May 13, 2010
A Most Disturbing Moment of Clarity
Following David Horowitz's talk earlier this month at the University of California, San Diego, was one of the most chilling brief conversations I've heard in a while.
A semi-polite yet coldly hostile student in the audience introduced herself during the question period as Jumanah Imad Albahri of the Muslim Students' Association, and she refused to condemn either Hamas or Hezbollah when Horowitz asked her to clarify her position. He has faced a number of students just like her before, and he's well-practiced in the art of drawing them out, so he asked her a point-blank question that couldn't be easily dodged.
"I am a Jew," he said. "The head of Hezbollah has said that he hopes that we will gather in Israel so he doesn’t have to hunt us down globally. For or against it?"
"For it," she said.
No sooner was the video of this exchange posted when one of the student's teachers rushed to defend her.
"This girl is actually my student," A. Casavantes wrote in the comments' section of Horowitz's NewsReal blog. "I know her to be an intelligent, moral young woman who believes in peace. I do not support any organization that advocates violence against any specific group, nor do I believe that my student would do so. As a peace loving, Catholic teacher, I'm saddened that this speaker -- her elder -- manipulated the conversation in this fashion to make her look like someone she isn't, out of an egotistical desire to prove his own point, rather than engaging in a constructive dialogue."
Read the rest in Commentary Magazine.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 1:28 PM
Comments
"I know her to be an intelligent, moral young woman who believes in peace."
I am sure she does. And that she tells the Catholic teacher that she believes in peace, and she is honest.
But, the rub: she has a different definition of "peace." Peace is victory, not cessation of hostilities, the latter being merely hudna. Jihad is like some Marxists' definition of "permanent revolution," its "peace" can only come with victory too, once all the "contradictions" end, namely, the other side still existing.
Posted by: j at May 13, 2010 2:21 pm
I am sure she does. And that she tells the Catholic teacher that she believes in peace, and she is honest.
But, the rub: she has a different definition of "peace." Peace is victory, not cessation of hostilities, the latter being merely hudna. Jihad is like some Marxists' definition of "permanent revolution," its "peace" can only come with victory too, once all the "contradictions" end, namely, the other side still existing.
Why is it that people don't acknowledge this?
Posted by: Ali at May 13, 2010 3:17 pm
As a peace loving, Catholic teacher, I'm saddened that this speaker -- her elder -- manipulated the conversation in this fashion to make her look like someone she isn't, out of an egotistical desire to prove his own point, rather than engaging in a constructive dialogue.
lol. Hard to have a "constructive dialog" with somebody who thinks you should be killed.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 3:31 pm
lol. Hard to have a "constructive dialog" with somebody who thinks you should be killed.
While I found some of Horowitz's initial responses to be annoying deflective (In particular the initial response to the question with "do you support hamas"), the end result was still scary.
Inevitably though this isnt going to do much besides preach to the choir for those of us who are already alarmed, and be rationalized and deflected away by others.
Posted by: Ian at May 13, 2010 3:49 pm
Inevitably though this isnt going to do much besides preach to the choir for those of us who are already alarmed, and be rationalized and deflected away by others.
Totten,
You seem to be helping polarize the issue here.
Instead of seeing the world so back and white, why not ask: Why is this girl really trying to say? What is her position? And why?
Perhaps the chaos of the lecture hall threw her into a craze as she answered in a way that old David wanted--to achieve his ends, of course.
You should spend more time on the West Bank, as a place to start, and learn more about why people feel this way. Most of what I've come to understand by being in the region is that the hate is mostly not personal. Sometimes it is. But in large, Arabs don't like Israel because of its actions--not because it is populated with mostly European Semites, like myself.
I understand getting emotional to try and sell a piece, but it seems clear to me that this kind of sensationalizing isn't helping anybody.
What say you friend?
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 3:54 pm
You seem to be helping polarize the issue here.
Instead of seeing the world so back and white, why not ask: Why is this girl really trying to say? What is her position? And why?
Perhaps the chaos of the lecture hall threw her into a craze as she answered in a way that old David wanted--to achieve his ends, of course.
You should spend more time on the West Bank, as a place to start, and learn more about why people feel this way. Most of what I've come to understand by being in the region is that the hate is mostly not personal. Sometimes it is. But in large, Arabs don't like Israel because of its actions--not because it is populated with mostly European Semites, like myself.
I understand getting emotional to try and sell a piece, but it seems clear to me that this kind of sensationalizing isn't helping anybody.
What say you friend?
Michael,
One more thing. When David paraphrases who I assume is Nasrallah, is the quote taken out of context? Is he talking about Jews, Israelis, or Israeli combative units that chase down Hezbollah abroad?
I'm not supporter of Nasrallah, but I have heard him make only anti Israeli statements, nothing directed to Jews in particular. Though I could be wrong.
Best. And I await you book.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 4:04 pm
One more thing. When David paraphrases who I assume is Nasrallah, is the quote taken out of context? Is he talking about Jews, Israelis, or Israeli combative units that chase down Hezbollah abroad?
I'm not supporter of Nasrallah, but I have heard him make only anti Israeli statements, nothing directed to Jews in particular. Though I could be wrong.
Best. And I await you book.
Abu Guerrilla, I think you're falling into exactly the trap I describe here.
What would you think about her if she said exactly the same things, yet was a European neo-Nazi instead of an Arab who supported Hezbollah?
I don't care what her excuse is. She's a skinhead in a headscarf.
I know you've met plenty of Arabs in the Middle East who are not like her. So have I. Many of them are my friends. That doesn't mean she gets a pass.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 4:23 pm
What would you think about her if she said exactly the same things, yet was a European neo-Nazi instead of an Arab who supported Hezbollah?
I don't care what her excuse is. She's a skinhead in a headscarf.
I know you've met plenty of Arabs in the Middle East who are not like her. So have I. Many of them are my friends. That doesn't mean she gets a pass.
What would you think of an Israeli who said she wished all the world's Arabs would gather in Gaza so they could be annihilated all at once without having to be hunted down everywhere else?
I suspect you wouldn't hesitate to call that person some kind of fascist. And it wouldn't make any difference that Israelis have legitimate gripes about they way they've been treated by Arabs.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 4:26 pm
I suspect you wouldn't hesitate to call that person some kind of fascist. And it wouldn't make any difference that Israelis have legitimate gripes about they way they've been treated by Arabs.
Abu Guerilla,
Perhaps the chaos of the lecture hall threw her into a craze as she answered in a way that old David wanted--to achieve his ends, of course.
She used her "question" to challenge David Horowitz to clarify some statement he made that she claimed tied the Muslim Student Organization in to jihadi terrorist organizations. David Horowitz - quite rightly in my opinion - asked her whether she personally supports jihadi terrorist organizations. She admitted that she does. I'm at a loss to explain why she asked David Horowitz to prove something that she freely admits to herself.
I don't view that as cleverness on David Horowitz's part, nor of I view it as manipulation. I view it as stupidity on the part of the student.
Student: "Can you prove I support terrorist groups"?
DH: "Do you support terrorist groups?"
Student: "Yes"
I hope that girl isn't in school on a scholarship. If she is, somebody needs to raise their standards. By a lot.
Does anyone know if she's a US citizen?
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 4:34 pm
Perhaps the chaos of the lecture hall threw her into a craze as she answered in a way that old David wanted--to achieve his ends, of course.
She used her "question" to challenge David Horowitz to clarify some statement he made that she claimed tied the Muslim Student Organization in to jihadi terrorist organizations. David Horowitz - quite rightly in my opinion - asked her whether she personally supports jihadi terrorist organizations. She admitted that she does. I'm at a loss to explain why she asked David Horowitz to prove something that she freely admits to herself.
I don't view that as cleverness on David Horowitz's part, nor of I view it as manipulation. I view it as stupidity on the part of the student.
Student: "Can you prove I support terrorist groups"?
DH: "Do you support terrorist groups?"
Student: "Yes"
I hope that girl isn't in school on a scholarship. If she is, somebody needs to raise their standards. By a lot.
Does anyone know if she's a US citizen?
Abu, this wasn't a complicated question. Did Hizb'Allah team up with Quds to murder Jews worshiping in a temple in Argentina? So why try to deflect and wonder which Jews Nasrallah wants to kill? The West Bank has enjoyed more prosperity directly related to the degree they policed themselves. Have you ever wondered why the aggressor still plays the victim?
No pass.
Today Obama slashed 53 million from NYC anti-terrorism funds as Boston widens the searches for NYC bomber plotters and Obama signals a partnership with the Alliance of Civilizations.
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Russia-to-US-No-Unilateral-Sanctions-Against-Iran-93680684.html Who knows, maybe Congress will listen.
The underpinning of the slide into irrationality and conflict finds its footing in the West with the dishonest reasoning of Liberal intellectuals. This stuff starts in school. A teacher offering such nonsense at my old High School would not receive tenure under pressure from the alumni and parents.
I didn't think I would be around to see the beginning of the scapegoating. I mean a real shift in the unthinkable. What a sorry example of the failure to educate. But then that is nothing compared to how Hizb'Allah and Hamas educate. And this from a former Muslim President of the UN General Assembly: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4149.htm
That the bright minds at the NYT and LAT allow this stuff to go unchallenged condemns us to a world where children have no clue about the lessons of the past......and we may repeat the same mistakes,
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 13, 2010 4:59 pm
No pass.
Today Obama slashed 53 million from NYC anti-terrorism funds as Boston widens the searches for NYC bomber plotters and Obama signals a partnership with the Alliance of Civilizations.
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Russia-to-US-No-Unilateral-Sanctions-Against-Iran-93680684.html Who knows, maybe Congress will listen.
The underpinning of the slide into irrationality and conflict finds its footing in the West with the dishonest reasoning of Liberal intellectuals. This stuff starts in school. A teacher offering such nonsense at my old High School would not receive tenure under pressure from the alumni and parents.
I didn't think I would be around to see the beginning of the scapegoating. I mean a real shift in the unthinkable. What a sorry example of the failure to educate. But then that is nothing compared to how Hizb'Allah and Hamas educate. And this from a former Muslim President of the UN General Assembly: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4149.htm
That the bright minds at the NYT and LAT allow this stuff to go unchallenged condemns us to a world where children have no clue about the lessons of the past......and we may repeat the same mistakes,
Gosh, Abu, so much to say to your pseudo-amicable insults. I'll keep it short to your worst failings,
"Perhaps the chaos of the lecture hall threw her into a craze as she answered in a way that old David wanted--to achieve his ends, of course."
Most people in "the world", I bet, see this type of unguarded statement as a window to truth. In legal land this is called an "excited utterance," the most damning type of confession. A judge would instruct this statement carries special weight against her. I'm sure psychologists have a similar take.
"When David paraphrases who I assume is Nasrallah, is the quote taken out of context?"
He spoke about all Jews. Think on this, it is a famous statement, but you do not know about it. You did not know it. You are in a box. The people who populate it are "Europeans" with little desire to know facts that compromise firm prejudice. Your discourse is limited. With your dumbfounded admission you did not know about Nasrallah's statement you eliminate all your call to authority, that being yourself, and your projection of yourself as "the world."
Your expertise--nada.
Advice for next time you need to rationalize Nasrallah's statement. First rule of Anti-Semitism, always have a response shifting blame on the Jews. Second, never allow any single one defamatory yet true fact on the "victim" side rest unmuddied. If it is uncomfortable, contrive a way to blame Israel. It's a traditional anti-Semitic argumentation template. You embraced it, you should live with it. And friend, what is worth doing if you cannot do it well?
Posted by: j at May 13, 2010 5:30 pm
"Perhaps the chaos of the lecture hall threw her into a craze as she answered in a way that old David wanted--to achieve his ends, of course."
Most people in "the world", I bet, see this type of unguarded statement as a window to truth. In legal land this is called an "excited utterance," the most damning type of confession. A judge would instruct this statement carries special weight against her. I'm sure psychologists have a similar take.
"When David paraphrases who I assume is Nasrallah, is the quote taken out of context?"
He spoke about all Jews. Think on this, it is a famous statement, but you do not know about it. You did not know it. You are in a box. The people who populate it are "Europeans" with little desire to know facts that compromise firm prejudice. Your discourse is limited. With your dumbfounded admission you did not know about Nasrallah's statement you eliminate all your call to authority, that being yourself, and your projection of yourself as "the world."
Your expertise--nada.
Advice for next time you need to rationalize Nasrallah's statement. First rule of Anti-Semitism, always have a response shifting blame on the Jews. Second, never allow any single one defamatory yet true fact on the "victim" side rest unmuddied. If it is uncomfortable, contrive a way to blame Israel. It's a traditional anti-Semitic argumentation template. You embraced it, you should live with it. And friend, what is worth doing if you cannot do it well?
Whoa! OK.
MJT: "She's a skinhead in a headscarf."
As a Jew watching that video I didn't quite feel that way--but of course, it's a subjective interpretation. I'm always hesitant to say things like that because they seem to provoke a bigger distraction to the facts. Though we all heard what she said at the end.
David would have done better by simply answering her question--which he didn't. She would have done better by not saying she supports a "terrorist organization," as deemed by the country she was standing in. (I'll bet she's Iraqi... there are a lot in San Diego.)
However, she clearly dose not view it that way--that Hamas, Hezbollah, etc are terrorist organizations--but it is completely beside the point: Isn't she asking how the Muslim Brotherhood & her student organization are connected?
How bout this: The old Mubarak regime in Egypt has a comfy settlement with the Muslim Brotherhood. They can be Islamists, but just non-violent ones. In fact, the Mubarak regime outsorces a lot of small projects to what we would call NGO's to what we would also call "faith-based organizations"--non violent aspects of the Brotherhood. (These people have business card and offices.)
Now, who is the second most subsidiary of American arms in the world: Egypt. Why? Because they are on our side--America.
Really?
Well, maybe. Or at least publicly.
Egypt--staunchly backed by the US--works every day with the Brotherhood, a network that I still don't understand how is connected with this hajabi's question.
ISN'T THAT THE POINT?
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 5:35 pm
MJT: "She's a skinhead in a headscarf."
As a Jew watching that video I didn't quite feel that way--but of course, it's a subjective interpretation. I'm always hesitant to say things like that because they seem to provoke a bigger distraction to the facts. Though we all heard what she said at the end.
David would have done better by simply answering her question--which he didn't. She would have done better by not saying she supports a "terrorist organization," as deemed by the country she was standing in. (I'll bet she's Iraqi... there are a lot in San Diego.)
However, she clearly dose not view it that way--that Hamas, Hezbollah, etc are terrorist organizations--but it is completely beside the point: Isn't she asking how the Muslim Brotherhood & her student organization are connected?
How bout this: The old Mubarak regime in Egypt has a comfy settlement with the Muslim Brotherhood. They can be Islamists, but just non-violent ones. In fact, the Mubarak regime outsorces a lot of small projects to what we would call NGO's to what we would also call "faith-based organizations"--non violent aspects of the Brotherhood. (These people have business card and offices.)
Now, who is the second most subsidiary of American arms in the world: Egypt. Why? Because they are on our side--America.
Really?
Well, maybe. Or at least publicly.
Egypt--staunchly backed by the US--works every day with the Brotherhood, a network that I still don't understand how is connected with this hajabi's question.
ISN'T THAT THE POINT?
Oh God, it is worse than I suspected.
I saw Abu's blog, and it is putatively knowledgeable about Lebanon.
But Abu did not know about Nasrallah's statement?
Like I said, in a box, but a portable one.
Posted by: j at May 13, 2010 5:38 pm
I saw Abu's blog, and it is putatively knowledgeable about Lebanon.
But Abu did not know about Nasrallah's statement?
Like I said, in a box, but a portable one.
[i]One more thing. When David paraphrases who I assume is Nasrallah, is the quote taken out of context? Is he talking about Jews, Israelis, or Israeli combative units that chase down Hezbollah abroad? [/i]
What's interesting, Abu Guerrilla, is that regardless of whether or not the quote was taken out of context, David asked the girl if she supported the statement as quoted. She admitted that she does.
Whether or not Nasrallah actually used those exact words, the girl admitted that she was for the gathering of all Jews in Israel so that Hizballah would not have to go chasing after them throughout the world.
As has been pointed out by other commenters, it is kind of amusing to me how she started out so careful about her views, worried that she'd have the authorities after her if she admitted support for Hamas or Hizballah, then goes right ahead and admits it a few moments later.
Posted by: Joo-Liz at May 13, 2010 5:41 pm
What's interesting, Abu Guerrilla, is that regardless of whether or not the quote was taken out of context, David asked the girl if she supported the statement as quoted. She admitted that she does.
Whether or not Nasrallah actually used those exact words, the girl admitted that she was for the gathering of all Jews in Israel so that Hizballah would not have to go chasing after them throughout the world.
As has been pointed out by other commenters, it is kind of amusing to me how she started out so careful about her views, worried that she'd have the authorities after her if she admitted support for Hamas or Hizballah, then goes right ahead and admits it a few moments later.
J: you keep referring to "his statement."
Find it. Post it. And it better in Arabic, or translated by someone "mainstream."
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 5:41 pm
Find it. Post it. And it better in Arabic, or translated by someone "mainstream."
Abu Guerilla - no one has challenged your point that the majority of Jews in Israel are "European Semites." Actually, that is not true. The Israeli Jewish population is about half descended from Ashkenazic European Jews, and the other half from Jews of the Middle East and North Africa. Contrary to the assumption you seem to be making (without saying it explicitly), Israel is not a European "settler state" in the Middle East. And I would also point out that the Middle Eastern and North African Jews in Israel were, for the most part, forced out of the Arab and Persian countries they or their ancestors came from, from the 1940s through the 1970s. When people speak of the plight of the Palestinian refugees, they should also speak of the plight of the Jews who left their homes at the same time, also, for the most part, without wanting to leave, and often leaving with only the clothes on their backs. See the blog http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/ for more information.
Posted by: Rebecca at May 13, 2010 5:43 pm
Abu Guerrilla: As a Jew watching that video I didn't quite feel that way--but of course, it's a subjective interpretation.
How is that subjective? Don't feel about it, think about it. She says, in a menacing tone of voice, that she would like to see the world's Jews gather in Israel where they can be annihilated.
That includes you.
It's a horrible thing to hear, but she said it, and I see no point pretending she said something else.
Maybe you should spend some time with Paul Berman's book. He's not a fire-breathing right-wing death beast, he's a liberal, and he has spent a long time thinking through questions like these.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 5:50 pm
How is that subjective? Don't feel about it, think about it. She says, in a menacing tone of voice, that she would like to see the world's Jews gather in Israel where they can be annihilated.
That includes you.
It's a horrible thing to hear, but she said it, and I see no point pretending she said something else.
Maybe you should spend some time with Paul Berman's book. He's not a fire-breathing right-wing death beast, he's a liberal, and he has spent a long time thinking through questions like these.
haha, you guys are HAWKS. Thanks Rebecca for picking apart my scholarship. PS--Wasn't Sharon half Sphardic?
Look, the point I really care about--which isn't even really a point--is this: Old David never answered her question, and as someone who wasn't there and just watched the video, it seemed like a good one.
Girl: "How is my group related to the Brothers?"
Then it got emotional. But isn't that a legitimate question?
And "j" ... you've got some anger issues man. It would be in the greater good for you to have a cocktail or something and relax.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 5:51 pm
Look, the point I really care about--which isn't even really a point--is this: Old David never answered her question, and as someone who wasn't there and just watched the video, it seemed like a good one.
Girl: "How is my group related to the Brothers?"
Then it got emotional. But isn't that a legitimate question?
And "j" ... you've got some anger issues man. It would be in the greater good for you to have a cocktail or something and relax.
By the way, Nasrallah's statement is reputed to have been fabricated. I don't know if that's true, but either way, some people out there clearly agree with the notion whether he actually said it or not.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 5:52 pm
"Now, who is the second most subsidiary of American arms in the world: Egypt. Why? Because they are on our side--America."
It is due to the creepy Egyptian Lobby. They only get one half of what the creepy Jewish lobby gets for Israel because they are only half as powerful, although alternatively they only have one serious enemy, while Israel has two...
Actually, all untrue! It is a fuzzy issue, particularly because anti-Semites who dominate the discourse cannot discuss the Egypt matter because it diminishes the idea of Jewish control. But it is an important matter, as you bring up. The primary reason for the military freebies is that they are boondoggles for American military companies. for Israel it begun after the '73 war. Egypt got on the dole after the peace treaty. Hey, why not accept free stuff? Makes their male egos feel better about losing the war, and let's face it, the free Russian stuff was inferior.
Posted by: j at May 13, 2010 5:53 pm
It is due to the creepy Egyptian Lobby. They only get one half of what the creepy Jewish lobby gets for Israel because they are only half as powerful, although alternatively they only have one serious enemy, while Israel has two...
Actually, all untrue! It is a fuzzy issue, particularly because anti-Semites who dominate the discourse cannot discuss the Egypt matter because it diminishes the idea of Jewish control. But it is an important matter, as you bring up. The primary reason for the military freebies is that they are boondoggles for American military companies. for Israel it begun after the '73 war. Egypt got on the dole after the peace treaty. Hey, why not accept free stuff? Makes their male egos feel better about losing the war, and let's face it, the free Russian stuff was inferior.
David would have done better by simply answering her question--which he didn't.
Watch it again! He did begin answering her question. She interrupted him so that she could clarify that she did in fact support Hezbollah. There's a transcript here:
http://thejewishpress.blogspot.com/2010/05/college-campus-new-frontier-for.html
The question:
MSA member: ...Um, if you could clarify the connection between the MSA and Jihad terrorist networks...
The answer:
Horowitz: So you won’t. I have actually had this experience many times. You didn’t actually read the pamphlet, because the pamphlet is chapter and verse. The main connection is that the MSA is part of the Muslim Brotherhood Network as revealed…
The interruption:
MSA member: I don’t think you understood what I meant by that. I meant if I say something, I am sure that I will be arrested, for reasons of homeland security. So if you could please just answer my question.
She was not baited into that. She was deliberately being provocative and aggressive. And she chose the precise moment when he was actually answering the challenge she issued to him to interrupt and kick it up a notch or ten.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 5:55 pm
Watch it again! He did begin answering her question. She interrupted him so that she could clarify that she did in fact support Hezbollah. There's a transcript here:
http://thejewishpress.blogspot.com/2010/05/college-campus-new-frontier-for.html
The question:
MSA member: ...Um, if you could clarify the connection between the MSA and Jihad terrorist networks...
The answer:
Horowitz: So you won’t. I have actually had this experience many times. You didn’t actually read the pamphlet, because the pamphlet is chapter and verse. The main connection is that the MSA is part of the Muslim Brotherhood Network as revealed…
The interruption:
MSA member: I don’t think you understood what I meant by that. I meant if I say something, I am sure that I will be arrested, for reasons of homeland security. So if you could please just answer my question.
She was not baited into that. She was deliberately being provocative and aggressive. And she chose the precise moment when he was actually answering the challenge she issued to him to interrupt and kick it up a notch or ten.
Michael,
Look my West Coast brother, I'm not defending the hajabi. It's really not a big deal. I'm just saying it didn't hit me that way.
"She says, in a menacing tone of voice, that she would like to see the world's Jews gather in Israel where they can be annihilated."
That is a "subjective" way of putting it--and it's my subjective opinion that you are being subjective.
Girl: "How is my group related to the Brothers?"
Isn't that a legitimate question? (That David didn't answer?)
If we can agree that it was... and I believe in you guys ... then we can waste more of our work hours and debate other things--like why Michael didn't write his piece on why the both of them might feel this way.
How's the cocktail going "j"?
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 5:58 pm
Look my West Coast brother, I'm not defending the hajabi. It's really not a big deal. I'm just saying it didn't hit me that way.
"She says, in a menacing tone of voice, that she would like to see the world's Jews gather in Israel where they can be annihilated."
That is a "subjective" way of putting it--and it's my subjective opinion that you are being subjective.
Girl: "How is my group related to the Brothers?"
Isn't that a legitimate question? (That David didn't answer?)
If we can agree that it was... and I believe in you guys ... then we can waste more of our work hours and debate other things--like why Michael didn't write his piece on why the both of them might feel this way.
How's the cocktail going "j"?
By the way, Nasrallah's statement is reputed to have been fabricated. I don't know if that's true, but either way, some people out there clearly agree with the notion whether he actually said it or not.
Yes, whether Nasrallah actually said it or not this student seems to be pretty enthusiastic about the idea.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 6:00 pm
Yes, whether Nasrallah actually said it or not this student seems to be pretty enthusiastic about the idea.
hahaha
"seems" & "Nasrallah's statement is reputed to have been fabricated."
"j" we gotta meet up man, cuz now I need a cocktail.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 6:02 pm
"seems" & "Nasrallah's statement is reputed to have been fabricated."
"j" we gotta meet up man, cuz now I need a cocktail.
Abu Guerilla,
DH: You didn’t actually read the pamphlet, because the pamphlet is chapter and verse. The main connection is that the MSA is part of the Muslim Brotherhood Network as revealed…
Girl interrupted him at that point, preventing him from finishing his answer.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 6:03 pm
DH: You didn’t actually read the pamphlet, because the pamphlet is chapter and verse. The main connection is that the MSA is part of the Muslim Brotherhood Network as revealed…
Girl interrupted him at that point, preventing him from finishing his answer.
PS Abu Guerrilla,
like why Michael didn't write his piece on why the both of them might feel this way.
I'd rather see you explain why you are working so hard defending this girl. I'm American (and not a Jewish one) and I want to know why this girl is allowed to attend classes in an American university. I'd also like to know why a faculty member is defending her. If an American student went to a formal school function and suggested to a speaker that Muslims should be rounded up and exterminated, would that have been brushed under the carpet too?
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 6:08 pm
like why Michael didn't write his piece on why the both of them might feel this way.
I'd rather see you explain why you are working so hard defending this girl. I'm American (and not a Jewish one) and I want to know why this girl is allowed to attend classes in an American university. I'd also like to know why a faculty member is defending her. If an American student went to a formal school function and suggested to a speaker that Muslims should be rounded up and exterminated, would that have been brushed under the carpet too?
"And "j" ... you've got some anger issues man. It would be in the greater good for you to have a cocktail or something and relax."
versus,
"ISN'T THAT THE POINT?"
etc. etc.
Reading your stuff now I think you are honestly exploring issues, your interest in Egyptian politics as something other than merely reactive to Israel is such a sign. Atypical. Good luck in your pursuits.
Posted by: j at May 13, 2010 6:08 pm
versus,
"ISN'T THAT THE POINT?"
etc. etc.
Reading your stuff now I think you are honestly exploring issues, your interest in Egyptian politics as something other than merely reactive to Israel is such a sign. Atypical. Good luck in your pursuits.
abu guerilla wrote: "Find it. Post it. And it better in Arabic, or translated by someone 'mainstream.'"
The article was in The Daily Star, the major english-language Lebanese Daily, October 23, 2002.
Access to the original article is restricted. Perhaps you (abu guerilla) should pay for access and verify it. Someone did, however, paste the entire article into the FreeRepublic site (boo!) at the time, and the particular quote ("However, Nasrallah added, 'if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.'”) has been widely discussed on the internet.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_article=1158
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/774649/posts
It really was not difficult to find, abu guerilla. Why were you unable to locate it? How is it possible that you, an expert blogger and clearly a paragon of independent blog journalism, have been entirely unaware of it?
Additionally, I am curious: would you, abu guerilla, an expert on Lebanon, perhaps please speculate on what motivates Nasrallah? What beliefs? What ideologies? What circumstances? It certainly can't be Islam, the religion of peace. So what else might it be?
Posted by: del at May 13, 2010 6:16 pm
The article was in The Daily Star, the major english-language Lebanese Daily, October 23, 2002.
Access to the original article is restricted. Perhaps you (abu guerilla) should pay for access and verify it. Someone did, however, paste the entire article into the FreeRepublic site (boo!) at the time, and the particular quote ("However, Nasrallah added, 'if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.'”) has been widely discussed on the internet.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_article=1158
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/774649/posts
It really was not difficult to find, abu guerilla. Why were you unable to locate it? How is it possible that you, an expert blogger and clearly a paragon of independent blog journalism, have been entirely unaware of it?
Additionally, I am curious: would you, abu guerilla, an expert on Lebanon, perhaps please speculate on what motivates Nasrallah? What beliefs? What ideologies? What circumstances? It certainly can't be Islam, the religion of peace. So what else might it be?
Dear j,
"How is it possible that you (Abu Guerilla), an expert blogger..."
Thanks for the endorsement!
("However, Nasrallah added, 'if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.'”) has been widely discussed on the internet.
Ekk! Oops. These assumptions. I'm an expert blogger and Nasrallah is talking about Jews.
When I took this vid of Nasrallah-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kZuDUp6YSs -- at this summers rally of the 2006 War, I he said he wasn't after Jews. Find an Arabic speaking person to translate.
And I think that's fair to say since Hezbollah has been active in helping to restore the old synagogue in downtown Beirut.
This conflict isn't about Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. It is about real estate.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 6:26 pm
"How is it possible that you (Abu Guerilla), an expert blogger..."
Thanks for the endorsement!
("However, Nasrallah added, 'if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.'”) has been widely discussed on the internet.
Ekk! Oops. These assumptions. I'm an expert blogger and Nasrallah is talking about Jews.
When I took this vid of Nasrallah-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kZuDUp6YSs -- at this summers rally of the 2006 War, I he said he wasn't after Jews. Find an Arabic speaking person to translate.
And I think that's fair to say since Hezbollah has been active in helping to restore the old synagogue in downtown Beirut.
This conflict isn't about Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. It is about real estate.
I would like to find a reference to a quote by Sayyed Nasrallah that states he wants the Jews to congregate in Israel so that he can fight them in Israel. Sayyed Nasrallah occasionally says wacko things . . . is there a place where all of them are collected with full context and referenced?
Saw the clip. Craig, she strikes me as a US citizen . . . she speaks American with her body language.
Maybe she emotionally burst out an answer without intending to? Maybe she meant to say she was partly sympathetic to Hezbollah without saying that she supported that particular statement. She does seem young and naive.
Why did she say that praising Hamas could get her in trouble with homeland security? I don't follow.
Didn't the US government work with the Muslim Brotherhood (the Palestinian wing of which is called Hamas) to defeat the evil empire? Didn't Israel back Hamas in the 1970s? Doesn't the US still speak to the Islamic brotherhood in Egypt to this day? Don't the Israelis secretly talk with Hamas?
There is a big difference between praising a particular aspect of Hamas or a specific action of Hamas; and supporting Hamas.
Why did David Horowitz attack her clothes? What about her clothes were terrorist? I don't get it. In fact, I am kind of offended. I also felt he should have treated her with more heart, compassion, empathy, and respect; the way he would have treated his own daughter if she disagreed with him. When Jumanah Imad Albahri misspoke; he should have responded with sadness; not vindictive delight that he had won an argument.
Craig, western leftists can be irritating and angry . . . even scary [Nancy Grace/Amy Goodman/Anne Coulter style.] However, actual Arabs are much less irritating, even when you disagree with them. Is it because Arabs are more authentic and genuine? Is it because Arabs have more heart?
For some reason, Jumanah Imad Albahri strikes me as naive and manipulated; but possibly authentically well intentioned. Suspect that her leftist professors are substantially less sympathetic figures.
I know this is off topic. One reason some Palestinians [non Palestinian Arabs are a different matter; and bigotry plays a bigger role in understanding their sentiments towards Israel] are saddened by Israeli actions and make difficult to understand emotional statements is because Palestinian media covers many incidents like the below:
http://angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com/2010/05/fascist-settlers-torch-300-years-old.html
"A group of fundamentalist Israeli settlers torched on Wednesday at night an 11-Dunam olive orchard in Al Rababa valley, in Silwan, south of the Old City of Jerusalem.
The Maan news Agency reported that three olive trees, over 300 years old, were burnt down while dozens of trees were partially burnt.
