June 15, 2010
EU Chief Warns of Dictatorships in Europe?
Good grief. I very much doubt that Europe is going this badly to hell, but the fact that it's being discussed isn't encouraging:
Democracy could 'collapse' in Greece, Spain and Portugal unless urgent action is taken to tackle the debt crisis, the head of the European Commission has warned.
In an extraordinary briefing to trade union chiefs last week, Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso set out an 'apocalyptic' vision in which crisis-hit countries in southern Europe could fall victim to military coups or popular uprisings as interest rates soar and public services collapse because their governments run out of money.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 15, 2010 11:35 PM
Comments
Initially it struck me as humorous to hear Greeks shutting down their country with strikes and protests for not continuing to receive a very high level of cradle to grave government subsidies that exceeded the capabilities of their government to provide. Then to listen to them almost threatening war with Germany for refusing to make up the difference that Greece can't afford.
It couldn't be for real, right? They couldn't really have built a system that convinced the people they could get a level of benefits they can't afford, built a level of bureaucracy (both in their country and another layer with the EU) that consumes a major portion of the economy without producing, and believe the yearly pronouncements of benefits retitled as human rights? Right, right? (Wasn't the human right to internet access announced last year? Yes it was - http://www.betanews.com/article/EU-Parliament-approves-law-ensuring-Internet-access-as-a-fundamental-right/1241651104 )
For someone outside of Europe, especially Americans, it seems pretty ridiculous. OR IT DID until the current US administration started trying to do the same thing.
Certainly after a generation of such an approach, taking it away must seem like an attack on their way of life. To fight back is a natural response, but doesn't work so well against an economy or a debt.
I think I actually agree. Falling governments and even takeovers become possible.
Posted by: Akiva at June 16, 2010 12:15 am
It couldn't be for real, right? They couldn't really have built a system that convinced the people they could get a level of benefits they can't afford, built a level of bureaucracy (both in their country and another layer with the EU) that consumes a major portion of the economy without producing, and believe the yearly pronouncements of benefits retitled as human rights? Right, right? (Wasn't the human right to internet access announced last year? Yes it was - http://www.betanews.com/article/EU-Parliament-approves-law-ensuring-Internet-access-as-a-fundamental-right/1241651104 )
For someone outside of Europe, especially Americans, it seems pretty ridiculous. OR IT DID until the current US administration started trying to do the same thing.
Certainly after a generation of such an approach, taking it away must seem like an attack on their way of life. To fight back is a natural response, but doesn't work so well against an economy or a debt.
I think I actually agree. Falling governments and even takeovers become possible.
They need to downsize their governments and have more children. Not that complicated. We need to do the same.
Posted by: Joe at June 16, 2010 2:11 am
Not long ago, I noticed that Spain's unemployment rate was 3.5 points higher than Michigan's; Michigan's unemployment rate recently is around 14.1%, the highest in the United States.
So, imagine a pyramid...with an expanding base of non-contributing dependents. And a shrinking tip of providers.
As Margaret Thatcher said, eventually socialism runs out of other people's money.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 2:19 am
So, imagine a pyramid...with an expanding base of non-contributing dependents. And a shrinking tip of providers.
As Margaret Thatcher said, eventually socialism runs out of other people's money.
I think (hope) the next decade will see a huge shrinkage of government here and in Europe. We just can't afford this gov any more. Wait till we throw out the idiots in November and again in 2012.
Posted by: Joe at June 16, 2010 2:26 am
I hope you're right, Joe. But takers have received an incentive not to become so successful as makers that they then become the ones relied upon to fund it all.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 2:38 am
The Scottish Jurist and Historian Sir Alex Fraser Tyler published a collection of lectures in 1801. He advanced a theory of democracy based on historical observation:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can exist only until voters discover that they can vote themselves largesses from the public treasury. From that time on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship..."
Posted by: Toady at June 16, 2010 5:42 am
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can exist only until voters discover that they can vote themselves largesses from the public treasury. From that time on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship..."
In the past, even in the United States, the voting franchise was only given to people with a minimum of property. I'm not saying we should change our system - but now I understand the reasoning behind the property requirement.
Posted by: Jonathan Levy at June 16, 2010 5:55 am
The impression I get is that once again, there's a serious disconnect between what the people want, and what the self-styled elites in Brussels and the halls of government want. The EU hasn't had real democracy in some time; look at how they force Ireland to vote over and over on EU referenda until the voters vote the way Brussels wants.
Brussels seems to want an ever-expanding superstate apparatus, which is why they're responding that this crisis proves Brussels needs greater control over national economies, rather than suggesting that perhaps Greece was never suited to the Euro in the first place.
I've read that the people in Germany were pretty solidly opposed to the bailout plan, but that it was Merkel's parliamentary majority that passed it over the wishes of the people, who promptly punished her by taking away her majority in the upper house of parliament.
