May 10, 2010
The Dark Side of Engagement with Governments
I have always appreciated George Packer's work, even when I do not agree with him. His latest piece in the New Yorker is worth a look, and I can't help but wonder how many of the Obama Administration's foreign policy hands will cringe a little bit when they read the opening:
Last June, in Cairo, President Barack Obama, at the heart of his speech to the Islamic world, enumerated the many issues that have created tension between the United States and Muslim nations. “The fourth issue that I will address is democracy,” he said, and continued, “I know there has been controversy about the promotion of democracy in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the war in Iraq. So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other.” Then the President paused, apparently expecting this sensible recognition to prompt a round of applause, but there was silence, and he seemed to stumble. His timing was off; the people in his mostly Egyptian audience had already done their clapping when he uttered the word “democracy.” Tom Malinowski, of Human Rights Watch, who had been an informal adviser to the Obama campaign, said, “I don’t think he was aware that the audience both despised George W. Bush and desperately wanted Bush’s help in their cause.”
Posted by Michael J. Totten at May 10, 2010 10:47 AM
Comments
My understanding was that the Muslim Brotherhood was given a seat in the audience at the request from the administration. It shouldn't be a secret that many of those championing Democracy in Egypt want to use it as a tool to gain the power to replace Democracy with more of what Iran's peddling. There is a reason why Mubarack has resisted much reform.
There is no mention by the writer of the consequence of ignored gestures, except for the warning to have plan B.
I find it ironic that Power and Rice have been muted, as Packer spells out the game plan. Some take Obama's statement about Democracy in Cairo as being qualified later on in the speech as he did defend certain moral principles that go directly to human rights no matter how softly he spoke. The deeper truth might be that Obama tried to play it from all sides. That makes nice speeches in a global market but indicates little direction to the parties concerned. The signal traffic from Obama is the problem building and to apply a human rights and broad stroke message across the board is hardly "realism" in practice.
Iran is another case entirely as is Pakistan. The problem with the comparison of Obama's approach to Bush Sr's realism is that Obama seeks to impose an across the board game plan when each situation represents a different national security calculus. Shall we really look deeply into the foreign policy theories of the Bush 1 administration and flush out the realism? No, I won't go there again....
We should be pressing hard on human rights in Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Burma and Somalia. Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, the focus is on internal threats to fledgling Democracy. Honduras is a key location for sensitivity as is in Columbia given the balance in South America and we should be as careful the signal we craft. It is important we send clear messages to Brazil, Cuba, Venezuela and Mexico. Free Speech, Woman's Rights, Genocide, Proliferation, Ecological Destruction, Slavery, Torture etc. are always front and center, regardless of the international dislike of Bush Jr. Reagan was rather well liked and he was the supreme unilateralist. He threw out the neo-cons after he achieved his breakthrough. Bush Sr. rehired them. Again, the sweeping generalization of policy as "realism". Reagan's Star Wars wasn't very realistic back in 1983.
To compare the hard calculus of yesterday's realists to Obama would suggest he has an equally compelling threat matrix and is willing like those realists to call the enemy by their names and justify our actions as necessary moves in a battle we plan to win. Those realists did win their ideological conflict with the Soviets and Red Chinese. The writer makes all kinds of dubious comparisons and some false-comparisons too.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 12:14 pm
There is no mention by the writer of the consequence of ignored gestures, except for the warning to have plan B.
I find it ironic that Power and Rice have been muted, as Packer spells out the game plan. Some take Obama's statement about Democracy in Cairo as being qualified later on in the speech as he did defend certain moral principles that go directly to human rights no matter how softly he spoke. The deeper truth might be that Obama tried to play it from all sides. That makes nice speeches in a global market but indicates little direction to the parties concerned. The signal traffic from Obama is the problem building and to apply a human rights and broad stroke message across the board is hardly "realism" in practice.
