June 7, 2010
An Aid Flotilla to Turkey?
Israeli activists are planning to send a humanitarian aid flotilla to Turkey with goods for the Kurdish and Armenian minorities.
I drove through Turkish Kurdistan years ago with my friend and traveling companion Sean LaFreniere and was absolutely appalled. When we crossed the border into Iraq, respect for human rights and the standard of living increased dramatically.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2010 7:24 PM
Comments
The Kurdistan travelogue actually starts at
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001119.html
As Glenn Reynolds would say, read the whole thing. I suggest having a pot of coffee handy; it's at least a two-hour read.
Posted by: gus3 at June 7, 2010 7:34 pm
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001119.html
As Glenn Reynolds would say, read the whole thing. I suggest having a pot of coffee handy; it's at least a two-hour read.
Totten doing what Totten does. It's great work and reminds me why I 'waste' time here :)
Posted by: semite5000 at June 7, 2010 7:47 pm
This is one of the best things I've heard all week...
Posted by: C.H. at June 7, 2010 7:52 pm
Yep, as this becomes a friggin mess, Michael sheds some light on areas & people we are talking about. It is part of the deep differences between let's say Coles and Totten. Time to read......
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6570DA20100608 Afghanistan worries
well perhaps the President has the wrong Gulf
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/07/gulf.oil.obama/
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 7, 2010 8:00 pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6570DA20100608 Afghanistan worries
well perhaps the President has the wrong Gulf
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/07/gulf.oil.obama/
Maxtrue, the ANSF can defeat the Taliban with sufficient international long term funding and training.
Posted by: anan at June 7, 2010 8:09 pm
At this rate, in one of your wet dreams......
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 7, 2010 8:18 pm
with sufficient international long term funding
America is currently spending three times Afghanistan's GDP each year on its battle with the Taliban.
Posted by: perto at June 7, 2010 8:33 pm
America is currently spending three times Afghanistan's GDP each year on its battle with the Taliban.
Year ago, you wrote about the time you and your wife visited Istanbul and you wrote a glowing tribute about that old city. Do you have any insights as to life in Istanbul today and life in general in Turkey?
I served there 50-years ago, based in Çorlu and visited Istanbul often. It seemed then to be a strange mix of western culture with lots of old Islamic aspects, even more so out in the Thracian sticks of Çorlu! Until recently, the thought of revisiting those places seemed fascinating, today I wonder!
Posted by: Doug Wright at June 7, 2010 8:44 pm
I served there 50-years ago, based in Çorlu and visited Istanbul often. It seemed then to be a strange mix of western culture with lots of old Islamic aspects, even more so out in the Thracian sticks of Çorlu! Until recently, the thought of revisiting those places seemed fascinating, today I wonder!
Doug: Do you have any insights as to life in Istanbul today and life in general in Turkey?
Istanbul is one of the greatest cities to visit in the entire world. I say that, though, as a tourist. I have never done any reporting there and don't have anything particularly insightful to say about it. I haven't been paying a lot of attention to Turkey lately, but I am going to start.
I'm not at all happy with what Ergogan has been up to.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2010 8:52 pm
Istanbul is one of the greatest cities to visit in the entire world. I say that, though, as a tourist. I have never done any reporting there and don't have anything particularly insightful to say about it. I haven't been paying a lot of attention to Turkey lately, but I am going to start.
I'm not at all happy with what Ergogan has been up to.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/22247/america_is_still_the_best_guarantor_of_freedom_and_prosperity.html
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 7, 2010 9:21 pm
Sayyed Totten,
Great post! Why not? There is nothing more brutal and oppressed than the Armenians (and Kurds) in nationalist Turkey.
The Armenians I talked to in Turkey are deeper in the closet than a gay in Uganda:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/16/AR2010021605124.html
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at June 7, 2010 9:55 pm
Great post! Why not? There is nothing more brutal and oppressed than the Armenians (and Kurds) in nationalist Turkey.
The Armenians I talked to in Turkey are deeper in the closet than a gay in Uganda:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/16/AR2010021605124.html
All of this is true, but isn't it a bit opportunistic?
Moreover, are you sure we want to burn that bridge entirely? There are bunch of Turks who are not impressed by Erdogan's agenda at home, if vis a vis Israel.
Posted by: RC at June 7, 2010 10:34 pm
Moreover, are you sure we want to burn that bridge entirely? There are bunch of Turks who are not impressed by Erdogan's agenda at home, if vis a vis Israel.