Posted by: Ted S. at June 16, 2010 6:12 am
Brussels seems to want an ever-expanding superstate apparatus, which is why they're responding that this crisis proves Brussels needs greater control over national economies, rather than suggesting that perhaps Greece was never suited to the Euro in the first place.
I've read that the people in Germany were pretty solidly opposed to the bailout plan, but that it was Merkel's parliamentary majority that passed it over the wishes of the people, who promptly punished her by taking away her majority in the upper house of parliament.
The situation could very well be as bad as this suggests, though we would do well to keep in mind that apocalyptic thinking like this plays well into the hands of those who want to make a true political super-state out of Europe. I suspect Barroso is one of those with a vested interest in such an outcome.
Posted by: Gene at June 16, 2010 6:45 am
Jonathan
One could argue a person shouldn't vote if he is on welfare, or if he draws more from the government than he puts in in taxes. Of course, a liberal will kill me for even suggesting this, since it would destroy the whole 'spread the wealth' notion. But isn't what we have now 'Representation without Taxation' for the 40% or so who pay no federal taxes, yet vote their people in office.
Posted by: Joe at June 16, 2010 7:10 am
One could argue a person shouldn't vote if he is on welfare, or if he draws more from the government than he puts in in taxes. Of course, a liberal will kill me for even suggesting this, since it would destroy the whole 'spread the wealth' notion. But isn't what we have now 'Representation without Taxation' for the 40% or so who pay no federal taxes, yet vote their people in office.
"They need to downsize their governments and have more children. "
Downsize the government - yes, but that will increase unemployment.
More children - that would be crazy, when they don't have enough jobs for the population they have now. Europe is heavily over-populated.
Posted by: Don Cox at June 16, 2010 7:15 am
Downsize the government - yes, but that will increase unemployment.
More children - that would be crazy, when they don't have enough jobs for the population they have now. Europe is heavily over-populated.
"those who want to make a true political super-state out of Europe."
I am one of those. I would like to see a United States of Europe, with a constitution closely modelled on that of the USA.
Can anyone deny that over the past 150 years, the USA has been much more successful than Europe?
Posted by: Don Cox at June 16, 2010 7:18 am
I am one of those. I would like to see a United States of Europe, with a constitution closely modelled on that of the USA.
Can anyone deny that over the past 150 years, the USA has been much more successful than Europe?
Then to listen to them almost threatening war with Germany for refusing to make up the difference that Greece can't afford.
This is only half the story. Of course the Greeks want to live beyond their means. But a large and increasing proportion of Greek public expenditure goes on servicing the interest payments on the government debt. Normally a government in Greece's situation would devalue its currency, and restructure its debt (ie. negotiate the details of a partial default with its creditors). Both of these have the effect of reducing the interest burden, sharing the pain between the bad debtor and the unwise creditors. (Of course devaluation also has the effect of a "stealthy" general pay cut in the devaluing country.) Greece can't devalue because it's in the Euro. However, Euro members are perfectly entitled to default. But instead Greece is being offered a mountain of soft loans from the other EU member states in exchange for not defaulting at all - and in fact, unlike default, this is completely in violation of the European treaty. Why do this? Simple: because many of Greece's creditors can't take the hit of a restructuring. In other words, the Greek "rescue" is another stealth bailout for European banks, in particular for big banks in the supposedly well-behaved creditor countries. The name of the game is Too Big To Fail, also known as No More Lehmans. But don't take my word for it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/15/world/europe/15germany.html?src=mv
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Analysis/2010/06/16/Economic-Outlook-European-unity/UPI-63231276691130/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704324304575306721209548624.html?mod=fox_australian
three articles on Germany and France...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 8:05 am
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Analysis/2010/06/16/Economic-Outlook-European-unity/UPI-63231276691130/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704324304575306721209548624.html?mod=fox_australian
three articles on Germany and France...
This is the usual bollocks uttered by EU elites to justify ever bigger power grabs- give us more power or it'll be World War II all over again. It's hard to tell whether they believe it or not. If they do then they're vision of Europe is of a continent constantly teetering on the brink of genocide unless chaps like Herbert Van Rompuy are there to stop us.
Posted by: Vern at June 16, 2010 8:13 am
All this is just a way to hurry up and create a unified Europe.
Posted by: Think of England at June 16, 2010 8:30 am
Michael, why are you surprised? History shows that democracies vote themselves benefits based on taking Other People’s Money. The addiction to OPM must stop-gov’t must reduce spending (not increase it!). To the addicts, as long as there is anybody who is “rich”, who has more money than they have, they think the gov’t should take it for the benefits, and the ever-increasing benefits. The benefits must decrease.
Of course the Greek protesters don’t like it. That’s why elected officials have such trouble enacting successful policies, and satisfying the protesters while not over-taxing. A military coup would quickly get them off the street, and allow a military run gov’t to slim down very rapidly.