Iran is another case entirely as is Pakistan. The problem with the comparison of Obama's approach to Bush Sr's realism is that Obama seeks to impose an across the board game plan when each situation represents a different national security calculus. Shall we really look deeply into the foreign policy theories of the Bush 1 administration and flush out the realism? No, I won't go there again....
We should be pressing hard on human rights in Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Burma and Somalia. Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, the focus is on internal threats to fledgling Democracy. Honduras is a key location for sensitivity as is in Columbia given the balance in South America and we should be as careful the signal we craft. It is important we send clear messages to Brazil, Cuba, Venezuela and Mexico. Free Speech, Woman's Rights, Genocide, Proliferation, Ecological Destruction, Slavery, Torture etc. are always front and center, regardless of the international dislike of Bush Jr. Reagan was rather well liked and he was the supreme unilateralist. He threw out the neo-cons after he achieved his breakthrough. Bush Sr. rehired them. Again, the sweeping generalization of policy as "realism". Reagan's Star Wars wasn't very realistic back in 1983.
To compare the hard calculus of yesterday's realists to Obama would suggest he has an equally compelling threat matrix and is willing like those realists to call the enemy by their names and justify our actions as necessary moves in a battle we plan to win. Those realists did win their ideological conflict with the Soviets and Red Chinese. The writer makes all kinds of dubious comparisons and some false-comparisons too.....
It's getting unbearable now. Time for Obama to start a new diplomatic initiative.I suggest he do a karaoke duet with Netanyahu at the UN. This song would work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maAyfcO-X3k
I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez would make a cute couple doing this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHX493bB3U
Posted by: Craig at May 10, 2010 1:21 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maAyfcO-X3k
I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez would make a cute couple doing this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHX493bB3U
Oh, I think the US military should send this one out to Saddam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5cqe_JE0Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most-wanted_Iraqi_playing_cards
If you like to gamble, I tell you I'm your man
you win some, lose some, it's all the same to me
The pleasure is to play, it makes no difference what you say
I don't share your greed, the only card I need is
the Ace of Spades
the Ace of Spades
Playin' for the high one, dancin' with the devil
going with the flow, it's all a game to me
7 or 11, snake eyes watching you
Double up or quit, double stake or split
the Ace of Spades
the Ace of Spades
You know I'm born to lose
and gamblin's made for fools
But that's the way I like it baby
I don't want to live forever
and don't forget the joker
Pushing up the ante, I know you got to see me
read 'em and weep, the dead man's hand again
I see it in your eyes, take one look and die
The only thing you see, you know it's gonna be
the Ace of Spades
the Ace of Spades
Posted by: Craig at May 10, 2010 1:24 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5cqe_JE0Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most-wanted_Iraqi_playing_cards
If you like to gamble, I tell you I'm your man
you win some, lose some, it's all the same to me
The pleasure is to play, it makes no difference what you say
I don't share your greed, the only card I need is
the Ace of Spades
the Ace of Spades
Playin' for the high one, dancin' with the devil
going with the flow, it's all a game to me
7 or 11, snake eyes watching you
Double up or quit, double stake or split
the Ace of Spades
the Ace of Spades
You know I'm born to lose
and gamblin's made for fools
But that's the way I like it baby
I don't want to live forever
and don't forget the joker
Pushing up the ante, I know you got to see me
read 'em and weep, the dead man's hand again
I see it in your eyes, take one look and die
The only thing you see, you know it's gonna be
the Ace of Spades
the Ace of Spades
"no system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other.”
Is that all democracy is, just a system of government among many?
This is certainly a departure from the past. All US administrations for generations have promoted the expansion of freedom around the world (not a perfect record there, I know). I think he has it backwards. We should work actively at toppling all the autocrats around the world.
Posted by: Joe at May 10, 2010 1:30 pm
Is that all democracy is, just a system of government among many?
This is certainly a departure from the past. All US administrations for generations have promoted the expansion of freedom around the world (not a perfect record there, I know). I think he has it backwards. We should work actively at toppling all the autocrats around the world.