The attack took place while thousands of Jewish settlers held a provocative procession in Silwan under extensive Israeli police presence. Yet, the police did not prevent the settlers from torching the orchard."
Since many friends of Israel and Israelis read this blog; could you suggest a way for Palestinians to report this crime to the police and get the perpetrators arrested? It just happened on Wednesday, so perhaps some of the people reading this blog could help.
Are there many lawyers (either Israeli or Palestinians) willing to work pro bono to achieve justice in cases like these?
As MJT has said; many of the settlers in the occupied territories are crazy. In my view they need to be admitted to medical health clinics so that they can be treated for their condition. Simultaneously, the PA and Israeli government need to hire many more public prosecutors; so that they can prosecute and imprison (or forcibly enroll in medical health clinics) more crazies who are mistreating Palestinians.
These types of crazy incidents increases the risk premium for investors/businesses in the occupied territories; disrupt private sector business development and reduce PA tax revenue.
Israelis need to do a better job handling this.
Posted by: anan at May 13, 2010 6:28 pm
Saw the clip. Craig, she strikes me as a US citizen . . . she speaks American with her body language.
Maybe she emotionally burst out an answer without intending to? Maybe she meant to say she was partly sympathetic to Hezbollah without saying that she supported that particular statement. She does seem young and naive.
Why did she say that praising Hamas could get her in trouble with homeland security? I don't follow.
Didn't the US government work with the Muslim Brotherhood (the Palestinian wing of which is called Hamas) to defeat the evil empire? Didn't Israel back Hamas in the 1970s? Doesn't the US still speak to the Islamic brotherhood in Egypt to this day? Don't the Israelis secretly talk with Hamas?
There is a big difference between praising a particular aspect of Hamas or a specific action of Hamas; and supporting Hamas.
Why did David Horowitz attack her clothes? What about her clothes were terrorist? I don't get it. In fact, I am kind of offended. I also felt he should have treated her with more heart, compassion, empathy, and respect; the way he would have treated his own daughter if she disagreed with him. When Jumanah Imad Albahri misspoke; he should have responded with sadness; not vindictive delight that he had won an argument.
Craig, western leftists can be irritating and angry . . . even scary [Nancy Grace/Amy Goodman/Anne Coulter style.] However, actual Arabs are much less irritating, even when you disagree with them. Is it because Arabs are more authentic and genuine? Is it because Arabs have more heart?
For some reason, Jumanah Imad Albahri strikes me as naive and manipulated; but possibly authentically well intentioned. Suspect that her leftist professors are substantially less sympathetic figures.
I know this is off topic. One reason some Palestinians [non Palestinian Arabs are a different matter; and bigotry plays a bigger role in understanding their sentiments towards Israel] are saddened by Israeli actions and make difficult to understand emotional statements is because Palestinian media covers many incidents like the below:
http://angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com/2010/05/fascist-settlers-torch-300-years-old.html
"A group of fundamentalist Israeli settlers torched on Wednesday at night an 11-Dunam olive orchard in Al Rababa valley, in Silwan, south of the Old City of Jerusalem.
The Maan news Agency reported that three olive trees, over 300 years old, were burnt down while dozens of trees were partially burnt.
The attack took place while thousands of Jewish settlers held a provocative procession in Silwan under extensive Israeli police presence. Yet, the police did not prevent the settlers from torching the orchard."
Since many friends of Israel and Israelis read this blog; could you suggest a way for Palestinians to report this crime to the police and get the perpetrators arrested? It just happened on Wednesday, so perhaps some of the people reading this blog could help.
Are there many lawyers (either Israeli or Palestinians) willing to work pro bono to achieve justice in cases like these?
As MJT has said; many of the settlers in the occupied territories are crazy. In my view they need to be admitted to medical health clinics so that they can be treated for their condition. Simultaneously, the PA and Israeli government need to hire many more public prosecutors; so that they can prosecute and imprison (or forcibly enroll in medical health clinics) more crazies who are mistreating Palestinians.
These types of crazy incidents increases the risk premium for investors/businesses in the occupied territories; disrupt private sector business development and reduce PA tax revenue.
Israelis need to do a better job handling this.
and its terms of use.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 6:29 pm
Abu guerilla,
Here is a discussion of the Muslim Students Association (MSA) from the Investigative Project (Steve Emerson) (boo! again).
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/31.pdf
Have you really been entirely unaware that the MSA is an offshoot and part of the Muslim Brotherhood?
Local chapters may not receive direct funding from MSA-national as they generally get their funding from student fees at each college or university, but they receive program guidance and, in the past, I saw that many MSA chapters' websites were similiar, as if based on a nationally distributed template. There are also annual national conferences where members of local chapters meet and learn from their uber-leaders from MSA-national.
Or do you believe that all of those identically named "MSA" chapters across the USA are completely independent, local organizations?
Posted by: del at May 13, 2010 6:32 pm
Here is a discussion of the Muslim Students Association (MSA) from the Investigative Project (Steve Emerson) (boo! again).
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/31.pdf
Have you really been entirely unaware that the MSA is an offshoot and part of the Muslim Brotherhood?
Local chapters may not receive direct funding from MSA-national as they generally get their funding from student fees at each college or university, but they receive program guidance and, in the past, I saw that many MSA chapters' websites were similiar, as if based on a nationally distributed template. There are also annual national conferences where members of local chapters meet and learn from their uber-leaders from MSA-national.
Or do you believe that all of those identically named "MSA" chapters across the USA are completely independent, local organizations?
If you want to see the trash Nasrallah spouts go to Memri. As for the Muslim Brotherhood, they are a danger to Egypt and are increasingly under the influence of Iran which must make Egyptian nationalists quite angry. Mubarak didn't want them seated for Obama's speach. Quds, Hizb'Allah and the Brotherhood have been involved in several plots against Egypt. I wonder if that bright teacher took the time to explain some Brotherhood history to her student. Saddam comes from the Grand Mufti line showing his indoctrinated Hitlerian approach to governing.
After all the greatest generation bled for, I find this insanity quite disturbing. Real Estate Abu? Israel turned a desert into something green. Muslim clerics claim the Great Temple is a hoax. I rather doubt the region will be worth much if it is covered in glass.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 13, 2010 6:45 pm
After all the greatest generation bled for, I find this insanity quite disturbing. Real Estate Abu? Israel turned a desert into something green. Muslim clerics claim the Great Temple is a hoax. I rather doubt the region will be worth much if it is covered in glass.
del: It certainly can't be Islam, the religion of peace.
Islam is neither the religion of peace, nor is it Nasrallah's ideology.
Nasrallah's ideology is Khomeinism, which is modern and new, though religiously based, sort of like Francoism in Spain, only more sinister.
Francoism was Catholic, but it would have been wrong to say Catholicism was Francoist.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 6:48 pm
Islam is neither the religion of peace, nor is it Nasrallah's ideology.
Nasrallah's ideology is Khomeinism, which is modern and new, though religiously based, sort of like Francoism in Spain, only more sinister.
Francoism was Catholic, but it would have been wrong to say Catholicism was Francoist.
Saw the clip. Craig, she strikes me as a US citizen . . . she speaks American with her body language.
Was that a crack about fat Americans!?
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 6:52 pm
Was that a crack about fat Americans!?
Abu Guerilla, did you hold the fort for Abu Muqawama a while ago?
If so, you rocked!
Guys, go easy on Abu Guerilla; he might be a friend of Abu Muqawama and a connoisseur of Beirut night life. :LOL:
Del, how does it matter if MSA and the Muslim Brotherhood might have had a connection in the distant past? Most colleague dudes do their own thing.
Abu Guerilla, I would like to be able to interact with Jumanah Imad Albahri and find out if she is naive, misinformed, and well intentioned. She didn't strike me as cold. But she was trying way too hard to be funny, cynical, and provocative. She would have been better off chilling.
Since you are a Lebanese "expert" and all :LOL: . . . could you share your thoughts on Nasrallah? Can the Najaf Marjeye, anti Khamenei Qom Marjeya, Iraq, Amal, moderate Shiites within Hezbollah, moderate nonaligned Shiites [not affiliated with either Amal or Hezbollah], moderate Sayyed Nasrallah? If not; can they empower new leaders with more constructive objectives?
If Iraq's foreign aid budget substantially exceeds Iran's [as is likely to happen within a few years], and the Lebanese Shiites and Lebanon became dependent on Iraqi largess; how would this transform Shiite politics in Lebanon?
Would it be fair to say that Nasrallah is partly the fruit of anti Shiite bigotry in Lebanon over the past millenia?
Posted by: anan at May 13, 2010 6:54 pm
If so, you rocked!
Guys, go easy on Abu Guerilla; he might be a friend of Abu Muqawama and a connoisseur of Beirut night life. :LOL:
Del, how does it matter if MSA and the Muslim Brotherhood might have had a connection in the distant past? Most colleague dudes do their own thing.
Abu Guerilla, I would like to be able to interact with Jumanah Imad Albahri and find out if she is naive, misinformed, and well intentioned. She didn't strike me as cold. But she was trying way too hard to be funny, cynical, and provocative. She would have been better off chilling.
Since you are a Lebanese "expert" and all :LOL: . . . could you share your thoughts on Nasrallah? Can the Najaf Marjeye, anti Khamenei Qom Marjeya, Iraq, Amal, moderate Shiites within Hezbollah, moderate nonaligned Shiites [not affiliated with either Amal or Hezbollah], moderate Sayyed Nasrallah? If not; can they empower new leaders with more constructive objectives?
If Iraq's foreign aid budget substantially exceeds Iran's [as is likely to happen within a few years], and the Lebanese Shiites and Lebanon became dependent on Iraqi largess; how would this transform Shiite politics in Lebanon?
Would it be fair to say that Nasrallah is partly the fruit of anti Shiite bigotry in Lebanon over the past millenia?
Anan: Why did she say that praising Hamas could get her in trouble with homeland security? I don't follow.
Because Hamas is a terrorist organization.
There is a big difference between praising a particular aspect of Hamas or a specific action of Hamas; and supporting Hamas.
Not really.
Anan: I also felt he should have treated her with more heart, compassion, empathy, and respect; the way he would have treated his own daughter if she disagreed with him
She just said she wanted him dead. Those would be fighting words if she were a man and they were in a bar.
When Jumanah Imad Albahri misspoke...
She didn't misspeak. She is a skinhead in a headscarf. That's obvious to almost everyone here.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 6:54 pm
Because Hamas is a terrorist organization.
There is a big difference between praising a particular aspect of Hamas or a specific action of Hamas; and supporting Hamas.
Not really.
Anan: I also felt he should have treated her with more heart, compassion, empathy, and respect; the way he would have treated his own daughter if she disagreed with him
She just said she wanted him dead. Those would be fighting words if she were a man and they were in a bar.
When Jumanah Imad Albahri misspoke...
She didn't misspeak. She is a skinhead in a headscarf. That's obvious to almost everyone here.
Anan: Would it be fair to say that Nasrallah is partly the fruit of anti Shiite bigotry in Lebanon over the past millenia?
South Lebanon's Shias hailed invading Israeli soldiers as liberators in 1982. So, no, that would not be my analysis of what motivates Hassan Nasrallah.
He is a product of the Iranian Revolution in 1979.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 6:56 pm
South Lebanon's Shias hailed invading Israeli soldiers as liberators in 1982. So, no, that would not be my analysis of what motivates Hassan Nasrallah.
He is a product of the Iranian Revolution in 1979.
Between Anan Abu Guerrila, I feel like I entered an insane asylum
Posted by: semite5000 at May 13, 2010 6:57 pm
"Was that a crack about fat Americans!?" :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: Its strange, I thought about that and then you said it. Craig, you are a hoot. Yes, we Americans are probably the fattest country on earth.
"Nasrallah's ideology is Khomeinism, which is modern and new, though religiously based, sort of like Francoism in Spain, only more sinister." True. Khamenei is discredited and increasingly illegitimate among the top global Shiite clergy. Does the rise of Iraq persuade Nasrallah to distance himself from Khamenei? Or does Nasrallah remain loyal to Khamenei to the end?
Posted by: anan at May 13, 2010 6:59 pm
"Nasrallah's ideology is Khomeinism, which is modern and new, though religiously based, sort of like Francoism in Spain, only more sinister." True. Khamenei is discredited and increasingly illegitimate among the top global Shiite clergy. Does the rise of Iraq persuade Nasrallah to distance himself from Khamenei? Or does Nasrallah remain loyal to Khamenei to the end?
Anan: Does the rise of Iraq persuade Nasrallah to distance himself from Khamenei?
Of course not. Khamenei is his patron and armorer. He's just a reactionary crackpot without Tehran's money and guns.
Iraq won't do jack squat for Nasrallah because Hezbollah in Iraq has done nothing but kill people.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 7:02 pm
Of course not. Khamenei is his patron and armorer. He's just a reactionary crackpot without Tehran's money and guns.
Iraq won't do jack squat for Nasrallah because Hezbollah in Iraq has done nothing but kill people.
sometimes a spade is just a spade.
Its so convenient and typical these days to justify or condone or substitute justification or rationalization for sheer hate, sheer madness.
Our Jewish friend, 'abu guerilla' (very cute), thinks that just because someone in Gaza has a tough life, this Western-educated (at UCSD) woman's agreement and approval of potential genocide is somehow morally acceptable or at lease 'understandable'.
Some things are not for sale, and some things cant be rationalized.
Posted by: Mike R at May 13, 2010 7:07 pm
Its so convenient and typical these days to justify or condone or substitute justification or rationalization for sheer hate, sheer madness.
Our Jewish friend, 'abu guerilla' (very cute), thinks that just because someone in Gaza has a tough life, this Western-educated (at UCSD) woman's agreement and approval of potential genocide is somehow morally acceptable or at lease 'understandable'.
Some things are not for sale, and some things cant be rationalized.
c'mon Anand,
Read this through slowly (2nd half is the English translation), and then tell me that assertion about the MSA and Muslim Brotherhood again ("Del, how does it matter if MSA and the Muslim Brotherhood might have had a connection in the distant past? Most colleague dudes do their own thing.") :
http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/ExplMemoGenStratGoal-trial2.pdf
Posted by: del at May 13, 2010 7:08 pm
Read this through slowly (2nd half is the English translation), and then tell me that assertion about the MSA and Muslim Brotherhood again ("Del, how does it matter if MSA and the Muslim Brotherhood might have had a connection in the distant past? Most colleague dudes do their own thing.") :
http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/ExplMemoGenStratGoal-trial2.pdf
If anyone is interested in connections between the Muslim Brotherhood, Sunni Terrorism inc. (ie., Saudi Arabia) and the MSA, they just have to spend 1 minute googling. Even Wikipedia has this:
Journalist Deborah Scroggins, in exploring how suspected al-Qaeda member Aafia Siddiqui became an Islamist extremist, wrote for Vogue that if Siddiqui "was drawn into terrorism, it may have been through the contacts and friendships she made in the early 1990s working for MIT's Muslim Students Association. Members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the world's oldest and biggest Islamist movement, established the first MSAs in the country... and the movement's ideology continued to influence the MSA long after that. At MIT, several of the MSA's most active members had fallen under the spell of Abdullah Azzam, a Muslim Brother who was Osama bin Laden's mentor.... [Azzam] had established the Al Kifah Refugee Center to function as its worldwide recruiting post, propaganda office, and fund-raising center for the mujahideen fighting in Afghanistan... It would become the nucleus of the al-Qaeda organization."[10]
Rutgers MSA co-founder Ramzi Yousef, a cousin of Siddiqui's second husband, is currently imprisoned for helping plan the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.[11]
Anwar al-Awlaki, accused of being an al-Qaeda member and who declared jihad against America in 2010, was President of the MSA at Colorado State University, which he graduated in 1994.[12]
Ali Asad Chandia, who was president of the MSA at Montgomery College from 1998 to 1999,[13] was convicted of providing material support to Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistani terrorist organization, and assisting the Virginia Jihad Network,[13] and sentenced to 15 years in prison.
Everyone who goes to MSA picnics and meetings is probably not a terrorist, just as everyone who hangs out with Gottis is not automatically a wiseguy. But the organization is definitely a criminal mob, and if an active member commits a crime, or doesn't pay his taxes, or refuses to pay parking tickets, etc., they could justifiably be prosecuted under RICO Statutes in the US.
Posted by: Mary Madigan at May 13, 2010 7:17 pm
Journalist Deborah Scroggins, in exploring how suspected al-Qaeda member Aafia Siddiqui became an Islamist extremist, wrote for Vogue that if Siddiqui "was drawn into terrorism, it may have been through the contacts and friendships she made in the early 1990s working for MIT's Muslim Students Association. Members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the world's oldest and biggest Islamist movement, established the first MSAs in the country... and the movement's ideology continued to influence the MSA long after that. At MIT, several of the MSA's most active members had fallen under the spell of Abdullah Azzam, a Muslim Brother who was Osama bin Laden's mentor.... [Azzam] had established the Al Kifah Refugee Center to function as its worldwide recruiting post, propaganda office, and fund-raising center for the mujahideen fighting in Afghanistan... It would become the nucleus of the al-Qaeda organization."[10]
Rutgers MSA co-founder Ramzi Yousef, a cousin of Siddiqui's second husband, is currently imprisoned for helping plan the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.[11]
Anwar al-Awlaki, accused of being an al-Qaeda member and who declared jihad against America in 2010, was President of the MSA at Colorado State University, which he graduated in 1994.[12]
Ali Asad Chandia, who was president of the MSA at Montgomery College from 1998 to 1999,[13] was convicted of providing material support to Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistani terrorist organization, and assisting the Virginia Jihad Network,[13] and sentenced to 15 years in prison.
Everyone who goes to MSA picnics and meetings is probably not a terrorist, just as everyone who hangs out with Gottis is not automatically a wiseguy. But the organization is definitely a criminal mob, and if an active member commits a crime, or doesn't pay his taxes, or refuses to pay parking tickets, etc., they could justifiably be prosecuted under RICO Statutes in the US.
When Jumanah Imad Albahri misspoke
anan, you're saying Horowitz asked her a question about herself, and she didn't know enough to answer correctly?
A frightfully delusional mindset it is, which can believe that.
Posted by: gus3 at May 13, 2010 7:47 pm
anan, you're saying Horowitz asked her a question about herself, and she didn't know enough to answer correctly?
A frightfully delusional mindset it is, which can believe that.
Could someone suggest a pro bono lawyer to sue the settlers responsible for burning these Palestinian olive trees?
http://angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com/2010/05/fascist-settlers-torch-300-years-old.html
Mary, America and MSA have connections going way back. The collaborated to bring down the evil empire. I don't mind MSA college students so much; most are well intentioned and harmless. The head of the snake is the Gulf royals and the Takfiri crazies they sponsor . . . plus the remaining boys from the good ol' ISI network.
"Iraq won't do jack squat for Nasrallah because Hezbollah in Iraq has done nothing but kill people." Iraqi Shiites and the Iraqi government are a wily bunch. Their ways are subtle; as would be their way to increase their influence in Lebanon at Khamenei's expense should they decide to do so. Iraq is waging a subtle competition for influence with Khamenei; and Iraq has placed bets on members of the Iranian opposition.
Know that Craig is going to flip! :-) But we shouldn't automatically assume that Hezbollah cannot change itself.
We shouldn't forget that Khomeini and Israel had a de facto tactical alliance between 1980-1988 against the evil Saddam [Happen to think both Israel and Khomeini were right to resist Saddam and help the Iraqi resistance.] Israel was a Khomeiniest after a fashion. Israel helped the Iranian backed Lebanese Shiites in 1982 as part of their broader tactical cooperation with Khomeini.
Israel has a history of good relations with Khomeinists. Trying to blow life into the dimmed embers of that relationship isn't treason; nor is it anti semetic, nor is it supporting terrorism.
How do we know that Jumanah Imad Albahri wasn't open to tactical cooperation between Khamenei, Israel and Hezbollah as long as this tactical cooperation advanced the interests of Hezbollah and Khamenei?
Abu Guerrilla, I don't think Jumanah Imad Albahri was an Iraqi American. If she was, she would have very quickly denounced Hamas for stupid pro Zarkawi statements. Iraqis hated Zarkawi.
Posted by: anan at May 13, 2010 7:52 pm
http://angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com/2010/05/fascist-settlers-torch-300-years-old.html
Mary, America and MSA have connections going way back. The collaborated to bring down the evil empire. I don't mind MSA college students so much; most are well intentioned and harmless. The head of the snake is the Gulf royals and the Takfiri crazies they sponsor . . . plus the remaining boys from the good ol' ISI network.
"Iraq won't do jack squat for Nasrallah because Hezbollah in Iraq has done nothing but kill people." Iraqi Shiites and the Iraqi government are a wily bunch. Their ways are subtle; as would be their way to increase their influence in Lebanon at Khamenei's expense should they decide to do so. Iraq is waging a subtle competition for influence with Khamenei; and Iraq has placed bets on members of the Iranian opposition.
Know that Craig is going to flip! :-) But we shouldn't automatically assume that Hezbollah cannot change itself.
We shouldn't forget that Khomeini and Israel had a de facto tactical alliance between 1980-1988 against the evil Saddam [Happen to think both Israel and Khomeini were right to resist Saddam and help the Iraqi resistance.] Israel was a Khomeiniest after a fashion. Israel helped the Iranian backed Lebanese Shiites in 1982 as part of their broader tactical cooperation with Khomeini.
Israel has a history of good relations with Khomeinists. Trying to blow life into the dimmed embers of that relationship isn't treason; nor is it anti semetic, nor is it supporting terrorism.
How do we know that Jumanah Imad Albahri wasn't open to tactical cooperation between Khamenei, Israel and Hezbollah as long as this tactical cooperation advanced the interests of Hezbollah and Khamenei?
Abu Guerrilla, I don't think Jumanah Imad Albahri was an Iraqi American. If she was, she would have very quickly denounced Hamas for stupid pro Zarkawi statements. Iraqis hated Zarkawi.
Anan: Israel has a history of good relations with Khomeinists.
Is the sky orange where you live?
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 13, 2010 8:00 pm
Is the sky orange where you live?
"why a faculty member is defending her."
Was it (professor) Ward Churchill who called 9/11 victims "little Eichmanns"? Until American academia has the spine to train critical thinkers and live with the results it won't get better. Odds currently, my opinion? Slim to none.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 8:14 pm
Was it (professor) Ward Churchill who called 9/11 victims "little Eichmanns"? Until American academia has the spine to train critical thinkers and live with the results it won't get better. Odds currently, my opinion? Slim to none.
Anan,
Well, who knows what country she is from--Arabia?
I never held down the fort for Muqawama; though I've been around Lebanon a few times.
www.bloggingthecasbah.com -- is where I'm @.
It's a little more chill than Totten's blog--no brashness, such as name calling and all-encompassing labels; moral outrages, etc.
Though perhaps I should try it! It seems to get the hits!
Isn't Israel-Palestine at root a real estate issue?
And anyone who says the Jews made the dessert bloom has never traveled the Levant. Though they've done some great, green things with Israel.
Posted by: Abu Guerrilla at May 13, 2010 8:21 pm
Well, who knows what country she is from--Arabia?
I never held down the fort for Muqawama; though I've been around Lebanon a few times.
www.bloggingthecasbah.com -- is where I'm @.
It's a little more chill than Totten's blog--no brashness, such as name calling and all-encompassing labels; moral outrages, etc.
Though perhaps I should try it! It seems to get the hits!
Isn't Israel-Palestine at root a real estate issue?
And anyone who says the Jews made the dessert bloom has never traveled the Levant. Though they've done some great, green things with Israel.
I think that each of you barbing back and forth here would benefit from a close reading of any random sampling on the website "Campus Watch"...which is an offshoot (no pun intended) of "The Middle East Forum".
This provocative girl in the audience described here is an example of a tactic being exquisitely well practiced by the Islamist factions here in America to utilize all possible "up front" methods to make their inroads here in our country. By "inroads" I mean their camel's nose under your tent.
Our cherished open freedoms are very being used most skillfully against us. Another term coined for this approach is "lawfare".
Go ahead, listen to these well trained audience plants, listen carefully, with an ear to just why they are in our university forums with young students eager for new ideas, but try to remember that their agenda is your ultimate subjugation.
Make no mistake about that.
Posted by: Hrothgar at May 13, 2010 8:30 pm
This provocative girl in the audience described here is an example of a tactic being exquisitely well practiced by the Islamist factions here in America to utilize all possible "up front" methods to make their inroads here in our country. By "inroads" I mean their camel's nose under your tent.
Our cherished open freedoms are very being used most skillfully against us. Another term coined for this approach is "lawfare".
Go ahead, listen to these well trained audience plants, listen carefully, with an ear to just why they are in our university forums with young students eager for new ideas, but try to remember that their agenda is your ultimate subjugation.
Make no mistake about that.
Paul S, many leftist academics have a permutations of the "we are all sinners" catholic guilt complex. They think that they themselves and their people are guilty for everything in the universe; even thought they don't understand exactly how. They feel extremely guilty and sad at the evil they have done.
Craig, would like your perspective on this observation about Western academic leftists. This observation deals more with economics focused western leftists . . . who probably outnumber the politically focused western leftists.
Do many western leftists see the economic rise of Asia (and Chile and Brazil) as a great threat to their leftist ideology? Do they hate the fact that a majority of the richest people on earth are no longer westerners? Do they hate the fact that many Asian countries and Chile and Brazil are more free market and more pro business than the west is? Do they hate the fact that global power and influence is shifting to Asia and Chile/Brazil? How much of leftism is really veiled bigotry againt darkies.
Am I paranoid; or am I on to something? I dare say that many Asians feel western leftists are bigoted against darkies.
In fact; I would be very surprised if more people from developing nations didn't think that western leftists were more racist than American conservatives. The quintessential "Ugly American" stereotype is partly a stereotype about American leftists.
When I hear bigotry expressed against multinational companies that are mostly owned and that conduct most of their business outside the "West," am I right to suspect that racism might partly be at play?
When I hear anti IMF rhetoric; I don't think it comes from anti Americanism or anti Westernism.
It is widely known that the US only contributes 17% of the IMF's capital and voting shares. The IMF is mostly funded and most of its voting shares are cast by "darkies."
Western leftists railing against the IMF, WTO, and other international institutions are in my view; partly motivated by racism . . . and fear about the rise of free market pro business emerging powers.
What are everyone's thoughts?
Posted by: anan at May 13, 2010 8:34 pm
Craig, would like your perspective on this observation about Western academic leftists. This observation deals more with economics focused western leftists . . . who probably outnumber the politically focused western leftists.
Do many western leftists see the economic rise of Asia (and Chile and Brazil) as a great threat to their leftist ideology? Do they hate the fact that a majority of the richest people on earth are no longer westerners? Do they hate the fact that many Asian countries and Chile and Brazil are more free market and more pro business than the west is? Do they hate the fact that global power and influence is shifting to Asia and Chile/Brazil? How much of leftism is really veiled bigotry againt darkies.
Am I paranoid; or am I on to something? I dare say that many Asians feel western leftists are bigoted against darkies.
In fact; I would be very surprised if more people from developing nations didn't think that western leftists were more racist than American conservatives. The quintessential "Ugly American" stereotype is partly a stereotype about American leftists.
When I hear bigotry expressed against multinational companies that are mostly owned and that conduct most of their business outside the "West," am I right to suspect that racism might partly be at play?
When I hear anti IMF rhetoric; I don't think it comes from anti Americanism or anti Westernism.
It is widely known that the US only contributes 17% of the IMF's capital and voting shares. The IMF is mostly funded and most of its voting shares are cast by "darkies."
Western leftists railing against the IMF, WTO, and other international institutions are in my view; partly motivated by racism . . . and fear about the rise of free market pro business emerging powers.
What are everyone's thoughts?
I don't give a crap what academics feel guilty about; too many indoctrinate, not educate.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 8:40 pm
And if I'm a parent I'm not paying good money for someone's beliefs.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 8:45 pm
Mary, America and MSA have connections going way back
The Mexican government and the Mexican drug gangs have connections that go way back. Sometimes, the alliance helped the government. Sometimes, it didn't.
If we were connected to the Gotti/Gambino clan the way the Mexican authorities were connected to the drug gangs, the Gambinos would be running the country.
If we were working with the Saudi supported Muslim brotherhood mob the way the Mexican government was connected to their drug gangs, we'd all be in big trouble. Hmmm..
Posted by: Mary Madigan at May 13, 2010 8:50 pm
The Mexican government and the Mexican drug gangs have connections that go way back. Sometimes, the alliance helped the government. Sometimes, it didn't.
If we were connected to the Gotti/Gambino clan the way the Mexican authorities were connected to the drug gangs, the Gambinos would be running the country.
If we were working with the Saudi supported Muslim brotherhood mob the way the Mexican government was connected to their drug gangs, we'd all be in big trouble. Hmmm..
Abu Guerrilla: "This conflict isn't about Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. It is about real estate."
"It is about real estate." - agree.
"This conflict isn't about Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc." - disagree.
In reality it is both. Pan-Arab idea was to gain real estate and add to Arab dominance in the Middle East. When it did not pan out (pardon the pan) Arabs decided to gain more support by introducing Muslim element to it. Today it became run-away train, which hurts them more than it hurts Jews, but Arabs cannot afford to stop anymore.
Jewish idea was to restore once lost country and at least in 1947 borders and even without Jerusalem. Once Jews realized they can do better ambitions got bigger.
Posted by: leo at May 13, 2010 9:02 pm
"It is about real estate." - agree.
"This conflict isn't about Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc." - disagree.
In reality it is both. Pan-Arab idea was to gain real estate and add to Arab dominance in the Middle East. When it did not pan out (pardon the pan) Arabs decided to gain more support by introducing Muslim element to it. Today it became run-away train, which hurts them more than it hurts Jews, but Arabs cannot afford to stop anymore.
Jewish idea was to restore once lost country and at least in 1947 borders and even without Jerusalem. Once Jews realized they can do better ambitions got bigger.
I guess the Catholic teacher hasn't figured out that after the jihadis are done with the Jews they're coming for her kind next.
In fairness to the teacher, I think she may have been trying to create some space for the student, to allow her room to back out of the corner she put herself in so publicly. Sometimes when you provide some cover for a person who's gotten themselves into intellectually or morally untenable territory, you give them a chance to step back over the line where they should and hopefully really want to be, especially if that person is young and perhaps not particularly wise or experienced.
Posted by: Sally at May 13, 2010 9:20 pm
In fairness to the teacher, I think she may have been trying to create some space for the student, to allow her room to back out of the corner she put herself in so publicly. Sometimes when you provide some cover for a person who's gotten themselves into intellectually or morally untenable territory, you give them a chance to step back over the line where they should and hopefully really want to be, especially if that person is young and perhaps not particularly wise or experienced.
Anand,
But we shouldn't automatically assume that Hezbollah cannot change itself.
I don't assume that. Nor do I care if HA changes itself. Hezbollah is a terrorist group that has murdered hundreds of Americans, been engaged in hostage taking of Americans, has tortured American captives to death, has hijacked American passenger planes, and so on. The HA leadership cannot be allowed to walk away from those crimes. We need to hunt the people responsible to the ends of the earth, just like we do with AQ.
Craig, would like your perspective on this observation about Western academic leftists.
You don't already know my opinions? :)
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 9:22 pm
But we shouldn't automatically assume that Hezbollah cannot change itself.
I don't assume that. Nor do I care if HA changes itself. Hezbollah is a terrorist group that has murdered hundreds of Americans, been engaged in hostage taking of Americans, has tortured American captives to death, has hijacked American passenger planes, and so on. The HA leadership cannot be allowed to walk away from those crimes. We need to hunt the people responsible to the ends of the earth, just like we do with AQ.
Craig, would like your perspective on this observation about Western academic leftists.
You don't already know my opinions? :)
Abu Guerrilla: "And anyone who says the Jews made the dessert bloom has never traveled the Levant."
