel enforcing a blockade against ships on which nothing other than aid was found.
That's untrue, Bank. Some 600 shaheeds were also found. That one ship was a Turkish troop transport posing as a civilian freighter.
And even if the convoy wasn't transporting troops, the whole idea of a blockade is to impose a 100% interdiction. Not a selective interdiction. Nothing gets through without inspection. Otherwise, it isn't a blockade at all.
So... take some time, have a think about the point you're missing and don't get back to me on the outcome.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 9:28 pm
That's untrue, Bank. Some 600 shaheeds were also found. That one ship was a Turkish troop transport posing as a civilian freighter.
And even if the convoy wasn't transporting troops, the whole idea of a blockade is to impose a 100% interdiction. Not a selective interdiction. Nothing gets through without inspection. Otherwise, it isn't a blockade at all.
So... take some time, have a think about the point you're missing and don't get back to me on the outcome.
I could be wrong, but it is quite possible these things have unique serial numbers and can be traced back to whom there were sold to by manufacturer.
Yes, they have lot numbers.
However, I still find it hard to believe for Turkey to make such a dumb move.
Why? Everyone will just blame it on the Kurds, or on "smugglers", or something. Saddam had shitloads of ammo that was sold by the US to Jordan during the Iraq sanctions. Plausible deniability is easy when everyone wants to look the other way.
Posted by: Craig at June 4, 2010 9:34 pm
Yes, they have lot numbers.
However, I still find it hard to believe for Turkey to make such a dumb move.
Why? Everyone will just blame it on the Kurds, or on "smugglers", or something. Saddam had shitloads of ammo that was sold by the US to Jordan during the Iraq sanctions. Plausible deniability is easy when everyone wants to look the other way.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla/index.html
At a weekly anti-Israeli wall protest in the West Bank village of Bil'in, demonstrators flashed peace signs and waved Turkish flags as they marched beside a protest boat on wheels, which they said was a symbol of solidarity with those killed on the Gaza flotilla.
No, CNN, you got it wrong. That's "V for Victory", not a peace sign.
"We're just hopeful the Israelis will let us make a small gesture for the people of Palestine," Halliday said Thursday. "Because we believe Monday was a gross error."
He added that Monday's confrontation resulted from "faults on both sides," saying the effort on the Rachel Corrie is a "different ball game."
No, unfortunately it's not a different ball game. The blockade breaching effort will be associated with violent Islamists now and forever more. If that's not what "Free Gaza" wanted, then "Free Gaza" shouldn't have gotten into bed with violent Islamists. It's just that simple.
Posted by: Craig at June 5, 2010 12:05 am
At a weekly anti-Israeli wall protest in the West Bank village of Bil'in, demonstrators flashed peace signs and waved Turkish flags as they marched beside a protest boat on wheels, which they said was a symbol of solidarity with those killed on the Gaza flotilla.
No, CNN, you got it wrong. That's "V for Victory", not a peace sign.
"We're just hopeful the Israelis will let us make a small gesture for the people of Palestine," Halliday said Thursday. "Because we believe Monday was a gross error."
He added that Monday's confrontation resulted from "faults on both sides," saying the effort on the Rachel Corrie is a "different ball game."
No, unfortunately it's not a different ball game. The blockade breaching effort will be associated with violent Islamists now and forever more. If that's not what "Free Gaza" wanted, then "Free Gaza" shouldn't have gotten into bed with violent Islamists. It's just that simple.
Gary Rosen: You SHOULD get outraged and stay outraged at this filthy, evil, rotten and rotting Nazi bitch.
No worries. I said I would lay off the serial hag-bashing at MJT's blog, not change my deliberative thought processes. She's a write-off. Good point about Hitler's attention to the little things. I was gonna make a similar point but was rushing myself.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 5, 2010 6:00 am
No worries. I said I would lay off the serial hag-bashing at MJT's blog, not change my deliberative thought processes. She's a write-off. Good point about Hitler's attention to the little things. I was gonna make a similar point but was rushing myself.
IHH and Al Qaeda - This report by the Danish Institute for International Studies ( http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf pages 15 - 18) shows Turkish based IHH is linked to Al Qaeda, including direct support of AlQaeda's attempt to bomb LAX - The Millenium bomb plot.
In 2008 the U.S. declares IHH a foreign terrorist organization. Tue, Aug 11 2009WASHINGTON (Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE56165320090702 ).
Blockade - legal or illegal.
"CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA? [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602 ]
Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea." [http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMSU ]
Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.
"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.
WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?
Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.
There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.
"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.
The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.
Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.
CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?
Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.
"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.
Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.
Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.
"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.
The use of force may also have other repercussions.
"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments...However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point"
Posted by: davod at June 5, 2010 6:33 am
In 2008 the U.S. declares IHH a foreign terrorist organization. Tue, Aug 11 2009WASHINGTON (Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE56165320090702 ).
Blockade - legal or illegal.
"CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA? [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602 ]
Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea." [http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMSU ]
Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.
"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.
WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?
Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.
There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.
"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.
The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.
Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.
CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?
Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.
"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.
Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.
Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.
"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.
The use of force may also have other repercussions.
"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments...However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point"
Michael, you left a key paragraph out of your quote. It says that Israeli soldiers fired first before landing on the deck.
T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots before rappelling down onto the deck. “They didn’t even flinch,” he said. “Regular people would move.”
Full article is here:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445
Posted by: Elrond Hubbard at June 7, 2010 6:53 am
T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots before rappelling down onto the deck. “They didn’t even flinch,” he said. “Regular people would move.”
Full article is here:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445
Elrond Hubbard,
My understanding is that the first attempt to board the Marmara was by small boat, alongside. The IDF soldiers were attacked with water hoses, boxes of plates dropped from 2 stories up etc. That boarding attempt basically failed. Shortly afterward, boarding was effected by rappelling down from helicopters, immediately preceded by stun grenades.
The use of stun grenades and warning shots prior to rappelling was a restrained response considering the behavior of the jihadis on the Marmara during the immediately prior unsuccessful boarding attempt.
Posted by: del at June 8, 2010 9:52 am
My understanding is that the first attempt to board the Marmara was by small boat, alongside. The IDF soldiers were attacked with water hoses, boxes of plates dropped from 2 stories up etc. That boarding attempt basically failed. Shortly afterward, boarding was effected by rappelling down from helicopters, immediately preceded by stun grenades.
The use of stun grenades and warning shots prior to rappelling was a restrained response considering the behavior of the jihadis on the Marmara during the immediately prior unsuccessful boarding attempt.
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