You're funny Craig. Even Jefferson would be an ADVOCATE of human rights and Democracy. He would hardly reduce Liberal Democracy down to just Democracy. Even the surprise by Obama which Parker noted reflected a lack of realism...lol. I have often said that a President who is often surprised is one that is not very realistic.
And the hypocrisy is that there IS a certain contempt for American leadership and "values" underlying many of the resumes working for Obama. So he is soft pushing a world view that is a bit different than typical centrist administrations, labeling it realism through minions while behaving quite unrealistically. Sure, that's the ticket.....
As I said, the everything for everyone approach. Freedom is a relative term I guess......
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 1:52 pm
And the hypocrisy is that there IS a certain contempt for American leadership and "values" underlying many of the resumes working for Obama. So he is soft pushing a world view that is a bit different than typical centrist administrations, labeling it realism through minions while behaving quite unrealistically. Sure, that's the ticket.....
As I said, the everything for everyone approach. Freedom is a relative term I guess......
Well, Maxtrue, since I'm on a YouTube kick today I'll use this one to illustrate what I believe is Obama's view of the US:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwuOHwrkS_4
The beast behind our eyes is loose,
The day has come, the day has come,
We march to Armageddon, hungry for the war
I see the hated enemy, I see what I was taught to see
And one of us will bend the knee
We understand the law
The blood lust jerks our legs to march,
Fife and drum, fife and drum
Our eyes are fixed and fearless
Searching for the war
Our statesmen deal in blood and lies
100 million stifled cries, 100 million wasted lives
Already gone before
So March or Die, March or Die
The stench of death is in the sky
We never fail to satisfy
We rend with tooth and claw
Sword and shield and jackboot heel
We love to kill, we love to kill
We love to taste our own blood
Squirm in our own gore
Children weep and widows wail,
Our education systems fail,
To hide our guilt we build more jails,
and we shall build still more
Our forests die, the stranglehold
That we put on the earth for gold
Will yet increase ten thousand fold
And no one knows what for
March and die, March and die
Defecate, despoil and lie
Cheat, dissemble, preach & spy
Build your house of straw
Laugh and cry, laugh and cry
Bloody sunset drowns the sky
For earth to heal then we must die
No-one deserves it more
I tell you we are doomed my friends
Our time is come, our time is come
We live within a charnel house
Rotten to the core
We glorify lust, greed & pain
We drown our hope in poison rain
We point the finger, shift the blame
Ambition makes us whores
March or croak, march or croak
All your lives a cosmic joke
Fill your days with piss and smoke
The wolf waits at your door
Burn and dance, burn and dance
Sex, death, torture, false romance
Whoop and howl, you have no chance
Burn and rise no more
Burn and rise no more
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Posted by: Craig at May 10, 2010 2:06 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwuOHwrkS_4
The beast behind our eyes is loose,
The day has come, the day has come,
We march to Armageddon, hungry for the war
I see the hated enemy, I see what I was taught to see
And one of us will bend the knee
We understand the law
The blood lust jerks our legs to march,
Fife and drum, fife and drum
Our eyes are fixed and fearless
Searching for the war
Our statesmen deal in blood and lies
100 million stifled cries, 100 million wasted lives
Already gone before
So March or Die, March or Die
The stench of death is in the sky
We never fail to satisfy
We rend with tooth and claw
Sword and shield and jackboot heel
We love to kill, we love to kill
We love to taste our own blood
Squirm in our own gore
Children weep and widows wail,
Our education systems fail,
To hide our guilt we build more jails,
and we shall build still more
Our forests die, the stranglehold
That we put on the earth for gold
Will yet increase ten thousand fold
And no one knows what for
March and die, March and die
Defecate, despoil and lie
Cheat, dissemble, preach & spy
Build your house of straw
Laugh and cry, laugh and cry
Bloody sunset drowns the sky
For earth to heal then we must die
No-one deserves it more
I tell you we are doomed my friends
Our time is come, our time is come
We live within a charnel house
Rotten to the core
We glorify lust, greed & pain
We drown our hope in poison rain
We point the finger, shift the blame
Ambition makes us whores
March or croak, march or croak
All your lives a cosmic joke
Fill your days with piss and smoke
The wolf waits at your door
Burn and dance, burn and dance
Sex, death, torture, false romance
Whoop and howl, you have no chance
Burn and rise no more
Burn and rise no more
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
Die, die, die, die, die
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Nathania Johnson. Nathania Johnson said: The Dark Side of Engagement with Governments: I have always appreciated George Packer's work, even when I do not a... http://bit.ly/8Z3kgS [...]