I can just see it now: Our grandchildren will be reading about the Great Flotilla War of 2010
Posted by: John W. at June 7, 2010 10:42 pm
"There is nothing more brutal and oppressed than the Armenians (and Kurds) in nationalist Turkey."
Have you figured out how to blame it on da Joooos yet, you hypocrite?
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 7, 2010 11:14 pm
Have you figured out how to blame it on da Joooos yet, you hypocrite?
The bridge-burning is all being done by Erdogan and the AKP.
Posted by: Salamantis at June 7, 2010 11:30 pm
Gary, chill out on Abu Guerrilla.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2010 11:34 pm
My only question -- where do I contribute to the Israeli flotilla? I was talking with a couple Israeli friends earlier today and we joked that Israel needed to start pushing Kurdish and Armenian rights on every public front, all the time. Then I see this!
Posted by: AZZenny at June 7, 2010 11:38 pm
perto,
How familiar are you regarding Afghanistan? If you want to familiarize yourself, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYf-xkOjTFg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-SNtUjip4&feature=channel
Amrullah Saleh, who just retired as head of Afghan intelligence [NDS], speaks some unpalatable truth.
Remember, that America may or may not abandon the Afghans. The 51 national global ISAF [several more countries in addition to 51 are contributing troops or police even though they are not formally part of ISAF] may or may not abandon the Afghans. However, the Afghans will never surrender to the AQ and Taliban linked networks. The Afghans will fight to the end. And the Afghans will win.
Posted by: anan at June 7, 2010 11:46 pm
How familiar are you regarding Afghanistan? If you want to familiarize yourself, watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYf-xkOjTFg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-SNtUjip4&feature=channel
Amrullah Saleh, who just retired as head of Afghan intelligence [NDS], speaks some unpalatable truth.
Remember, that America may or may not abandon the Afghans. The 51 national global ISAF [several more countries in addition to 51 are contributing troops or police even though they are not formally part of ISAF] may or may not abandon the Afghans. However, the Afghans will never surrender to the AQ and Taliban linked networks. The Afghans will fight to the end. And the Afghans will win.
Gary Rosen,
You carless dingbat, I'm half Turkish-Armenian, half German Jewish. And it's call humor... As Sayyed Dr. Totten said, "take it easy."
But yeah... it would be fitting if the Israeli activists who sail to Turkey have a big banner: "1915."
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at June 8, 2010 12:34 am
You carless dingbat, I'm half Turkish-Armenian, half German Jewish. And it's call humor... As Sayyed Dr. Totten said, "take it easy."
But yeah... it would be fitting if the Israeli activists who sail to Turkey have a big banner: "1915."
"You carless dingbat, I'm half Turkish-Armenian, half German Jewish"
Yeah, sure, all the Jew-baiters here claim to be Holocaust survivors, like the peaceful activists on the Marmara. Kumbayahhhhh.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at June 8, 2010 1:11 am
Yeah, sure, all the Jew-baiters here claim to be Holocaust survivors, like the peaceful activists on the Marmara. Kumbayahhhhh.
This could make Israel look very cynical... And who knows? It could worsen things for the Kurds in Turkey or Armenia, or just help the PM in the election.
Posted by: Justquoting at June 8, 2010 1:22 am
Justquoting: This could make Israel look very cynical
No more cynical than the activists who scream about Israel but don't care that Hamas won't deliver the goods.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2010 1:43 am
No more cynical than the activists who scream about Israel but don't care that Hamas won't deliver the goods.
Hey let's not forget the Cypriots. They need an anti-Turkey freedom flotilla too.
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 2:33 am
Hariri heading back to Turkey soon. Obviously the Sunnis will run to Turkey to counteract Iran and the Hezbollah. The most precarious in the equation is the Assad regime which is toast if Turkey reasserts it's presence in the Levant. But who will miss these murderous bastards?
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 2:42 am
Joe: But who will miss these murderous bastards (the Assad regime)?
The Obama State Department and various and sundry carpetbagging Democratic congressional envoys?
Posted by: Salamantis at June 8, 2010 4:05 am
The Obama State Department and various and sundry carpetbagging Democratic congressional envoys?