I had no idea Lebanon was a desert.
Posted by: leo at May 13, 2010 9:29 pm
I had no idea Lebanon was a desert.
I had no idea Lebanon was a desert.
Not yet, but it will be if Ahmadinejad has his way.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Not yet, but it will be if Ahmadinejad has his way.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by John Marzan. John Marzan said: "For it." http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/05/a-most-disturbing-moment-of-clarity.php [...]
Posted by: Tweets that mention Michael J. Totten -- Topsy.com at May 13, 2010 9:35 pm
Anand, any chance you can contact Jumanah Imad Albahri and ask her opinions about Israeli "apartheid"? I'd be interested to hear what somebody who supports genocide has to say about apartheid. It is very important to give this naive and innocently misguided young students a fair hearing, after all!
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 9:39 pm
Sally,
Sheltering a young person from the consequences of owning their actions does them a disservice, because reality outside academia won't be so kind.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 9:51 pm
Sheltering a young person from the consequences of owning their actions does them a disservice, because reality outside academia won't be so kind.
I think she may have been trying to create some space for the student, to allow her room to back out of the corner she put herself in so publicly.
She publicly revealed her anti-Semitism. Let her be publicly humiliated.
Nobody in the USA is immune from criticism.
Posted by: gus3 at May 13, 2010 10:03 pm
She publicly revealed her anti-Semitism. Let her be publicly humiliated.
Nobody in the USA is immune from criticism.
Craig, some MSA types are Sunni Arab anti Shiite bigots . . . brainwashed by Saudi/Egyptian/Syrian propaganda . . . and a hint of Takfiri madness.
Some MSA morons supported violent attacks against the Iraqi Army, Iraqi Police, and the sole legitimate democratically elected Iraqi Government. Why am I saying "supported"? Some MSA mentally deficient specimen still support violent attacks against the ISF and GoI.
So no, I don't think I want to contact Jumanah Imad Albahri, in case she isn't a "naive and innocently misguided young student" that I think she might be.
Any ideas on lawyers who can help with the olive trees that were destroyed?
Any thoughts on whether Western leftists are bigoted against "darkies" from developing countries because of jealousy regarding developing country economic success . . . and out of horror that developing country people are proudly more free market and pro business than Westerners?
For that matter, how much of the anger in the Arab world and Pakistan is because of jealousy regarding Asian economic success; and their conspiracy theories that the only reason they aren't more successful is because of a global conspiracy involving the Jews and Jewish collaborators (Christians, Sufis, Shiites, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Communists)?
Posted by: anan at May 13, 2010 10:07 pm
Some MSA morons supported violent attacks against the Iraqi Army, Iraqi Police, and the sole legitimate democratically elected Iraqi Government. Why am I saying "supported"? Some MSA mentally deficient specimen still support violent attacks against the ISF and GoI.
So no, I don't think I want to contact Jumanah Imad Albahri, in case she isn't a "naive and innocently misguided young student" that I think she might be.
Any ideas on lawyers who can help with the olive trees that were destroyed?
Any thoughts on whether Western leftists are bigoted against "darkies" from developing countries because of jealousy regarding developing country economic success . . . and out of horror that developing country people are proudly more free market and pro business than Westerners?
For that matter, how much of the anger in the Arab world and Pakistan is because of jealousy regarding Asian economic success; and their conspiracy theories that the only reason they aren't more successful is because of a global conspiracy involving the Jews and Jewish collaborators (Christians, Sufis, Shiites, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Communists)?
"Nobody in the USA is immune from criticism."
Oh, how I wish that were true, Gus. But I spent too many years inside academia. In San Francisco.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:14 pm
Oh, how I wish that were true, Gus. But I spent too many years inside academia. In San Francisco.
"Sheltering a young person from the consequences of owning their actions does them a disservice, because reality outside academia won't be so kind.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 9:51 pm"
I wonder if we're living in the same country because reality outside of academia isn't really all that harsh, especially when it comes to young people who say and do all sorts of dumb things and they're not pilloried in the public square for it. The one thing that's for sure is that if she's hung out to dry and forced to stay where so many want to put her, she's not coming back over to this side.
She probably just wants to get through her final exams and find a job for the summer. Maybe everyone should move on to a more worthy target.
Posted by: Sally at May 13, 2010 10:24 pm
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 9:51 pm"
I wonder if we're living in the same country because reality outside of academia isn't really all that harsh, especially when it comes to young people who say and do all sorts of dumb things and they're not pilloried in the public square for it. The one thing that's for sure is that if she's hung out to dry and forced to stay where so many want to put her, she's not coming back over to this side.
She probably just wants to get through her final exams and find a job for the summer. Maybe everyone should move on to a more worthy target.
Maybe she should think before she speaks.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:30 pm
"reality outside of academia isn't really all that harsh"
I'll assume you aren't a small business owner.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:32 pm
I'll assume you aren't a small business owner.
This is too much like responding to anan. Nuff.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:33 pm
Anand,
Any thoughts on whether Western leftists are bigoted against "darkies" from developing countries because of jealousy regarding developing country economic success . . . and out of horror that developing country people are proudly more free market and pro business than Westerners?
I'm no expert on Western leftists, anand. I try to stay as far away from them as possible. However, my read on them is that they hate themselves and their own countries first and foremost. And if I'm right about that, that would make it pretty unlikely they are deliberately being bigots. However, I do think they view everyone who isn't just like them with a substantial amount of condescension.
Sally,
I wonder if we're living in the same country because reality outside of academia isn't really all that harsh...
Yes it is :)
...especially when it comes to young people who say and do all sorts of dumb things and they're not pilloried in the public square for it.
Right. They are just fired from their jobs on the basis of civil rights violations or making bigoted comments about their co-workers. And then they find themselves unable to find a new job.
You are aware that if she made such a statement in any private sector company in America she would be immediately terminated, right?
The one thing that's for sure is that if she's hung out to dry and forced to stay where so many want to put her, she's not coming back over to this side.
Coming back? You assume she was on "this" side at some point in the past?
She probably just wants to get through her final exams and find a job for the summer.
I doubt that very much. Activists tend to be fanatics, and they put their causes first and foremost.
Maybe everyone should move on to a more worthy target.
I think she is a pretty worthy target. I'm sill fuming about all those "death to jews" protests at US campuses during the Gaza war in 2008. If US universities won't clean house on their own, they need to be encouraged by outsiders to clean house. The more vigorous that encouragement is, the better. Maybe if she's expelled she can go enroll in a college in Europe or something, where she'd fit in better.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 10:40 pm
Any thoughts on whether Western leftists are bigoted against "darkies" from developing countries because of jealousy regarding developing country economic success . . . and out of horror that developing country people are proudly more free market and pro business than Westerners?
I'm no expert on Western leftists, anand. I try to stay as far away from them as possible. However, my read on them is that they hate themselves and their own countries first and foremost. And if I'm right about that, that would make it pretty unlikely they are deliberately being bigots. However, I do think they view everyone who isn't just like them with a substantial amount of condescension.
Sally,
I wonder if we're living in the same country because reality outside of academia isn't really all that harsh...
Yes it is :)
...especially when it comes to young people who say and do all sorts of dumb things and they're not pilloried in the public square for it.
Right. They are just fired from their jobs on the basis of civil rights violations or making bigoted comments about their co-workers. And then they find themselves unable to find a new job.
You are aware that if she made such a statement in any private sector company in America she would be immediately terminated, right?
The one thing that's for sure is that if she's hung out to dry and forced to stay where so many want to put her, she's not coming back over to this side.
Coming back? You assume she was on "this" side at some point in the past?
She probably just wants to get through her final exams and find a job for the summer.
I doubt that very much. Activists tend to be fanatics, and they put their causes first and foremost.
Maybe everyone should move on to a more worthy target.
I think she is a pretty worthy target. I'm sill fuming about all those "death to jews" protests at US campuses during the Gaza war in 2008. If US universities won't clean house on their own, they need to be encouraged by outsiders to clean house. The more vigorous that encouragement is, the better. Maybe if she's expelled she can go enroll in a college in Europe or something, where she'd fit in better.
Maybe she should think before she speaks.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:30 pm"
I remember a discussion in High School Civics class (do they even teach that anymore) back in the early 70s when the teacher was asking us what we all thought about the recently revealed "secret" bombing of Cambodia by Nixon. Well I had a brother serving in Vietnam at the time and I wanted him to come home safely and I piped up quickly that I thought it was great and that we should bomb even more, we should bomb everything and kill everyone so we would win. I had absolutely no idea what I was talking about and I'm sure I sounded like an idiot but the teacher just nodded and moved on to the next inane comment from someone else.
Not exactly the same thing but I'm sure we've all had moments in the classroom when we said something stupid or even faintly horrifying (as my bloodthirsty desire to kill every Cambodian on the planet must have sounded). Only we're not televised doing it.
Posted by: Sally at May 13, 2010 10:41 pm
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:30 pm"
I remember a discussion in High School Civics class (do they even teach that anymore) back in the early 70s when the teacher was asking us what we all thought about the recently revealed "secret" bombing of Cambodia by Nixon. Well I had a brother serving in Vietnam at the time and I wanted him to come home safely and I piped up quickly that I thought it was great and that we should bomb even more, we should bomb everything and kill everyone so we would win. I had absolutely no idea what I was talking about and I'm sure I sounded like an idiot but the teacher just nodded and moved on to the next inane comment from someone else.
Not exactly the same thing but I'm sure we've all had moments in the classroom when we said something stupid or even faintly horrifying (as my bloodthirsty desire to kill every Cambodian on the planet must have sounded). Only we're not televised doing it.
Craig,
Preachin' to the deaf, man. We're on different mental planets.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 10:42 pm
Preachin' to the deaf, man. We're on different mental planets.
Why any of you folks, whose knowledge and experience I've learned so much from, expend your energy debating with belief, just baffles me.
Good night.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 13, 2010 11:09 pm
Good night.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8679203.stm
A serious disease is affecting opium poppies in Afghanistan, Antonio Maria Costa, the head of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) has said.
Mr Costa told the BBC that this year's opium production could be reduced by a quarter, compared with last year.
Oh, that's bad news for crack-smoking terrorist supporting genocide advocating hijabis. No wonder she was in such a foul mood.
Preachin' to the deaf, man. We're on different mental planets.
Maybe so, Paul, but I'm gonna give it another shot anyway.
Sally,
Not exactly the same thing but I'm sure we've all had moments in the classroom when we said something stupid or even faintly horrifying (as my bloodthirsty desire to kill every Cambodian on the planet must have sounded).
I haven't ever done that in a classroom, no. I had a 6th grade math teacher who horrified the whole class with his Vietnam war stories, though. But every knew he was a whack job because he was a vet so nobody said anything.
Only we're not televised doing it.
That's an important point. And the fact that employers routinely "Google" prospective employees these days is an important point, too. I believe school administrators have failed this student. She is for all intents and purposes unemployable now, unless she can get a job advocating jihad someplace. Since the job of the university is to prepare her for the workplace, that's EPIC FAIL, as the kids say these days. If they knew how bad she was infected with the jihad virus they should have excluded her from this televised event, or at least made sure she didn't get the microphone. If they didn't know, they should have.
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 11:15 pm
A serious disease is affecting opium poppies in Afghanistan, Antonio Maria Costa, the head of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) has said.
Mr Costa told the BBC that this year's opium production could be reduced by a quarter, compared with last year.
Oh, that's bad news for crack-smoking terrorist supporting genocide advocating hijabis. No wonder she was in such a foul mood.
Preachin' to the deaf, man. We're on different mental planets.
Maybe so, Paul, but I'm gonna give it another shot anyway.
Sally,
Not exactly the same thing but I'm sure we've all had moments in the classroom when we said something stupid or even faintly horrifying (as my bloodthirsty desire to kill every Cambodian on the planet must have sounded).
I haven't ever done that in a classroom, no. I had a 6th grade math teacher who horrified the whole class with his Vietnam war stories, though. But every knew he was a whack job because he was a vet so nobody said anything.
Only we're not televised doing it.
That's an important point. And the fact that employers routinely "Google" prospective employees these days is an important point, too. I believe school administrators have failed this student. She is for all intents and purposes unemployable now, unless she can get a job advocating jihad someplace. Since the job of the university is to prepare her for the workplace, that's EPIC FAIL, as the kids say these days. If they knew how bad she was infected with the jihad virus they should have excluded her from this televised event, or at least made sure she didn't get the microphone. If they didn't know, they should have.
Once again in this thread anand does what he does best - apologize for and advocate the annihilation of Jews. The only difference is this time he has a fellow degenerate scumbag joining him, one claiming to be Jewish himself. He may actually be - we know there are self-loathers out there - but as a fanatic antisemite, there is a good chance he is simply lying.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 13, 2010 11:26 pm
http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2010-05-07/local-county-news/ucsd-student-senate-tables-israel-divestment-resolution-heated-debate
“How dare you silence us? Free, free Palestine! From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!” shouted the UC San Diego [UCSD] divestment crowd as they stormed out of the student senate on Wednesday, May 5, after their divestment bill was rejected yet again.
Anyone know if Jumanah Imad Albahri was one of those protesters last week? Should the student senate be hearing from people who claim they want divestment, when they actually want genocide?
Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 11:44 pm
“How dare you silence us? Free, free Palestine! From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!” shouted the UC San Diego [UCSD] divestment crowd as they stormed out of the student senate on Wednesday, May 5, after their divestment bill was rejected yet again.
Anyone know if Jumanah Imad Albahri was one of those protesters last week? Should the student senate be hearing from people who claim they want divestment, when they actually want genocide?
abu bumfuck, Hezbollah bombed a Jewish community center in *Argentina* - that's in the western hemisphere in the likely case you're too stupid to figure it out - killing nearly 100 people. Of course for you and anand that's not a bug, it's a feature.
"What are everyone's thoughts?"
That you and "abu guerilla" are blithering idiots and malevolently antisemitic. No doubt abu will protest, "How can you say that, I'm a Joooo". My response is 1) so what and 2) you're probably lying anyway.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 14, 2010 12:56 am
"What are everyone's thoughts?"
That you and "abu guerilla" are blithering idiots and malevolently antisemitic. No doubt abu will protest, "How can you say that, I'm a Joooo". My response is 1) so what and 2) you're probably lying anyway.
Another sad reminder...
Posted by: Lebo at May 14, 2010 2:16 am
Frankly, I do not understand why everybody is concentrating so much on this girl. She was raised to hate and if somebody was not sure yet that culture of hate exists now you know it. Chances are it will not go farther than herself and her children will no longer be angry, hateful Palestinians from Iraq or whatever, but happy, well-rounded Americans.
I am much more concerned with her apologist teacher who does not really have skin in the game. She demonstrated absolute lock of moral judgment, which eventually may lead to much worst. I wonder how many people like her are in US.
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 4:39 am
I am much more concerned with her apologist teacher who does not really have skin in the game. She demonstrated absolute lock of moral judgment, which eventually may lead to much worst. I wonder how many people like her are in US.
"abu bumfuck"
I did not even read the signature I knew it was you, Gary. You bring life to every conversation and from the very first word too.
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 5:26 am
I did not even read the signature I knew it was you, Gary. You bring life to every conversation and from the very first word too.
I agree with Leo above--the real problem might not be the girl (who seems to me to be more symptom than an agent herself, and who very well may have been lashing out because Horowitz is a bigot who has simply replaced blacks with Muslims as his current obsession), but the teacher. Why the hell was she so quick to defend the indefensible? Why was her first reaction to her student's chilling call for genocide not, say, at the very least, to ask her to rethink what she said? It's one thing to say "I think she was angry and felt threatened by a professional provacateur, and in the heat of the moment she took the bait and said something I hope she didn't mean."
Now...maybe the student DID mean it, and would have said the same thing regardless of which Jewish person asked her, regardless of which context the exchange occured in. Even so, then you just have a young, educated Muslim girl who is also a hateful bigot. Unfortunately, we know that such people exist. What I would want to know is--what would the teacher's reaction have been THEN? Would she still rush to defend the girl's character? Would she be so quick? And, ultimately, does it matter? Shouldn't the first reaction no matter what be "My student--who has always seemed to be a reasonable and decent person--surprised and disappointed me greatly by making such a hateful and actually evil statement. I hope she thinks about what she said and reconsiders her comments, and reevaluates her own beliefs as well."
Posted by: Kirk Johnson at May 14, 2010 6:26 am
Now...maybe the student DID mean it, and would have said the same thing regardless of which Jewish person asked her, regardless of which context the exchange occured in. Even so, then you just have a young, educated Muslim girl who is also a hateful bigot. Unfortunately, we know that such people exist. What I would want to know is--what would the teacher's reaction have been THEN? Would she still rush to defend the girl's character? Would she be so quick? And, ultimately, does it matter? Shouldn't the first reaction no matter what be "My student--who has always seemed to be a reasonable and decent person--surprised and disappointed me greatly by making such a hateful and actually evil statement. I hope she thinks about what she said and reconsiders her comments, and reevaluates her own beliefs as well."
What strikes me about her response is how confrontational it was (obviously!). But, more specifically, what I mean is my impression of her is much less that she heard and considered the facts and consequences of Horowitz' question, but more she just wanted to say *fuck you, buddy*.
I'm not defending or apologizing for her. She's brainless, and the consequence is essentially the same. I still find her comment beyond disgusting, and it's clear she's a well-heeled anti-semite.
Her hatred (and foolishness) is evident. She strikes me like so many rebellious young intellectuals, with absolutely no wisdom, plenty of pent up hatred, and lots undeserved self-importance. She exhibits no ability even to comprehend other perspectives, let alone converse with them.
Posted by: Matt Snyder at May 14, 2010 6:58 am
I'm not defending or apologizing for her. She's brainless, and the consequence is essentially the same. I still find her comment beyond disgusting, and it's clear she's a well-heeled anti-semite.
Her hatred (and foolishness) is evident. She strikes me like so many rebellious young intellectuals, with absolutely no wisdom, plenty of pent up hatred, and lots undeserved self-importance. She exhibits no ability even to comprehend other perspectives, let alone converse with them.
This person who in no uncertain terms favours genocide against Jews, something advocated by the groups she supports, is to be condemned unreservedly, not applauded, excused or "saved".
BLACK IS BLACK, NOT WHITE OR GREY!
Worse yet the "professor" who comes to her aid spouting sophistry and trying to turn black into white, blaming the victim of her hatred illustrates perfectly the problem in the liberal arts attitude of universities: think with your heart not with your head, avoid critical thinking and any analysis. Don't consult anything written by dead white males especially if they're Jews and its OK to lie and deceive, fabricate BS if you feel aggrieved.
This is a pretty sickening scenario but then we have the results like Abu Tortilla and Anand.
Anand, who lives in a parallel universe and should call himself Abu Irrelevancies displays his long-winded nonsense ad nauseum.
But Abu Meshuge has been to the West Bank of the Jordan River! Whoop de doo!!
What did you do there, Abu, throw rocks at "other" Jews; protest at the fence shouting "Let the suicide-bombers through, Death to the Jews (excluding yourself, of course)!"
And then you try to justify genocidal comments and in a bantering pseudo-friendly way.
Perhaps you should go back there and try invest in Palestinian start-up companies to improve the economic conditions and general welfare.
But of course that would never do...it might lead to real peace instead of the genocidal destruction of Israel that you and your fellow travelers really espouse.
Posted by: jb at May 14, 2010 7:10 am
BLACK IS BLACK, NOT WHITE OR GREY!
Worse yet the "professor" who comes to her aid spouting sophistry and trying to turn black into white, blaming the victim of her hatred illustrates perfectly the problem in the liberal arts attitude of universities: think with your heart not with your head, avoid critical thinking and any analysis. Don't consult anything written by dead white males especially if they're Jews and its OK to lie and deceive, fabricate BS if you feel aggrieved.
This is a pretty sickening scenario but then we have the results like Abu Tortilla and Anand.
Anand, who lives in a parallel universe and should call himself Abu Irrelevancies displays his long-winded nonsense ad nauseum.
But Abu Meshuge has been to the West Bank of the Jordan River! Whoop de doo!!
What did you do there, Abu, throw rocks at "other" Jews; protest at the fence shouting "Let the suicide-bombers through, Death to the Jews (excluding yourself, of course)!"
And then you try to justify genocidal comments and in a bantering pseudo-friendly way.
Perhaps you should go back there and try invest in Palestinian start-up companies to improve the economic conditions and general welfare.
But of course that would never do...it might lead to real peace instead of the genocidal destruction of Israel that you and your fellow travelers really espouse.
I can't help but to agree with Gary Rosen that Anan is a little bit more than a naive commentator. Or maybe a lot more. He's clearly not mentally retarded, because he's able to at least express his deranged views via the written world. But there's something missing.
I always read comments without scrolling down to see who wrote them, because I like to interpret the message without being cued by the messenger. But it's always apparent when the author is Anan. The strange thing is that every once in awhile he makes sense, but then strays into la-la-land.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 7:40 am
I always read comments without scrolling down to see who wrote them, because I like to interpret the message without being cued by the messenger. But it's always apparent when the author is Anan. The strange thing is that every once in awhile he makes sense, but then strays into la-la-land.
Abu Gorilla:
Anan,
Well, who knows what country she is from--Arabia?
There is no country in the world called Arabia. And we're supposed to take you seriously about Middle East issues?
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 7:45 am
Anan,
Well, who knows what country she is from--Arabia?
There is no country in the world called Arabia. And we're supposed to take you seriously about Middle East issues?
In my home town Milwaukee, a student from the MSA punched a Jewish student in the face at the Israel Independence Day celebration a few weeks ago. When I was an undergraduate I can confirm that MSA was far more active in comparing Jews to Nazis and physically intimidating Jewish students than actually engaging in intellectual discourse. If the MSA were a white supremacist group, and if Jewish students were African-American, the MSA would be banned.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 7:49 am
"In my home town Milwaukee, a student from the MSA punched a Jewish student in the face at the Israel Independence Day celebration a few weeks ago."
If Jewish student did not punch back he will be punched more and more and deservedly so.
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 8:18 am
If Jewish student did not punch back he will be punched more and more and deservedly so.
The young lady is Jack Nicholson on the witness stand in the movie A Few Good Men. Horowitz like Tom Cruise, new that they really wanted to ans. the Question. As Nicholson, the young lady had her YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH moment
Posted by: Bill at May 14, 2010 8:41 am
semite5000, I am saddened to hear that. Was the MSA student charged with assault?
"When I was an undergraduate I can confirm that MSA was far more active in comparing Jews to Nazis and physically intimidating Jewish students than actually engaging in intellectual discourse." Interesting, I wasn't aware of MSA when I was in college.
Were the MSA you met bigoted Sunni extremists? Were they anti Shiite and anti Sufi? What were their positions in Chechnya, Kashmir, East Timur, the Taliban, Yemenese civil war, and other global issues? Were many MSA religious? Were they interested in theological discussions and interfaith discussions? [I am.]
I would also be interested in anecdotes regarding how MSA members come down on the nuances. For example; what they think about Hamas versus Fatah versus Mustafa Barghouti.
Are the MSA a diverse group with members from many countries [such as India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan]?
Sorry about the stream of questions. Has anyone here had extensive dealings with MSA students?
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 9:08 am
"When I was an undergraduate I can confirm that MSA was far more active in comparing Jews to Nazis and physically intimidating Jewish students than actually engaging in intellectual discourse." Interesting, I wasn't aware of MSA when I was in college.
Were the MSA you met bigoted Sunni extremists? Were they anti Shiite and anti Sufi? What were their positions in Chechnya, Kashmir, East Timur, the Taliban, Yemenese civil war, and other global issues? Were many MSA religious? Were they interested in theological discussions and interfaith discussions? [I am.]
I would also be interested in anecdotes regarding how MSA members come down on the nuances. For example; what they think about Hamas versus Fatah versus Mustafa Barghouti.
Are the MSA a diverse group with members from many countries [such as India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan]?
Sorry about the stream of questions. Has anyone here had extensive dealings with MSA students?
Back in 2000, I read a story in the college paper about a moderate Muslim Pakistani-American who had to resign from the campus MSA because the Islamist Arabs took over. He tried to get attention to the problem, but I doubt anything was done.
About the "gather the Jews in one place" genocide concept, here's the more common Islamist rallying cry for genocide, known as the "Jews-rocks-trees" prophecy. Israel's Islamist enemies bring it up often, including this "expert":
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/Jews-Tree.htm
Posted by: FormerStudent at May 14, 2010 9:20 am
About the "gather the Jews in one place" genocide concept, here's the more common Islamist rallying cry for genocide, known as the "Jews-rocks-trees" prophecy. Israel's Islamist enemies bring it up often, including this "expert":
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/Jews-Tree.htm
Here's the first mention of Nasrallah's statement posted in the Daily Star Online.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021024133755/http://www.dailystar.com.lb/23_10_02/art5.asp
Posted by: Pat Patterson at May 14, 2010 9:31 am
http://web.archive.org/web/20021024133755/http://www.dailystar.com.lb/23_10_02/art5.asp
Former Student...
The response by the "expert" was pretty typical too.
Everything was great for Jews under Islam until Israel came along blah blah blah.
And of course Jesus will support the Muslims too...riiiight!
Posted by: jb at May 14, 2010 9:34 am
The response by the "expert" was pretty typical too.
Everything was great for Jews under Islam until Israel came along blah blah blah.
And of course Jesus will support the Muslims too...riiiight!
Anan:
Hezbollah did, indeed, cough up money to restore a once major synagogue in Lebanon, where less than 100 Jews currently dwell.
Hezbollah has also spent a lot of money renovating the dwellings of poor southern Lebanese Shias, but this assistance often came at the price of adding secret "rooms" to house rocket launchers.
While I'm not sure that Hezbollah's generosity was motived by trying to turn the synagogue into an arms cache, as is often done with mosques operated by the extremist factions, it is highly unlikely that it's because Hezbollah has any warm and fuzzy feelings toward any Jews, wherever they live.
Posted by: Lynne T at May 14, 2010 9:37 am
Hezbollah did, indeed, cough up money to restore a once major synagogue in Lebanon, where less than 100 Jews currently dwell.
Hezbollah has also spent a lot of money renovating the dwellings of poor southern Lebanese Shias, but this assistance often came at the price of adding secret "rooms" to house rocket launchers.
While I'm not sure that Hezbollah's generosity was motived by trying to turn the synagogue into an arms cache, as is often done with mosques operated by the extremist factions, it is highly unlikely that it's because Hezbollah has any warm and fuzzy feelings toward any Jews, wherever they live.
jb, for muslims Jesus is one of their two most important prophets. You could argue that Mohammed believed that Jesus was the greatest prophet of all.
Mary, mother of Jesus, is considered the best woman of all time by muslims. Fatimah, daughter of Mohammed, is the second best woman.
jb, things were not "great" for Jews under Islam. However, Jews were treated better by Ottomans than by Europeans. Too many Arabs saw Jews as Ottoman Turk collaborators.
Is some of the prejudice in the Arab world against Jews today lingering anger regarding the Jewish/Ottoman relationship pre 1918? The Jewish/Ottoman relationship is a major reason for the Turkish/Israeli alliance post 1948.
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 9:43 am
Mary, mother of Jesus, is considered the best woman of all time by muslims. Fatimah, daughter of Mohammed, is the second best woman.
jb, things were not "great" for Jews under Islam. However, Jews were treated better by Ottomans than by Europeans. Too many Arabs saw Jews as Ottoman Turk collaborators.
Is some of the prejudice in the Arab world against Jews today lingering anger regarding the Jewish/Ottoman relationship pre 1918? The Jewish/Ottoman relationship is a major reason for the Turkish/Israeli alliance post 1948.
"Too many Arabs saw Jews as Ottoman Turk collaborators." And what about the Arabs who sided with the Nazis during the Jewish intifada in the Warsaw ghetto?
Posted by: Harold at May 14, 2010 9:58 am
Anand,
What a simplification!!
Jesus (Isa) was actually considered a Muslim because he surrendered to Allah rather than a prophet such as Moses (Musa)who is discussed more than any other non-Islamic prophet in the Quran.
But I'm getting into a detailed discussion here.
also as a simplification about the Jews in Islamic countries.
That they fared marginally better was due more to specific Islamic leaders. The same is true in Europe but to a lesser degree, Eurpean leaders being overall more cynical and letting the populace take out their misery on the Jews.
But the history is well documented and itwas only a "golden age" in your imagination!
Posted by: jb at May 14, 2010 10:29 am
What a simplification!!
Jesus (Isa) was actually considered a Muslim because he surrendered to Allah rather than a prophet such as Moses (Musa)who is discussed more than any other non-Islamic prophet in the Quran.
But I'm getting into a detailed discussion here.
also as a simplification about the Jews in Islamic countries.
That they fared marginally better was due more to specific Islamic leaders. The same is true in Europe but to a lesser degree, Eurpean leaders being overall more cynical and letting the populace take out their misery on the Jews.
But the history is well documented and itwas only a "golden age" in your imagination!
Sally: I piped up quickly that I thought it was great and that we should bomb even more, we should bomb everything and kill everyone so we would win.
When the USA was bombing "everything" in Japan, that meant firebombing Tokyo and nuking Hiroshimi -- and winning.
Had the US nuked Hanoi, it is highly unlikely that the N. Vietamese would have continued fighting, nor that Pol Pot would have had the Killing Fields ... but such "winning" would have created far, far, mores such teachers feeling guilt.
The teacher's form of the West is willing to accept the Rest In Peace kind of peace, rather than actually fighting against the Islamofascist radical Islamist jihadi would-be genociders.
How to avoid the coming Iran nuke genocide?
I have lots of ideas, all seem bad.
Pre-emptive strikes, re-occupation of Gaza with strong anti-Hamas/ anti-Muslim restrictions, ... and either type of total evacuation -- all Israeli Jews to the USA (or anywhere), or all Palestinians to the USA (or anywhere).
Why not try Swiss Canton style gov't, with different Jewish and Arab cantons?
Almost all ideas seem better to me than waiting for Tel Aviv, or Jerusalem, to go mushroom. Yet they're only in my dreams, nightmares, but less bad than the mushroom cloud nightmare.
The Jew-hate is preparing the world climate to blame the Jews when the killers get a nuke, and use it. I lover your writing, Michael, but I don't see how it, or anything other than pre-emptive war, can derail the coming train wreck / nuke use.
The teacher, in defending her student, is defending Jew hate, and near-future genocide.
Posted by: Tom Grey at May 14, 2010 10:32 am
When the USA was bombing "everything" in Japan, that meant firebombing Tokyo and nuking Hiroshimi -- and winning.
Had the US nuked Hanoi, it is highly unlikely that the N. Vietamese would have continued fighting, nor that Pol Pot would have had the Killing Fields ... but such "winning" would have created far, far, mores such teachers feeling guilt.
The teacher's form of the West is willing to accept the Rest In Peace kind of peace, rather than actually fighting against the Islamofascist radical Islamist jihadi would-be genociders.
How to avoid the coming Iran nuke genocide?
I have lots of ideas, all seem bad.
Pre-emptive strikes, re-occupation of Gaza with strong anti-Hamas/ anti-Muslim restrictions, ... and either type of total evacuation -- all Israeli Jews to the USA (or anywhere), or all Palestinians to the USA (or anywhere).
Why not try Swiss Canton style gov't, with different Jewish and Arab cantons?
Almost all ideas seem better to me than waiting for Tel Aviv, or Jerusalem, to go mushroom. Yet they're only in my dreams, nightmares, but less bad than the mushroom cloud nightmare.
The Jew-hate is preparing the world climate to blame the Jews when the killers get a nuke, and use it. I lover your writing, Michael, but I don't see how it, or anything other than pre-emptive war, can derail the coming train wreck / nuke use.
The teacher, in defending her student, is defending Jew hate, and near-future genocide.
Harold, Hitler might have died . . . but his ideas and the millions inspired by him did not. Many of them were in the Arab world, Europe, Africa, or in India [Subash Chandra Bose.]