Military dictatorships have their own problems, but going deeply into debt is not usually among their worst problems.
Better would be for the Greeks to print Greek bonds, and give these bonds to those now getting euros from the gov’t.
Another possibility might be for the Greeks to lease Corfu, or some other island with an airport, to the Germans (or China?), for 99 years. Like Hong Kong.
Another option is for Greeks to increase the tax rates, and drive even more of the working Greeks to leave … that’s probably a path towards dictatorship, and seems to be the path the not-thinking clearly mobs prefer, rather than spending cuts. But Greece is already over taxed and way on the side where tax rate reductions, with more enforcement, would bring in more tax revenue; and most tax rate increases will likely bring in less. (A better enforced property tax would likely be one which brings in more to gov’t.)
Taxes on the rich are job destroying – most workers work for the “rich”, who pay employees more when they are taxed less, and less when they are taxed more (not fully proportional, but in those directions). Those who want higher pay at work, need to ask for lower taxes on the successful businesses.
Posted by: Tom Grey at June 16, 2010 9:19 am
Of course the Greek protesters don’t like it. That’s why elected officials have such trouble enacting successful policies, and satisfying the protesters while not over-taxing. A military coup would quickly get them off the street, and allow a military run gov’t to slim down very rapidly.
Military dictatorships have their own problems, but going deeply into debt is not usually among their worst problems.
Better would be for the Greeks to print Greek bonds, and give these bonds to those now getting euros from the gov’t.
Another possibility might be for the Greeks to lease Corfu, or some other island with an airport, to the Germans (or China?), for 99 years. Like Hong Kong.
Another option is for Greeks to increase the tax rates, and drive even more of the working Greeks to leave … that’s probably a path towards dictatorship, and seems to be the path the not-thinking clearly mobs prefer, rather than spending cuts. But Greece is already over taxed and way on the side where tax rate reductions, with more enforcement, would bring in more tax revenue; and most tax rate increases will likely bring in less. (A better enforced property tax would likely be one which brings in more to gov’t.)
Taxes on the rich are job destroying – most workers work for the “rich”, who pay employees more when they are taxed less, and less when they are taxed more (not fully proportional, but in those directions). Those who want higher pay at work, need to ask for lower taxes on the successful businesses.
http://volokh.com/2010/06/12/habermas-on-the-euro-crisis-and-the-necessity-of-doubling-down-on-the-europe-project/
unification means many things to many people...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 9:19 am
unification means many things to many people...
"Initially it struck me as humorous to hear Greeks shutting down their country with strikes and protests for not continuing to receive a very high level of cradle to grave government subsidies that exceeded the capabilities of their government to provide."
It isn't new. Back in the 80s Greek college students demonstrated for higher pay and the right to live in tourist hotels. One of my profs, a Greek, took his best students from Greece to the U.S., just so they could learn without such distractions.
He also explained to me that Greek politics was "small" and shouldn't be taken entirely seriously. The implication is that if the E.U. stonewalled Greece, the Greeks would calm down and comply as required.
Posted by: Solomon2 at June 16, 2010 9:50 am
It isn't new. Back in the 80s Greek college students demonstrated for higher pay and the right to live in tourist hotels. One of my profs, a Greek, took his best students from Greece to the U.S., just so they could learn without such distractions.
He also explained to me that Greek politics was "small" and shouldn't be taken entirely seriously. The implication is that if the E.U. stonewalled Greece, the Greeks would calm down and comply as required.
Some differences between the US and Europe:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/saudi_sharia_laws_applied_in_us_courts/comment-page-1/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/oklahoma-pass-laws-prohibiting-islamic-sharia-laws-apply/story?id=10908521&page=2
The Europeans should have had this deliberation a while back.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 9:51 am
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/saudi_sharia_laws_applied_in_us_courts/comment-page-1/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/oklahoma-pass-laws-prohibiting-islamic-sharia-laws-apply/story?id=10908521&page=2
The Europeans should have had this deliberation a while back.....
Tom: History shows that democracies vote themselves benefits based on taking Other People’s Money.
Okay, but when has that led to dictatorship in Europe? Spain is not Venezuela.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 16, 2010 10:39 am
Okay, but when has that led to dictatorship in Europe? Spain is not Venezuela.
My understanding is that the problem in Greece is not that the benefits are excessive, but that nobody pays their taxes. If the Greeks were more honest and paid taxes in full, there would be plenty of money for the benefits.
However, the retirement age in several EU countries is absurdly low. With modern medicine and life expectancy, the default retirement age should be at least 70. Anyone who cannot work for health reasons could still claim a sickness benefit. Giving state pensions to fit and healthy 65-year-olds seems to me to be an extravagance.