Posted by: Tweets that mention The Dark Side of Engagement with Governments: I have always appreciated George Packer's work, even when I do not a... -- Topsy.com at May 10, 2010 2:37 pm
Holy crap...
Yeah, the video should have a two man revolutionary fife and drum walking down the muddy grey road to oblivion.......sponsored by MoveOn.
It is funny how all three major modern narratives, Clash of Civilizations, Evolution and Big Brother are depicted by media with such self-hating endings;
We burn the world
We go extinct
We become slaves
By simply re-directing the finger, the alternatives are;
We defeat irrationality
We adapt and evolve into creatures of the solar sytem
We live free
The outcomes of course depend on what one sees as the threat.....
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/mz0390_05_07.asp What's next?
http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18559&Itemid=132 Russia says Iran already a danger
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jkVdleyU1JRWczjzRZfAgGsy1mtQ Iranian human rights violations
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=219235 The Madman speaketh
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 2:53 pm
Yeah, the video should have a two man revolutionary fife and drum walking down the muddy grey road to oblivion.......sponsored by MoveOn.
It is funny how all three major modern narratives, Clash of Civilizations, Evolution and Big Brother are depicted by media with such self-hating endings;
We burn the world
We go extinct
We become slaves
By simply re-directing the finger, the alternatives are;
We defeat irrationality
We adapt and evolve into creatures of the solar sytem
We live free
The outcomes of course depend on what one sees as the threat.....
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/mz0390_05_07.asp What's next?
http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18559&Itemid=132 Russia says Iran already a danger
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jkVdleyU1JRWczjzRZfAgGsy1mtQ Iranian human rights violations
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=219235 The Madman speaketh
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/obama-is-faltering-at-ahmadinejad-s-trapeze-act-1.289504
I wonder what the polls in Israel and America have to say about Obama's policy in the ME.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 2:58 pm
I wonder what the polls in Israel and America have to say about Obama's policy in the ME.
Counterterrorism blog warned 22 days ago that AQ would retaliate against the termination of their leadership in Iraq. Experts warned that Iraqi and US security should take appropriate action because revenge was certain to come. Well 22 days later hundreds have been killed. Part of the problem is the stalemate which Iran has been encouraging in an attempt to get Shia to form a sectarian block. I guess Obama has no problem with Iraqi leadership flouting the results of a Democratic election.....
Let's see how Obamaian realism plays in Iraq.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 3:44 pm
Let's see how Obamaian realism plays in Iraq.
Meantime the Sunnis fight the Shia who fight the Druze who fight the Alawites and why not the Sufis.......................keeps them busy...... (a la Saudi Arabia style of diplomacy...........mmmmmmmmm.........)
Posted by: diana at May 10, 2010 4:12 pm
There are some who are not so busy diana : http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/05/open-source-warfare-navy-style.html
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 6:08 pm
I believe the Arabs want freedom and democracy as much as anyone else.
Saw this article:
http://mydd.com/users/mainstreet/posts/the-likud-charter-wiping-palestine-off-the-map
Does Likud's charter state that there cannot be a Palestinian state? Obviously specific Likud party members are open to or supportive of a Palestinian state.
Similarly; there are Hamas party members open to or supportive of a true two state solution.
Wouldn't we all be best off if both Likud and Hamas amended their founding charters?