Without a doubt many Arabs supported a final solution to the Jewish question in the 1940s. The Baath party was inspired by the Nazis. So were many other Arab movements. This said; I think it would be accurate to say that while a large minority supported Hitler's ideology; many Arabs also opposed Hitler's ideology. The Arab world was divided.
Putting Nazism aside; imagine how angry many Arabs were in 1918 at half a millennium of [in their minds harsh] Ottoman Turk occupation; and how upset many Arabs were at the Ottoman collaborators in the Arab world; including Jewish Arabs who they thought had collaborated with the Ottoman Turk occupation.
For that matter; you can imagine how furious Palestinians were in 1918 after 5 centuries of harsh Turkish occupation. Their anger was increased by British occupation 1918-1948; and by harsh Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian occupation 1948-1967. Post 1967 Palestinians are upset about Israeli mistreatment. It is like the Palestinians haven't had a break; being continually occupied by harsh occupations since the Babylonians in the 7th century BC.
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 10:36 am
Without a doubt many Arabs supported a final solution to the Jewish question in the 1940s. The Baath party was inspired by the Nazis. So were many other Arab movements. This said; I think it would be accurate to say that while a large minority supported Hitler's ideology; many Arabs also opposed Hitler's ideology. The Arab world was divided.
Putting Nazism aside; imagine how angry many Arabs were in 1918 at half a millennium of [in their minds harsh] Ottoman Turk occupation; and how upset many Arabs were at the Ottoman collaborators in the Arab world; including Jewish Arabs who they thought had collaborated with the Ottoman Turk occupation.
For that matter; you can imagine how furious Palestinians were in 1918 after 5 centuries of harsh Turkish occupation. Their anger was increased by British occupation 1918-1948; and by harsh Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian occupation 1948-1967. Post 1967 Palestinians are upset about Israeli mistreatment. It is like the Palestinians haven't had a break; being continually occupied by harsh occupations since the Babylonians in the 7th century BC.
jb, according the Rev Wright, Jesus was a black Palestinian....
If you want to see the intersection of various groups pretending to be moderate Muslim organizations, check out the Trinity Newsletter....
Media gave this a pass during the primary as did many Democratic voters....
Anan, I believe Jews made a rather historic stand against the Romans defending Palestine along with Arabs.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 14, 2010 10:45 am
If you want to see the intersection of various groups pretending to be moderate Muslim organizations, check out the Trinity Newsletter....
Media gave this a pass during the primary as did many Democratic voters....
Anan, I believe Jews made a rather historic stand against the Romans defending Palestine along with Arabs.....
It is like the Palestinians haven't had a break; being continually occupied by harsh occupations since the Babylonians in the 7th century BC.
There was no such thing as a "Palestinian" in the 7th century BC, anand :)
Not by anyone's definition.
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 10:49 am
There was no such thing as a "Palestinian" in the 7th century BC, anand :)
Not by anyone's definition.
Islam recognizes 5 great uber prophets who bring revealed scripture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam#Prophets_and_messengers_in_the_Qur.27an
1. Noah
2. Abraham
3. Moses
4. Jesus
5. Mohammed
The greatest of these is usually recognized to be Jesus. Jesus is also the only man that muslims recognize as a Messiah.
JB, who called the treatment of Jews by the "Ummah" a golden age? Europeans abused Jews much worse than many muslims. This is more a reflection of deep European bigotry and racism than a positive indictment on muslims.
I would argue that since the 7th century BC, Jews have been best treated in South Asia [where they have always liked Jews], in pre 1979 Persia [traditional close allies of the Jewish people since Cyrus the Great], and by the Ottoman Turks.
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 10:53 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam#Prophets_and_messengers_in_the_Qur.27an
1. Noah
2. Abraham
3. Moses
4. Jesus
5. Mohammed
The greatest of these is usually recognized to be Jesus. Jesus is also the only man that muslims recognize as a Messiah.
JB, who called the treatment of Jews by the "Ummah" a golden age? Europeans abused Jews much worse than many muslims. This is more a reflection of deep European bigotry and racism than a positive indictment on muslims.
I would argue that since the 7th century BC, Jews have been best treated in South Asia [where they have always liked Jews], in pre 1979 Persia [traditional close allies of the Jewish people since Cyrus the Great], and by the Ottoman Turks.
Anan: It is like the Palestinians haven't had a break; being continually occupied by harsh occupations since the Babylonians in the 7th century BC.
Yeah, well, maybe they should say "yes" next time they're offered a state.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 10:54 am
Yeah, well, maybe they should say "yes" next time they're offered a state.
"Anan, I believe Jews made a rather historic stand against the Romans defending Palestine along with Arabs..... " Ummm, depends.
Palestine was conquered from Babylon by Cyrus the Great. Persian occupation was pro Jewish. Palestine was conquered from Persia by Alexander the Great. Palesine remained under Greek Hellenistic rule until the Greek state that ruled Rome joined the Roman Empire [Rome itself was part of the greater Greek people.]
Jews tolerated both the Greeks and the Romans until the great Arab/Jewish revolt of 66-70 AD, which the Romans crushed. Palestine remained under Roman [or Eastern Roman] rule until the 7th century AD. Arab occupation continued until the Crusades and Mongols. The Ottomans occupied Palestine from the 15th century AD on.
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 11:02 am
Palestine was conquered from Babylon by Cyrus the Great. Persian occupation was pro Jewish. Palestine was conquered from Persia by Alexander the Great. Palesine remained under Greek Hellenistic rule until the Greek state that ruled Rome joined the Roman Empire [Rome itself was part of the greater Greek people.]
Jews tolerated both the Greeks and the Romans until the great Arab/Jewish revolt of 66-70 AD, which the Romans crushed. Palestine remained under Roman [or Eastern Roman] rule until the 7th century AD. Arab occupation continued until the Crusades and Mongols. The Ottomans occupied Palestine from the 15th century AD on.
Anan, I believe Jews made a rather historic stand against the Romans defending Palestine along with Arabs.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Jewish_Revolt
The province was called Judea (Iudaea Province), not Palestine. The Romans didn't rename the province to Palestine until after this revolt was crushed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba%27s_revolt
And as far as I can tell reading those links, the Jews fought alone against the Romans in all 3 of their revolts. Even if that wasn't true, the Philistines of that era were greeks, not Arabs. And the Canaanites were... Canaanites... not Arabs. The Syrians were Syrians. Not Arabs. And so on. The Arabs didn't arrive in numbers until centuries later.
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 11:03 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Jewish_Revolt
The province was called Judea (Iudaea Province), not Palestine. The Romans didn't rename the province to Palestine until after this revolt was crushed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba%27s_revolt
And as far as I can tell reading those links, the Jews fought alone against the Romans in all 3 of their revolts. Even if that wasn't true, the Philistines of that era were greeks, not Arabs. And the Canaanites were... Canaanites... not Arabs. The Syrians were Syrians. Not Arabs. And so on. The Arabs didn't arrive in numbers until centuries later.
Anand, there's so much bullshit in your comments. Why do you keep calling it "Palestine"? Why do you keep referring to the inhabitants 2000+ years ago as Jews/Arabs? Revisionist history much? :p
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 11:06 am
Anan: Jews tolerated both the Greeks and the Romans until the great Arab/Jewish revolt of 66-70 AD, which the Romans crushed.
There were no Arabs in "Palestine" in 66AD. Arabs didn't invade and conquer it until centuries later.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 11:12 am
There were no Arabs in "Palestine" in 66AD. Arabs didn't invade and conquer it until centuries later.
Ah, I see Craig and I made the same point at the same time. I didn't mean to be repetitive.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 11:14 am
Craig, touche. Palestinians were not Arabs before 632 AD.
How about this idea; are the Palestinians maybe not Arab? Imagine the possibilities. Maybe a pan Palestinian Israeli alliance against their shared enemies.
How many of the Palestinians are really Jews or other Abrahamics who converted to Islam? How many Palestinians are pre Abraham Noah derived peoples?
One issue that stumps me is the definition of Arab and the definition of Palestinian.
What are Palestinians? How many Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Iraqis are Palestinian?
What are the many Arabs who moved to Palestine between 1918 and 1948?
Can some Arab Jews be called Palestinians?
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 11:35 am
How about this idea; are the Palestinians maybe not Arab? Imagine the possibilities. Maybe a pan Palestinian Israeli alliance against their shared enemies.
How many of the Palestinians are really Jews or other Abrahamics who converted to Islam? How many Palestinians are pre Abraham Noah derived peoples?
One issue that stumps me is the definition of Arab and the definition of Palestinian.
What are Palestinians? How many Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Iraqis are Palestinian?
What are the many Arabs who moved to Palestine between 1918 and 1948?
Can some Arab Jews be called Palestinians?
Anan: are the Palestinians maybe not Arab?
They aren't pure Arabs genetically, but they speak Arabic and feel Arab culturally.
Imagine the possibilities. Maybe a pan Palestinian Israeli alliance against their shared enemies.
You don't understand the basic lay of the land.
Israelis and Palestinians are bitter enemies. I wish they weren't, but they are, and you are supremely delusional for believing they are brothers and sisters.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 11:46 am
They aren't pure Arabs genetically, but they speak Arabic and feel Arab culturally.
Imagine the possibilities. Maybe a pan Palestinian Israeli alliance against their shared enemies.
You don't understand the basic lay of the land.
Israelis and Palestinians are bitter enemies. I wish they weren't, but they are, and you are supremely delusional for believing they are brothers and sisters.
Anand,
There are just enough facts in your comments to make one ALMOST believe the bullshit parts too.
But stop trying, will you!
People here are not that stupid.
Ah but it must be hard for you coming from that parallel universe and all.
Try Neal Stephensons, "Anathem". You'll feel right at home.
Between the expulsion of the Jews by Titus and the beginning of the Mandate, that area was a backwater, and you bloody well know it.
and stop putting Palestinian Arabs in it.
The Arabs who migrated into the Mandate in the 20th century did so for economic reasons. Before that the population in toto was pretty sparse (all groups) and a real shithole basically ignored by the Ottomans.
You might be surprised, anand that its very likely the majority of posters here do not rely on Wikipedia for their history!
Posted by: jb at May 14, 2010 11:55 am
There are just enough facts in your comments to make one ALMOST believe the bullshit parts too.
But stop trying, will you!
People here are not that stupid.
Ah but it must be hard for you coming from that parallel universe and all.
Try Neal Stephensons, "Anathem". You'll feel right at home.
Between the expulsion of the Jews by Titus and the beginning of the Mandate, that area was a backwater, and you bloody well know it.
and stop putting Palestinian Arabs in it.
The Arabs who migrated into the Mandate in the 20th century did so for economic reasons. Before that the population in toto was pretty sparse (all groups) and a real shithole basically ignored by the Ottomans.
You might be surprised, anand that its very likely the majority of posters here do not rely on Wikipedia for their history!
Leo:
If Jewish student did not punch back he will be punched more and more and deservedly so.
I agree with you, and certainly if somebody swung at me I'd defend myself. That said, I wouldn't have faith in university officials to get to the bottom of who initiated the violence and who was defending against violence. So, I wouldn't hold it against a Jewish student for pulling his punches.
When I was a student we were pretty cleaver. Once the Arab/Muslims put highly offensive posters in a glass encasement. I remember one had a big yellow Star of David (connoting the Holocaust) dripping with blood onto a dead Arab baby. We asked the University to take down the offensive poster, or at least change the yellow star. They refused (freedom of speech), so we took manners into our own hands. We got a big wire clipper and one weekend morning snapped the lock, took the offending poster, and closed the encasement back up again.
Another year the 'enemy' kept vandalizing our office door wall. There was a long, narrow window to the left of the door. We put black paper over it, cut a hole into the paper and put a video camera lens behind the hole. We busted them; it was two females in hijabs.
On Yom HaShoah we arrived to our office to find that somebody tossed urine on it. Somebody also tossed a brick through one our member's cars.
One time the 'enemy' put a sign on their office door that read: "A note to all the kikes that insist on vandalizing our office door: do it again and we'll throw you into the ovens that you crawled out of."
Then the was the Palestinian who told a guy that knew me that he would like to kill me. After that I carried an unloaded gun (it was a real pea-shooter, so I couldn't find bullets for it).
We put on a symposium with a Palestinian professor and local Jewish/Israeli figure. The symposium was great; both speakers were polite and moderate. I was young and had set it up. So, naturally, my parents wanted to check it out. At the time my mom had just had my sister, who was about 6 months. When the symposium was over I was holding my baby sister, chatting with my mom, when two MSA members walked towards me in a menacing why, passed by me closely, while practically snarling at me AS I WAS HOLDING MY BABY SISTER! Just thinking about it fills me with rage.
I could go on and on. But always remember: the Muslims and Palestinians are innocent victims.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 12:08 pm
If Jewish student did not punch back he will be punched more and more and deservedly so.
I agree with you, and certainly if somebody swung at me I'd defend myself. That said, I wouldn't have faith in university officials to get to the bottom of who initiated the violence and who was defending against violence. So, I wouldn't hold it against a Jewish student for pulling his punches.
When I was a student we were pretty cleaver. Once the Arab/Muslims put highly offensive posters in a glass encasement. I remember one had a big yellow Star of David (connoting the Holocaust) dripping with blood onto a dead Arab baby. We asked the University to take down the offensive poster, or at least change the yellow star. They refused (freedom of speech), so we took manners into our own hands. We got a big wire clipper and one weekend morning snapped the lock, took the offending poster, and closed the encasement back up again.
Another year the 'enemy' kept vandalizing our office door wall. There was a long, narrow window to the left of the door. We put black paper over it, cut a hole into the paper and put a video camera lens behind the hole. We busted them; it was two females in hijabs.
On Yom HaShoah we arrived to our office to find that somebody tossed urine on it. Somebody also tossed a brick through one our member's cars.
One time the 'enemy' put a sign on their office door that read: "A note to all the kikes that insist on vandalizing our office door: do it again and we'll throw you into the ovens that you crawled out of."
Then the was the Palestinian who told a guy that knew me that he would like to kill me. After that I carried an unloaded gun (it was a real pea-shooter, so I couldn't find bullets for it).
We put on a symposium with a Palestinian professor and local Jewish/Israeli figure. The symposium was great; both speakers were polite and moderate. I was young and had set it up. So, naturally, my parents wanted to check it out. At the time my mom had just had my sister, who was about 6 months. When the symposium was over I was holding my baby sister, chatting with my mom, when two MSA members walked towards me in a menacing why, passed by me closely, while practically snarling at me AS I WAS HOLDING MY BABY SISTER! Just thinking about it fills me with rage.
I could go on and on. But always remember: the Muslims and Palestinians are innocent victims.
Anan, I have no idea what the students in MSA (and GUPS: General Union of Palestinian Students) believed. I only know that they were rank anti-Semites.
As an aside, a lot of this happened during the war in the Balkans. The MSA, taking up the Bosnian Muslim cause, started getting anti-Serbian. One of the Serb students came to us to learn a little bit about how to counter the MSA. Although most of us didn't feel comfortable about what the Serbs were doing in the war, we decided to help them. After all, they pointed out, we Jews and Serbs had the same enemy in WWII. Plus, one of them had some really graphic images of Saudi Jihadis mutilating Serbs. One I'll never forget is a picture of a bearded jihadi holding to severed heads by the hair and smiling.
Anyway ... once the MSA pulled their same shit on the Serbs--comparing them to Nazis--one of the Serbs, a huge guy, confronted an MSA member and shoved him hard against a wall. The MSA member was completely frightened. I loved it.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 12:24 pm
As an aside, a lot of this happened during the war in the Balkans. The MSA, taking up the Bosnian Muslim cause, started getting anti-Serbian. One of the Serb students came to us to learn a little bit about how to counter the MSA. Although most of us didn't feel comfortable about what the Serbs were doing in the war, we decided to help them. After all, they pointed out, we Jews and Serbs had the same enemy in WWII. Plus, one of them had some really graphic images of Saudi Jihadis mutilating Serbs. One I'll never forget is a picture of a bearded jihadi holding to severed heads by the hair and smiling.
Anyway ... once the MSA pulled their same shit on the Serbs--comparing them to Nazis--one of the Serbs, a huge guy, confronted an MSA member and shoved him hard against a wall. The MSA member was completely frightened. I loved it.
Michael, I'm asking you (or anyone besides anan)because I think you might know. During the British mandate (1917-1947) the word "Palestinian" meant a Jew from Palestine. Arabs from Palestine were referred to during those days simply as "Arabs." No?
Posted by: Harold at May 14, 2010 12:32 pm
Harold,
That's a good question, and I'm not actually sure.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 12:36 pm
That's a good question, and I'm not actually sure.
semite5000, this happened at a US university? Wow. Maybe its a good thing I missed the MSA and related crowds in college.
I noticed a lot of anti Jewish bigotry when I was in college too; much of it from the posh sophisticated academic left. Some Arabs were also anti Jewish.
I liked hanging out with buds who happened to be Jewish. Mostly business association, class teams, case competition stuff. Not sure why; but I tended to hang out with and like dudes who happened to be Jewish more than other groups. Craig, have you noticed that Jewish and South Asian Americans tend to hang out a bunch?
I never understood why so many people, not just muslims, didn't like Jews. Is it because of the "Christ killer" accusation? Is it because of jealousy? What else is going on?
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 12:41 pm
I noticed a lot of anti Jewish bigotry when I was in college too; much of it from the posh sophisticated academic left. Some Arabs were also anti Jewish.
I liked hanging out with buds who happened to be Jewish. Mostly business association, class teams, case competition stuff. Not sure why; but I tended to hang out with and like dudes who happened to be Jewish more than other groups. Craig, have you noticed that Jewish and South Asian Americans tend to hang out a bunch?
I never understood why so many people, not just muslims, didn't like Jews. Is it because of the "Christ killer" accusation? Is it because of jealousy? What else is going on?
semite5000, you are full of stories. Serbs and Jews are traditional allies. Both fought the Nazis. Serbia (and Yugoslavia) have been allies since WWII. Without Yugoslav help; it is hard to see how Israel could have won the 1948 war.
Israel was shipping weapons to Serbia even in the months leading up to the 1995 and 1999 NATO-Serb wars.
The Serbs closest traditional allies are the Russians, Greek Orthodox, Iraqis and Israelis.
Any more stories semite5000? For full disclosure I was pro Kosovar ethnic Albanian in 1999.
This said; now that the Serbs are cool with the ethnic Albanians . . . the Serbs rock. Would love to have Serbs as allies in Afghanistan training the ANSF. The Serbs had offered this back in 2003. Not sure regarding the status of that today.
Serbs are Iraq's BFF today. Something I give the Serbs a lot of credit for. Serbs actually like Iraqis. Many Iraqis live in or visit Serbia.
Harold, good questions. Can Jewish Arabs be called Palestinian? When did Arabs from Palestine start to be referred to differently from Arabs outside of Palestine?
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 1:00 pm
Israel was shipping weapons to Serbia even in the months leading up to the 1995 and 1999 NATO-Serb wars.
The Serbs closest traditional allies are the Russians, Greek Orthodox, Iraqis and Israelis.
Any more stories semite5000? For full disclosure I was pro Kosovar ethnic Albanian in 1999.
This said; now that the Serbs are cool with the ethnic Albanians . . . the Serbs rock. Would love to have Serbs as allies in Afghanistan training the ANSF. The Serbs had offered this back in 2003. Not sure regarding the status of that today.
Serbs are Iraq's BFF today. Something I give the Serbs a lot of credit for. Serbs actually like Iraqis. Many Iraqis live in or visit Serbia.
Harold, good questions. Can Jewish Arabs be called Palestinian? When did Arabs from Palestine start to be referred to differently from Arabs outside of Palestine?
Craig, have you noticed that Jewish and South Asian Americans tend to hang out a bunch?
Can't say as I have, anand, but there aren't many Jews in the part of Los Angeles where I live. We do have a fair number of Iranians and Chinese, as well as latinos and blacks.
Anyway, about the MSA... I've been atking some classes just for fun at one of the colleges around here and I have noticed that virtually all of the political flyers at the school are pimping for Islamic causes in one way or another. It's so bad I don't even stop to peruse the flyers any more. What's really odd about that is that probably 1/2 the student body is Chinese, and (just guessing) only a few percent are Muslim. A *very* vocal few percent, it seems. Strikes me as a bit of the "tyranny of the minority" thing. Why in the hell should so many young Americans have issues in their face all the time that the bulk of them couldn't care less about?
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 1:00 pm
Can't say as I have, anand, but there aren't many Jews in the part of Los Angeles where I live. We do have a fair number of Iranians and Chinese, as well as latinos and blacks.
Anyway, about the MSA... I've been atking some classes just for fun at one of the colleges around here and I have noticed that virtually all of the political flyers at the school are pimping for Islamic causes in one way or another. It's so bad I don't even stop to peruse the flyers any more. What's really odd about that is that probably 1/2 the student body is Chinese, and (just guessing) only a few percent are Muslim. A *very* vocal few percent, it seems. Strikes me as a bit of the "tyranny of the minority" thing. Why in the hell should so many young Americans have issues in their face all the time that the bulk of them couldn't care less about?
Michael,
You don't know this girl, you're condemning her as a "skinhead" based on an exchange with Horowitz - a man who lives to provoke and attract attention to himself. She's also a college student and, as such, presumably idealistic and lacking common sense. You are also arguing from anecdote in making the assumption that we can generalize widely from this one exchange. But the truth is you're not exposing any deep truths about the Muslim world, you're just trying to rile up your readership with sensationalism. This post really does not reflect well on your judgment.
Posted by: Ivan N at May 14, 2010 1:42 pm
You don't know this girl, you're condemning her as a "skinhead" based on an exchange with Horowitz - a man who lives to provoke and attract attention to himself. She's also a college student and, as such, presumably idealistic and lacking common sense. You are also arguing from anecdote in making the assumption that we can generalize widely from this one exchange. But the truth is you're not exposing any deep truths about the Muslim world, you're just trying to rile up your readership with sensationalism. This post really does not reflect well on your judgment.
Anan: For full disclosure I was pro Kosovar ethnic Albanian in 1999.
So was I, and so was Israel. The Albanians in Kosovo love Israel for helping them out with humanitarian aid before anyone else in the world. And there's unsurprisingly (to me anyway) a lot of sympathy in Serbia for Palestinians for their reactionary anti-Westernism that lines up with Belgrade's and Moscow's.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 1:59 pm
So was I, and so was Israel. The Albanians in Kosovo love Israel for helping them out with humanitarian aid before anyone else in the world. And there's unsurprisingly (to me anyway) a lot of sympathy in Serbia for Palestinians for their reactionary anti-Westernism that lines up with Belgrade's and Moscow's.
Ivan N,
You don't know this girl, you're condemning her as a "skinhead" based on an exchange with Horowitz...
I'm waiting to hear more about her background. It seems nobody is looking into it, because I did a search last night and found nothing except commentary about this exchange she had with Horowitz.
From what I can see and hear on the video clip, she seems to be an American white girl. Since there are very few white American muslim families (I've never even heard of one, and I've lived all over the US) I think it's fairly safe to assume she's a convert to Islam. If so, then she has thought very long and hard about her choice to support Islamic causes, including Islamic jihad and including (it would seem) genocide against Jews. I don't think it's fair to us - the rest of America - to expect us to think she's just an innocent young thing who didn't know what she was saying.
...a man who lives to provoke and attract attention to himself.
And she made a conscious decision to take him up on that. She attended that event to provoke a confrontation with him. How is that David Horowitz's fault?
She's also a college student and, as such, presumably idealistic and lacking common sense.
Even more true for the Hitler Youth, no? Their indoctrination began in grammar school. The young are always the target of choice for those who have a political agenda.
You are also arguing from anecdote in making the assumption that we can generalize widely from this one exchange.
About the MSA? Where are all the statements from the Muslim Student Association condemning her actions? Is there even *one*?
It's not a generalization when a member of a group causes a controversy in the name of that group, and the group supports her in that. She spoke for the group, and the group backs her.
But the truth is you're not exposing any deep truths about the Muslim world...
Is he? I thought he was trying to expose some "deep truths" about what's going on with American college campuses.
...you're just trying to rile up your readership with sensationalism. This post really does not reflect well on your judgment.
I can only speak for myself, but I've been riled up about the shenanigans Palestinian activists have been up to at US colleges since the 1990s. It's about damn time somebody started paying attention. We don't need to sacrifice any (more?) generations of American youth at the alter of Palestine.
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 2:01 pm
You don't know this girl, you're condemning her as a "skinhead" based on an exchange with Horowitz...
I'm waiting to hear more about her background. It seems nobody is looking into it, because I did a search last night and found nothing except commentary about this exchange she had with Horowitz.
From what I can see and hear on the video clip, she seems to be an American white girl. Since there are very few white American muslim families (I've never even heard of one, and I've lived all over the US) I think it's fairly safe to assume she's a convert to Islam. If so, then she has thought very long and hard about her choice to support Islamic causes, including Islamic jihad and including (it would seem) genocide against Jews. I don't think it's fair to us - the rest of America - to expect us to think she's just an innocent young thing who didn't know what she was saying.
...a man who lives to provoke and attract attention to himself.
And she made a conscious decision to take him up on that. She attended that event to provoke a confrontation with him. How is that David Horowitz's fault?
She's also a college student and, as such, presumably idealistic and lacking common sense.
Even more true for the Hitler Youth, no? Their indoctrination began in grammar school. The young are always the target of choice for those who have a political agenda.
You are also arguing from anecdote in making the assumption that we can generalize widely from this one exchange.
About the MSA? Where are all the statements from the Muslim Student Association condemning her actions? Is there even *one*?
It's not a generalization when a member of a group causes a controversy in the name of that group, and the group supports her in that. She spoke for the group, and the group backs her.
But the truth is you're not exposing any deep truths about the Muslim world...
Is he? I thought he was trying to expose some "deep truths" about what's going on with American college campuses.
...you're just trying to rile up your readership with sensationalism. This post really does not reflect well on your judgment.
I can only speak for myself, but I've been riled up about the shenanigans Palestinian activists have been up to at US colleges since the 1990s. It's about damn time somebody started paying attention. We don't need to sacrifice any (more?) generations of American youth at the alter of Palestine.
Ivan/Vanya: But the truth is you're not exposing any deep truths about the Muslim world, you're just trying to rile up your readership with sensationalism.
This post wasn't about the Muslim world. It's about intellectuals who plug their ears and whitewash genocidal maniacs as "idealists."
You usually seem to know better.
Yes, Horowitz likes to provoke. So what? A reasonable non-bigoted person would never have answered him like she did. I know plenty of Muslims who don't think like that despicable student.
And yes, she is despicable. She does not get even an iota of slack for being young or for being a minority. I lived in a Muslim-majority country that's actually at war with Israel--the very country where Hezbollah lives--and none of the people in my neighborhood said what she said when discussing Israel.
Hezbollah people talked like her sometimes, but I steered clear of them for the most part because they're political totalitarians with their own terrorist army. I certainly would not have tried to rent an apartment in Hezbollah neighborhoods. I know what these people are like--especially after they shot up my liberal Sunni neighborhood with rocket launchers--and I'm a little bit surprised you haven't figured it out yet.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 2:10 pm
This post wasn't about the Muslim world. It's about intellectuals who plug their ears and whitewash genocidal maniacs as "idealists."
You usually seem to know better.
Yes, Horowitz likes to provoke. So what? A reasonable non-bigoted person would never have answered him like she did. I know plenty of Muslims who don't think like that despicable student.
And yes, she is despicable. She does not get even an iota of slack for being young or for being a minority. I lived in a Muslim-majority country that's actually at war with Israel--the very country where Hezbollah lives--and none of the people in my neighborhood said what she said when discussing Israel.
Hezbollah people talked like her sometimes, but I steered clear of them for the most part because they're political totalitarians with their own terrorist army. I certainly would not have tried to rent an apartment in Hezbollah neighborhoods. I know what these people are like--especially after they shot up my liberal Sunni neighborhood with rocket launchers--and I'm a little bit surprised you haven't figured it out yet.
Anan: Serbs are Iraq's BFF today. Something I give the Serbs a lot of credit for.
Slobodan Milosevic supported Saddam Hussein.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 14, 2010 2:12 pm
Slobodan Milosevic supported Saddam Hussein.
Wait a minute... did she say that the MSA was hosting our annual Hitler youth week and that we should come and see all the activities?
I think that her teacher should go to that and report back.
Come on as soon as you heard that you had to know it was going to go down hill from there. The one thing that many in the states don't realize is the strong connection to Hitler's Germany and the Arab world. Just look at many of the governmental symbols of Saddam's Iraq and those of the Nazis. And it is not only Iraq but many Arab countries really look up to what Hitler did.
To A. Casavantes I say the only one being manipulated is you.
Posted by: Wild Bill at May 14, 2010 2:26 pm
I think that her teacher should go to that and report back.
Come on as soon as you heard that you had to know it was going to go down hill from there. The one thing that many in the states don't realize is the strong connection to Hitler's Germany and the Arab world. Just look at many of the governmental symbols of Saddam's Iraq and those of the Nazis. And it is not only Iraq but many Arab countries really look up to what Hitler did.
To A. Casavantes I say the only one being manipulated is you.
Craig,
Current celebrity victim status maybe? Che buttons are popular where I shop (no HugoC-wear though---yet.) Did Bosnians ever get much attention here?
Posted by: Paul S. at May 14, 2010 2:39 pm
Current celebrity victim status maybe? Che buttons are popular where I shop (no HugoC-wear though---yet.) Did Bosnians ever get much attention here?
MJT, Jumanah Imad Albahri might be an incredibly stupid young fool who hadn't a clue what she was saying. Maybe she needs psychiatric care rather than castigation.
I also think that naive young college students should be given "some" slack. Many talk crap without meaning it.
The Serbs like all Iraqis; and are confused about the differences between different Iraqis. I have yet to encounter an Iraqi who didn't like the Serbs. This includes many anti Saddam Iraqis who Serbs praise Saddam in front of [out of a desire to appear pro Iraqi and not understanding Iraqis don't like Saddam.]
Most of the top brass at the Iraqi MoD and Iraqi MoI are pro Serb and the Serbs like them back. Serb looks like it will be Iraq's second largest weapons supplier after the US [or third largest if Iraq buys 96 French Dassault Rafale 4.5 gen fighters as the IMoD is lobbying for].
There is a large Iraqi Serbian community that pushes for closer Serbian Iraqi ties.
Serbia was one of the first countries to reach out to the GoI and ISF post Saddam; and are probably percieved by Iraqis as the closest thing to an ally they have got. [Although pro French sentiment is also on the rise.] Leave it to Iraqis to be pro Serb and pro Turk at the same time. ;-)
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 2:51 pm
I also think that naive young college students should be given "some" slack. Many talk crap without meaning it.
The Serbs like all Iraqis; and are confused about the differences between different Iraqis. I have yet to encounter an Iraqi who didn't like the Serbs. This includes many anti Saddam Iraqis who Serbs praise Saddam in front of [out of a desire to appear pro Iraqi and not understanding Iraqis don't like Saddam.]
Most of the top brass at the Iraqi MoD and Iraqi MoI are pro Serb and the Serbs like them back. Serb looks like it will be Iraq's second largest weapons supplier after the US [or third largest if Iraq buys 96 French Dassault Rafale 4.5 gen fighters as the IMoD is lobbying for].
There is a large Iraqi Serbian community that pushes for closer Serbian Iraqi ties.
Serbia was one of the first countries to reach out to the GoI and ISF post Saddam; and are probably percieved by Iraqis as the closest thing to an ally they have got. [Although pro French sentiment is also on the rise.] Leave it to Iraqis to be pro Serb and pro Turk at the same time. ;-)
Paul S, Chavez isn't too popular in Latin America or Venezuela. One reason why is dropping oil production caused by low RoI exploration and CAPEX budgets and inefficient operational costs:
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/PAPRPVE.gif
"Did Bosnians ever get much attention here?" Yes. I was pro Bosnian.