Posted by: Don Cox at June 16, 2010 10:52 am
However, the retirement age in several EU countries is absurdly low. With modern medicine and life expectancy, the default retirement age should be at least 70. Anyone who cannot work for health reasons could still claim a sickness benefit. Giving state pensions to fit and healthy 65-year-olds seems to me to be an extravagance.
http://www.rferl.org/content/Sphere_Reluctance_Russia_Hesitant_Kyrgyz_Intervention/2072776.html
A world of mutual spheres of reluctance....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 11:14 am
A world of mutual spheres of reluctance....
Don (Corroborating what you just said)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8682174.stm
Somewhat disturbing on multiple fronts, theres lots more articles out there that point out extreme tax evasion and corruption throughout Greek society.
At the risk of sounding racist, I have dealt with (and heard second hand) many cases where Greeks are almost blatantly open about corruption and cheating.
Personal story... I went to speak with a Greek professor about my homework and the conversation went something like this:
Professor (out of nowhere): So, do you cheat?
Me (Scared and shocked): Uh... no. Ive collaborated with other students on the homework but always made sure to have their names on the submissions as such.
Professor: Really? In all honesty, I cheated my way through undergrad, if I thought it wasn't going to help me to my goals, I just copied other works.
Ive personally heard similar things from ethinic Greek students as well. It sounds like its something almost endemic to the society.
Posted by: Ian at June 16, 2010 11:21 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8682174.stm
Somewhat disturbing on multiple fronts, theres lots more articles out there that point out extreme tax evasion and corruption throughout Greek society.
At the risk of sounding racist, I have dealt with (and heard second hand) many cases where Greeks are almost blatantly open about corruption and cheating.
Personal story... I went to speak with a Greek professor about my homework and the conversation went something like this:
Professor (out of nowhere): So, do you cheat?
Me (Scared and shocked): Uh... no. Ive collaborated with other students on the homework but always made sure to have their names on the submissions as such.
Professor: Really? In all honesty, I cheated my way through undergrad, if I thought it wasn't going to help me to my goals, I just copied other works.
Ive personally heard similar things from ethinic Greek students as well. It sounds like its something almost endemic to the society.
"The EU hasn't had real democracy in some time; look at how they force Ireland to vote over and over on EU referenda until the voters vote the way Brussels wants. "
Oh purleeeze...
They didn't force Ireland to vote on anything. Ireland chose to vote as that was in their constitution. The first vote was defeated largely because the No Campaign said the EU would force Ireland to make abortions legal and other such outright lies designed to create opposition in a Catholic country. The EU went away, took out most of the new parts that the media was most vocal against (the majority of the thing being made up of existing treaties they had already signed up to) and Irish politicians then asked their citizens to vote on this revised treaty, this time after doing more to educate the voters about what they were really voting about rather than the fantasies the opposition claimed.
This time the voters said yes. If at any point a majority of the voters of Ireland want to leave the EU and it's rules they are free to do so.
The only dictatorship in the EU from those who want a decision in their favour and then have that decision set in stone forever with nobody ever again allowed to choose differently.
Posted by: JoshC at June 16, 2010 11:21 am
Oh purleeeze...
They didn't force Ireland to vote on anything. Ireland chose to vote as that was in their constitution. The first vote was defeated largely because the No Campaign said the EU would force Ireland to make abortions legal and other such outright lies designed to create opposition in a Catholic country. The EU went away, took out most of the new parts that the media was most vocal against (the majority of the thing being made up of existing treaties they had already signed up to) and Irish politicians then asked their citizens to vote on this revised treaty, this time after doing more to educate the voters about what they were really voting about rather than the fantasies the opposition claimed.
This time the voters said yes. If at any point a majority of the voters of Ireland want to leave the EU and it's rules they are free to do so.
The only dictatorship in the EU from those who want a decision in their favour and then have that decision set in stone forever with nobody ever again allowed to choose differently.
Speaking of European unity, Turkey continues to astonish (for some). They continue attacks into Iraq (Iranian shelling is daily) and prepare to recall Turkish ambassador to Israel.
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178643
Meanwhile USS Truman diverts to the Med? The irony. USS Truman meets the ship called "The Iranian Company for the Protection of the Palestinian Nation." on her way to Gaza....
I wonder if Europe sees a problem with this:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3906270,00.html
Or should I say those NATO?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 11:22 am
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178643
Meanwhile USS Truman diverts to the Med? The irony. USS Truman meets the ship called "The Iranian Company for the Protection of the Palestinian Nation." on her way to Gaza....
I wonder if Europe sees a problem with this:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3906270,00.html
Or should I say those NATO?
"Some differences between the US and Europe:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/oklahoma-pass-laws-prohibiting-islamic-sharia-laws-apply/story?id=10908521&page=2
The Europeans should have had this deliberation a while back..... "
So is there is big risk of Sharia Law in Oklahoma with its 1% Muslim population?
