March 15, 2010
Dubai Only Looks Modern
Dubai's financial troubles are well-known, as are the appalling labor and living conditions some of its imported workers must suffer through. Now it has another serious problem. Two Britons were just sentenced to a month in jail followed by deportation for a kiss on the cheek in a bar.
How many people are going to read that story and want to visit a place that imprisons foreigners for something the rest of the human race doesn't even consider a misdemeanor?
I've been a bit of a Dubai booster in the past, but I'm done, at least for now. A country that imposes a reactionary seventh century moral code on visitors doesn't deserve tourists.
UPDATE: Good grief, it gets worse. "A 23-year-old British woman who was raped while on holiday in Dubai now faces jail in the Gulf state for having illegal sex outside marriage."
Posted by Michael J. Totten at March 15, 2010 11:43 AM
Comments
"appalling labor and living conditions some of its imported workers must suffer through"... "some" of Dubai's workers? You clearly mean the non-Western types you probably don't rub elbows with...
"How many people are going to read that story and want to visit a place that imprisons foreigners for something the rest of the human race doesn't even consider a misdemeanor?" So I guess as long as they don't crack down on YOU or your peeps its OK to be a booster for Dubai?
As long as there's sweet tea for Michael to drink with a few charming locals, as long as there are a couple bars to go to, and pecks on the cheek, all the underlying heinousness of Islam is worth overlooking. About what I'd expect from the author of "Kosovo is the Israel of the Balkans".
Posted by: Morton Doodslag at March 15, 2010 3:07 pm
"How many people are going to read that story and want to visit a place that imprisons foreigners for something the rest of the human race doesn't even consider a misdemeanor?" So I guess as long as they don't crack down on YOU or your peeps its OK to be a booster for Dubai?
As long as there's sweet tea for Michael to drink with a few charming locals, as long as there are a couple bars to go to, and pecks on the cheek, all the underlying heinousness of Islam is worth overlooking. About what I'd expect from the author of "Kosovo is the Israel of the Balkans".
Small potatoes, really:
http://www.realcourage.org/2010/01/uae-rape-victim-arrested/
Posted by: Squires at March 15, 2010 3:55 pm
http://www.realcourage.org/2010/01/uae-rape-victim-arrested/
This is interesting given that their is a vibrant night-life culture in Dubai. The wine is plentiful as well as woman. Is the incident above sop to come of the more conservative members of society, i.e. Muslim fundamentalist?
Posted by: Niraj at March 15, 2010 4:13 pm
As long as there's sweet tea for Michael to drink with a few charming locals, as long as there are a couple bars to go to, and pecks on the cheek, all the underlying heinousness of Islam is worth overlooking.
Morton, maybe you should try hanging out someplace else where you'll fit in a bit better.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 15, 2010 4:23 pm
Morton, maybe you should try hanging out someplace else where you'll fit in a bit better.
MJT, I think you are making too much of the first story.
Neither of us were at the restaurant 2 AM in the morning. I don't know what really happened, or who observed what.
There really is a deep fear of negative westernized values seducing and corrupting young people throughout Asia. This said, one month in the slammer is too much. Dubai has to find a better way to encourage "values" among its people.
I was going to give a spirited defense of Dubai, but then I saw your update: "A 23-year-old British woman who was raped while on holiday in Dubai now faces jail in the Gulf state for having illegal sex outside marriage."
This really is outrageous. How could this happen in Dubai?
Posted by: anan at March 15, 2010 4:27 pm
Neither of us were at the restaurant 2 AM in the morning. I don't know what really happened, or who observed what.
There really is a deep fear of negative westernized values seducing and corrupting young people throughout Asia. This said, one month in the slammer is too much. Dubai has to find a better way to encourage "values" among its people.
I was going to give a spirited defense of Dubai, but then I saw your update: "A 23-year-old British woman who was raped while on holiday in Dubai now faces jail in the Gulf state for having illegal sex outside marriage."
This really is outrageous. How could this happen in Dubai?
Anan: How could this happen in Dubai?
Because Dubai only looks modern.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 15, 2010 4:30 pm
Because Dubai only looks modern.