MJT, if Israel was pro Bonsian and pro Albanian; good for Israel. :-)
Craig; I doubt most Palestinians are psychos. Most of them are no doubt cool people we would both like to hang out with. The activists represent a small fraction of Palestinians. Some of them are odd.
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 2:56 pm
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/PAPRPVE.gif
"Did Bosnians ever get much attention here?" Yes. I was pro Bosnian.
MJT, if Israel was pro Bonsian and pro Albanian; good for Israel. :-)
Craig; I doubt most Palestinians are psychos. Most of them are no doubt cool people we would both like to hang out with. The activists represent a small fraction of Palestinians. Some of them are odd.
Current celebrity victim status maybe? Che buttons are popular where I shop (no HugoC-wear though---yet.) Did Bosnians ever get much attention here?
Dunno, Paul. I first enrolled for classes here in LA at one of the state universities in fall of 1989 shortly after I got out of the Marines. Nobody ever said shit to me about my "Kill a Commie for Mommy" t-shirt. But maybe that's because I still had a flat-top and an obviously unpleasant disposition. Maybe not, though. That was the year the Cold War ended (or did it?) so it could be that nobody had come up with a new pet cause to get all "student activist" over.
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 2:59 pm
Dunno, Paul. I first enrolled for classes here in LA at one of the state universities in fall of 1989 shortly after I got out of the Marines. Nobody ever said shit to me about my "Kill a Commie for Mommy" t-shirt. But maybe that's because I still had a flat-top and an obviously unpleasant disposition. Maybe not, though. That was the year the Cold War ended (or did it?) so it could be that nobody had come up with a new pet cause to get all "student activist" over.
I also think that naive young college students should be given "some" slack. Many talk crap without meaning it.
Anand, I'm very far from a young college student and I frequently talk crap without meaning it. I've even said things on blogs that I regret saying. However, I think this young ladies ideology is perfectly clear, and if what she said was a "slip" it was in that she inadvertently said something she really DID mean. The shocking thing is that she said it, not that she thinks it. The nature of the jihadi groups she supports are ample evidence of what her thinking on the matter is.
Posted by: Craig at May 14, 2010 3:05 pm
Anand, I'm very far from a young college student and I frequently talk crap without meaning it. I've even said things on blogs that I regret saying. However, I think this young ladies ideology is perfectly clear, and if what she said was a "slip" it was in that she inadvertently said something she really DID mean. The shocking thing is that she said it, not that she thinks it. The nature of the jihadi groups she supports are ample evidence of what her thinking on the matter is.
Thank you Craig and Michael. I misspoke and actually was first going to say Palestinians, but that is a post Masada term. There were no Arabs as Craig described back during the Great Revolt and the demographics bare little resemblance present demographics. They captured Jerusalem in 637CE.
As for Masada, the Sicarii and the Zealots, both Jewish extremist groups were expelled by the Jewish population in Jerusalem because of their extreme opposition to Roman rule of Judea. They captured Masada which Herod had built, then being used as a Roman garrison in 37BCE. More than a hundred years later Roman destroyed the Second Temple which had stood for more than 400 years and recaptured Masada. These Jews were the only ones who opposed Roman Rule in Judea.
Jerusalem was further raised to the ground by the Romans after Jews refused to make it a pagan city in 135CE.
Ironically by today's standards, Cyrus the Great did indeed restore the Jews from captivity to Jerusalem and build the Second Temple: "'Thus saith Cyrus, king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath Yahweh, the god of heaven, given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all His people -- may Yahweh, his god, be with him -- let him go there.' (2 Chronicles 36:23)"
"In the first year of King Cyrus, Cyrus the king issued a decree: ‘Concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, let the temple, the place where sacrifices are offered, be rebuilt and let its foundations be retained, its height being 60 cubits and its width 60 cubits; with three layers of huge stones and one layer of timbers. And let the cost be paid from the royal treasury. ‘Also let the gold and silver utensils of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took from the temple in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, be returned and brought to their places in the temple in Jerusalem; and you shall put them in the house of God.’ (Ezra 6:3-5)"
In time, Rome displace Persia and was displaced by the Byzantium Empire which again the Jews revolted against in 351CE. The drive to make Jerusalem a Christian symbol continued (except for a brief Persian occupation in 614CE) until 637 when Muslims displaced Christianity in "Palestine". After 500 years of expulsion by the Romans a sizable number of Jews returned to Jerusalem.
During the first Rashidun Caliphate http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Califate_750.jpg Jews enjoyed a modicum of tolerance by Arabs no doubt because because of a convergence of strategic interest, but it is ironic that having been made exiles from their origins and left made outsiders for thousands of years, they now face a Khomenist Persia and Nazi inspired Salafists protecting what's left of Cyrus-Darius-Herod's Second Temple with nuclear weapons.
Not a great fan of Huntington http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations but I find his Carter/Zbignew/Harvard link (not identified at Wiki) to Obama interesting given his central role in GWOT.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 14, 2010 3:05 pm
As for Masada, the Sicarii and the Zealots, both Jewish extremist groups were expelled by the Jewish population in Jerusalem because of their extreme opposition to Roman rule of Judea. They captured Masada which Herod had built, then being used as a Roman garrison in 37BCE. More than a hundred years later Roman destroyed the Second Temple which had stood for more than 400 years and recaptured Masada. These Jews were the only ones who opposed Roman Rule in Judea.
Jerusalem was further raised to the ground by the Romans after Jews refused to make it a pagan city in 135CE.
Ironically by today's standards, Cyrus the Great did indeed restore the Jews from captivity to Jerusalem and build the Second Temple: "'Thus saith Cyrus, king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath Yahweh, the god of heaven, given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all His people -- may Yahweh, his god, be with him -- let him go there.' (2 Chronicles 36:23)"
"In the first year of King Cyrus, Cyrus the king issued a decree: ‘Concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, let the temple, the place where sacrifices are offered, be rebuilt and let its foundations be retained, its height being 60 cubits and its width 60 cubits; with three layers of huge stones and one layer of timbers. And let the cost be paid from the royal treasury. ‘Also let the gold and silver utensils of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took from the temple in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, be returned and brought to their places in the temple in Jerusalem; and you shall put them in the house of God.’ (Ezra 6:3-5)"
In time, Rome displace Persia and was displaced by the Byzantium Empire which again the Jews revolted against in 351CE. The drive to make Jerusalem a Christian symbol continued (except for a brief Persian occupation in 614CE) until 637 when Muslims displaced Christianity in "Palestine". After 500 years of expulsion by the Romans a sizable number of Jews returned to Jerusalem.
During the first Rashidun Caliphate http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Califate_750.jpg Jews enjoyed a modicum of tolerance by Arabs no doubt because because of a convergence of strategic interest, but it is ironic that having been made exiles from their origins and left made outsiders for thousands of years, they now face a Khomenist Persia and Nazi inspired Salafists protecting what's left of Cyrus-Darius-Herod's Second Temple with nuclear weapons.
Not a great fan of Huntington http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations but I find his Carter/Zbignew/Harvard link (not identified at Wiki) to Obama interesting given his central role in GWOT.
I brought up the British mandate definition of the term "Palestinian" because I read (can't recall where) that Jews from Palestine had the term "Palestinian" written on their identity cards under the heading "Nationality" during that historical period. Arabs from Palestine had the term "Arab" written under that same heading. Anyway, the fact remains that the word "Palestine" has its origins from Roman times, i.e. the Roman conquerors named that region "Palestine" as a means of erasing Jewish history. In other words, it's a name imposed on the region by outsiders. It does not originate from a language indigenous to the region.
Posted by: Harold at May 14, 2010 3:30 pm
Ivan, the girl is old enough to know better. Are you implying she is a retard?
If her tone would not had been so calm I might have given your assertion more credit.
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 4:17 pm
If her tone would not had been so calm I might have given your assertion more credit.
semite5000: "I wouldn't have faith in university officials to get to the bottom of who initiated the violence and who was defending against violence. So, I wouldn't hold it against a Jewish student for pulling his punches."
Your enemy does not give a damn, why should you?
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 4:22 pm
Your enemy does not give a damn, why should you?
"...a man who lives to provoke and attract attention to himself."
Oh for the love of God... Look, even I admit that Horowitz can be pretty damn provocative and manipulative in order to force a debate to go in the direction he wants it to go in. But let's be real here: There's manipulating debate, and there's letting water run downhill. This girl is in the latter category in spades. Horowitz at worst did nothing more than point downhill and ask if that's the direction she wanted to go in; she did the rest on her own.
Posted by: ElMondo at May 14, 2010 4:33 pm
Oh for the love of God... Look, even I admit that Horowitz can be pretty damn provocative and manipulative in order to force a debate to go in the direction he wants it to go in. But let's be real here: There's manipulating debate, and there's letting water run downhill. This girl is in the latter category in spades. Horowitz at worst did nothing more than point downhill and ask if that's the direction she wanted to go in; she did the rest on her own.
And her enabler...uh, professor, would have me believe this is a very nice girl---who hates jews.
Hmmm...Googling..."Leon Festinger", "cognitive dissonance"..."One may try to forget or reduce the importance of those cognitions that are in a dissonant relationship (Festinger 1956: 25-26)."
Posted by: Paul S. at May 14, 2010 4:52 pm
Hmmm...Googling..."Leon Festinger", "cognitive dissonance"..."One may try to forget or reduce the importance of those cognitions that are in a dissonant relationship (Festinger 1956: 25-26)."
Anyway, the fact remains that the word "Palestine" has its origins from Roman times, i.e. the Roman conquerors named that region "Palestine" as a means of erasing Jewish history.
I won't argue the latter point, but "Palestine" is a transliteration of the Semitic "F-l-s-t-n" (Philistine) into Roman characters. No written vowels or softened consonants means one simply makes the best ignorant shot one can. But even "Flstn" comes from Palashtu/Parashtu, during Ramses III.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Origin_of_name
That said, the main point of Roman imposition of the name, was just a blatant attempt to humiliate and subjugate the Jews.
Your enemy does not give a damn, why should you?
Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy.
Posted by: gus3 at May 14, 2010 5:06 pm
I won't argue the latter point, but "Palestine" is a transliteration of the Semitic "F-l-s-t-n" (Philistine) into Roman characters. No written vowels or softened consonants means one simply makes the best ignorant shot one can. But even "Flstn" comes from Palashtu/Parashtu, during Ramses III.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Origin_of_name
That said, the main point of Roman imposition of the name, was just a blatant attempt to humiliate and subjugate the Jews.
Your enemy does not give a damn, why should you?
Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy.
It's true that the Romans renamed Judea (Land of Israel/Zion, what have you) to Palestine. As I believe was stated here already, the Philistines migrated to the southern coastal region of Israel from the Greek Islands, and by the time of the Judean defeat, no longer existed as a culture. Calling Judea "Philistine"--the Jews former enemy--was simply a way of rubbing salt in the wounds of the defeated Jews.
Now, as we know Rome, had a tremendous impact on the cultures of most of southern and Western Europe. The Byzantine Empire, the successor of the eastern half of the Roman Empire, also continued the *new* tradition of calling Judea "Palestine." Thus, the term Palestine entered the consciousness of Byzantine subjects and Europeans.
Next came the Arabs, and they dubbed the southern portion of Israel as "Jund Filastine" and the northern half "Jund al-Urdunn." They simply used the term Filastine because that's what it was called by the time they invaded. They did not come to rule a distinct group of people called Palestinians with a distinct Palestinian culture.
Next came the Seljuk Turks, and later the Ottomans. The Ottomans divided the land into three regions: The Sanjaks of Akko, Nablus--both of which were part of the Beirut Wilayat--and the Mutasarriflklic of Jerusalem.
Note, the Muslim Ottomans did not see fit to identify what is now Israel as Palestine, or even to create borders that corresponded to what some people called "Palestine." Further, as far as history tells us, the people dwelling in that land did not call themselves Palestinians. Thus, Muslim Ottomans didn't recognize a Palestine because there was no Palestine to recognize.
After the British wrested control of that part of the Levant from the Ottomans, they dubbed it "Palestine" because, as Europeans, they knew the area as Palestine.
After that, anybody who lived within the borders of the British Palestine Mandate were called "Palestinian" by default. So yes, until 1948 the Jews were also "Palestinians." Interestingly, some Arabs actually scoffed at being called Palestinian. Thy did not identify as Palestinian; although that doesn't mean they don't have a connection and claim to the territory. Their connection was based on the fact that they lived there, not because they had a distinct Palestinian Arab identity that made them a unique people from the other Arabs that live in present day Jordan, or Lebanon, or Syria, Egypt or Iraq. In fact, some considered themselves to be Syrian:
According to the Minutes of the Ninth Session of the League of Nations' Permanent Mandate Commission, "Southern Syria" was suggested as the name of the Mandate for Palestine in the Arabic language. The reports says the following: "Colonel Symes explained that the country was described as 'Palestine' by Europeans and as 'Falestin' by the Arabs. The Hebrew name for the country was the designation 'Land of Israel', and the Government, to meet Jewish wishes, had agreed that the word "Palestine" in Hebrew characters should be followed in all official documents by the initials which stood for that designation. As a set-off to this, certain of the Arab politicians suggested that the country should be called 'Southern Syria' in order to emphasise its close relation with another Arab State"[4]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Syria
Hafez al-Assad coveted Palestine, and his son probably still does, as he does Lebanon.
Another point: by refusing to settle any Palestinian refugees, the Arabs in a sense helped create a Palestinian identity. Surely, if the Jews were able to create an Israeli identity out of Jews from Iran, Iraq, Poland, Germany, Yemen, France, etc., the Arabs could have done the same with Arabs from "Palestine." It's quite obvious, then, that the Palestinians are and have been used as a political tool against Israel.
My argument, however, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a Palestinian state of some sort in the WB and Gaza. It does mean, though, that there is nothing distinctive about Palestinian Arabs as a group of people, other than they've been treated like shit by their Arab brethren.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 5:11 pm
Now, as we know Rome, had a tremendous impact on the cultures of most of southern and Western Europe. The Byzantine Empire, the successor of the eastern half of the Roman Empire, also continued the *new* tradition of calling Judea "Palestine." Thus, the term Palestine entered the consciousness of Byzantine subjects and Europeans.
Next came the Arabs, and they dubbed the southern portion of Israel as "Jund Filastine" and the northern half "Jund al-Urdunn." They simply used the term Filastine because that's what it was called by the time they invaded. They did not come to rule a distinct group of people called Palestinians with a distinct Palestinian culture.
Next came the Seljuk Turks, and later the Ottomans. The Ottomans divided the land into three regions: The Sanjaks of Akko, Nablus--both of which were part of the Beirut Wilayat--and the Mutasarriflklic of Jerusalem.
Note, the Muslim Ottomans did not see fit to identify what is now Israel as Palestine, or even to create borders that corresponded to what some people called "Palestine." Further, as far as history tells us, the people dwelling in that land did not call themselves Palestinians. Thus, Muslim Ottomans didn't recognize a Palestine because there was no Palestine to recognize.
After the British wrested control of that part of the Levant from the Ottomans, they dubbed it "Palestine" because, as Europeans, they knew the area as Palestine.
After that, anybody who lived within the borders of the British Palestine Mandate were called "Palestinian" by default. So yes, until 1948 the Jews were also "Palestinians." Interestingly, some Arabs actually scoffed at being called Palestinian. Thy did not identify as Palestinian; although that doesn't mean they don't have a connection and claim to the territory. Their connection was based on the fact that they lived there, not because they had a distinct Palestinian Arab identity that made them a unique people from the other Arabs that live in present day Jordan, or Lebanon, or Syria, Egypt or Iraq. In fact, some considered themselves to be Syrian:
According to the Minutes of the Ninth Session of the League of Nations' Permanent Mandate Commission, "Southern Syria" was suggested as the name of the Mandate for Palestine in the Arabic language. The reports says the following: "Colonel Symes explained that the country was described as 'Palestine' by Europeans and as 'Falestin' by the Arabs. The Hebrew name for the country was the designation 'Land of Israel', and the Government, to meet Jewish wishes, had agreed that the word "Palestine" in Hebrew characters should be followed in all official documents by the initials which stood for that designation. As a set-off to this, certain of the Arab politicians suggested that the country should be called 'Southern Syria' in order to emphasise its close relation with another Arab State"[4]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Syria
Hafez al-Assad coveted Palestine, and his son probably still does, as he does Lebanon.
Another point: by refusing to settle any Palestinian refugees, the Arabs in a sense helped create a Palestinian identity. Surely, if the Jews were able to create an Israeli identity out of Jews from Iran, Iraq, Poland, Germany, Yemen, France, etc., the Arabs could have done the same with Arabs from "Palestine." It's quite obvious, then, that the Palestinians are and have been used as a political tool against Israel.
My argument, however, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a Palestinian state of some sort in the WB and Gaza. It does mean, though, that there is nothing distinctive about Palestinian Arabs as a group of people, other than they've been treated like shit by their Arab brethren.
Here is a quick snippet addressing the meat of the exchange between Horowitz and Ms. Albahri.
Her feelings could not be more simple and clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FwIC7agtqE
Posted by: linc at May 14, 2010 5:15 pm
Her feelings could not be more simple and clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FwIC7agtqE
Slightly off topic, but chilling: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3889542,00.html
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 5:31 pm
gus3: "Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy."
Yes, and being alive or dead will differentiate you from your enemy too. Just make sure in the end you are the one who is alive.
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 5:41 pm
Yes, and being alive or dead will differentiate you from your enemy too. Just make sure in the end you are the one who is alive.
Yes, and being alive or dead will differentiate you from your enemy too.
No, leo, you're wrong. It is not a "kill or be killed" world, except for fanatics stuck in the 7th century. That kind of thinking only gets martyrs for both sides, and it's a game the ummah has become very good at. Why do you think Richard Reid wasn't executed? Because we refused to play into their hands.
Posted by: gus3 at May 14, 2010 6:44 pm
No, leo, you're wrong. It is not a "kill or be killed" world, except for fanatics stuck in the 7th century. That kind of thinking only gets martyrs for both sides, and it's a game the ummah has become very good at. Why do you think Richard Reid wasn't executed? Because we refused to play into their hands.
"It is not a "kill or be killed" world, except for fanatics stuck in the 7th century"
Ri-i-ight. And whom do you think you are dealing with.
"That kind of thinking only gets martyrs for both sides, and it's a game the ummah has become very good at."
Actually no. Umah got very good at producing theatrics, but not results.
"Why do you think Richard Reid wasn't executed?"
I do not know why. My guess, he is not a threat anymore.
"Because we refused to play into their hands."
You said that already:
"Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy."
This is circular argument, which has no meaning because it tries to prove itself. You'd be better off by declaring it an axiom from the very beginning. See how many would agree.
BTW, this argument may make you feel good, but it also will result in your death in the end. When you are dealing with determined and resolute enemy you must be determined and resolute yourself or else.
Posted by: leo at May 14, 2010 6:57 pm
Ri-i-ight. And whom do you think you are dealing with.
"That kind of thinking only gets martyrs for both sides, and it's a game the ummah has become very good at."
Actually no. Umah got very good at producing theatrics, but not results.
"Why do you think Richard Reid wasn't executed?"
I do not know why. My guess, he is not a threat anymore.
"Because we refused to play into their hands."
You said that already:
"Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy."
This is circular argument, which has no meaning because it tries to prove itself. You'd be better off by declaring it an axiom from the very beginning. See how many would agree.
BTW, this argument may make you feel good, but it also will result in your death in the end. When you are dealing with determined and resolute enemy you must be determined and resolute yourself or else.
Harold,
To summarize the situation between 1918 and 1948...the Jews in Palestine thought of themselves as Palestinians and their institutions reflected that ie Palestine Post, Palestine Electric Corp. Palestine Philharmonic Orchestra etc.
The Arabs on the other hand considered themselves Arabs of Palestine, never Palestinians (that didn't come until much later and not in a major way til after 1967.
Initially they wanted a unified country comprising Mandatory Palestine, Syria and Transjordan but after about 1921, many of the leaders felt they wanted a separate entity. They always rejected the concept of Mandatory Palestine and I think it likely that if they had succeeded the country would never have been called Palestine.
The concept of "Palestine united with other countries did persist until after 1948 in one form or another being revived by the Syrians foremost but also by the Iraqis and the Jordanians.
Much of the machinations are described in many different texts but a few of the older ones include "The Struggle for Palestine" by J.C. Hurewitz published in 1950 and in revised paperback in 1976,
"Crossroads to Israel" by Christopher Sykes
A more personal account is that of Richard Meinerzhagen who was a British Mandatory officer. I don't remember the name of his book, and
"Cairo to Damascus" by John Roy Carlson
It will be interesting to see what Ephraim Kirsh's new book has to say ("Palestine Betrayed")
He does touch on the subject in his "Islamic Imperialism".
Posted by: yesjb at May 14, 2010 6:58 pm
To summarize the situation between 1918 and 1948...the Jews in Palestine thought of themselves as Palestinians and their institutions reflected that ie Palestine Post, Palestine Electric Corp. Palestine Philharmonic Orchestra etc.
The Arabs on the other hand considered themselves Arabs of Palestine, never Palestinians (that didn't come until much later and not in a major way til after 1967.
Initially they wanted a unified country comprising Mandatory Palestine, Syria and Transjordan but after about 1921, many of the leaders felt they wanted a separate entity. They always rejected the concept of Mandatory Palestine and I think it likely that if they had succeeded the country would never have been called Palestine.
The concept of "Palestine united with other countries did persist until after 1948 in one form or another being revived by the Syrians foremost but also by the Iraqis and the Jordanians.
Much of the machinations are described in many different texts but a few of the older ones include "The Struggle for Palestine" by J.C. Hurewitz published in 1950 and in revised paperback in 1976,
"Crossroads to Israel" by Christopher Sykes
A more personal account is that of Richard Meinerzhagen who was a British Mandatory officer. I don't remember the name of his book, and
"Cairo to Damascus" by John Roy Carlson
It will be interesting to see what Ephraim Kirsh's new book has to say ("Palestine Betrayed")
He does touch on the subject in his "Islamic Imperialism".
Thanks for the info yesjb. What would you call the Arabs who moved to Palestine before 1948?
What defines a "Palestinian" who is living in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, or the Gulf?
What is the ancestry of modern Palestinians?
Posted by: anan at May 14, 2010 7:25 pm
What defines a "Palestinian" who is living in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, or the Gulf?
What is the ancestry of modern Palestinians?
It's not possible to say what the ancestry of the Palestinians are. Some have Jewish ancestry, no doubt, and Arab ancestry, probably Greek, even some European from the Crusades. We know that some of them have Egyptian ancestry (al-Masri, a well known surname among Palestinians means "the Egyptian in Arabic). There was a significant migration from the Hauron region of Syria. I knew an Israeli-Arab who on the one hand boasted about his Palestinians roots one day while also mentioning that he's descended from Bedouin from Iraq, although that's highly anecdotal. I knew a Palestinian from East Jerusalem who claims his ancestors came with Saladin.
If you look at Palestinians you will see that they come in all shades. I've seen blond Palestinians and redheads. If you drive east of Jerusalem down to the Jordan Valley and head north you'll notice dark black Palestinians who I have been told are descended from Sudanese slaves. Whether that's true or not, they look completely different from the average Palestinian.
Posted by: semite5000 at May 14, 2010 8:17 pm
If you look at Palestinians you will see that they come in all shades. I've seen blond Palestinians and redheads. If you drive east of Jerusalem down to the Jordan Valley and head north you'll notice dark black Palestinians who I have been told are descended from Sudanese slaves. Whether that's true or not, they look completely different from the average Palestinian.
Lets be clear, Anand...
The area which was called "Palestine" in the 20th cetury encompassed modern-day Israel, the area of Gaza and the area between Israel and Iraq including the west bank of the Jordan River and present-day Jordan... Mandatory Palestine. It was all part of the Ottoman empire and before that other Muslim groups controlled it.
Its only really constant historical reference was to the Jews who never completely left but who returned in numbers from the late 19th century.
other groups came and went from the surrounding areas of the Ottoman empire and after 1920, thanks to the Sykes-Picot agreement, from Syria, trans-Jordan, Iraq and even Egypt.
The modern middle East is a creation largely but not completely of the then colonial powers, excluding Iran and Egypt and Israel.
Now Anand, you might disagree about Israel but just remember that it is here today despite the Great Powers, not because of them. One only needs to look at the Peel and Woodward Commission maps to see what a total f'n joke they were!
The great powers including the US were against Israel's creation in 1948 motivated largely by oil (except for Truman) and that included George Marshall and James Forrestal.
The actions of His Majesty's Government under Attlee and Bevin were particularly odious.
BTW, I would call a "Palestinian" who came before 1948 a Jew.
The Arabs who immigrated with British connivance into the Mandate mainly because of the economic improvements, remained as Arabs wherever they originated. They called themselves that to differentiate themselves from the Jews and to have a sense of unification with other Arabs. They never formed any governing bodies such as the Yishuv, although they did form some political parties which seemed to be constantly at loggerheads.
And until the war, were general controlled by Haj Amin Hussaini and his relatives who never ceased their political intrigues including murder against the slightly more moderate family, the Nashabibis (sort of like Hamas and Fatah).
Now, anand you can hint all you want about the modern Palestinians but I have said this before, they are only Palestinians by virtue of Jewish victories in 1948-49 and 1967.
If the Arabs had won there would be no Palestine. The Mandate would have been carved up between the other powers. Its likely Jordan would be part of Syria too.
Ironic isn't it?
Posted by: yesjb at May 14, 2010 9:00 pm
The area which was called "Palestine" in the 20th cetury encompassed modern-day Israel, the area of Gaza and the area between Israel and Iraq including the west bank of the Jordan River and present-day Jordan... Mandatory Palestine. It was all part of the Ottoman empire and before that other Muslim groups controlled it.
Its only really constant historical reference was to the Jews who never completely left but who returned in numbers from the late 19th century.
other groups came and went from the surrounding areas of the Ottoman empire and after 1920, thanks to the Sykes-Picot agreement, from Syria, trans-Jordan, Iraq and even Egypt.
The modern middle East is a creation largely but not completely of the then colonial powers, excluding Iran and Egypt and Israel.
Now Anand, you might disagree about Israel but just remember that it is here today despite the Great Powers, not because of them. One only needs to look at the Peel and Woodward Commission maps to see what a total f'n joke they were!
The great powers including the US were against Israel's creation in 1948 motivated largely by oil (except for Truman) and that included George Marshall and James Forrestal.
The actions of His Majesty's Government under Attlee and Bevin were particularly odious.
BTW, I would call a "Palestinian" who came before 1948 a Jew.
The Arabs who immigrated with British connivance into the Mandate mainly because of the economic improvements, remained as Arabs wherever they originated. They called themselves that to differentiate themselves from the Jews and to have a sense of unification with other Arabs. They never formed any governing bodies such as the Yishuv, although they did form some political parties which seemed to be constantly at loggerheads.
And until the war, were general controlled by Haj Amin Hussaini and his relatives who never ceased their political intrigues including murder against the slightly more moderate family, the Nashabibis (sort of like Hamas and Fatah).
Now, anand you can hint all you want about the modern Palestinians but I have said this before, they are only Palestinians by virtue of Jewish victories in 1948-49 and 1967.
If the Arabs had won there would be no Palestine. The Mandate would have been carved up between the other powers. Its likely Jordan would be part of Syria too.
Ironic isn't it?
Jumanah Albahri has written a statement regarding the UCSD event.
Perhaps it should be read before more individuals make assumptions about what really happened that night or make additional comments about who she is thought to be.
The entire video is not being played for obvious reasons, and Mr. Horowitz knew exactly what he was doing when he manipulated the question and exploited a young lady for his own pleasure and carefully planned personal agenda. He said it himself, he has done this to other young Muslim men and women.
Is it in the news that Jumanah marched against racism on the UCSD campus? And stood firm with her fellow students, never missed a protest or a sit-in. Is it in the news that Jumanah volunteered to speak at the Racism/Holocaust event at UCSD last week, and that she spoke with conviction against genocide?
Or the fact that she sits and listens to the stories as told by our American soldiers, old soldiers that find peace and humor within a few short moments of her company.
No, you won't find those everyday stories on the internet or in the news. Those types of stories won't bring speaking engagements or interviews filled with sensation and intrigue.
Those types of stories won't make one hate, and send chills up our spines. But this "story" did, and I think deep inside of each of us, we like it. It gives us something more to hate.
Posted by: Kelly Brown at May 15, 2010 12:02 am
Perhaps it should be read before more individuals make assumptions about what really happened that night or make additional comments about who she is thought to be.
The entire video is not being played for obvious reasons, and Mr. Horowitz knew exactly what he was doing when he manipulated the question and exploited a young lady for his own pleasure and carefully planned personal agenda. He said it himself, he has done this to other young Muslim men and women.
Is it in the news that Jumanah marched against racism on the UCSD campus? And stood firm with her fellow students, never missed a protest or a sit-in. Is it in the news that Jumanah volunteered to speak at the Racism/Holocaust event at UCSD last week, and that she spoke with conviction against genocide?
Or the fact that she sits and listens to the stories as told by our American soldiers, old soldiers that find peace and humor within a few short moments of her company.
No, you won't find those everyday stories on the internet or in the news. Those types of stories won't bring speaking engagements or interviews filled with sensation and intrigue.
Those types of stories won't make one hate, and send chills up our spines. But this "story" did, and I think deep inside of each of us, we like it. It gives us something more to hate.
I don't buy it, Kelly.
Or the fact that she sits and listens to the stories as told by our American soldiers, old soldiers that find peace and humor within a few short moments of her company.
I especially don't buy that.
Is it in the news that Jumanah marched against racism on the UCSD campus?
A Zionism=Racism march doesn't count.
It gives us something more to hate.
I'm not the one looking for something to hate. She is.
Watch the video.
Look. I met half-way reasonable people in Lebanon when I lived there who stuck up for Hezbollah for reasons that sort of make sense, reasons that are too complex to get into here but which I explain in the book I'm writing.
She isn't one of them. She's the absolute worst sort of Hezbollah supporter. She put herself on record as being in favor of a position so extreme that it's controversial whether or not Hezbollah's Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah even actually said it.
But she said it. On video.
It is spectacularly obtuse of you to defend an advocate of genocide while trashing one of her would-be victims at the same time.
She needs to either own what she said or recant it, while you need to take the plugs out of your ears.
And you still seem to not understand that people like you, not her, are the subject of my post and Paul Berman's book.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 12:51 am
Or the fact that she sits and listens to the stories as told by our American soldiers, old soldiers that find peace and humor within a few short moments of her company.
I especially don't buy that.
Is it in the news that Jumanah marched against racism on the UCSD campus?
A Zionism=Racism march doesn't count.
It gives us something more to hate.
I'm not the one looking for something to hate. She is.
Watch the video.
Look. I met half-way reasonable people in Lebanon when I lived there who stuck up for Hezbollah for reasons that sort of make sense, reasons that are too complex to get into here but which I explain in the book I'm writing.
She isn't one of them. She's the absolute worst sort of Hezbollah supporter. She put herself on record as being in favor of a position so extreme that it's controversial whether or not Hezbollah's Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah even actually said it.
But she said it. On video.
It is spectacularly obtuse of you to defend an advocate of genocide while trashing one of her would-be victims at the same time.
She needs to either own what she said or recant it, while you need to take the plugs out of your ears.
And you still seem to not understand that people like you, not her, are the subject of my post and Paul Berman's book.
I find the ideas she chose (key word) to support abhorrent, but I don't hate this young person, Kelly. Maybe she'll have a what-was-I-thinking moment when (if) she matures. Maybe not. Which then creates an ongoing problem.