Posted by: JoshC at June 16, 2010 11:26 am
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/oklahoma-pass-laws-prohibiting-islamic-sharia-laws-apply/story?id=10908521&page=2
The Europeans should have had this deliberation a while back..... "
So is there is big risk of Sharia Law in Oklahoma with its 1% Muslim population?
There sure the hell is in Europe which was my point in comparisons......and of course contracts go beyond State lines....
....I guess you didn't read the first link.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 11:39 am
....I guess you didn't read the first link.....
This time the voters said yes. If at any point a majority of the voters of Ireland want to leave the EU and it's rules they are free to do so.
Right. Just like a majority of voters in any of America's 50 states are free to vote that they want to leave the union and its rules at any time. The right of states to do that was decisively proven in 1861. It's actually quite common for governments to give voters the right to end their relationship with the government at will. I can't think of any government that doesn't have that built into the system.
(I'm sitting here chuckling at your naivety by the way. I guess the US isn't the only country where people don't know shit about how the world really works, right?)
Posted by: Craig at June 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Right. Just like a majority of voters in any of America's 50 states are free to vote that they want to leave the union and its rules at any time. The right of states to do that was decisively proven in 1861. It's actually quite common for governments to give voters the right to end their relationship with the government at will. I can't think of any government that doesn't have that built into the system.
(I'm sitting here chuckling at your naivety by the way. I guess the US isn't the only country where people don't know shit about how the world really works, right?)
JoshC,
So is there is big risk of Sharia Law in Oklahoma with its 1% Muslim population?
Happening in the UK with its 3% Muslim population, so why not?
Then again, we aren't Britain over here...
Posted by: Craig at June 16, 2010 12:09 pm
So is there is big risk of Sharia Law in Oklahoma with its 1% Muslim population?
Happening in the UK with its 3% Muslim population, so why not?
Then again, we aren't Britain over here...
"Oh purleeeze...
They didn't force Ireland to vote on anything. Ireland chose to vote as that was in their constitution. The first vote was defeated largely because the No Campaign said the EU would force Ireland to make abortions legal and other such outright lies designed to create opposition in a Catholic country."
The Catholic Archbishop of Dublin has said the Lisbon Treaty does not alter the legal position of abortion in Ireland.
Speaking at the launch at a pastoral reflection on the Treaty Archbishop Diarmuid Martin condemned those who introduced what he called extraneous factors into the debate.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0529/eulisbon.html
The Irish people voted against the Lisbon Treaty because after an 800 year struggle for independence ffrom England they were smart enough not to hand over their sovereignty to Brussels.
Posted by: kevin at June 16, 2010 1:25 pm
They didn't force Ireland to vote on anything. Ireland chose to vote as that was in their constitution. The first vote was defeated largely because the No Campaign said the EU would force Ireland to make abortions legal and other such outright lies designed to create opposition in a Catholic country."
The Catholic Archbishop of Dublin has said the Lisbon Treaty does not alter the legal position of abortion in Ireland.
Speaking at the launch at a pastoral reflection on the Treaty Archbishop Diarmuid Martin condemned those who introduced what he called extraneous factors into the debate.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0529/eulisbon.html
The Irish people voted against the Lisbon Treaty because after an 800 year struggle for independence ffrom England they were smart enough not to hand over their sovereignty to Brussels.
Off-topic Michael, but your friend Lee Smith has an interesting piece up at http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/36244/extreme-makeover/.
Posted by: Gene at June 16, 2010 1:33 pm
Okay, but when has that led to dictatorship in Europe? Spain is not Venezuela.
You are kidding, right Michael? What do Spain, Portugal and Greece have in common? They were all ruled by dictators as recently as the late 1970s. Democracy doesn't have deep roots in any of those countries. You could add Italy to the list, but some people think Berlusconi is already a dictator in everything but name.
Liberal Democracy works in the US and the UK because we citizens, for the most part, think our votes matter and that our politicians listen. Ask any average citizen in Spain or Greece if he/she thinks their government is responsive. In Europe elites do whatever they want, at least that is what most people believe. So, democracy or dictatorship - it won't matter in everyday life. Very cynical attitude - but cynicism is what rots democracy away.
Posted by: Ivan N at June 16, 2010 2:49 pm
You are kidding, right Michael? What do Spain, Portugal and Greece have in common? They were all ruled by dictators as recently as the late 1970s. Democracy doesn't have deep roots in any of those countries. You could add Italy to the list, but some people think Berlusconi is already a dictator in everything but name.
Liberal Democracy works in the US and the UK because we citizens, for the most part, think our votes matter and that our politicians listen. Ask any average citizen in Spain or Greece if he/she thinks their government is responsive. In Europe elites do whatever they want, at least that is what most people believe. So, democracy or dictatorship - it won't matter in everyday life. Very cynical attitude - but cynicism is what rots democracy away.
No, fortunately Spain is not Venezuela...
http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/539/more-evidence-of-hezbollah-in-latin-america.com
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 3:00 pm
http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/539/more-evidence-of-hezbollah-in-latin-america.com
Hizb'Allah in Paraguay....