Building the Sunni axis: Hariri in Egypt today and in Turkey this Thursday.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&77F722925BE7F8D0C225773C00198168
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 4:34 am
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&77F722925BE7F8D0C225773C00198168
Ahmadinejad defiant ahead of UN nuclear sanctions vote
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has warned Iran will not agree to talks on its nuclear programme if a fourth round of UN sanctions are imposed this week.
OMFG, the IRI won't negotiate with us anymore if we sanction them for not negotiating with us before!? The horror!
He also said a nuclear fuel-swap deal brokered by Turkey and Brazil was an offer that would not be repeated.
Heh. I bet he comes up with an even more insulting offer, like brokering a fuel-swap deal via Somalia. Just for fun because he plays that way. It'll be something like this: Iran will send half their enriched uranium to Somalia but since nobody can verify actually they won't. And, in return they get to buy as much enriched uranium as they want from China and Russia, and they get to keep enriching their own uranium, and they get the enriched uranium from France or whoever that is to be swapped for the uranium they didn't send to Somalia.
It's a good deal, right?
Posted by: Craig at June 8, 2010 5:16 am
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has warned Iran will not agree to talks on its nuclear programme if a fourth round of UN sanctions are imposed this week.
OMFG, the IRI won't negotiate with us anymore if we sanction them for not negotiating with us before!? The horror!
He also said a nuclear fuel-swap deal brokered by Turkey and Brazil was an offer that would not be repeated.
Heh. I bet he comes up with an even more insulting offer, like brokering a fuel-swap deal via Somalia. Just for fun because he plays that way. It'll be something like this: Iran will send half their enriched uranium to Somalia but since nobody can verify actually they won't. And, in return they get to buy as much enriched uranium as they want from China and Russia, and they get to keep enriching their own uranium, and they get the enriched uranium from France or whoever that is to be swapped for the uranium they didn't send to Somalia.
It's a good deal, right?
Building the Sunni axis (continued): Hariri also in Jordan and Saudi this week.
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 5:19 am
Iran nuclear scientist Amiri in US 'kidnap' dispute
Iranian television broadcast a video purporting to show the scientist saying he was kidnapped and is now living in Arizona.
It comes a day after another video, posted on YouTube, appeared to show Mr Amiri saying he was happy in the US.
Hmmm....
Posted by: Craig at June 8, 2010 5:22 am
Iranian television broadcast a video purporting to show the scientist saying he was kidnapped and is now living in Arizona.
It comes a day after another video, posted on YouTube, appeared to show Mr Amiri saying he was happy in the US.
Hmmm....
Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, all by Thursday evening. Last week, he was in Washington.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&77F722925BE7F8D0C225773C00198168
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 5:23 am
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&77F722925BE7F8D0C225773C00198168
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129515§ionid=351020101 Iran claims 20 were killed in the Flotilla boarding among other BS things.
http://www.politico.com/arena/ Well, it might be the wrong Gulf pundits are looking to when comparing the two Presidents...and US policy could be affected by today's voting.
PDF of draft Iranian sanction resolution: http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/unsc_blue_iran_resolution.pdfhttp://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/unsc_blue_iran_resolution.pdf pretty tame stuff
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 5:23 am
http://www.politico.com/arena/ Well, it might be the wrong Gulf pundits are looking to when comparing the two Presidents...and US policy could be affected by today's voting.
PDF of draft Iranian sanction resolution: http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/unsc_blue_iran_resolution.pdfhttp://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/unsc_blue_iran_resolution.pdf pretty tame stuff
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/world/09iran.html
One reason why sanctions are window dressing...
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 5:54 am
One reason why sanctions are window dressing...
Hey Joe, what are you talking about? Hariri travels everywhere and in most cases it is more about business deals and improving relations than anything else unless of course he is in Damascus to report back to the boss:-)
Posted by: Mason at June 8, 2010 6:35 am
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7145681.ece
US Marine gone rogue. The story doesn't gel with the videos.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 7:04 am
US Marine gone rogue. The story doesn't gel with the videos.....
"Asked whether the raid on the flotilla last week will change the way countries vote in the Security Council, Ahmadinejad said the raid will actually change many things.
For Israel, he said, "it has actually rung the final countdown for its existence. It shows that it has no room in the region and no one is ready to live alongside it. Actually, no country in the world recognizes it, and you know that the Zionist regime is the backbone of the dictatorial world order."
He added, "Maybe at the Security Council, it will impact temporarily. The Zionist regime, with what it has done, it actually stopped its possibility to exist in the region anymore." CNN
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 7:10 am
For Israel, he said, "it has actually rung the final countdown for its existence. It shows that it has no room in the region and no one is ready to live alongside it. Actually, no country in the world recognizes it, and you know that the Zionist regime is the backbone of the dictatorial world order."