Part of that maturation process, a large part, is owning your decisions; it's what responsible adults do. It's what other responsible adults, unlike her professor, help young people achieve.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 15, 2010 1:30 am
Part of that maturation process, a large part, is owning your decisions; it's what responsible adults do. It's what other responsible adults, unlike her professor, help young people achieve.
Jumanah Albahri has written a statement regarding the UCSD event.
Got a link? I haven't been able to find any statement by her on the internet.
I was also unable to substantiate your accounts of her activities. And I did look, believe it or not.
For instance, this:
http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/sites/hlhw/events.html
Does not mention her name at all.
Do you know if she was one of the protesters at the student senate meeting on divestment last week? If so, I would really like to hear from her what her moral basis is for opposing "zionist apartheid" when she thinks Jews deserve to be killed just because they are Jews. Wouldn't you agree that Israelis would have to be clinically insane to open their society to people who want to exterminate them?
Posted by: Craig at May 15, 2010 1:45 am
Got a link? I haven't been able to find any statement by her on the internet.
I was also unable to substantiate your accounts of her activities. And I did look, believe it or not.
For instance, this:
http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/sites/hlhw/events.html
Does not mention her name at all.
Do you know if she was one of the protesters at the student senate meeting on divestment last week? If so, I would really like to hear from her what her moral basis is for opposing "zionist apartheid" when she thinks Jews deserve to be killed just because they are Jews. Wouldn't you agree that Israelis would have to be clinically insane to open their society to people who want to exterminate them?
I'm trying to help two young people distinguish entitlements from earned privileges, a prerequisite for the latter being owning decisions that do or don't earn those privileges.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 15, 2010 1:52 am
Kelly. do you support genocide, yes or no??
Simple isn't it.
But of course I'm manipulating you, aren't I?
Yeah and Hitler made the trains run on time ...so how could he be all bad??
You just don't get it do you?
Posted by: yesjb at May 15, 2010 4:07 am
Simple isn't it.
But of course I'm manipulating you, aren't I?
Yeah and Hitler made the trains run on time ...so how could he be all bad??
You just don't get it do you?
Draw a cartoon of Mohammad and your life is in danger.
State you want to see all Jews hunted down and exterminated and educated Americans will find excuses......
Yes, Michael, Kelly appears to be an example of what your last two posts focus on......
http://www.workers.org/2010/world/iran_0520/ twisted logic from the Left Side
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=126455 and another example.....a former US representative.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 15, 2010 6:57 am
State you want to see all Jews hunted down and exterminated and educated Americans will find excuses......
Yes, Michael, Kelly appears to be an example of what your last two posts focus on......
http://www.workers.org/2010/world/iran_0520/ twisted logic from the Left Side
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=126455 and another example.....a former US representative.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100515/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran I wonder how this will get spun. Let me guess, this is just one cleric. What he thinks doesn't matter. He only feels this way because we were not nice to him. He is just talking off the top of his head. He has been manipulated by US.
The message is clear on the internet. Maybe Memri should be require viewing in high school: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4163.htm
education al la Hamas http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4161.htm does the good teacher approve?
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4147.htm moral education a la Iran
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4160.htm you know where this is leading...
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 15, 2010 9:42 am
The message is clear on the internet. Maybe Memri should be require viewing in high school: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4163.htm
education al la Hamas http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4161.htm does the good teacher approve?
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4147.htm moral education a la Iran
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4160.htm you know where this is leading...
Kelly Brown, thanks for your comments. You appear to be Jumanah Albahri's friend and your personal loyalty to your friend is understandable.
I am trying very hard to see things from Jumanah Albahri's point of view; and it isn't easy. Could you provide a link to her statement; perhaps clarify what you think she meant yourself?
I thought Mr. Horowitz should have treated Jumanah Albahri more respectfully and with more heart before her outburst; and I think you are right that Mr. Horowitz tried to goad her. If you noticed above; I criticized Mr. Horowitz behavior in the video.
However, in the work place of most companies there are many people far worse than Mr. Horowitz. It is completely unacceptable Jumanah Albahri allowed Mr. Horowitz to play mind games on her.
She has to at the very least take ownership of the fact that she is mentally excitable to the degree that it will be difficult for her to hold a job in the real economy. She has to work on being less emotional and increasing her inner equanimity.
I am not being facetious. Jumanah Albahri's friends and family such as yourself need to help her with this; because otherwise other people with mess with her and hurt her for the rest of her life.
Kelly Brown, Jumanah Albahri might be incredibly naive, uninformed, misinformed, foolish, and easily manipulated.
But without more data; those of us from a distance cannot discount the fact that she might really hold extreme views.
There are many in the Arab world who hold extreme views; as I am sure you will acknowledge.
Kelly Brown, many Arabs cheered wildly when Takfiri terrorists mass murdered Iraqi civilians in terrorist attacks [most of the suicide bombers in Iraq were non Iraqi Sunni Arabs.] Part of me fears that that Jumanah Albahri could be one of the crazies.
I look forward to more information about Jumanah Albahri's views, her statements, or your own clarifications regarding her.
Kelly Brown, please note that Jumanah Albahri is not being criticized for being partly sympathetic to Hezbollah, but because she implied that she supported gathering the Jews in Israel and killing them.
There are many who are partly sympathetic to Hezbollah. Hell; PM Maliki, many of the Najaf Clergy, Jafari, Amar al Hakim, President Talabani, are all friends with top Hezbollah leaders.
Posted by: anan at May 15, 2010 9:53 am
I am trying very hard to see things from Jumanah Albahri's point of view; and it isn't easy. Could you provide a link to her statement; perhaps clarify what you think she meant yourself?
I thought Mr. Horowitz should have treated Jumanah Albahri more respectfully and with more heart before her outburst; and I think you are right that Mr. Horowitz tried to goad her. If you noticed above; I criticized Mr. Horowitz behavior in the video.
However, in the work place of most companies there are many people far worse than Mr. Horowitz. It is completely unacceptable Jumanah Albahri allowed Mr. Horowitz to play mind games on her.
She has to at the very least take ownership of the fact that she is mentally excitable to the degree that it will be difficult for her to hold a job in the real economy. She has to work on being less emotional and increasing her inner equanimity.
I am not being facetious. Jumanah Albahri's friends and family such as yourself need to help her with this; because otherwise other people with mess with her and hurt her for the rest of her life.
Kelly Brown, Jumanah Albahri might be incredibly naive, uninformed, misinformed, foolish, and easily manipulated.
But without more data; those of us from a distance cannot discount the fact that she might really hold extreme views.
There are many in the Arab world who hold extreme views; as I am sure you will acknowledge.
Kelly Brown, many Arabs cheered wildly when Takfiri terrorists mass murdered Iraqi civilians in terrorist attacks [most of the suicide bombers in Iraq were non Iraqi Sunni Arabs.] Part of me fears that that Jumanah Albahri could be one of the crazies.
I look forward to more information about Jumanah Albahri's views, her statements, or your own clarifications regarding her.
Kelly Brown, please note that Jumanah Albahri is not being criticized for being partly sympathetic to Hezbollah, but because she implied that she supported gathering the Jews in Israel and killing them.
There are many who are partly sympathetic to Hezbollah. Hell; PM Maliki, many of the Najaf Clergy, Jafari, Amar al Hakim, President Talabani, are all friends with top Hezbollah leaders.
From the Associated press:
"TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - A radical cleric called Saturday for the creation of a "Greater Iran" that would rule over the entire Middle East and Central Asia, in an event that he said would herald the coming of Islam's expected messiah.
Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi said the creation of what he calls an Islamic United States is a central aim of the political party he leads called Hezbollah, or Party of God, and that he hoped to make it a reality if they win the next presidential election."
We have to stop these people. This is the same kind of talk this world has seen before. People who would want to conquer large areas of the planet and put it under their domination need to be stopped early. History has shown that ignoring talk like this leads to catastrophe. Unfortunately history also has shown that we always ignore it until it is too late.
Posted by: crosspatch at May 15, 2010 9:54 am
"TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - A radical cleric called Saturday for the creation of a "Greater Iran" that would rule over the entire Middle East and Central Asia, in an event that he said would herald the coming of Islam's expected messiah.
Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi said the creation of what he calls an Islamic United States is a central aim of the political party he leads called Hezbollah, or Party of God, and that he hoped to make it a reality if they win the next presidential election."
We have to stop these people. This is the same kind of talk this world has seen before. People who would want to conquer large areas of the planet and put it under their domination need to be stopped early. History has shown that ignoring talk like this leads to catastrophe. Unfortunately history also has shown that we always ignore it until it is too late.
crosspatch, Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi is a fool without the power to match his ambitions.
The Iraqis and the global Shiite clergy will stop him.
The best way to make sure that wackos such as Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi don't go off the deep end is to train and equip the Iraqi Security Forces.
It would be nice if Obama transfers 110 used F16s or 112 used F15s to the Iraqi Air Force [that the USAF are retiring.] It would also be good if Iraq ups its orders for new F16s from 24 to 96; or if Iraq places an order for Dassault Rafale 4.5 gen fighters.
The Iraqis know what to do with the likes of Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi.
Posted by: anan at May 15, 2010 10:01 am
The Iraqis and the global Shiite clergy will stop him.
The best way to make sure that wackos such as Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi don't go off the deep end is to train and equip the Iraqi Security Forces.
It would be nice if Obama transfers 110 used F16s or 112 used F15s to the Iraqi Air Force [that the USAF are retiring.] It would also be good if Iraq ups its orders for new F16s from 24 to 96; or if Iraq places an order for Dassault Rafale 4.5 gen fighters.
The Iraqis know what to do with the likes of Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi.
Kelly Brown, if it isn't appropriate or too personal; I would be interested in asking Jumanah Albahri about her 3aqeedah (what islamic theology she believes in.) Is she truly respectful of all people of the book?
I would also like to explore the reasons Jumanah Albahri supports Nasrallah. I fear that Nasrallah represents the madhab of Ahul Bayt. Does this concern Jumanah Albahri?
Posted by: anan at May 15, 2010 10:16 am
I would also like to explore the reasons Jumanah Albahri supports Nasrallah. I fear that Nasrallah represents the madhab of Ahul Bayt. Does this concern Jumanah Albahri?
Anan; let me help; you with your semicolon issue:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon
Posted by: semite5000 at May 15, 2010 10:27 am
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon
Horowitz really cornered this student and when he stripped away her poor attempt to discredit his literature with the rhetorical question about the connection between "MSA and Jihad terrorist networks".
I could tell by her demeanor, body language and her verbal connector after she said her name that she wanted everyone to know what side she was on. Inviting everyone to a Hitler Youth rally was a particularly smooth move.
Posted by: Trickish_Knave at May 15, 2010 10:29 am
I could tell by her demeanor, body language and her verbal connector after she said her name that she wanted everyone to know what side she was on. Inviting everyone to a Hitler Youth rally was a particularly smooth move.
Anan: I am trying very hard to see things from Jumanah Albahri's point of view; and it isn't easy.
What's hard about it? She's a Hezbollah supporter. She's one of millions, and I've been writing about these people for years.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 11:41 am
What's hard about it? She's a Hezbollah supporter. She's one of millions, and I've been writing about these people for years.
Anan: I criticized Mr. Horowitz behavior in the video.
Why not try to understand his point of view? He's not the deranged one in this exchange. She is.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 11:42 am
Why not try to understand his point of view? He's not the deranged one in this exchange. She is.
Anan: Is she truly respectful of all people of the book?
Obviously she is not.
What's with you, anyway? Your repeated defense of political maniacs is precisely the reason Gary Rosen accuses you of being a political maniac.
I can see the difference, but I can also understand why he doesn't.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 11:46 am
Obviously she is not.
What's with you, anyway? Your repeated defense of political maniacs is precisely the reason Gary Rosen accuses you of being a political maniac.
I can see the difference, but I can also understand why he doesn't.
"And I think that's fair to say since Hezbollah has been active in helping to restore the old synagogue in downtown Beirut."
-Abu
Is that because they feel bad about blowing up a synagogue in Buenos Aires?
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 12:24 pm
-Abu
Is that because they feel bad about blowing up a synagogue in Buenos Aires?
First let me say, the "Hitler Youth" comment was actually Mr. Horowitz's statement, that Jumanah hurled back at him. It was never her words. But you will never see that in the video.
Secondly, when she spoke/answered, it was not about genocide or a 2nd holocaust. It was an answer to a previous question. Never about genocide.
Thirdly, she is a Semitic, and has Jewish heritage. So why would she be a racist against herself? Doesn't make sense does it?
Lastly, she does not support terrorism, genocide, racism, and has demonstrated in her short life quite the opposite.
This whole situation has been completely taken out of context, and a young girl is being exploited and used to fuel an agenda that is far larger than her initial question.
Posted by: Kelly Brown at May 15, 2010 12:38 pm
Secondly, when she spoke/answered, it was not about genocide or a 2nd holocaust. It was an answer to a previous question. Never about genocide.
Thirdly, she is a Semitic, and has Jewish heritage. So why would she be a racist against herself? Doesn't make sense does it?
Lastly, she does not support terrorism, genocide, racism, and has demonstrated in her short life quite the opposite.
This whole situation has been completely taken out of context, and a young girl is being exploited and used to fuel an agenda that is far larger than her initial question.
Kelly: Lastly, she does not support terrorism, genocide, racism, and has demonstrated in her short life quite the opposite.
Now that's just bullshit. She's on record as a supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah.
The Hitler Youth comment was clearly a joke, but the rest of what she said wasn't.
Don't blame Horowitz for her own behavior. It isn't even remotely possible for anyone to manipulate me into supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. She was worried about being arrested if she said any more about Hamas, for crying out loud.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 12:45 pm
Now that's just bullshit. She's on record as a supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah.
The Hitler Youth comment was clearly a joke, but the rest of what she said wasn't.
Don't blame Horowitz for her own behavior. It isn't even remotely possible for anyone to manipulate me into supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. She was worried about being arrested if she said any more about Hamas, for crying out loud.
"Thirdly, she is a Semitic, and has Jewish heritage."
That's the oldest one in the book - "Arabs can't be antisemitic because they are Semites too". Antisemitic has a specific meaning so you only show what a fraud you are, Kelly, by playing these semantic games. As for her "Jewish heritage", spare us. Everyone on this blog who demonizes Israel claims to have relatives who are Holocaust survivors, or have "Jewish buds" like the repellent annihilationist anand. You aren't fooling anybody. Even if she does have some Jewish ancestors, so what? All it means is she wants to murder some people she is distantly related to.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 15, 2010 12:54 pm
That's the oldest one in the book - "Arabs can't be antisemitic because they are Semites too". Antisemitic has a specific meaning so you only show what a fraud you are, Kelly, by playing these semantic games. As for her "Jewish heritage", spare us. Everyone on this blog who demonizes Israel claims to have relatives who are Holocaust survivors, or have "Jewish buds" like the repellent annihilationist anand. You aren't fooling anybody. Even if she does have some Jewish ancestors, so what? All it means is she wants to murder some people she is distantly related to.
"Anyone know if Jumanah Imad Albahri was one of those protesters last week? Should the student senate be hearing from people who claim they want divestment, when they actually want genocide?"
-Craig
Craig, I want to know why so many American college students are being drawn into a cause that they have no connection to. What's happening in Palestine is minimal compared to the rest of the world...if college students want to stop killings, they should launch a campaign to stop using drugs so 300+ bullet ridden bodies don't have to be piled up in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, ever month.
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 12:55 pm
-Craig
Craig, I want to know why so many American college students are being drawn into a cause that they have no connection to. What's happening in Palestine is minimal compared to the rest of the world...if college students want to stop killings, they should launch a campaign to stop using drugs so 300+ bullet ridden bodies don't have to be piled up in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, ever month.
"Lastly, she does not support terrorism, genocide"
Classic Nazi big lie technique. The video proves the very opposite. It reminds me of the old Lenny Bruce routine about adultery, "Deny it, deny it. Even if they have pictures, deny it." Only this isn't quite so funny.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Classic Nazi big lie technique. The video proves the very opposite. It reminds me of the old Lenny Bruce routine about adultery, "Deny it, deny it. Even if they have pictures, deny it." Only this isn't quite so funny.
"The Iraqis know what to do with the likes of Ayatollah Mohammad Bagher Kharrazi."
Not if Maliki stays in charge...
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 1:01 pm
Not if Maliki stays in charge...
Kelly,
Do you have any evidence to back up your statements? So far, you have provided none. Until you do, I will see this video as proof that this student does indeed support Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as their actions.
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 1:03 pm
Do you have any evidence to back up your statements? So far, you have provided none. Until you do, I will see this video as proof that this student does indeed support Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as their actions.
C.H., Kelly doesn't need to provide evidence. She has FEELINGS and BELIEFS, and what's more important than that?
Posted by: semite5000 at May 15, 2010 1:20 pm
The Nazi Youth was a statement that Horowitz made. That is a fact, ask for the video clip. She just hurled back at him, ask the Vice-Chancellor of UCSD, she was there and heard it.
I'll bet you won't see it or hear it. But then again its so much easier to hate and spread the falsehoods, its sensationalism and that spreads.
Posted by: Kelly Brown at May 15, 2010 2:22 pm
I'll bet you won't see it or hear it. But then again its so much easier to hate and spread the falsehoods, its sensationalism and that spreads.
Ah ha, I thought so, Kelly!
Your from the same universe anand inhabits.
Your replies or rather evasions are incomprehensible, evasive and to be blunt excuses and lies!
Its impossible to give any credibility to your words.
Most people here are not fools, are able to sort things out in their minds when confronted with clear irrevocable evidence and do not walk around with their heads up their asses.
Posted by: yesjb at May 15, 2010 2:25 pm
Your from the same universe anand inhabits.
Your replies or rather evasions are incomprehensible, evasive and to be blunt excuses and lies!
Its impossible to give any credibility to your words.
Most people here are not fools, are able to sort things out in their minds when confronted with clear irrevocable evidence and do not walk around with their heads up their asses.
Sorry, should have been "You're from the same..."
Posted by: yesjb at May 15, 2010 2:26 pm
Kelly: its so much easier to hate
What is your problem? She's the hater, not us.
Do you defend skinheads, too?
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 2:58 pm
What is your problem? She's the hater, not us.
Do you defend skinheads, too?
CH: "Not if Maliki stays in charge... "
What are you getting at? Who has done more than PM Maliki to dismantle Shiite extremists? Ask some of our mutual Iraqi friends that question CH. Please don't fall for the Saudi PR campaign against PM Maliki.
CH, someone can be pro Palestinian, pro Israeli, pro Mexican, pro Thai, pro Congo, pro Sudanese, pro Somalian, pro Burmese, pro Zimbabwe simultaneously. I think you should respect and admire college students when they care for Palestinians; and inspire/challenge them to care about others to.
Yesjb; what exact comments of mine do you have a problem with? I am both pro Palestinian and pro Israeli; and proud of it. Aren't you also pro Palestinian and pro Israeli? 23% of Israeli citizens are Palestinians; so you can't be one without being the other.
Kelly, MJT and most of the commentators here acknowledge your point about the Nazi Youth comment.
I commend you for your loyalty. This said, please provide links to Jumanah Imad Albahri's statements or other video. Without that it is tough for us to understand where you and your friend Albahri are coming from.
"I'll bet you won't see it or hear it." Then please help us see it or hear it. Or ask Jumanah Imad Albahri if she is willing to defend herself and clarify her positions on this blog. I want to believe she is a well intentioned kid who blew it big time . . . and mispoke. Unfortunately, this isn't what the video of her above implies.
"But then again its so much easier to hate and spread the falsehoods, its sensationalism and that spreads." Maybe this applies to some people. But I don't think this applies to MJT, Craig, Leo, Abu Gorilla, or some other commentators here.
Jesus said to love thy enemy. I interpret this to mean to love and respect one's enemy.
Even if someone is a Takfiri; that doesn't mean that they can't transform and redeem themselves. Everyone can be redeemed or saved; if they chose to be. That is the power of compassion and respect.
So please don't assume that Albahri's critics don't respect her or have compassion for her.
I wouldn't automatically impugn the motives of commentators on this blog. They are writing what they believe to be true based on the information available to them. You don't have to agree with the people here; but perhaps you might express your disagreement agreeably and sweetly. There is never any edge to being impolite or harsh.
MJT, someone can be a supporter of Hezbollah because they believe the Shiites have gotten a raw deal in Lebanon for centuries at the hands of Sunni Arabs, Christians, Druze, Syrians, and Palestinians [yes even Palestinians in Lebanon don't behave well with Shiites.] How do we know that this isn't part of the reason Jumanah Imad Albahri is sympathetic to Hezbollah?
Many Palestinians supported Hamas because they were sick of corrupt Fatah guys doing a wretched job with governance, the Palestinian security forces, running the education system, and with facilitating private sector business development. Hamas also told voters that they planned to maintain a long term Hudna with Israel. Personally, I think Palestinians should support Mustafa Barghouti rather than Hamas; but for whatever reason something like 25% to 27% of Palestinians support Hamas. We should respect their right to do so; and the right of Americans like Jumanah Imad Albahri to make up their own minds about Hamas.
If Jumanah Albahri is willing to come on this blog and defend herself, I would ask her to explain her 3aqeedah. I would also ask her why she supports Sayyed Nasrallah. Is Albahri concerned that Nasrallah represents the madhab of Ahul Bayt?
Kelly:
"Secondly, when she spoke/answered, it was not about genocide or a 2nd holocaust. It was an answer to a previous question. Never about genocide."
Please provide video links or documentation.
"she is a Semitic, and has Jewish heritage. So why would she be a racist against herself? Doesn't make sense does it? " Gary Rosen has a point. Jumanah Imad Albahri's ethnic heritage is irrelevant to the question of whether she is anti Jewish or not. Kelly, the truth is that I have seen a lot of anti Jewish sentiment among the faculty of Californian academic institutions among nonmuslims who might have had Jewish heritage. Given her foolish statement, is is legitimate to ask Jumanah Imad Albahri to defend herself against charges of being anti Jewish.
"This whole situation has been completely taken out of context, and a young girl is being exploited and used to fuel an agenda that is far larger than her initial question." Maybe. However, none of this excuses Jumanah Imad Albahri's outburst. This video is going to haunt her in possibly every job interview she will ever have in her life. Jumanah Imad Albahri is going to have to defend herself; and her friends such as yourself need to guide her how to do so.
My suggestion is she says something like: "I have a deep respect, admiration and affection for the Jewish people and faith. I misunderstood what Horowitz was asking me and responded to the wrong question. But that is no excuse. I messed up badly. I am sorry. I am sorry for everyone I offended. It was my fault. It won't happen again."
MJT, someone can criticize both Horowitz and Jumanah Imad Albahri. Horowitz should have known that Jumanah Imad Albahri was a naive and foolish girl and not try to manipulate her into saying something that could ruin her job search. When she messed up; he should have responded the way a Dad would respond when his daughter angrily and emotionally burst out that she wanted him dead. It wasn't clear to me from that clip that Horowitz cared for or respected Jumanah Imad Albahri; or wanted to help her help herself. Horowitz didn't seem to try to persuade her that her views harmed her, Arabs, muslims, everyone; and were unworthy of her.
Posted by: anan at May 15, 2010 4:07 pm
What are you getting at? Who has done more than PM Maliki to dismantle Shiite extremists? Ask some of our mutual Iraqi friends that question CH. Please don't fall for the Saudi PR campaign against PM Maliki.
CH, someone can be pro Palestinian, pro Israeli, pro Mexican, pro Thai, pro Congo, pro Sudanese, pro Somalian, pro Burmese, pro Zimbabwe simultaneously. I think you should respect and admire college students when they care for Palestinians; and inspire/challenge them to care about others to.
Yesjb; what exact comments of mine do you have a problem with? I am both pro Palestinian and pro Israeli; and proud of it. Aren't you also pro Palestinian and pro Israeli? 23% of Israeli citizens are Palestinians; so you can't be one without being the other.
Kelly, MJT and most of the commentators here acknowledge your point about the Nazi Youth comment.
I commend you for your loyalty. This said, please provide links to Jumanah Imad Albahri's statements or other video. Without that it is tough for us to understand where you and your friend Albahri are coming from.
"I'll bet you won't see it or hear it." Then please help us see it or hear it. Or ask Jumanah Imad Albahri if she is willing to defend herself and clarify her positions on this blog. I want to believe she is a well intentioned kid who blew it big time . . . and mispoke. Unfortunately, this isn't what the video of her above implies.
"But then again its so much easier to hate and spread the falsehoods, its sensationalism and that spreads." Maybe this applies to some people. But I don't think this applies to MJT, Craig, Leo, Abu Gorilla, or some other commentators here.
Jesus said to love thy enemy. I interpret this to mean to love and respect one's enemy.
Even if someone is a Takfiri; that doesn't mean that they can't transform and redeem themselves. Everyone can be redeemed or saved; if they chose to be. That is the power of compassion and respect.
So please don't assume that Albahri's critics don't respect her or have compassion for her.
I wouldn't automatically impugn the motives of commentators on this blog. They are writing what they believe to be true based on the information available to them. You don't have to agree with the people here; but perhaps you might express your disagreement agreeably and sweetly. There is never any edge to being impolite or harsh.
MJT, someone can be a supporter of Hezbollah because they believe the Shiites have gotten a raw deal in Lebanon for centuries at the hands of Sunni Arabs, Christians, Druze, Syrians, and Palestinians [yes even Palestinians in Lebanon don't behave well with Shiites.] How do we know that this isn't part of the reason Jumanah Imad Albahri is sympathetic to Hezbollah?
Many Palestinians supported Hamas because they were sick of corrupt Fatah guys doing a wretched job with governance, the Palestinian security forces, running the education system, and with facilitating private sector business development. Hamas also told voters that they planned to maintain a long term Hudna with Israel. Personally, I think Palestinians should support Mustafa Barghouti rather than Hamas; but for whatever reason something like 25% to 27% of Palestinians support Hamas. We should respect their right to do so; and the right of Americans like Jumanah Imad Albahri to make up their own minds about Hamas.
If Jumanah Albahri is willing to come on this blog and defend herself, I would ask her to explain her 3aqeedah. I would also ask her why she supports Sayyed Nasrallah. Is Albahri concerned that Nasrallah represents the madhab of Ahul Bayt?
Kelly:
"Secondly, when she spoke/answered, it was not about genocide or a 2nd holocaust. It was an answer to a previous question. Never about genocide."
Please provide video links or documentation.
"she is a Semitic, and has Jewish heritage. So why would she be a racist against herself? Doesn't make sense does it? " Gary Rosen has a point. Jumanah Imad Albahri's ethnic heritage is irrelevant to the question of whether she is anti Jewish or not. Kelly, the truth is that I have seen a lot of anti Jewish sentiment among the faculty of Californian academic institutions among nonmuslims who might have had Jewish heritage. Given her foolish statement, is is legitimate to ask Jumanah Imad Albahri to defend herself against charges of being anti Jewish.
"This whole situation has been completely taken out of context, and a young girl is being exploited and used to fuel an agenda that is far larger than her initial question." Maybe. However, none of this excuses Jumanah Imad Albahri's outburst. This video is going to haunt her in possibly every job interview she will ever have in her life. Jumanah Imad Albahri is going to have to defend herself; and her friends such as yourself need to guide her how to do so.
My suggestion is she says something like: "I have a deep respect, admiration and affection for the Jewish people and faith. I misunderstood what Horowitz was asking me and responded to the wrong question. But that is no excuse. I messed up badly. I am sorry. I am sorry for everyone I offended. It was my fault. It won't happen again."
MJT, someone can criticize both Horowitz and Jumanah Imad Albahri. Horowitz should have known that Jumanah Imad Albahri was a naive and foolish girl and not try to manipulate her into saying something that could ruin her job search. When she messed up; he should have responded the way a Dad would respond when his daughter angrily and emotionally burst out that she wanted him dead. It wasn't clear to me from that clip that Horowitz cared for or respected Jumanah Imad Albahri; or wanted to help her help herself. Horowitz didn't seem to try to persuade her that her views harmed her, Arabs, muslims, everyone; and were unworthy of her.
"Do you defend skinheads, too?"
Shouldn't we have compassion and respect for everyone, even skinheads? Shouldn't we offer them a chance to transform and help themselves? Someone can do great evil, but no one is pure evil. Can't everyone transform and redeem themselves?
Posted by: anan at May 15, 2010 4:14 pm
Shouldn't we have compassion and respect for everyone, even skinheads? Shouldn't we offer them a chance to transform and help themselves? Someone can do great evil, but no one is pure evil. Can't everyone transform and redeem themselves?
Anan: I think you should respect and admire college students when they care for Palestinians
Look, damnit. Supporting a mass-murdering terrorist organization does not in any way whatsoever equate with "caring for Palestinians." Your relentless obtuseness on this point is astonishing.
You seem to be entirely clueless that a large percentage of Palestinians detest Hamas, and that an even larger percentage of Lebansese are the enemies of Hezbollah.
If you genuinely cared about Palestinians, you should wish to see the terrorists who rule them and get them killed in stupid wars to be overthrown and disbanded.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 4:21 pm
Look, damnit. Supporting a mass-murdering terrorist organization does not in any way whatsoever equate with "caring for Palestinians." Your relentless obtuseness on this point is astonishing.
You seem to be entirely clueless that a large percentage of Palestinians detest Hamas, and that an even larger percentage of Lebansese are the enemies of Hezbollah.
If you genuinely cared about Palestinians, you should wish to see the terrorists who rule them and get them killed in stupid wars to be overthrown and disbanded.
Anan: Shouldn't we have compassion and respect for everyone, even skinheads?
Absolutely not. Skinheads are Nazis. Have you ever met one? I have. They are the despicable scum of the earth.
I will never forget when a gang of them beat an Ethiopian immigrant to death in my hometown. I am opposed to the death penalty, but they nevertheless deserve to be executed.
A woman named Elinor Langer wrote a book about the incident called A Hundred Little Hitlers. She's a leftist who writes for The Nation, but she's looked evil in the face and doesn't live in unicorn land like you apparently do.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 4:26 pm
Absolutely not. Skinheads are Nazis. Have you ever met one? I have. They are the despicable scum of the earth.
I will never forget when a gang of them beat an Ethiopian immigrant to death in my hometown. I am opposed to the death penalty, but they nevertheless deserve to be executed.
A woman named Elinor Langer wrote a book about the incident called A Hundred Little Hitlers. She's a leftist who writes for The Nation, but she's looked evil in the face and doesn't live in unicorn land like you apparently do.
Anan: MJT, someone can be a supporter of Hezbollah because they believe the Shiites have gotten a raw deal in Lebanon for centuries at the hands of Sunni Arabs, Christians, Druze, Syrians, and Palestinians [yes even Palestinians in Lebanon don't behave well with Shiites.]
Yes, I know. I understand that perfectly and explain it in detail in my book.
How do we know that this isn't part of the reason Jumanah Imad Albahri is sympathetic to Hezbollah?
So what if it is? The Germans got a raw deal after World War I, but that does not excuse Hitler. Cambodian peasants got a raw deal under Lon Nol, but that does not excuse Pol Pot. Blacks got a raw deal under the white supremacists regime in Rhodesia, but that does not excuse Robert Mugabe. I can do this all day.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 4:33 pm
Yes, I know. I understand that perfectly and explain it in detail in my book.
How do we know that this isn't part of the reason Jumanah Imad Albahri is sympathetic to Hezbollah?
So what if it is? The Germans got a raw deal after World War I, but that does not excuse Hitler. Cambodian peasants got a raw deal under Lon Nol, but that does not excuse Pol Pot. Blacks got a raw deal under the white supremacists regime in Rhodesia, but that does not excuse Robert Mugabe. I can do this all day.
Anan: We should respect their right to do so; and the right of Americans like Jumanah Imad Albahri to make up their own minds about Hamas.
Sure. She has the right to support a terrorist organization if she wants to, as long as that support remains exclusively verbal, and I get to say she's despicable as a result. That's how things work.