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g2Qu6mj7X6l7uE9Y3B9xSmcC14hw
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 3:01 pm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g2Qu6mj7X6l7uE9Y3B9xSmcC14hw
The nexus of terror and drugs from North Africa to South America with Southern Europe assisting...
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39555
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 3:02 pm
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39555
No, the US is not Europe and the predictable Congressional move is under way. Obama is in the corner on this.....
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/16/us.turkey.armenia/
Gees, Ivan, what they have in common now is an irrational inability to see cause and effect. Are you really suggesting their past experience with dictatorship can explain their present behavior, expectations and reasoning abilities?
Or perhaps their cries for Authoritarian Socialism is really an unconscious desire to return to the simplicity of dictatorship?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 3:09 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/16/us.turkey.armenia/
Gees, Ivan, what they have in common now is an irrational inability to see cause and effect. Are you really suggesting their past experience with dictatorship can explain their present behavior, expectations and reasoning abilities?
Or perhaps their cries for Authoritarian Socialism is really an unconscious desire to return to the simplicity of dictatorship?
Ivan: You are kidding, right Michael?
Hell no, I'm not kidding.
If Venezuela were in Europe instead of South America, it wouldn't even come close to meeting the standards for EU acceptance.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 16, 2010 3:09 pm
Hell no, I'm not kidding.
If Venezuela were in Europe instead of South America, it wouldn't even come close to meeting the standards for EU acceptance.
http://www.examiner.com/x-4814-LA-Middle-Eastern-Policy-Examiner~y2010m6d15-Turkey-excavating-1918-mass-grave-of-Turks-killed-by-Armenians
What Turkey seems to be preparing in their counter to the coming recognition of Turkish genocide. In this regard, they won't find much support in Europe for that deflection.
I rather doubt Venezuela would be admitted into the EU. And perhaps Ivan didn't know that the dictators in Latin America are among the leaders in promoting the Iranian narrative. Castro just said Israel's flag is really a swastika.
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 3:17 pm
What Turkey seems to be preparing in their counter to the coming recognition of Turkish genocide. In this regard, they won't find much support in Europe for that deflection.
I rather doubt Venezuela would be admitted into the EU. And perhaps Ivan didn't know that the dictators in Latin America are among the leaders in promoting the Iranian narrative. Castro just said Israel's flag is really a swastika.
Makers with decreasing incentive to make, and takers with increasing incentives to take and not become makers can only lead down one road; no advanced degree in economics is required to sort it out.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 3:26 pm
But creating more taxpayer dependents to take a census is the "new" jobs creation model. The bottom's the limit.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 3:39 pm
Dependent on the taxpayers, that is.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 3:43 pm
What Turkey seems to be preparing in their counter to the coming recognition of Turkish genocide. In this regard, they won't find much support in Europe for that deflection.
They certainly won't. Not in Europe, or anywhere else I suspect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
It's hard to argue with the numbers, or with the many photos of the atrocities taken by foreigners and expats at the time the genocide was taking place. It's an open and shut case, and the Turks can't make it go away just by pretending they didn't do what everyone knows they did.
Posted by: Craig at June 16, 2010 4:21 pm
They certainly won't. Not in Europe, or anywhere else I suspect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
It's hard to argue with the numbers, or with the many photos of the atrocities taken by foreigners and expats at the time the genocide was taking place. It's an open and shut case, and the Turks can't make it go away just by pretending they didn't do what everyone knows they did.
It is amazing they will try to make a case Craig. As for Spain: http://thelastcrusade.org/2010/06/16/spainish-city-reacts-to-muslim-invasion-bans-burqa/
You will note a WH advisor who supports the Turkish direction.....in the site side bar.
I wonder if Michael has a comment on this: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2010/06/michael-yon-the-end-game.html
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 4:34 pm
You will note a WH advisor who supports the Turkish direction.....in the site side bar.
I wonder if Michael has a comment on this: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2010/06/michael-yon-the-end-game.html
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20100615_Some_truths_trump_even_crucial_alliances.html#axzz0r4MUwbUa
A teacher Paul S. from NYU....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 6:26 pm
A teacher Paul S. from NYU....
"If Venezuela were in Europe instead of South America, it wouldn't even come close to meeting the standards for EU acceptance.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 16, 2010 3:09 pm"
True. Venezuela is one of the worst managed countries on earth. Non oil GDP has collapsed. Oil production has dropped significantly. The RoI of energy extraction CAPEX is extremely low.
This while Brazil and Chile are envied around the world. While they more than meet EU membership criteria, they don't want to join because a plurality of their trade is with Asia.
It is interesting that Turkey meets the criteria for EU membership better than Greece. EU would have been a lot better off letting in Turkey instead of Greece. Turks are much more responsible, pro business, grow much faster, and are much more pro American.