Yes, Anan,
Just think if this is happening in Dubai, what might or should I say is going on in Syria, Iran, Pakistan and dare I say your beloved Gaza.
Oh and I'm sure it would all stop if those pesky Jews in Israel just treated the Muslims more kindly.
Is that an alarm bell I hear, with a wake-up call?
Posted by: yesjb at March 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Just think if this is happening in Dubai, what might or should I say is going on in Syria, Iran, Pakistan and dare I say your beloved Gaza.
Oh and I'm sure it would all stop if those pesky Jews in Israel just treated the Muslims more kindly.
Is that an alarm bell I hear, with a wake-up call?
yesjb,
anan doesn't need a wake-up call. His surprise is feigned; it is merely to curry favor.
Jail sentences, or perhaps floggings, for these "infractions" come straight from the sharia of Islam. From the point of view of Islam, the sharia laws of Islam apply to non-Muslims as well as Muslims, at least within the Lands of Islam. Sharia is not always consistently nor equally enforced, but it is never "moderate" nor "modern". It is what it is and always shall be.
Unless a woman who is raped can produce several witnesses (!) to prove the act was indeed rape, or unless the perpetrator admits to the rape, the woman, whose testimony is inferior to a man's testimony in Sharia, is guilty of sex outside marriage. Case closed. That is very standard Sharia.
The wake-up call should go to non-Muslims in the UK, Europe, the USA and worldwide. Although it seems fantastical, it is the actual long-term goal of pious Muslim groups such as CAIR and ISNA in the USA, and MCB in the UK to remake these (our) societies sharia compliant and enforcing. Marginalizing (e.g. as "islamophobia") and even criminalizing criticism of Islam is the current general strategy toward that goal. If pious Muslims in our societies have their wishes fulfilled, punishments for similiar "infractions" will occur here as well. Those pious Muslims may even be opposed to "terroristic" methods to spread Islam and Sharia -- they may prefer or only use non-violent methods. But the utopian goal (offered sincerely and with generosity from their viewpoint) is the same: Sharia for all will make the world a perfect place.
Posted by: del at March 15, 2010 6:29 pm
anan doesn't need a wake-up call. His surprise is feigned; it is merely to curry favor.
Jail sentences, or perhaps floggings, for these "infractions" come straight from the sharia of Islam. From the point of view of Islam, the sharia laws of Islam apply to non-Muslims as well as Muslims, at least within the Lands of Islam. Sharia is not always consistently nor equally enforced, but it is never "moderate" nor "modern". It is what it is and always shall be.
Unless a woman who is raped can produce several witnesses (!) to prove the act was indeed rape, or unless the perpetrator admits to the rape, the woman, whose testimony is inferior to a man's testimony in Sharia, is guilty of sex outside marriage. Case closed. That is very standard Sharia.
The wake-up call should go to non-Muslims in the UK, Europe, the USA and worldwide. Although it seems fantastical, it is the actual long-term goal of pious Muslim groups such as CAIR and ISNA in the USA, and MCB in the UK to remake these (our) societies sharia compliant and enforcing. Marginalizing (e.g. as "islamophobia") and even criminalizing criticism of Islam is the current general strategy toward that goal. If pious Muslims in our societies have their wishes fulfilled, punishments for similiar "infractions" will occur here as well. Those pious Muslims may even be opposed to "terroristic" methods to spread Islam and Sharia -- they may prefer or only use non-violent methods. But the utopian goal (offered sincerely and with generosity from their viewpoint) is the same: Sharia for all will make the world a perfect place.
Are people posting here from Srpska Mreza again?
Posted by: Pat Patterson at March 15, 2010 9:30 pm
Are people posting here from Srpska Mreza again?
Seems so.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 15, 2010 9:47 pm
Seems so.
Del, Others,
Is clitorectomy part of this "perfection" process, or more culturally specific?
Posted by: Paul S. at March 15, 2010 9:52 pm
Is clitorectomy part of this "perfection" process, or more culturally specific?
No, Pat. I ain't Serb. Eventually, hopefully, you will get your wake-up call, in spite of yourself. When, I can't say.