I can respect her rights because her rights are the same as mine, but I'm sure as hell not going to respect her bloodthirsty opinions.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 15, 2010 4:38 pm
Sure. She has the right to support a terrorist organization if she wants to, as long as that support remains exclusively verbal, and I get to say she's despicable as a result. That's how things work.
I can respect her rights because her rights are the same as mine, but I'm sure as hell not going to respect her bloodthirsty opinions.
"a large percentage of Palestinians detest Hamas." True, the latest Palestinian polls show Hamas' popularity has fallen sharply to less than a third of Palestinians. Famas would defeat Hamas in a landslide if an election were help today. Even an anti Famas Palestinian admitted this to me.
Personally, I would hope that Palestinians support Mustafa Barghouti instead of Fatah; but they have a right to vote for who they want.
My ideal Palestinian government would be a unity government with Mustafa Barghouti as PM, Fayyed as Finance Minister [or business investment minister], and some educated competent professional technocrats with Hamas sympathies in appropriate governance positions. Any Palestinian political appointee who doesn't cut it professionally or performs sub-par should be fired.
I think the whole world should help strengthen Palestinian institutions and facilitate Palestinian private sector business development. That is the best way to help Palestinians. Palestinian institutions will eventually take care of the crazies on their own for their own reasons; much as Iraqi institutions are doing in Iraq.
"an even larger percentage of Lebanese are the enemies of Hezbollah." True. Hezbollah is unpopular among non Shiite Lebanese [60-65 percent of the population.] Hezbollah also confronts opposition from Amal and other powerful Lebanese Shiite leaders.
It is important to strengthen Lebanese institutions including the LAF; and to dismantle all private militias, including Hezbollah's.
America is giving the LAF $600 million in annual grants. Other countries are also helping the LAF (Lebanese Armed Forces), but not nearly enough.
In my view any and all Iranian and Syrian aid to Lebanon should go directly to the Lebanese government and LAF; not to private parties such as Hezbollah. The path to achieving this goal over the long run lies in Iraq, I believe.
My great hope is that Iraq starts to play a larger role in Lebanon over time and helps bring all the private militias and institutions into the formal Lebanese government.
The only external parties that can moderate Hezbollah or strengthen non Hezbollah Lebanese parties [assuming the IRGC Kuds and Khamenei are in power in Iran] are the global Shia clergy and the Iraqi government.
Posted by: anan at May 15, 2010 4:43 pm
Personally, I would hope that Palestinians support Mustafa Barghouti instead of Fatah; but they have a right to vote for who they want.
My ideal Palestinian government would be a unity government with Mustafa Barghouti as PM, Fayyed as Finance Minister [or business investment minister], and some educated competent professional technocrats with Hamas sympathies in appropriate governance positions. Any Palestinian political appointee who doesn't cut it professionally or performs sub-par should be fired.
I think the whole world should help strengthen Palestinian institutions and facilitate Palestinian private sector business development. That is the best way to help Palestinians. Palestinian institutions will eventually take care of the crazies on their own for their own reasons; much as Iraqi institutions are doing in Iraq.
"an even larger percentage of Lebanese are the enemies of Hezbollah." True. Hezbollah is unpopular among non Shiite Lebanese [60-65 percent of the population.] Hezbollah also confronts opposition from Amal and other powerful Lebanese Shiite leaders.
It is important to strengthen Lebanese institutions including the LAF; and to dismantle all private militias, including Hezbollah's.
America is giving the LAF $600 million in annual grants. Other countries are also helping the LAF (Lebanese Armed Forces), but not nearly enough.
In my view any and all Iranian and Syrian aid to Lebanon should go directly to the Lebanese government and LAF; not to private parties such as Hezbollah. The path to achieving this goal over the long run lies in Iraq, I believe.
My great hope is that Iraq starts to play a larger role in Lebanon over time and helps bring all the private militias and institutions into the formal Lebanese government.
The only external parties that can moderate Hezbollah or strengthen non Hezbollah Lebanese parties [assuming the IRGC Kuds and Khamenei are in power in Iran] are the global Shia clergy and the Iraqi government.
"I think you should respect and admire college students when they care for Palestinians; and inspire/challenge them to care about others to."
If a student is genuinely interested in helping Palestinians, that's great...what I can't stand is when clueless young people are brainwashed into the whole "zionism equals nazism" nonsense. Have you seen zombies like this in action, Anand? I have!
Last year I went to San Francisco University, where As'ad Abu Khalil debated the Israeli Consul General. Instead of asking legitimate questions that someone who cares about Palestinians should ask, students were getting up, yelling at the Consul General, calling him things like "Idiot!", "Racist", and "Religious extremist". Meanwhile, the hypocritical Abu Khalil, who has said that last year's protests in Iran were "competing for the white man's attention", drew a huge round of applause. I was disgusted...the interesting thing was, the Palestinian-American students who helped organize the event seemed deeply embarrassed by the outbursts of the Bay Area leftists.
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 4:51 pm
If a student is genuinely interested in helping Palestinians, that's great...what I can't stand is when clueless young people are brainwashed into the whole "zionism equals nazism" nonsense. Have you seen zombies like this in action, Anand? I have!
Last year I went to San Francisco University, where As'ad Abu Khalil debated the Israeli Consul General. Instead of asking legitimate questions that someone who cares about Palestinians should ask, students were getting up, yelling at the Consul General, calling him things like "Idiot!", "Racist", and "Religious extremist". Meanwhile, the hypocritical Abu Khalil, who has said that last year's protests in Iran were "competing for the white man's attention", drew a huge round of applause. I was disgusted...the interesting thing was, the Palestinian-American students who helped organize the event seemed deeply embarrassed by the outbursts of the Bay Area leftists.
anan: "MJT, someone can be a supporter of Hezbollah because they believe the Shiites have gotten a raw deal in Lebanon for centuries at the hands of Sunni Arabs, Christians, Druze, Syrians, and Palestinians [yes even Palestinians in Lebanon don't behave well with Shiites.] How do we know that this isn't part of the reason Jumanah Imad Albahri is sympathetic to Hezbollah?"
Yes, true. But what Horovetz and the rest of Jews got to do with it? Why should this girl want Jews be exterminated?
anan: "Many Palestinians supported Hamas because they were sick of corrupt Fatah guys doing a wretched job with governance, the Palestinian security forces, running the education system, and with facilitating private sector business development. Hamas also told voters that they planned to maintain a long term Hudna with Israel..."
Yes, true. But what Horovetz and the rest of Jews got to do with it? Why should this girl want Jews be exterminated?
anan: "If Jumanah Albahri is willing to come on this blog and defend herself, ..."
And I would have to take he taquiya seriously because?
Posted by: leo at May 15, 2010 4:54 pm
Yes, true. But what Horovetz and the rest of Jews got to do with it? Why should this girl want Jews be exterminated?
anan: "Many Palestinians supported Hamas because they were sick of corrupt Fatah guys doing a wretched job with governance, the Palestinian security forces, running the education system, and with facilitating private sector business development. Hamas also told voters that they planned to maintain a long term Hudna with Israel..."
Yes, true. But what Horovetz and the rest of Jews got to do with it? Why should this girl want Jews be exterminated?
anan: "If Jumanah Albahri is willing to come on this blog and defend herself, ..."
And I would have to take he taquiya seriously because?
I shouldn't just blame leftists for the sideshow that happened in SF...there were a number of Ron Paul crazies there too.
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 4:54 pm
"It is not a "kill or be killed" world, except for fanatics stuck in the 7th century"
Ri-i-ight. And whom do you think you are dealing with.
That isn't the important question. I know who I'm dealing with. The question is, who do I think they are dealing with.
"That kind of thinking only gets martyrs for both sides, and it's a game the ummah has become very good at."
Actually no. Umah got very good at producing theatrics, but not results.
There's a plot of land in New York City that says otherwise. Also, ever heard the phrase "death by 1,000 paper cuts"?
"Why do you think Richard Reid wasn't executed?"
I do not know why. My guess, he is not a threat anymore.
He is still a threat. Being behind bars doesn't change that. Clarence Ray Allen showed that. And Lynne Stewart demonstrated the technique. The trick is how to minimize the threat.
But as to the question I asked, it was semi-rhetorical, but I guess you missed how I answered it:
"Because we refused to play into their hands."
You said that already:
No, what followed has nothing to do with not playing into their hands. Richard Reid was a native son with a martyr complex, and doubtless there were those radicals prepared to rally around his execution at the hands of the qufr.
"Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy."
This is circular argument, which has no meaning because it tries to prove itself. You'd be better off by declaring it an axiom from the very beginning. See how many would agree.
Well, it's obvious you would disagree. So what? If it's an unprovable axiom, why are you trying to disprove it?
BTW, this argument may make you feel good, but it also will result in your death in the end. When you are dealing with determined and resolute enemy you must be determined and resolute yourself or else.
My life will result in my death at the end. Your life, your death, same way. Nobody gets out alive.
I can be determined and resolute, without resorting to a "kill or be killed" mentality. It isn't how you die that counts, it's how you live.
Posted by: gus3 at May 15, 2010 4:55 pm
Ri-i-ight. And whom do you think you are dealing with.
That isn't the important question. I know who I'm dealing with. The question is, who do I think they are dealing with.
"That kind of thinking only gets martyrs for both sides, and it's a game the ummah has become very good at."
Actually no. Umah got very good at producing theatrics, but not results.
There's a plot of land in New York City that says otherwise. Also, ever heard the phrase "death by 1,000 paper cuts"?
"Why do you think Richard Reid wasn't executed?"
I do not know why. My guess, he is not a threat anymore.
He is still a threat. Being behind bars doesn't change that. Clarence Ray Allen showed that. And Lynne Stewart demonstrated the technique. The trick is how to minimize the threat.
But as to the question I asked, it was semi-rhetorical, but I guess you missed how I answered it:
"Because we refused to play into their hands."
You said that already:
No, what followed has nothing to do with not playing into their hands. Richard Reid was a native son with a martyr complex, and doubtless there were those radicals prepared to rally around his execution at the hands of the qufr.
"Because that is what differentiates me from my enemy."
This is circular argument, which has no meaning because it tries to prove itself. You'd be better off by declaring it an axiom from the very beginning. See how many would agree.
Well, it's obvious you would disagree. So what? If it's an unprovable axiom, why are you trying to disprove it?
BTW, this argument may make you feel good, but it also will result in your death in the end. When you are dealing with determined and resolute enemy you must be determined and resolute yourself or else.
My life will result in my death at the end. Your life, your death, same way. Nobody gets out alive.
I can be determined and resolute, without resorting to a "kill or be killed" mentality. It isn't how you die that counts, it's how you live.
MJT: "Absolutely not. Skinheads are Nazis. Have you ever met one? I have. They are the despicable scum of the earth."
There were few rare cases of some of them being transformed, but compassion for skinhead? Never.
Posted by: leo at May 15, 2010 5:00 pm
There were few rare cases of some of them being transformed, but compassion for skinhead? Never.
Michael,
The folks at "Kabobfest" have an angry post about this video...
www.kabobfest.com
Posted by: C.H. at May 15, 2010 6:12 pm
The folks at "Kabobfest" have an angry post about this video...
www.kabobfest.com
"why so many American college students are being drawn into a cause that they have no connection to."
It's popular. And far away. And makes people on the Left feel good; it's a guilt reducer. It's "solidarity"; you make friends at demonstrations.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 15, 2010 7:11 pm
It's popular. And far away. And makes people on the Left feel good; it's a guilt reducer. It's "solidarity"; you make friends at demonstrations.
Anan: I would argue that since the 7th century BC, Jews have been best treated in South Asia [where they have always liked Jews], in pre 1979 Persia [traditional close allies of the Jewish people since Cyrus the Great], and by the Ottoman Turks.
It's complicated. Things moved back and forth. But in Iran, Jews were very badly treated when the mullahs were socially powerful. It was only the Pahlevi regime (with its emphasis on Iranian identity) that was a break in this tradition.
I never understood why so many people, not just muslims, didn't like Jews. Is it because of the "Christ killer" accusation? Is it because of jealousy? What else is going on?
Hellenistic period Greeks disliked Jews because many Jews ostentatiously rejected Greek culture (and thus its conceit as being patently superior).
Romans disliked Jews because they stood out against claims of the civil religion of the state (particularly treating Emperors as divine) and periodically revolted.
Christians disliked Jews because they were the Chosen people and produced but rejected the Messiah. Which rather contradicted Christian claims to be the true continuing Israel. It particularly contradicted Church claims to be guardians of the truth and Jews provided an easy target to preach against to make priests "gatekeepers of righteousness". (Modern Christian preachers use the same patterns against gays, lesbians, etc.)
Muhammad and so Islam disliked Jews because they produced the Prophetic tradition he claimed to be the peak of but rejected him. Which contradicted Muslim claims to be possessors and guardians to the truth and (continue to) provide an easy target to preach against to make imans "gatekeepers of righteousness".
Nationalists disliked Jews because they got in the way of the notion of ethnic unity.
Revolutionary socialists disliked Jews because they insisted on keeping to their religious identity and had been (largely due to past Christian exclusions) deeply involved in commerce.
So: if you believed your culture was superior, wanted people to recognise Emperors as divine, appropriated the Abrahamic tradition, wanted ethnic conformity, wanted to transform society, the Jews were a problem. Basically, if you have a theory that is at war with various types of diversity, the Jews are a problem and, as a minority, are a relatively easy target. (Again, gays, lesbians, etc are in the same boat and have overlapping enemies as a result: some of whom, of course, are Jews.)
There are various useful texts on Jew-hatred and its origins. The Anguish of the Jews (which I review starting here), Norman Cohn's classic Warrant for Genocide (which I review starting here), The Devil and the Jews (which I review here), Constantine's Sword (which I review here), The Popes against the Jews (which I review here). I also review two classic texts on pre-Holocaust European Jew-hatred here.
Posted by: Lorenzo at May 15, 2010 7:13 pm
It's complicated. Things moved back and forth. But in Iran, Jews were very badly treated when the mullahs were socially powerful. It was only the Pahlevi regime (with its emphasis on Iranian identity) that was a break in this tradition.
I never understood why so many people, not just muslims, didn't like Jews. Is it because of the "Christ killer" accusation? Is it because of jealousy? What else is going on?
Hellenistic period Greeks disliked Jews because many Jews ostentatiously rejected Greek culture (and thus its conceit as being patently superior).
Romans disliked Jews because they stood out against claims of the civil religion of the state (particularly treating Emperors as divine) and periodically revolted.
Christians disliked Jews because they were the Chosen people and produced but rejected the Messiah. Which rather contradicted Christian claims to be the true continuing Israel. It particularly contradicted Church claims to be guardians of the truth and Jews provided an easy target to preach against to make priests "gatekeepers of righteousness". (Modern Christian preachers use the same patterns against gays, lesbians, etc.)
Muhammad and so Islam disliked Jews because they produced the Prophetic tradition he claimed to be the peak of but rejected him. Which contradicted Muslim claims to be possessors and guardians to the truth and (continue to) provide an easy target to preach against to make imans "gatekeepers of righteousness".
Nationalists disliked Jews because they got in the way of the notion of ethnic unity.
Revolutionary socialists disliked Jews because they insisted on keeping to their religious identity and had been (largely due to past Christian exclusions) deeply involved in commerce.
So: if you believed your culture was superior, wanted people to recognise Emperors as divine, appropriated the Abrahamic tradition, wanted ethnic conformity, wanted to transform society, the Jews were a problem. Basically, if you have a theory that is at war with various types of diversity, the Jews are a problem and, as a minority, are a relatively easy target. (Again, gays, lesbians, etc are in the same boat and have overlapping enemies as a result: some of whom, of course, are Jews.)
There are various useful texts on Jew-hatred and its origins. The Anguish of the Jews (which I review starting here), Norman Cohn's classic Warrant for Genocide (which I review starting here), The Devil and the Jews (which I review here), Constantine's Sword (which I review here), The Popes against the Jews (which I review here). I also review two classic texts on pre-Holocaust European Jew-hatred here.
gus3: "That isn't the important question. I know who I'm dealing with. The question is, who do I think they are dealing with."
I do not think this is important either in real life, but it also sounds arrogant. And if I sense it correctly this is not good sign.
gus3: "There's a plot of land in New York City that says otherwise."
Why does it say otherwise? Wasn't that impressive? But what did it achieve? Especially considering the measure of our response.
gus3: "Also, ever heard the phrase "death by 1,000 paper cuts"?"
Yes, I have. So?
gus3: "He [Richard Reid] is still a threat. Being behind bars doesn't change that."
Actually, no. He is behind bars. It is as good as it gets. Well, short of executing him that is. Are you implying we should kill him?
gus3: "Well, it's obvious you would disagree. So what? If it's an unprovable axiom, why are you trying to disprove it?"
I do not view it as an axiom. I just suggested you would try to present it as "self-evident truth" so you could have better luck convincing others (except myself of course).
gus3: "My life will result in my death at the end. Your life, your death, same way. Nobody gets out alive."
Agreed. I am just in no hurry to finish it.
gus3: "I can be determined and resolute, without resorting to a "kill or be killed" mentality."
Please, describe the alternative. Well, barring makrame lessons.
gus3: "It isn't how you die that counts, it's how you live."
Actually, to your enemies it is just the opposite and there's a plot of land in New York City that says I am right.
Posted by: leo at May 15, 2010 7:37 pm
I do not think this is important either in real life, but it also sounds arrogant. And if I sense it correctly this is not good sign.
gus3: "There's a plot of land in New York City that says otherwise."
Why does it say otherwise? Wasn't that impressive? But what did it achieve? Especially considering the measure of our response.
gus3: "Also, ever heard the phrase "death by 1,000 paper cuts"?"
Yes, I have. So?
gus3: "He [Richard Reid] is still a threat. Being behind bars doesn't change that."
Actually, no. He is behind bars. It is as good as it gets. Well, short of executing him that is. Are you implying we should kill him?
gus3: "Well, it's obvious you would disagree. So what? If it's an unprovable axiom, why are you trying to disprove it?"
I do not view it as an axiom. I just suggested you would try to present it as "self-evident truth" so you could have better luck convincing others (except myself of course).
gus3: "My life will result in my death at the end. Your life, your death, same way. Nobody gets out alive."
Agreed. I am just in no hurry to finish it.
gus3: "I can be determined and resolute, without resorting to a "kill or be killed" mentality."
Please, describe the alternative. Well, barring makrame lessons.
gus3: "It isn't how you die that counts, it's how you live."
Actually, to your enemies it is just the opposite and there's a plot of land in New York City that says I am right.
I think the whole world should help strengthen Palestinian institutions and facilitate Palestinian private sector business development.
Why can't the Palestinians do that on their own? Don't you think the Palestinians have to want it more than we do?
Posted by: semite5000 at May 15, 2010 7:45 pm
Why can't the Palestinians do that on their own? Don't you think the Palestinians have to want it more than we do?
I'm also surprised (and disgusted) at all the mental gymnastics that self-proclaimed liberals use to defend a genocide-supporter. I do not understand how are they capable of ignoring the mental dissonance that they must surely be experiencing.
MJT, maybe you should contact The Richard Dawkins Foundation, to ask them to fund a neuroscientist to study this phenomenon. This falls directly under the kind of things that they are interested in.
Finally, I would like to ask the delusional poster that said that supporting genocide is the same as supporting palestinians, and thus deserving of respect, to please go talk to a psychiatrist—it could save lives.
Posted by: Carlos2 at May 15, 2010 8:00 pm
MJT, maybe you should contact The Richard Dawkins Foundation, to ask them to fund a neuroscientist to study this phenomenon. This falls directly under the kind of things that they are interested in.
Finally, I would like to ask the delusional poster that said that supporting genocide is the same as supporting palestinians, and thus deserving of respect, to please go talk to a psychiatrist—it could save lives.
Interesting analysis, Lorenzo.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 15, 2010 10:24 pm
According to the Kabobfest blog, the proper translation for the Nasrallah quote was 'Nasrallah actually says, according to “some Islamic prophecies,” the State of Israel’s creation and the gathering of the Jews are “not so that their false messiah will rule the world, but because God wants to spare you from going to them in all corners of the world. Thus they gather in one place, and it will be the conclusive, decisive battle.”'
Sounds like the paraphrasing was accurate.
Posted by: Music at May 15, 2010 11:02 pm
Sounds like the paraphrasing was accurate.
Why not try to understand his point of view? He's not the deranged one in this exchange. She is.
A questionable assertion.
In these days where anti-Semitism is virtuous, where anti-Zionism is the cutting edge of morality, one must wonder who is, in fact, deranged?
In a world where the Lie about Jews and Zionism, repeated ad nauseum over all global media channels, and especially the Internet, has gone viral, when will critical mass be reached?
Has critical mass already been reached?
Can we, once again---so soothingly, so self-righteously---blame the Jews for bringing upon themselves their own destruction?
(After all, having successfully resisted all efforts to destroy them, they have made us very, very angry...and we are not ones to forget....)
Posted by: Barry Meislin at May 16, 2010 2:07 am
A questionable assertion.
In these days where anti-Semitism is virtuous, where anti-Zionism is the cutting edge of morality, one must wonder who is, in fact, deranged?
In a world where the Lie about Jews and Zionism, repeated ad nauseum over all global media channels, and especially the Internet, has gone viral, when will critical mass be reached?
Has critical mass already been reached?
Can we, once again---so soothingly, so self-righteously---blame the Jews for bringing upon themselves their own destruction?
(After all, having successfully resisted all efforts to destroy them, they have made us very, very angry...and we are not ones to forget....)
Leo, I agree with you. The deeper logic here is not religious or political, it is about altruistic cooperation and altruistic punishment, the mechanisms for "human" survival. I could care less what Islamic radicals "think". Like Craig, this is a matter of self-defense and the defense of the best system I am aware of for the expression of human potential. I doubt civilization is prepared to return to a 7th century system of justice nor do I put much faith in the power of gestures...
There is a void in the sky line as I look south from my 16th story window this morning in NYC that proves my point. Until we evolve further, it is kill or be killed. That is quite different than might makes right. Disputes can be resolved (or not) after security has been achieved. That would be the axiom I start with........
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 6:38 am
There is a void in the sky line as I look south from my 16th story window this morning in NYC that proves my point. Until we evolve further, it is kill or be killed. That is quite different than might makes right. Disputes can be resolved (or not) after security has been achieved. That would be the axiom I start with........
Good summary Lorenzo.....exactly right and it is amazing we have survived.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 6:41 am
Maxtrue: "There is a void in the sky line as I look south from my 16th story window this morning in NYC that proves my point. Until we evolve further, it is kill or be killed. That is quite different than might makes right. Disputes can be resolved (or not) after security has been achieved. That would be the axiom I start with........"
Thank you. To add, liberal utopian bloviation aside, we all always successfully communicate only while we are using lowest common denominator. If my enemy is not capable of understanding "how highly I have evolved (my ass)", then it is my job to "stoop down to his level and" explain how things are or I am dead MoFo. Marquess of Queensberry rules are best in boxing ring with all-powerful referee present. In the war you better forget this nonsense and do your best to make sure it is the other poor schlomil who dies for his country or ideals.
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 8:18 am
Thank you. To add, liberal utopian bloviation aside, we all always successfully communicate only while we are using lowest common denominator. If my enemy is not capable of understanding "how highly I have evolved (my ass)", then it is my job to "stoop down to his level and" explain how things are or I am dead MoFo. Marquess of Queensberry rules are best in boxing ring with all-powerful referee present. In the war you better forget this nonsense and do your best to make sure it is the other poor schlomil who dies for his country or ideals.
Yesterday on Hackaby I heard Muslims want to build a mosque at Ground Zero. I do not have anything against building a mosque or a church or a synagogue or else, but if they will get permission to build a mosque at Ground Zero can anybody imagine the boost all this jihadi will get in waging the war against us? And worst of all, city head are seriously considering the possibility. What is going on? Are we all mad and obsessed with self-destruction?
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 8:28 am
Music,
According to the Kabobfest blog...
I wouldn't out to much faith in anything that gets said on that blog. Most of the posters there including the founder of the blog seem to think it's funny to tell obvious lies. That's not to say they ALWAYS lie. But if telling a lie serves their agenda better than debating the facts, you can be sure they will go with the lie.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 8:59 am
According to the Kabobfest blog...
I wouldn't out to much faith in anything that gets said on that blog. Most of the posters there including the founder of the blog seem to think it's funny to tell obvious lies. That's not to say they ALWAYS lie. But if telling a lie serves their agenda better than debating the facts, you can be sure they will go with the lie.
...the interesting thing was, the Palestinian-American students who helped organize the event seemed deeply embarrassed by the outbursts of the Bay Area leftists.
lol. I think everyone besides bay area leftists are embarrassed by the outbursts of bay area leftists, CH :)
They are their own worst enemies. I really got a kick out of it when they combined a nudist parade with an anti-war demonstration a several years back. Yeah, I bet Iraqis really value that type of support.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 9:06 am
lol. I think everyone besides bay area leftists are embarrassed by the outbursts of bay area leftists, CH :)
They are their own worst enemies. I really got a kick out of it when they combined a nudist parade with an anti-war demonstration a several years back. Yeah, I bet Iraqis really value that type of support.
The response of the UCSD Muslim Student Association:
http://ucsdmsa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1:msa-press-release
In part: We are instructed with a valuable truth enshrined in the Qur’an – that ‘if anyone kills a human being unjustly, it is as though he or she has killed all humanity, and if anyone saves (even) one life, it is as though he or she has saved all humanity’ (Holy Qur’an 5:32).
Personally, I don't think it speaks well of them that they misrepresent Quranic scripture. What that verse actually says according to the USC Quranic database:
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
This verse applies only to Jews. Not to Muslims.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 9:30 am
http://ucsdmsa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1:msa-press-release
In part: We are instructed with a valuable truth enshrined in the Qur’an – that ‘if anyone kills a human being unjustly, it is as though he or she has killed all humanity, and if anyone saves (even) one life, it is as though he or she has saved all humanity’ (Holy Qur’an 5:32).
Personally, I don't think it speaks well of them that they misrepresent Quranic scripture. What that verse actually says according to the USC Quranic database:
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
This verse applies only to Jews. Not to Muslims.
More from the MSA statement:
As the civil rights activist Malcolm X once said, “I’m for truth, no matter who tells it. I’m for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.”
They invoke Malcolm X in an anti-apartheid statement? Seriously? Are they unaware that Malcolm X was a militant separatist who advocated the creation of an exclusively black American state?
What are they teaching kids in school, these days? :O
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 9:36 am
As the civil rights activist Malcolm X once said, “I’m for truth, no matter who tells it. I’m for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.”
They invoke Malcolm X in an anti-apartheid statement? Seriously? Are they unaware that Malcolm X was a militant separatist who advocated the creation of an exclusively black American state?
What are they teaching kids in school, these days? :O
Pat Patterson,
Thank you for the webarchive find of the original Daily Star article.
MJT,
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your analogy of Franco and Khomeini. "Francoism" basically ended with Franco's death. It was a cult of personality more similiar to Ceaucescu's. There is reverence for Khomeini among many shia, only somewhat based on his charming (to shia) personality. His continuing success is based upon his devout and pious (twelver shia) Islam. To try to separate "Khomeiniism" from (shia) Islam reminds me of the way so many non-Muslims insist that "Islamism" is not Islam, but rather a new, separate ideology. Certainly not all Shia are "followers" of Khomeini, but those that are, are pious and devout Muslims more primarily than "Khomeiniists" or "Khomeiniacs" or whatever label one constructs to name the followers of this "Khomeiniism".
Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 9:42 am
Thank you for the webarchive find of the original Daily Star article.
MJT,
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your analogy of Franco and Khomeini. "Francoism" basically ended with Franco's death. It was a cult of personality more similiar to Ceaucescu's. There is reverence for Khomeini among many shia, only somewhat based on his charming (to shia) personality. His continuing success is based upon his devout and pious (twelver shia) Islam. To try to separate "Khomeiniism" from (shia) Islam reminds me of the way so many non-Muslims insist that "Islamism" is not Islam, but rather a new, separate ideology. Certainly not all Shia are "followers" of Khomeini, but those that are, are pious and devout Muslims more primarily than "Khomeiniists" or "Khomeiniacs" or whatever label one constructs to name the followers of this "Khomeiniism".
Micheal, you might want to look at this: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/muslim-student-who-admitted-support-for-jewish-genocide-now-says-death-to-israel.html
She now says "Death to Israel"......
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 9:43 am
She now says "Death to Israel"......
Hey Craig, I heard the Sea Lions (including ex-NAVY) recently warned Bay Area residence of their intolerable screwiness by running away to Oregon more than 500 miles away to hang out with their more Libertarian friends for several weeks....
and I do mean "real" Sea Lions....lol
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 9:50 am
and I do mean "real" Sea Lions....lol
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/05/14/theology-for-a-holocaust/print/
What Spencer had posted at FrontPage about this a few days ago.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 9:59 am
What Spencer had posted at FrontPage about this a few days ago.....
Jumanah Imad Albahri released this statement.
http://fortruthforjustice.wordpress.com/
Posted by: Kelly Brown at May 16, 2010 10:55 am
http://fortruthforjustice.wordpress.com/
I saw that earlier, Kelly. Didn't seem worth remarking on to me, but then I'm pretty heavily biased against people who support terrorism. She continues to ridicule Horowitz, she continues to attack Israel, she continues to defend terror groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and worst of all instead of apologizing for saying she something she didn't mean in the heat of the moment (which would have been somewhat credible depending on how much sincerity people are willing to attribute to her) she claims that she didn't understand the question.
She should have consulted with somebody who understands how to do "damage control". Don't they have anyone at UCSD who specializes in Public Relations who could have consulted with her pro bono?
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 11:04 am
She should have consulted with somebody who understands how to do "damage control". Don't they have anyone at UCSD who specializes in Public Relations who could have consulted with her pro bono?
Kelly Brown,
The apparent fact that someone claims to be "fortruthforjustice" does not actually mean that they are. There is also a dependence on the definitions of truth and justice. Or are they meanings?
Amazing but true.
Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 11:14 am
The apparent fact that someone claims to be "fortruthforjustice" does not actually mean that they are. There is also a dependence on the definitions of truth and justice. Or are they meanings?
Amazing but true.
Craig,
Why would you suggest that Ms. Albahri be, or have been, assisted in obfuscating her beliefs and clouding rather than clarifying her statements, via "damage control"?
Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 11:18 am
Why would you suggest that Ms. Albahri be, or have been, assisted in obfuscating her beliefs and clouding rather than clarifying her statements, via "damage control"?
Del, Albahri is a young foolish American girl who messed up big time. None of us should take any delight in her "self destructing" herself. Shouldn't you treat her like a younger sister you disagree with?
Craig, that was one of the worst responses I could imagine. I would suggest she removes it and writes a new one . . . fast.
"She should have consulted with somebody who understands how to do "damage control". Don't they have anyone at UCSD who specializes in Public Relations who could have consulted with her pro bono?"
Albahri's family, friends and mentors are letting her down big time.
Albahri shouldn't talk about Mr. Horowitz. She should talk about herself, her mistake, and apologize. That's it. In future blogpost she can discuss her political positions.
Craig, notice that no one at Kabobfest is defending Albahri's statement (even as they criticize Mr. Horowitz.)
http://www.kabobfest.com/2010/05/david-horowitz-san-diego-genocide-lie-islamophobia-rears-its-ugly-head.html#idc-container
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 9:43 am
"http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/muslim-student-who-admitted-support-for-jewish-genocide-now-says-death-to-israel.html
She now says "Death to Israel"...... "
Wow. That isn't good.
"Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 9:42 am " Don't agree with you. Khomeini is unpopular among most Shiite clerics, even in Qom. Might clarify this more later.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 9:36 am
Its okay. Malcolm X is deceased now.
Posted by: anan at May 16, 2010 11:37 am
Craig, that was one of the worst responses I could imagine. I would suggest she removes it and writes a new one . . . fast.