Greece might be the most anti American country in the world that isn't Pakistani or Arab. Greece had mass celebrations on 9/11, whereas the Turks were sympathetic.
Now the Greeks want to be bailed out of their irresponsibility? The Chutzpa.
Turks rock! Greeks, not so much.
Posted by: anan at June 16, 2010 6:29 pm
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 16, 2010 3:09 pm"
True. Venezuela is one of the worst managed countries on earth. Non oil GDP has collapsed. Oil production has dropped significantly. The RoI of energy extraction CAPEX is extremely low.
This while Brazil and Chile are envied around the world. While they more than meet EU membership criteria, they don't want to join because a plurality of their trade is with Asia.
It is interesting that Turkey meets the criteria for EU membership better than Greece. EU would have been a lot better off letting in Turkey instead of Greece. Turks are much more responsible, pro business, grow much faster, and are much more pro American.
Greece might be the most anti American country in the world that isn't Pakistani or Arab. Greece had mass celebrations on 9/11, whereas the Turks were sympathetic.
Now the Greeks want to be bailed out of their irresponsibility? The Chutzpa.
Turks rock! Greeks, not so much.
Chutzpa Anan? That would not be how I would describe your behavior.
Nor is that how I would describe your using the term here....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 6:47 pm
Nor is that how I would describe your using the term here....
Don Cox: I don't see how the EU countries can expect to sustain themselves with a shrinking population, which is a consequence of their low fertility rates. Every single EU country currently has a total fertility rate of less than 2.0 children per woman, which would be the replacement rate. Even when you take into account migration, there are still 11 countries in the EU whose population is shrinking rather than growing, including Poland, Germany, and Italy.
Besides, saying that "they don't have enough jobs for the population they have now" isn't an argument against them having more children. It's an argument against bringing in more working-age immigrants. More children means more demand for things like food, clothing, and education, and that helps create jobs.
Posted by: Joshua at June 16, 2010 6:52 pm
Besides, saying that "they don't have enough jobs for the population they have now" isn't an argument against them having more children. It's an argument against bringing in more working-age immigrants. More children means more demand for things like food, clothing, and education, and that helps create jobs.
Congressional approval went up a half point: http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178687
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 16, 2010 7:42 pm
"Turks rock! Greeks, not so much."
Both are pathological, each in their own way.
Posted by: gus3 at June 16, 2010 7:50 pm
Both are pathological, each in their own way.
"Who, after all," Hitler asked, "speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
Thanks, Max. Much blame, and shame.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Thanks, Max. Much blame, and shame.
"they don't have enough jobs for the population they have now"
Economic resource draining government expansion, not population policies, is the key; a morbidly obese public structure, inherently incapable of generating self-sustaining profits, starves potential private sector profit makers and the consumer support they depend on.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 8:20 pm
Economic resource draining government expansion, not population policies, is the key; a morbidly obese public structure, inherently incapable of generating self-sustaining profits, starves potential private sector profit makers and the consumer support they depend on.
Not that I want to gloss things over, but I'd consider the sources. The Daily Mail is known for gut-level Europhobia, and for publishing what Oliver Kamm calls 'Great Historical Questions To Which the Answer is No.' Some of the sources the commenters cite don't impress me that much either.
Posted by: greeneyeshade at June 16, 2010 8:27 pm
A US example related to my point above: Texas, America's second most populous state, approaching 25 million, has unemployment significantly south of Michigan's rate with its 10 million+ population. And Texas is free of Michigan's draining debt burden---with no state income tax.
Posted by: Paul S. at June 16, 2010 8:46 pm
"Turks rock!"
anand didn't have a word for Turkey until they visibly supported the annihilationist savages of Hamas. Once again proving he is a malevolent, genocidal Jew-baiter.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 16, 2010 9:26 pm
anand didn't have a word for Turkey until they visibly supported the annihilationist savages of Hamas. Once again proving he is a malevolent, genocidal Jew-baiter.
""Who, after all," Hitler asked, "speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" "
Not the rockin' Turks!
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 17, 2010 12:06 am
Not the rockin' Turks!
anan, these links are for you:
Turkey Hearts Hamas
Turkey's prime minister says Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization.
by Thomas Joscelyn
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/turkey-hearts-hamas
Erdogan, Qaradawi, Ramadan, Hamas, and Obama
Who will stand with Israel?
by Stephen Schwartz
http://www.theweeklystandard.com/blogs/erdogan-qaradawi-ramadan-hamas-obama
A Brave New Turkey
Victor Davis Hanson
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTU4ZWEzMjE4NDQ0ZjEyOGM1MjYyZDQxZmNiYTM2ODM=
Turkey's Radical Drift
The Islamic charity behind the Gaza flotilla and its links to terror.
Editorial
The Wall Street Journal
http://mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9855
Turkey's Clash of Civilizations
Under the Islamist Erdogan government, the country can no longer be considered a Western ally.