Posted by: anan at May 10, 2010 6:19 pm
Saw this article:
http://mydd.com/users/mainstreet/posts/the-likud-charter-wiping-palestine-off-the-map
Does Likud's charter state that there cannot be a Palestinian state? Obviously specific Likud party members are open to or supportive of a Palestinian state.
Similarly; there are Hamas party members open to or supportive of a true two state solution.
Wouldn't we all be best off if both Likud and Hamas amended their founding charters?
Anan, please don't play the moral equivalency game. When the same proportion of Palestinians support the two state solution as Israelis, then you might be on to something. Israelis do not seek to destroy the Palestinians. Had Palestinians been open to the idea of a negotiated settlement decades ago, this horror would be over.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 6:33 pm
Anan:
Similarly; there are Hamas party members open to or supportive of a true two state solution.
That's new to me.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 10, 2010 6:43 pm
Similarly; there are Hamas party members open to or supportive of a true two state solution.
That's new to me.
I mean, "news" to me.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 10, 2010 6:43 pm
http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18560&Itemid=72 for diana
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 10, 2010 6:49 pm
There is already a Two-State Solution to the Palestine Mandate. The territory east of the Jordan River, comprising roughly 80% of the Mandate, is now the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The overwhelming majority of its people think of themselves as "Palestinian", including the Queen. Just rename the thing "the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine" and that's the Palestinian State; Israel is the other state. Arabs who want to live west of the Jordan but don't want to be Israeli citizens can have citizenship in the Kingdom of Palestine.
Maybe Jews who want to live east of the Jordan would be permitted there in equal numbers. (Who am I kidding? That'll never happen)
Posted by: The Monster at May 10, 2010 7:50 pm
Maybe Jews who want to live east of the Jordan would be permitted there in equal numbers. (Who am I kidding? That'll never happen)
"the everything for everyone approach"
I see a weak, insecure personality's never satisfied hunger for acceptance and approval, telling any audience what he determines they need to hear, so they then respond with tribute that temporarily offsets a gnawing conviction of inadequacy. Any message, no matter how uninformed, becomes merely a means to that end; that is, realism beyond personal need isn't a necessary consideration. As someone said about their tobacco addiction, I don't do it to feel good but to keep from feeling bad.
Dr. Otto Kernberg on the narcissistic personality:
"Very often such patients are considered to be 'dependent' because they need so much tribute and adoration from others, but on a deeper level they are completely unable really to depend on anybody because of their deep distrust and depreciation of others...and behind a surface which very often is charming and engaging, one senses coldness and ruthlessness..."
from
"Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism"
Posted by: Paul S. at May 10, 2010 8:34 pm
I see a weak, insecure personality's never satisfied hunger for acceptance and approval, telling any audience what he determines they need to hear, so they then respond with tribute that temporarily offsets a gnawing conviction of inadequacy. Any message, no matter how uninformed, becomes merely a means to that end; that is, realism beyond personal need isn't a necessary consideration. As someone said about their tobacco addiction, I don't do it to feel good but to keep from feeling bad.
Dr. Otto Kernberg on the narcissistic personality:
"Very often such patients are considered to be 'dependent' because they need so much tribute and adoration from others, but on a deeper level they are completely unable really to depend on anybody because of their deep distrust and depreciation of others...and behind a surface which very often is charming and engaging, one senses coldness and ruthlessness..."
from
"Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism"
Maxtrue,
Even Jefferson would be an ADVOCATE of human rights and Democracy.
Of course he would. Unfortunately, there isn't any appetite for democracy and human rights in Egypt. Even if you asked the opposition who pretend to want democracy they'll tell you that the primary "opposition" in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood. And if you believe a militant Islamist group like the Muslim Brotherhood wants democracy and human rights, I know a Nigerian princess who needs help getting her families money into a safe bank account, like yours. I'm sure the Ikhwan would love it if they could get the US to turn on the NDP and empower them in the process though! That's a win-win for them. They get to stick it to the US with US assistance, and seize control of the largest Arab country at the same time.
And the hypocrisy is that there IS a certain contempt for American leadership and "values" underlying many of the resumes working for Obama.