"She should have consulted with somebody who understands how to do "damage control". Don't they have anyone at UCSD who specializes in Public Relations who could have consulted with her pro bono?"
Albahri's family, friends and mentors are letting her down big time.
Albahri shouldn't talk about Mr. Horowitz. She should talk about herself, her mistake, and apologize. That's it. In future blogpost she can discuss her political positions.
Craig, notice that no one at Kabobfest is defending Albahri's statement (even as they criticize Mr. Horowitz.)
http://www.kabobfest.com/2010/05/david-horowitz-san-diego-genocide-lie-islamophobia-rears-its-ugly-head.html#idc-container
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 9:43 am
"http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/muslim-student-who-admitted-support-for-jewish-genocide-now-says-death-to-israel.html
She now says "Death to Israel"...... "
Wow. That isn't good.
"Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 9:42 am " Don't agree with you. Khomeini is unpopular among most Shiite clerics, even in Qom. Might clarify this more later.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 9:36 am
Its okay. Malcolm X is deceased now.
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 8:28 am
"Muslims want to build a mosque at Ground Zero. I do not have anything against building a mosque or a church or a synagogue or else, but if they will get permission to build a mosque at Ground Zero can anybody imagine the boost all this jihadi will get in waging the war against us? And worst of all, city head are seriously considering the possibility. What is going on? Are we all mad and obsessed with self-destruction?"
Leo, a very large facility will likely be built on ground zero. If a component of that facility could become a mosque, another component become a church, another component become a synagogue, another component become a buddhist/hindu temple; that would be awesome.
9/11 was collateral damage in an ongoing islamic civil war. A mosque at ground zero would be evidence that the good traditional orthodox muslims are defeating the Takfiri crazies.
semite5000: "Why can't the Palestinians do that on their own? Don't you think the Palestinians have to want it more than we do?" I think most Palestinians do want it. The extremist minority do not represent Palestinians. One piece of evidence is the large increase in Palestinians who go to college.
Here is the thing; we benefit and we are safer when Palestinians succeed and are safer. We have a symbiotic relationship with them.
Posted by: Lorenzo at May 15, 2010 7:13 pm
Thank you very much. That is one of the best compilations regarding global anti Jewish sentiment I have ever seen. I'll need to carefully read and think over your comments.
Posted by: anan at May 16, 2010 12:07 pm
"Muslims want to build a mosque at Ground Zero. I do not have anything against building a mosque or a church or a synagogue or else, but if they will get permission to build a mosque at Ground Zero can anybody imagine the boost all this jihadi will get in waging the war against us? And worst of all, city head are seriously considering the possibility. What is going on? Are we all mad and obsessed with self-destruction?"
Leo, a very large facility will likely be built on ground zero. If a component of that facility could become a mosque, another component become a church, another component become a synagogue, another component become a buddhist/hindu temple; that would be awesome.
9/11 was collateral damage in an ongoing islamic civil war. A mosque at ground zero would be evidence that the good traditional orthodox muslims are defeating the Takfiri crazies.
semite5000: "Why can't the Palestinians do that on their own? Don't you think the Palestinians have to want it more than we do?" I think most Palestinians do want it. The extremist minority do not represent Palestinians. One piece of evidence is the large increase in Palestinians who go to college.
Here is the thing; we benefit and we are safer when Palestinians succeed and are safer. We have a symbiotic relationship with them.
Posted by: Lorenzo at May 15, 2010 7:13 pm
Thank you very much. That is one of the best compilations regarding global anti Jewish sentiment I have ever seen. I'll need to carefully read and think over your comments.
Anand,
Leo, a very large facility will likely be built on ground zero. If a component of that facility could become a mosque, another component become a church, another component become a synagogue, another component become a buddhist/hindu temple; that would be awesome.
I don't think it would be "awesome" to build a mosque on the memorial site of an atrocity committed by Islamic terrorists. I think Islamists would crow about that as a sign of victory.
The third most holy site in Islam is the mosque that was built over the ruins of the second temple of solomon which is the ONE holy site for Jews. That mosque was built while the Holy Land was being occupied by invading Arabs. Islam should have no more such "Holy Sites", anand. You view such as a sign of respect. I view them as a sign of contempt and an attempt to inflict humiliation on the enemies of Islam.
No mosque at ground zero. Ever. And no double-talk to try to make it sound like building one would be a measure of reconciliation.
Anand, you read many Muslim blogs. You *know* how the most militant of Muslims would portray that.
9/11 was collateral damage in an ongoing islamic civil war.
That's not our war. We aren't Muslims.
A mosque at ground zero would be evidence that the good traditional orthodox muslims are defeating the Takfiri crazies.
Bullshit. It would be a talking point added to AQ's indoctrination programs when he brags about Al Qaida's accomplishments.
Anand, you have to learn to just say "no" :P
Any politician advocating this needs to be impeached or recalled by the good people of New York.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 12:43 pm
Leo, a very large facility will likely be built on ground zero. If a component of that facility could become a mosque, another component become a church, another component become a synagogue, another component become a buddhist/hindu temple; that would be awesome.
I don't think it would be "awesome" to build a mosque on the memorial site of an atrocity committed by Islamic terrorists. I think Islamists would crow about that as a sign of victory.
The third most holy site in Islam is the mosque that was built over the ruins of the second temple of solomon which is the ONE holy site for Jews. That mosque was built while the Holy Land was being occupied by invading Arabs. Islam should have no more such "Holy Sites", anand. You view such as a sign of respect. I view them as a sign of contempt and an attempt to inflict humiliation on the enemies of Islam.
No mosque at ground zero. Ever. And no double-talk to try to make it sound like building one would be a measure of reconciliation.
Anand, you read many Muslim blogs. You *know* how the most militant of Muslims would portray that.
9/11 was collateral damage in an ongoing islamic civil war.
That's not our war. We aren't Muslims.
A mosque at ground zero would be evidence that the good traditional orthodox muslims are defeating the Takfiri crazies.
Bullshit. It would be a talking point added to AQ's indoctrination programs when he brags about Al Qaida's accomplishments.
Anand, you have to learn to just say "no" :P
Any politician advocating this needs to be impeached or recalled by the good people of New York.
anan:
"Leo, a very large facility will likely be built on ground zero. If a component of that facility could become a mosque, another component become a church, another component become a synagogue, another component become a buddhist/hindu temple; that would be awesome."
No, it will not be. Jihadi could not care less about you good intentions, but they care about mosque built on top of 3000+ dead Americans.
Frankly, I do not believe you do not understand what you mean.
Here is an alternative idea for you. We will level Kaaba and then will built a mosque, a church and a synagogue and everything else your heart desire on top of it.
Some how I find it hard to believe you would think it is awesome.
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 12:55 pm
"Leo, a very large facility will likely be built on ground zero. If a component of that facility could become a mosque, another component become a church, another component become a synagogue, another component become a buddhist/hindu temple; that would be awesome."
No, it will not be. Jihadi could not care less about you good intentions, but they care about mosque built on top of 3000+ dead Americans.
Frankly, I do not believe you do not understand what you mean.
Here is an alternative idea for you. We will level Kaaba and then will built a mosque, a church and a synagogue and everything else your heart desire on top of it.
Some how I find it hard to believe you would think it is awesome.
Sorry, it should read:
"Frankly, I do not believe you do not understand what I mean. "
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 12:56 pm
"Frankly, I do not believe you do not understand what I mean. "
Here is an alternative idea for you. We will level Kaaba and then will built a mosque, a church and a synagogue and everything else your heart desire on top of it.
Well, just for the sake of argument lets suppose some crusader type calamity did befall Mecca:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWtQ4lfU2vo
Anand, do you think the Saudis could be prevailed upon to build a Church on the ruins as a sign that they don't really blame us for it? I think they might be open to the idea, but I wouldn't want to be the one to broach the subject. Maybe we could get Hassan Nasrallah to suggest it? I'm just wondering, because it seems like we need to start thinking outside the box and improve our communication channels. In the interests of interfaith dialog.
Posted by: Craig at May 16, 2010 1:07 pm
Well, just for the sake of argument lets suppose some crusader type calamity did befall Mecca:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWtQ4lfU2vo
Anand, do you think the Saudis could be prevailed upon to build a Church on the ruins as a sign that they don't really blame us for it? I think they might be open to the idea, but I wouldn't want to be the one to broach the subject. Maybe we could get Hassan Nasrallah to suggest it? I'm just wondering, because it seems like we need to start thinking outside the box and improve our communication channels. In the interests of interfaith dialog.
The video's been sent all over the world. I got cold shivers when I saw it. This woman was definitely not misguided, and those on this blog who attempt to trivialise her support for genocide (anan, take note) are using the usual tactics of deflection. It's a classic reaction when too much attention is focused on the relentless Jew hatred exhibited by such people "You're overreacting", "ignore it" etc. I'm surprised that nobody's said she's part of a small minority of lunatics and her behaviour isn't indicative of Islam! Yeah, yeah, whatever...... doesn't wash.
What would it take to wake you up, people? If you're Jewish, this woman, a member of a Students association with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, whose Jew hatred is instrinsic and relentless, is discussing the murder of sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, and if she gets her wish - your own murders. I'm amazed you can discuss this sooooo calmly. What's wrong with all of you? Do you really believe this woman is "one on her own"? Just imagine what would happen if a Jew were to stand up during a lecture by a Muslim cleric and were to say the same thing about all Muslims being sent to one Muslim country so they could be killed more easily.... right, you got it - he'd be in a cell before he could say his name. There would be riots, buildings set on fire, death threats, God knows what. Would anybody who trivialises what Jumanah Imad Albahri said trivialise what the Jew said? Just asking.
For goodness sake, stop putting your own Western "take" on the beliefs of people like her. If followers of the Muslim Brotherhood say they want to murder Jews - THEY REALLY DO WANT TO MURDER JEWS! Get it now?
Posted by: Penny at May 16, 2010 1:13 pm
What would it take to wake you up, people? If you're Jewish, this woman, a member of a Students association with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, whose Jew hatred is instrinsic and relentless, is discussing the murder of sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, and if she gets her wish - your own murders. I'm amazed you can discuss this sooooo calmly. What's wrong with all of you? Do you really believe this woman is "one on her own"? Just imagine what would happen if a Jew were to stand up during a lecture by a Muslim cleric and were to say the same thing about all Muslims being sent to one Muslim country so they could be killed more easily.... right, you got it - he'd be in a cell before he could say his name. There would be riots, buildings set on fire, death threats, God knows what. Would anybody who trivialises what Jumanah Imad Albahri said trivialise what the Jew said? Just asking.
For goodness sake, stop putting your own Western "take" on the beliefs of people like her. If followers of the Muslim Brotherhood say they want to murder Jews - THEY REALLY DO WANT TO MURDER JEWS! Get it now?
Max,
Brief (promise) Sunday sidetrack:
The sea lions, who used to hang out at SF's Pier 39 (Fisherman's Wharf), barking and creating a distinct and pungent aroma, were the unlucky adolescent males, as I recall; but I never was up on sealionology. Great whites find them tasty, I think. One trip there was enough for me to leave them to the tourists. Imagine a kennel of mastiffs, for example, with no bathing facilities...
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 1:48 pm
Brief (promise) Sunday sidetrack:
The sea lions, who used to hang out at SF's Pier 39 (Fisherman's Wharf), barking and creating a distinct and pungent aroma, were the unlucky adolescent males, as I recall; but I never was up on sealionology. Great whites find them tasty, I think. One trip there was enough for me to leave them to the tourists. Imagine a kennel of mastiffs, for example, with no bathing facilities...
Craig,
As I told my (female) Saudi classmate who called home a gold-plated prison, when there are synagogues in Jedda (and Damascus, and...) I'll believe this "peace process" exists.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 1:57 pm
As I told my (female) Saudi classmate who called home a gold-plated prison, when there are synagogues in Jedda (and Damascus, and...) I'll believe this "peace process" exists.
Spot on Craig and Leo....
I'd love to send Nasrallah and Ahmadinejad as Jews back to the Warsaw Uprising in my wayback machine....
Anan is right about the girl's "apology". Bad move. She's digging herself a nice hole but then look at the clown who threatened South Park......
What I want to see is an apology from the school and that brilliant teacher.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 1:58 pm
I'd love to send Nasrallah and Ahmadinejad as Jews back to the Warsaw Uprising in my wayback machine....
Anan is right about the girl's "apology". Bad move. She's digging herself a nice hole but then look at the clown who threatened South Park......
What I want to see is an apology from the school and that brilliant teacher.
Paul, I just saw a program on cable on how they all just upped and swam away for months. It turns out they traveled 500 miles to Oregon. No one knows why...
I was also amazed to learn how some Sea Lions have been trained to attack enemy divers and protect our fleet.
In any case, maybe these enduring creatures sense the daftness of the growing local population....lol
and needed a break.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:03 pm
I was also amazed to learn how some Sea Lions have been trained to attack enemy divers and protect our fleet.
In any case, maybe these enduring creatures sense the daftness of the growing local population....lol
and needed a break.
Anan would be so at home on Fantasy Island...
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 2:11 pm
anand sez,
"Del, Albahri is a young foolish American girl who messed up big time. None of us should take any delight in her "self destructing" herself. Shouldn't you treat her like a younger sister you disagree with?"
I sez,
No and no and no. And that would be rather condescending, no?
Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 2:22 pm
"Del, Albahri is a young foolish American girl who messed up big time. None of us should take any delight in her "self destructing" herself. Shouldn't you treat her like a younger sister you disagree with?"
I sez,
No and no and no. And that would be rather condescending, no?
anand,
Please do clarify your asserted unpopularity of Khomeini among Shia clerics in Qom.
Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 2:23 pm
Please do clarify your asserted unpopularity of Khomeini among Shia clerics in Qom.
Penny, chill. We understand the import. Why do you think Michael posted this in the first place? He certainly isn't trying to trivialize this at all.
What would you have us do? Start chanting Death to Muslims? I certainly do not favor watering down the material support laws Democrats want to do. Once the American Jews begin to react to those within their own community providing cover for this kind of bullshit, the internal polls will shift and perhaps, Democrats will take note. If they don't stand up to what is happening I wouldn't count on 80% Jewish support for the Democratic ticket in November.
Hillary Clinton, for all the high poll numbers, has yet to accomplish anything. I think she knows that and I don't say this in a mean way. Crap like this youtube, as long as people like Michael keep it on the radar, will continue to prepare the ground for that "wake up" call. The Soviets had a less scary ideology than a world run by Islamic clerics. I would prefer Hu. The direction we have been going in the messaging department hasn't produced any real gains and rather than many Muslims and Lefties becoming more moderate, ideologues on the Far Side see the opportunity of a PC-Liberal WH to become more aggressive. She should have a right to speak though Trey and Matt should be killed for a cartoon. Horowitz didn't get to ask her about that.
Unfortunately, it may take more bad news for that wake up call, but don't think most here have their eyes wide open.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:24 pm
What would you have us do? Start chanting Death to Muslims? I certainly do not favor watering down the material support laws Democrats want to do. Once the American Jews begin to react to those within their own community providing cover for this kind of bullshit, the internal polls will shift and perhaps, Democrats will take note. If they don't stand up to what is happening I wouldn't count on 80% Jewish support for the Democratic ticket in November.
Hillary Clinton, for all the high poll numbers, has yet to accomplish anything. I think she knows that and I don't say this in a mean way. Crap like this youtube, as long as people like Michael keep it on the radar, will continue to prepare the ground for that "wake up" call. The Soviets had a less scary ideology than a world run by Islamic clerics. I would prefer Hu. The direction we have been going in the messaging department hasn't produced any real gains and rather than many Muslims and Lefties becoming more moderate, ideologues on the Far Side see the opportunity of a PC-Liberal WH to become more aggressive. She should have a right to speak though Trey and Matt should be killed for a cartoon. Horowitz didn't get to ask her about that.
Unfortunately, it may take more bad news for that wake up call, but don't think most here have their eyes wide open.....
One thing I'll say after almost 40 years here, S.F. is a superb laboratory for studying the Left's state of mind. But now I call California the golden state of arrested development, where the (so-called) liberal mind ages without maturing. And this state's public education system used to be the envy of other states; the UC system was known as the great middle class bargain.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 2:27 pm
"Craig, that was one of the worst responses I could imagine. I would suggest she removes it and writes a new one . . . fast.
Albahri's family, friends and mentors are letting her down big time.
Albahri shouldn't talk about Mr. Horowitz. She should talk about herself, her mistake, and apologize. That's it. In future blogpost she can discuss her political positions."
I meant this was more on point, not the other stuff.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:28 pm
Albahri's family, friends and mentors are letting her down big time.
Albahri shouldn't talk about Mr. Horowitz. She should talk about herself, her mistake, and apologize. That's it. In future blogpost she can discuss her political positions."
I meant this was more on point, not the other stuff.
Paul,
I find the scant coverage of Black/SF relations quite interesting given a black President....
Arrested would be accurate. I wonder if they see themselves in the newscasts from Greece. And who will bail us out? China again?
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:31 pm
I find the scant coverage of Black/SF relations quite interesting given a black President....
Arrested would be accurate. I wonder if they see themselves in the newscasts from Greece. And who will bail us out? China again?
LOL...."Unfortunately, it may take more bad news for that wake up call, but don't think most here have their eyes wide shut.....", that is..
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:33 pm
Max,
What was very interesting during campaign '08 was the few BO signs, shirts, buttons I saw; I mean maybe a dozen I saw all over town all of '08. And in a town where preaching to the converted is a favorite sport.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 2:36 pm
What was very interesting during campaign '08 was the few BO signs, shirts, buttons I saw; I mean maybe a dozen I saw all over town all of '08. And in a town where preaching to the converted is a favorite sport.
The enemy never sleeps...... http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/536/venezuela-and-iran-going-to-the-next-level.com
It is rather amazing than instead of focusing on real threats, we can't even keep the line been speech and hate clear here at home....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:38 pm
It is rather amazing than instead of focusing on real threats, we can't even keep the line been speech and hate clear here at home....
Paul, the rift on the Democratic side was never really vetted because of the involvement of media in politics. Media never really outted the Edwards/Obama/Dodd plot in Michigan which cost Hillary the election....Many things were unreported, including the internal dymanics that were at war. Just look at the excuses for the failure of the gay marriage bill in California. Blame the blacks?
In this environment, stuff like this youtube stuff above goes under the radar too. The anti-war wing has broken something on the Democratic side. Media is a drift. Leaving behind SF and the "elitist" remarks Obama cast there during the primary, I have no doubt however, that Obama COULD throw his policy minions under the bus, don that BIG CHIEF suit and start waving the sword. The lack of gravitas so far is simply because no one believes he can kick ass.....
Instead Obama used the moon speech by JFK to launch his career (and Health Care) as Atlantis makes her last voyage into space. We'll just rent to the Russians.......no gravitas.... regardless of the excuses.....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 16, 2010 2:50 pm
In this environment, stuff like this youtube stuff above goes under the radar too. The anti-war wing has broken something on the Democratic side. Media is a drift. Leaving behind SF and the "elitist" remarks Obama cast there during the primary, I have no doubt however, that Obama COULD throw his policy minions under the bus, don that BIG CHIEF suit and start waving the sword. The lack of gravitas so far is simply because no one believes he can kick ass.....
Instead Obama used the moon speech by JFK to launch his career (and Health Care) as Atlantis makes her last voyage into space. We'll just rent to the Russians.......no gravitas.... regardless of the excuses.....
"no one believes he can kick ass....."
Including me. Look out for your own, I say; heavier turbulence forming ahead. Your belt tight?
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 2:55 pm
Including me. Look out for your own, I say; heavier turbulence forming ahead. Your belt tight?
For a smile (for some), check out the cover of Adbusters magazine (adbusters.org)
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 2:56 pm
And I can't agree that media is adrift, unless floating further away from a mooring called honest reporting is the drift you see. I sense a heavy anchor called belief in force.
Posted by: Paul S. at May 16, 2010 3:05 pm
Maxtrue: Albahri shouldn't talk about Mr. Horowitz. She should talk about herself, her mistake, and apologize. That's it. In future blogpost she can discuss her political positions."
It does not work like that.
Here she has a Jew not worthy of living and she will admit of being wrong about it?
BTW, it is her very family who raised her in hate, why should we expect different reaction?
I, for one, am glad. The longer she spins the more attention she will attract and more people will wake up to reality. She is her worst enemy. Go, baby, go.
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 4:04 pm
It does not work like that.
Here she has a Jew not worthy of living and she will admit of being wrong about it?
BTW, it is her very family who raised her in hate, why should we expect different reaction?
I, for one, am glad. The longer she spins the more attention she will attract and more people will wake up to reality. She is her worst enemy. Go, baby, go.
Really, the "teachers" defending this young woman need to reexamine their credentials! Does Hezbollah believe in "peacefully" exterminating the Jews? The "student" said what was on her mind, yet the "teachers" think that she is not responsible for what she said.
Posted by: Sunshine at May 16, 2010 5:30 pm
I've posted a longer version of the Horowitz vs. Genocide-Girl video on my Facebook page. I know my many generally-unaware friends of all denominations will see it, and absorb it, and come to the only possible conclusion a normal, right-thinking human can when confronted with abject evil.
And then, of course, there's anan and that other guy. Even MJT (about as tolerant a host there is) appears to be throwing his hands up in the airin frustration. Our resident poster child is failing every test - the kind you can't study for.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at May 16, 2010 7:34 pm
And then, of course, there's anan and that other guy. Even MJT (about as tolerant a host there is) appears to be throwing his hands up in the airin frustration. Our resident poster child is failing every test - the kind you can't study for.
leo: Go, baby, go.
Amen to that. I say let's get her an agent and take this show on the road.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at May 16, 2010 7:35 pm
Amen to that. I say let's get her an agent and take this show on the road.
I just got this in email:
"NEW YORK, May 11 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The human rights group Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) is hosting a rally at Ground Zero to protest the construction of a mosque at the site of the Islamic terror attack that brought down the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001. SIOA is one of America's foremost organizations defending human rights, religious liberty, and the freedom of speech against Islamic supremacist intimidation and attempts to bring elements of Sharia to the United States.
No 9/11 Mosque Rally will be at Ground Zero on June 6 at 12 noon. Supporting groups (partial list): ACT for America (ACT Manhattan chapter); Z Street; Freedom Defense Initiative; No Mosque at Ground Zero; Faith Freedom International; Stuart Kaufman; American Bulldogs; VAST; and the Center for Security Policy.
Lets win this war."
Posted by: leo at May 16, 2010 8:07 pm
"NEW YORK, May 11 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The human rights group Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) is hosting a rally at Ground Zero to protest the construction of a mosque at the site of the Islamic terror attack that brought down the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001. SIOA is one of America's foremost organizations defending human rights, religious liberty, and the freedom of speech against Islamic supremacist intimidation and attempts to bring elements of Sharia to the United States.
No 9/11 Mosque Rally will be at Ground Zero on June 6 at 12 noon. Supporting groups (partial list): ACT for America (ACT Manhattan chapter); Z Street; Freedom Defense Initiative; No Mosque at Ground Zero; Faith Freedom International; Stuart Kaufman; American Bulldogs; VAST; and the Center for Security Policy.
Lets win this war."
Fascinating Facebook group comment thread with the Albahri woman herself, as well as some of her family.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=118798028154985
Follow the link and tell them to stick their bigotry up their Muslim Brotherhood asses.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at May 16, 2010 9:20 pm
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=118798028154985
Follow the link and tell them to stick their bigotry up their Muslim Brotherhood asses.
Kelly Brown,
On the facebook link provided by Li'l Mamzer, I see that an individual posted comments under the name "Kelly Brown-Albahri".
Could you please clarify if that was yourself, and what your relationship to Jumanah Albahri is? (At least if she is related to you, [family] or not.)
Thanks.
Posted by: del at May 16, 2010 10:11 pm
On the facebook link provided by Li'l Mamzer, I see that an individual posted comments under the name "Kelly Brown-Albahri".
Could you please clarify if that was yourself, and what your relationship to Jumanah Albahri is? (At least if she is related to you, [family] or not.)
Thanks.
Why should she apologize if that's what she really thinks?
And it is, quite obviously, exactly what she thinks.
(Unless, of course, her friends and mentors believe she needs to bone up on her takfiri abilities---theory and practice---and she certainly needs to....)
And you know what? She's just the tip of the iceberg.
Time to redefine "liberal education"?
Posted by: Barry Meislin at May 16, 2010 11:44 pm
And it is, quite obviously, exactly what she thinks.
(Unless, of course, her friends and mentors believe she needs to bone up on her takfiri abilities---theory and practice---and she certainly needs to....)
And you know what? She's just the tip of the iceberg.
Time to redefine "liberal education"?
del: I see that an individual posted comments under the name "Kelly Brown-Albahri"
Well, isn't that interesting.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 17, 2010 2:31 am
Well, isn't that interesting.
Dear Regular Posters:
Please go to the Facebook page I linked to above and:
a) Sign the petition to the UC Chancellors
AND
b) Post the longer version of the Horowitz video to your Facebook page...help it go viral and educate your friends re: Taqiyya, etc.
Here's the link again:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=118798028154985
Expose them NOW!
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at May 17, 2010 4:10 am
Please go to the Facebook page I linked to above and:
a) Sign the petition to the UC Chancellors
AND
b) Post the longer version of the Horowitz video to your Facebook page...help it go viral and educate your friends re: Taqiyya, etc.
Here's the link again:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=118798028154985
Expose them NOW!
"Could you please clarify if that was yourself, and what your relationship to Jumanah Albahri is? (At least if she is related to you, [family] or not.)"
It still is not the reason to dismiss Kelly's claims. However, Kelly's inability to back up her words is the valid reason to doubt her.
P.S. BTW, Jumanah and Kelly could be the same person. It is common for Jews and Muslims to use double-names. Religious and civil, so to say.
Posted by: leo at May 17, 2010 4:30 am
It still is not the reason to dismiss Kelly's claims. However, Kelly's inability to back up her words is the valid reason to doubt her.
P.S. BTW, Jumanah and Kelly could be the same person. It is common for Jews and Muslims to use double-names. Religious and civil, so to say.
leo,
You're partially correct in that "Kelly Brown"'s assertions should be considered on their own lack of merit.
Nevertheless, if she is related to Jumanah Albahri, and she probably is (and you're right that it is further possible that she is Jumanah Albahri), her lack of honesty and integrity in stating that relationship up-front is itself clarifying.
Posted by: del at May 17, 2010 8:31 am
You're partially correct in that "Kelly Brown"'s assertions should be considered on their own lack of merit.
Nevertheless, if she is related to Jumanah Albahri, and she probably is (and you're right that it is further possible that she is Jumanah Albahri), her lack of honesty and integrity in stating that relationship up-front is itself clarifying.
maxtrue of course I wouldn't want anybody to start chanting Death to Muslims or anything like that. From here in the UK, where everybody is so scared of Muslim anger they don't dare say no to them, I see the same things happening "across the Pond". Your government is is hesitant to call Islamic terrorism what it is, like ours is.
What worries me is that Islam does not understand what liberal tolerant values are. Muslims MUST obey their Koran, and one of Islam's tenets is, if they cannot succeed in Islamising countries by war, they must do it by sheer weight of numbers. They can also CHOOSE to APPEAR diffident and tolerant, when really they are not, but their religion says it's OK to employ deceit when they feel it's necessary. It's called Al Takeyya.
I agree with you one hundred percent about American Jews needing to react to those in their own community providing cover for appeasement. It's the same here. Anybody who dares say anything other than the "official narrative", i.e. the propaganda the Official Jews feed them, is intimidated. To me, it makes absolutely no difference whether 80% of Jews don't vote Democrat at the next election - what's important is that they don't take their eyes off the ball, whoever is in power. They also need to remember that their own needs as one community are not paramount either - they're going to need help in times to come to overcome Islamism in the USA, and what it would mean to them, as Jews. If they continue to isolate themselves from their fellow Americans, and I know they do and it's the same here - they're going to be the meat in the sandwich. That, as a Jew, is the message I'm trying to put out there in the UK, also.
Posted by: Penny at May 17, 2010 9:45 am
What worries me is that Islam does not understand what liberal tolerant values are. Muslims MUST obey their Koran, and one of Islam's tenets is, if they cannot succeed in Islamising countries by war, they must do it by sheer weight of numbers. They can also CHOOSE to APPEAR diffident and tolerant, when really they are not, but their religion says it's OK to employ deceit when they feel it's necessary. It's called Al Takeyya.
I agree with you one hundred percent about American Jews needing to react to those in their own community providing cover for appeasement. It's the same here. Anybody who dares say anything other than the "official narrative", i.e. the propaganda the Official Jews feed them, is intimidated. To me, it makes absolutely no difference whether 80% of Jews don't vote Democrat at the next election - what's important is that they don't take their eyes off the ball, whoever is in power. They also need to remember that their own needs as one community are not paramount either - they're going to need help in times to come to overcome Islamism in the USA, and what it would mean to them, as Jews. If they continue to isolate themselves from their fellow Americans, and I know they do and it's the same here - they're going to be the meat in the sandwich. That, as a Jew, is the message I'm trying to put out there in the UK, also.
Yes, Penny, I basically agree. As for Hamas-loving supporters: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8687974.stm
Now do you think the British or American Press will make as big a deal about this as Israeli bulldozers? Obviously not.
Let me guess, its the Hamas version of the Commerce Clause.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 17, 2010 10:14 am
Now do you think the British or American Press will make as big a deal about this as Israeli bulldozers? Obviously not.
Let me guess, its the Hamas version of the Commerce Clause.
I think you already know the answer to that,Maxtrue.
Posted by: Penny at May 17, 2010 11:13 am
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/17/times.square.suspect.emails/?hpt=T2
I draw your attention to the narrative of Shahzad. The jumbled mix of strange history, "cartoons" and "the way of the Koran". It is in this same chaos that death to Israel gets mixed in for reasons below.
I cannot but think that the poor game of chess we are playing in the Muslim world and at home is fueling some of the narrative. I read today the administration's best hope in containing Iran relies on further Iranian intransigence. Is that what they are waiting for here too, MORE intransigence?
If Obama is trying to set the stage for a SuperReagan, he's doing a spot on job so far.
I not sure the world as we know it will look the same by then. Some student leagues are counting on that.
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 17, 2010 2:43 pm
I draw your attention to the narrative of Shahzad. The jumbled mix of strange history, "cartoons" and "the way of the Koran". It is in this same chaos that death to Israel gets mixed in for reasons below.
I cannot but think that the poor game of chess we are playing in the Muslim world and at home is fueling some of the narrative. I read today the administration's best hope in containing Iran relies on further Iranian intransigence. Is that what they are waiting for here too, MORE intransigence?
If Obama is trying to set the stage for a SuperReagan, he's doing a spot on job so far.
I not sure the world as we know it will look the same by then. Some student leagues are counting on that.
They are family.
http://defendisrael.blog.com/2010/05/18/the-family-that-is-anti-jewish-together-stays-together/
Posted by: Jamed at May 18, 2010 1:43 am
http://defendisrael.blog.com/2010/05/18/the-family-that-is-anti-jewish-together-stays-together/
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg-censor-20100518,0,5167137.column
LAT chimes in on the issue....
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 18, 2010 6:06 am
LAT chimes in on the issue....
Sounds like Kelly Brown, is Kelly Brown-Albahri (Her Mother).
http://defendisrael.blog.com/2010/05/18/the-family-that-is-anti-jewish-together-stays-together/
Posted by: Teresa at May 18, 2010 9:01 am
http://defendisrael.blog.com/2010/05/18/the-family-that-is-anti-jewish-together-stays-together/
Thank you, Teresa.
Posted by: del at May 18, 2010 10:52 am
And thank you, Jamed.
Posted by: del at May 18, 2010 10:57 am
Yes, thanks as the cover comes off a bit more...
Posted by: Maxtrue at May 18, 2010 11:02 am
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