Avert your eyes, plug your ears:
Pat Condell
"Wake up, America"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc&feature=PlayList&p=203D2A286DFEDF6D&index=28
Posted by: del at March 15, 2010 10:04 pm
Avert your eyes, plug your ears:
Pat Condell
"Wake up, America"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc&feature=PlayList&p=203D2A286DFEDF6D&index=28
Del,
I don't think Pat had you in mind when he asked that question. Either way, I didn't have you in mind when I answered it.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 15, 2010 10:07 pm
I don't think Pat had you in mind when he asked that question. Either way, I didn't have you in mind when I answered it.
Pat just seems to remember when I used to get beat up on regularly by people who take their opinions from Belgrade and Moscow.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 15, 2010 10:09 pm
MJT,
Thank you for the clarification. I disagree with some of your positions but I have never slagged you, here nor elsewhere. Pat's use of "people" rather than e.g., "someone", and his post immediately after mine above, made it clear to me that he referred to me as well as another commenter above who brought up Kosovo.
He (Pat) is of course welcome to demonstrate that what I wrote about Sharia and its proponents is false, rather than to make a snide comment.
Over to you, Pat. It should be a piece of cake for you.
Paul S.,
My understanding is that clitorectomy is encouraged by the attitudes inculcated by the texts of Islam, and is widely but not universally practiced in Muslim societies. Some Muslims actually decry clitorectomy; probably more practice it. To an extent, and for example in Africa, the misogynistic attitudes of Islam agree with and reinforce local tribal or ethnic customs about clitorectomy. Those customs would no longer exist if they were entirely un-islamic. And remember that in Islamic societies, Sharia governs everything, personal, interpersonal and political.
As repulsive as clitorectomy itself is, the general misogyny (see above) and bigoted anti-homosexual views common in pious Islam are worse. I won't bore people with links. If someone wishes, they can search youtube. I would suggest the keywords "Nashville" and "Binhazim" and "death", in addition to any other keywords considered.
No. Not all people who identify themselves as Muslim have these bigoted views. However, if they are both truly pious and honest, they must (unless the mythical "moderate" Islam has been found, outside of some ownprivateIdahos).
Posted by: del at March 15, 2010 10:55 pm
Thank you for the clarification. I disagree with some of your positions but I have never slagged you, here nor elsewhere. Pat's use of "people" rather than e.g., "someone", and his post immediately after mine above, made it clear to me that he referred to me as well as another commenter above who brought up Kosovo.
He (Pat) is of course welcome to demonstrate that what I wrote about Sharia and its proponents is false, rather than to make a snide comment.
Over to you, Pat. It should be a piece of cake for you.
Paul S.,
My understanding is that clitorectomy is encouraged by the attitudes inculcated by the texts of Islam, and is widely but not universally practiced in Muslim societies. Some Muslims actually decry clitorectomy; probably more practice it. To an extent, and for example in Africa, the misogynistic attitudes of Islam agree with and reinforce local tribal or ethnic customs about clitorectomy. Those customs would no longer exist if they were entirely un-islamic. And remember that in Islamic societies, Sharia governs everything, personal, interpersonal and political.
As repulsive as clitorectomy itself is, the general misogyny (see above) and bigoted anti-homosexual views common in pious Islam are worse. I won't bore people with links. If someone wishes, they can search youtube. I would suggest the keywords "Nashville" and "Binhazim" and "death", in addition to any other keywords considered.
No. Not all people who identify themselves as Muslim have these bigoted views. However, if they are both truly pious and honest, they must (unless the mythical "moderate" Islam has been found, outside of some ownprivateIdahos).
I am a Muslim. I do not hold any of these abhorrent misogynistic or homophobic views. I have to say though, I am part of a very, very small, quickly shrinking minority. I have only met about two Muslim people in my whole life who share my "normal" views.
Posted by: Ali at March 15, 2010 11:08 pm
Ali,
The "quickly shrinking" aspect of your observation is the most disconcerting part. As a westerner at a distance, I wonder how different private face/behind closed doors attitudes are. If they are different.
Posted by: Paul S. at March 15, 2010 11:22 pm
The "quickly shrinking" aspect of your observation is the most disconcerting part. As a westerner at a distance, I wonder how different private face/behind closed doors attitudes are. If they are different.
Michael, if I may call you that, your site has been one of my daily musts-reads for several years now.