I think you are right about that. I try to support Obama when I think he's making the right call, but I have no illusions that he ever goes my way for ideological reasons.
Posted by: Craig at May 10, 2010 11:05 pm
Even Jefferson would be an ADVOCATE of human rights and Democracy.
Of course he would. Unfortunately, there isn't any appetite for democracy and human rights in Egypt. Even if you asked the opposition who pretend to want democracy they'll tell you that the primary "opposition" in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood. And if you believe a militant Islamist group like the Muslim Brotherhood wants democracy and human rights, I know a Nigerian princess who needs help getting her families money into a safe bank account, like yours. I'm sure the Ikhwan would love it if they could get the US to turn on the NDP and empower them in the process though! That's a win-win for them. They get to stick it to the US with US assistance, and seize control of the largest Arab country at the same time.
And the hypocrisy is that there IS a certain contempt for American leadership and "values" underlying many of the resumes working for Obama.
I think you are right about that. I try to support Obama when I think he's making the right call, but I have no illusions that he ever goes my way for ideological reasons.
Once again anand leaps in, irrelevantly and off-topic, to pimp those who publicly boast of their aim to annihilate the Jews. There is really no question of anand's malevolent antisemitism.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 10, 2010 11:54 pm
"That's news to me."
Everything anand says is "news", because he is a compulsive antisemitic liar. An astonishingly large percentage of his assertions are not only false but diametrically opposed to the truth and this is merely another one in a very, very long line.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 10, 2010 11:56 pm
Everything anand says is "news", because he is a compulsive antisemitic liar. An astonishingly large percentage of his assertions are not only false but diametrically opposed to the truth and this is merely another one in a very, very long line.
What exactly do you disagree with Gary?
Some of us actually care about Israel and want Israel to do the right thing by its Palestinian Israeli citizens and its Palestinian syblings from the occupied territories; because it is consistent with Israeli values and Israeli interests.
The Arabs and terrorists behave like enemies of both Palestinians and Israelis. Doesn't it make sense for Palestinians and Israelis to unite against their shared enemies?
Did you ever read my comments to you?
http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/03/syria-and-iran-think-were-the-sick-horse.php
Posted by: anan at May 11, 2010 12:39 am
Some of us actually care about Israel and want Israel to do the right thing by its Palestinian Israeli citizens and its Palestinian syblings from the occupied territories; because it is consistent with Israeli values and Israeli interests.
The Arabs and terrorists behave like enemies of both Palestinians and Israelis. Doesn't it make sense for Palestinians and Israelis to unite against their shared enemies?
Did you ever read my comments to you?
http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/03/syria-and-iran-think-were-the-sick-horse.php
"Some" is not sufficient Anan and let's admit that the issue now has been enlarged to include Iran: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/me_iran0382_05_06.asp
It is not that your words don't make sense, its just that they ignore the reality of what most Palestinians think and support. You have Hizb'Allah actively seeking to turn the million Israeli Arabs against Israel. Half of Fatah's officers have defected to Hizb'Allah. The Palestinians relinquished the control of their future to the Iranian/Israeli conflict. I rather doubt you can make a case for Palestinian unity in supporting your assertions, though I don't doubt many Palestinians have serious reservations about where their leadership has brought them....
Jumblatt as fallen completely in the toilet: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3887873,00.html
Given the facts, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 11, 2010 7:02 am
It is not that your words don't make sense, its just that they ignore the reality of what most Palestinians think and support. You have Hizb'Allah actively seeking to turn the million Israeli Arabs against Israel. Half of Fatah's officers have defected to Hizb'Allah. The Palestinians relinquished the control of their future to the Iranian/Israeli conflict. I rather doubt you can make a case for Palestinian unity in supporting your assertions, though I don't doubt many Palestinians have serious reservations about where their leadership has brought them....