By Soner Cagaptay
Wall Street Journal
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=1474
Posted by: Salamantis at June 17, 2010 12:08 am
Turkey Hearts Hamas
Turkey's prime minister says Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization.
by Thomas Joscelyn
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/turkey-hearts-hamas
Erdogan, Qaradawi, Ramadan, Hamas, and Obama
Who will stand with Israel?
by Stephen Schwartz
http://www.theweeklystandard.com/blogs/erdogan-qaradawi-ramadan-hamas-obama
A Brave New Turkey
Victor Davis Hanson
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTU4ZWEzMjE4NDQ0ZjEyOGM1MjYyZDQxZmNiYTM2ODM=
Turkey's Radical Drift
The Islamic charity behind the Gaza flotilla and its links to terror.
Editorial
The Wall Street Journal
http://mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9855
Turkey's Clash of Civilizations
Under the Islamist Erdogan government, the country can no longer be considered a Western ally.
By Soner Cagaptay
Wall Street Journal
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=1474
See also www.FreeEurope.info for more...
Posted by: William Humbold Jr at June 17, 2010 12:18 am
If Venezuela were in Europe instead of South America, it wouldn't even come close to meeting the standards for EU acceptance.
What does that have to with anything? I guess I didn't read your comment carefully, I thought you meant you must be kidding to think that economic hardship cannot lead to dictatorship. Spain and Greece don't have to be Venezuela to be susceptible to dictatorship. Argentina wasn't Venezuela. Serbia was not Venezuela in the early 1990s. I would be surprised to see a real dictatorship in Spain or Portugal, but liberal democracy does not have very strong roots in Greece. Greece is a Balkan country. If your point was that Governments putting in place socialist welfare states does not necessarily lead to dictatorship, that's probably true. The issue in Greece and Spain goes beyond "socialism" though - the whole citizen-state relationship is broken, these countries are not Sweden.
Posted by: Ivan N at June 17, 2010 6:11 am
What does that have to with anything? I guess I didn't read your comment carefully, I thought you meant you must be kidding to think that economic hardship cannot lead to dictatorship. Spain and Greece don't have to be Venezuela to be susceptible to dictatorship. Argentina wasn't Venezuela. Serbia was not Venezuela in the early 1990s. I would be surprised to see a real dictatorship in Spain or Portugal, but liberal democracy does not have very strong roots in Greece. Greece is a Balkan country. If your point was that Governments putting in place socialist welfare states does not necessarily lead to dictatorship, that's probably true. The issue in Greece and Spain goes beyond "socialism" though - the whole citizen-state relationship is broken, these countries are not Sweden.
Salamantis: anan, these links are for you:
Turkey Hearts Hamas
Turkey's prime minister says Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization.
by Thomas Joscelyn
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/turkey-hearts-hamas
That article will only confirm to him that he and Erdogan share them same view of Hamas, because they are both Jew-baiting scumbags.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 17, 2010 3:30 pm
Turkey Hearts Hamas
Turkey's prime minister says Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization.
by Thomas Joscelyn
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/turkey-hearts-hamas
That article will only confirm to him that he and Erdogan share them same view of Hamas, because they are both Jew-baiting scumbags.
Then this link oughtta really cheer him, Li'l Mamzer:
Mas-Kom-Ya, Erdogan, and Turkey’s Islamic Jew Hatred
Prime minister Erdogan's posture toward Israel and Jews represents the apotheosis of Islamic Jew hatred manifest in Turkey for a half-millennium.
by Andrew Bostrum
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mas-kom-ya-erdogan-and-turkeys-islamic-jew-hatred/?singlepage=true
Posted by: Salamantis at June 17, 2010 6:27 pm
Mas-Kom-Ya, Erdogan, and Turkey’s Islamic Jew Hatred
Prime minister Erdogan's posture toward Israel and Jews represents the apotheosis of Islamic Jew hatred manifest in Turkey for a half-millennium.
by Andrew Bostrum
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mas-kom-ya-erdogan-and-turkeys-islamic-jew-hatred/?singlepage=true
Then this link oughtta really cheer him, Li'l Mamzer:
Mas-Kom-Ya, Erdogan, and Turkey’s Islamic Jew Hatred
Prime minister Erdogan's posture toward Israel and Jews represents the apotheosis of Islamic Jew hatred manifest in Turkey for a half-millennium.
by Andrew Bostrum
More than cheer him - send him into orgasmic territory. Ewww, forget I said that.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at June 17, 2010 6:47 pm
Mas-Kom-Ya, Erdogan, and Turkey’s Islamic Jew Hatred
Prime minister Erdogan's posture toward Israel and Jews represents the apotheosis of Islamic Jew hatred manifest in Turkey for a half-millennium.
by Andrew Bostrum
More than cheer him - send him into orgasmic territory. Ewww, forget I said that.
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