I'm surprised that you're surprised to find a Muslim society with retrograde attitudes.
From everything I've read, Islam is all about the misogyny. Hasn't that been the case in your travels?
Why women consent to live under such conditions I leave to psychologists.
Posted by: Tom B. at March 15, 2010 11:47 pm
I'm surprised that you're surprised to find a Muslim society with retrograde attitudes.
From everything I've read, Islam is all about the misogyny. Hasn't that been the case in your travels?
Why women consent to live under such conditions I leave to psychologists.
Thanks for your comments too, Del.
Posted by: Paul S. at March 15, 2010 11:54 pm
Tom: I'm surprised that you're surprised to find a Muslim society with retrograde attitudes.
I'm not surprised by that at all. I'm just disappointed that this is going on in Dubai. I've never been there, but it has a better reputation than this. Clearly it isn't deserved.
From everything I've read, Islam is all about the misogyny. Hasn't that been the case in your travels?
In some places much more than others. It varies. A lot.
There's no way something like this would happen in Beirut, for example, where kissing friends on the cheek is de rigueur. I couldn't tell you how many Lebanese women have kissed me on the cheek in public. Lots, including a member of parliament. No one gets arrested or stoned for that in Beirut. It happens thousands of times every day. Not even Hezbollah cares.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 1:32 am
I'm not surprised by that at all. I'm just disappointed that this is going on in Dubai. I've never been there, but it has a better reputation than this. Clearly it isn't deserved.
From everything I've read, Islam is all about the misogyny. Hasn't that been the case in your travels?
In some places much more than others. It varies. A lot.
There's no way something like this would happen in Beirut, for example, where kissing friends on the cheek is de rigueur. I couldn't tell you how many Lebanese women have kissed me on the cheek in public. Lots, including a member of parliament. No one gets arrested or stoned for that in Beirut. It happens thousands of times every day. Not even Hezbollah cares.
Ali: I have only met about two Muslim people in my whole life who share my "normal" views.
I know lots more than two. Where are you from? Are you the Ali from Saudi Arabia who emailed me recently? Liberals and moderates seem almost as thin on the ground there as Christians and Jews.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 1:36 am
I know lots more than two. Where are you from? Are you the Ali from Saudi Arabia who emailed me recently? Liberals and moderates seem almost as thin on the ground there as Christians and Jews.
A country that imposes a reactionary seventh century moral code on visitors doesn't deserve tourists.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html
Why does the US state department only warn of terrorist threats? I would think there would be some very strong language in there warning both tourists and potential employees that they're going to get thrown in prison if they kiss their wives in public, and that people can rape you and you'll get thrown in prison for that too. WTF, US State Department? But even if the State Department did have travel advisories about Sharia Law that wouldn't be enough. I think a ban on all discretionary travel to the UAE would be appropriate. People will go anyway but at least maybe it would be a smaller number. And at least then the State Department could say "We told you not to go!" and pretend like they were actually doing their job. I'm pretty sure if incidents like this were happening in latin america or east asia, the US State Department would be all over it.
Posted by: Craig at March 16, 2010 2:01 am
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html
Why does the US state department only warn of terrorist threats? I would think there would be some very strong language in there warning both tourists and potential employees that they're going to get thrown in prison if they kiss their wives in public, and that people can rape you and you'll get thrown in prison for that too. WTF, US State Department? But even if the State Department did have travel advisories about Sharia Law that wouldn't be enough. I think a ban on all discretionary travel to the UAE would be appropriate. People will go anyway but at least maybe it would be a smaller number. And at least then the State Department could say "We told you not to go!" and pretend like they were actually doing their job. I'm pretty sure if incidents like this were happening in latin america or east asia, the US State Department would be all over it.
A country that imposes a reactionary seventh century moral code on visitors doesn't deserve tourists.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html
Why does the US state department only warn of terrorist threats? I would think there would be some very strong language in there warning both tourists and potential employees that they're going to get thrown in prison if they kiss their wives in public, and that people can rape you and you'll get thrown in prison for that too. WTF, US State Department? But even if the State Department did have travel advisories about Sharia Law that wouldn't be enough. I think a ban on all discretionary travel to the UAE would be appropriate. People will go anyway but at least maybe it would be a smaller number. And at least then the State Department could say "We told you not to go!" and pretend like they were actually doing their job. I'm pretty sure if incidents like this were happening in latin america or east asia, the US State Department would be all over it.