Jumblatt as fallen completely in the toilet: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3887873,00.html
Given the facts, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Craig, I didn't mean to contradict your comments. Of course you have a point. I was just trying to point out that those most vocal for DEMOCRACY in Egypt are mostly those who want it so they can destroy it once in power.
I try to support Obama too when I can. I will not however sit back and be silent as he makes a Grand Bargain with the Devil based on delusional thinking. Neither will you.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 11, 2010 7:13 am
I try to support Obama too when I can. I will not however sit back and be silent as he makes a Grand Bargain with the Devil based on delusional thinking. Neither will you.....
"some of us actually care about Israel"
The only thing you "care" about Israel is when will it be annihilated.
"Did you ever read my comments to you?"
You are really a pathetically stupid motherfucker, anand, just like the rest of the antisemites. In the post you're linking here you once again grovel and toady to the vilest antisemitic annihilationists such as Hamas and Hezbollah. And that's supposed to prove how much you like me, that you want your buddies to torture and murder me.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 11, 2010 10:49 pm
The only thing you "care" about Israel is when will it be annihilated.
"Did you ever read my comments to you?"
You are really a pathetically stupid motherfucker, anand, just like the rest of the antisemites. In the post you're linking here you once again grovel and toady to the vilest antisemitic annihilationists such as Hamas and Hezbollah. And that's supposed to prove how much you like me, that you want your buddies to torture and murder me.
Jumblatt as fallen completely in the toilet.
Not entirely fair.
He wants to survive.
He saw which way the winds are blowing.
He is the ultimate realist.
The alternative is that he will follow in the footsteps of his dear father (which he likely cares less about) and abdicates his people to a less than pleasant fate (which he likely cares a lot more about).
And yet, he must know that he continues to be in the cross-hairs; and he will be pressured by his new "friends" to the breaking point.
As for the realist example he gives, expect more of the same from the other countries in the region.
And lucky for Obama, he can always blame Israel for his problems at home and abroad, including the ramp up to war; and few will object publicly except for the usual suspects. (Don't know who they are? Just ask W&M.)
As the noose around Israel gets tighter and tighter....
And the rest of the countries of the region? They will be motivated by a combination of fear, survival, and thus the need to shout the loudest during the increasingly frequent two-minute hate sessions directed against the regional Emmanuel Goldstein---and its patron, no matter how much distance Obama wants to put between the US and Israel.
No one said it was going to be pretty.
Posted by: Barry Meislin at May 12, 2010 6:05 am
Not entirely fair.
He wants to survive.
He saw which way the winds are blowing.
He is the ultimate realist.
The alternative is that he will follow in the footsteps of his dear father (which he likely cares less about) and abdicates his people to a less than pleasant fate (which he likely cares a lot more about).
And yet, he must know that he continues to be in the cross-hairs; and he will be pressured by his new "friends" to the breaking point.
As for the realist example he gives, expect more of the same from the other countries in the region.
And lucky for Obama, he can always blame Israel for his problems at home and abroad, including the ramp up to war; and few will object publicly except for the usual suspects. (Don't know who they are? Just ask W&M.)
As the noose around Israel gets tighter and tighter....
And the rest of the countries of the region? They will be motivated by a combination of fear, survival, and thus the need to shout the loudest during the increasingly frequent two-minute hate sessions directed against the regional Emmanuel Goldstein---and its patron, no matter how much distance Obama wants to put between the US and Israel.
No one said it was going to be pretty.
Was is survival when your principles mean nothing? Reformists in Iran show more guts.
As far as Obama's realism: http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE64B37R20100512
Am I nuts or did Obama pull MDS from Poland because of Russian objections? Why not supply Georgia with MDS? This remark by the Russians shows us just what is behind Club K/S-300s and the Russian push for influence.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 12, 2010 9:30 am
As far as Obama's realism: http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE64B37R20100512
Am I nuts or did Obama pull MDS from Poland because of Russian objections? Why not supply Georgia with MDS? This remark by the Russians shows us just what is behind Club K/S-300s and the Russian push for influence.
What is survival...that is.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 12, 2010 9:30 am
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