He added, "Maybe at the Security Council, it will impact temporarily. The Zionist regime, with what it has done, it actually stopped its possibility to exist in the region anymore." CNN
Mason
Maybe 'the boss' said to him, as his dad had said years ago to Walid Jumblat: "You remind me of your father." LOL, if you can laugh at that sort of thing.
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 7:18 am
Maybe 'the boss' said to him, as his dad had said years ago to Walid Jumblat: "You remind me of your father." LOL, if you can laugh at that sort of thing.
Yeah Joe, both of them are now back in line and deep inside they probably hear that everytime that they meet with him. It has got be painful, but there is always a price to pay when you can't stand up on your own and fight for your rights and instead rely on others to do your job for you!
Posted by: Mason at June 8, 2010 7:33 am
Realpolitik versus morality and truth. The Israelis chose the former in their alliance with Turkey at the expense of the Armenian genocide and oppression of Kurds and occupation of Cyprus. Now they're reaping the benefits.
That said, how could Israel not have allied itself with Turkey, since Turkey was the first Muslim state to recognize Israel among many other very important reasons.
Just some things to mull over.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 8, 2010 8:22 am
That said, how could Israel not have allied itself with Turkey, since Turkey was the first Muslim state to recognize Israel among many other very important reasons.
Just some things to mull over.
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/imperium/2010/06/08/new-middle-east-triangle
Well at least they used the right term "axis". This is just what Obama should read this morning. What was not very convincing however, was Obama's "kick ass" statement. Such declarations delivered with such tepidness, are likely to engender laughter, not fear. For gravitas, the WH must change the wardrobe.....
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/what-is-assad-hiding-in-his-backyard-1.292935
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 9:11 am
Well at least they used the right term "axis". This is just what Obama should read this morning. What was not very convincing however, was Obama's "kick ass" statement. Such declarations delivered with such tepidness, are likely to engender laughter, not fear. For gravitas, the WH must change the wardrobe.....
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/what-is-assad-hiding-in-his-backyard-1.292935
Maxtrue, you impress me. Everyday, all day, you go on an unparalleled article-reading Jihad. :p Seriously though, thanks for your sleuthing.
Posted by: semite5000 at June 8, 2010 9:50 am
To the commentators above: Funny how you all remember the rights of others when it suits your whimsical view of the world best. It's despicable how suffering of the people is used as it were a chip on the table or a card at hand. Perhaps one day you will learn to mourn the tragidies of all the people, without a political context - not just when it's convenient.
Posted by: Fzl at June 8, 2010 10:20 am
Michael,
This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
Two wrongs do not make a right. One man's political theater shouldn't be answered by someone else's.
Really dumb stunt.
Posted by: jay at June 8, 2010 10:50 am
This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
Two wrongs do not make a right. One man's political theater shouldn't be answered by someone else's.
Really dumb stunt.
Fzl
No one has a monopoly on suffering or compassion. There are many people suffering in the Middle East, usually because of their own actions and thoughts, or because they live under the boot of repressive regimes. Most people on this site are against these actions, thoughts and regimes. And you say...?
Posted by: Joe at June 8, 2010 11:18 am
No one has a monopoly on suffering or compassion. There are many people suffering in the Middle East, usually because of their own actions and thoughts, or because they live under the boot of repressive regimes. Most people on this site are against these actions, thoughts and regimes. And you say...?
Erdogan says "this time" Israel failed to name their victims "terrorists". He sees momentum on his side and refuses to end his harsh words despite little to show. Syria chimes in with another mixture of the Clash of Civilizations and Big Brother.....
Banning Syrian flights is like the Gaza siege
If it isn't the narrative that is being fought over now, why redefine words? 9/11 rather destroyed their narrative. If it is first the narrative before the sword, then why are we supporting the soft version of their story rather than promoting our own? That is the idea behind the reverse flotilla; to turn the light on the real symbols of repression, victimization, ignorance and radicalism. How will Obama know whose ass to kick?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 11:31 am
Banning Syrian flights is like the Gaza siege
If it isn't the narrative that is being fought over now, why redefine words? 9/11 rather destroyed their narrative. If it is first the narrative before the sword, then why are we supporting the soft version of their story rather than promoting our own? That is the idea behind the reverse flotilla; to turn the light on the real symbols of repression, victimization, ignorance and radicalism. How will Obama know whose ass to kick?
S-5000,
I've been renovating a few apts in my building which has given me for several weeks the opportunity to go sleuthing during the day between breaks. Won't last forever...I think now is about the time we really should get serious because the storm down the road will be unforgiving. Next year is going to be wrenching...
Since I'm not credentialed, its the strange connections between stories and obscure data that reveal the shadow of what's going on. For instance, how has that leak of more than 250,000 classified State Department emails to Wikileak revealed what to who? In what sense are we improving our reputation and performance v sinking downward?
Posted by: Maxtrue at June 8, 2010 11:55 am
I've been renovating a few apts in my building which has given me for several weeks the opportunity to go sleuthing during the day between breaks. Won't last forever...I think now is about the time we really should get serious because the storm down the road will be unforgiving. Next year is going to be wrenching...
Since I'm not credentialed, its the strange connections between stories and obscure data that reveal the shadow of what's going on. For instance, how has that leak of more than 250,000 classified State Department emails to Wikileak revealed what to who? In what sense are we improving our reputation and performance v sinking downward?
Faisal,
"It's despicable how suffering of the people is used as it were a chip on the table or a card at hand."
You mean like Hamas does or Assad or Ahmadinijad?
Right on!
Funny how tyrants in the world have no compassion for their own suffering populations and let them starve instead of improving their lot.
I guess admitting your own responsibility comes first and then stop stealing the money and goods destined for the general population.
In the next few years if the WB continues the way its going, it will put the lie to your thesis. And you can be sure there won't be any overwhelming urge to unite with the losers in Gaza under Hamas
Posted by: jb at June 8, 2010 1:10 pm
"It's despicable how suffering of the people is used as it were a chip on the table or a card at hand."
You mean like Hamas does or Assad or Ahmadinijad?
Right on!
Funny how tyrants in the world have no compassion for their own suffering populations and let them starve instead of improving their lot.
I guess admitting your own responsibility comes first and then stop stealing the money and goods destined for the general population.
In the next few years if the WB continues the way its going, it will put the lie to your thesis. And you can be sure there won't be any overwhelming urge to unite with the losers in Gaza under Hamas
Does anyone else think this stunt could end badly?
Posted by: FormerStudent at June 8, 2010 3:01 pm
[...] approaching its post-war nadir, and pronounced it an unmitigated disaster even by Iraqi standards. Actual quote: “When we crossed the border into Iraq, respect for human rights and the standard of living [...]
Posted by: Hot Air » Awesome: Israeli students trying to organize flotilla to Turkey at June 8, 2010 3:23 pm
I read about the Armenian genocide after the big uproar by the Turks when the U.S. was considering a House resolution to call them out on it. Then I read about the Assyrian Christian genocide. And the Pontic Greek genocide. Perhaps it is the Turks who need to be pushed into the sea and added to the list of people who exhausted their right to inhabit the earth by way of iniquity. Thank God the military there is controlled by secular powers, at least as far as we know.
Posted by: Dave at June 9, 2010 5:54 am
I think it's enough for young Israelis to serve in the military.
I see no reason for them endangering themselves in a (parody) humanitarian flotilla to Turkey. I am amused by the idea and loved the Flotilla Choir, but it is very possible they would be met by the human equivalent of wild dogs rather than an official, civilized government agency.
Posted by: Alicia at June 9, 2010 11:41 am
I see no reason for them endangering themselves in a (parody) humanitarian flotilla to Turkey. I am amused by the idea and loved the Flotilla Choir, but it is very possible they would be met by the human equivalent of wild dogs rather than an official, civilized government agency.
"Does anyone else think this stunt could end badly?"
Me me me. The Turks could just let the flotilla land. Then what?
It's just stupid, that's all. The Israelis stood up for the rule of law and got (predictably) slammed. Sending a reverse flotilla would ironically legitimate what the Turks did.
It's really a bad idea.
Posted by: jay at June 9, 2010 12:17 pm
Me me me. The Turks could just let the flotilla land. Then what?
It's just stupid, that's all. The Israelis stood up for the rule of law and got (predictably) slammed. Sending a reverse flotilla would ironically legitimate what the Turks did.
It's really a bad idea.
FWIW, IMHO, Alicia has it right.
Posted by: del at June 9, 2010 7:40 pm
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