Posted by: Craig at March 16, 2010 2:02 am
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html
Why does the US state department only warn of terrorist threats? I would think there would be some very strong language in there warning both tourists and potential employees that they're going to get thrown in prison if they kiss their wives in public, and that people can rape you and you'll get thrown in prison for that too. WTF, US State Department? But even if the State Department did have travel advisories about Sharia Law that wouldn't be enough. I think a ban on all discretionary travel to the UAE would be appropriate. People will go anyway but at least maybe it would be a smaller number. And at least then the State Department could say "We told you not to go!" and pretend like they were actually doing their job. I'm pretty sure if incidents like this were happening in latin america or east asia, the US State Department would be all over it.
Sorry for the double post! Some stuff from that State Department link:
On several occasions in recent years, small groups of expatriate recreational boaters were detained by the Iranian Coast Guard for alleged violation of Iranian territorial waters while fishing near the island of Abu Musa, approximately 20 miles from Dubai.
A warning about being seized by the Iranian Navy, but no warning that you might get raped and thrown in prison for being raped. Great job there, State Department!
CRIME: Most travelers to the UAE are not impacted by crime. Violent crimes and crimes against property are rare, but do occur. The U.S. Embassy advises all U.S. citizens to take the same security precautions in the UAE that one would practice in the United States or any large city abroad. Although vehicle break-ins are not common, U.S. citizens are encouraged to ensure that unattended vehicles are locked and that valuables are not left in plain sight.
Incidents of verbal and physical harassment as well as isolated cases involving assault of expatriate women have occurred, including some incidents of harassment by taxi drivers. On more than one occasion, expatriate females have been sexually assaulted while walking alone through underground pedestrian walkways near the Abu Dhabi corniche. Female travelers should keep in mind the cultural differences...
I think they should just snip those two paragraphs and the rest of that section, and replace it with something like: "You might get raped, and if you report it to the authorities you might get thrown in prison". Much shorter, and more relevant to what might actually happen.
Posted by: Craig at March 16, 2010 2:15 am
On several occasions in recent years, small groups of expatriate recreational boaters were detained by the Iranian Coast Guard for alleged violation of Iranian territorial waters while fishing near the island of Abu Musa, approximately 20 miles from Dubai.
A warning about being seized by the Iranian Navy, but no warning that you might get raped and thrown in prison for being raped. Great job there, State Department!
CRIME: Most travelers to the UAE are not impacted by crime. Violent crimes and crimes against property are rare, but do occur. The U.S. Embassy advises all U.S. citizens to take the same security precautions in the UAE that one would practice in the United States or any large city abroad. Although vehicle break-ins are not common, U.S. citizens are encouraged to ensure that unattended vehicles are locked and that valuables are not left in plain sight.
Incidents of verbal and physical harassment as well as isolated cases involving assault of expatriate women have occurred, including some incidents of harassment by taxi drivers. On more than one occasion, expatriate females have been sexually assaulted while walking alone through underground pedestrian walkways near the Abu Dhabi corniche. Female travelers should keep in mind the cultural differences...
I think they should just snip those two paragraphs and the rest of that section, and replace it with something like: "You might get raped, and if you report it to the authorities you might get thrown in prison". Much shorter, and more relevant to what might actually happen.
I think we should cut Dubai some slack here.
One they're flat-out broke, and two, they're using most of their remaining resources (it seems) trying to find out who isn't a Mossad agent.
Posted by: Barry Meislin at March 16, 2010 2:23 am
One they're flat-out broke, and two, they're using most of their remaining resources (it seems) trying to find out who isn't a Mossad agent.
Why women consent to live under such conditions I leave to psychologists
While it's easy to put all the blame on the men, women also form part of the culture and support its customs.
Posted by: Toady at March 16, 2010 5:43 am
While it's easy to put all the blame on the men, women also form part of the culture and support its customs.
Del-I wasn't referring to you at all but I can see how the proximity of the commnet could be taken as such. Also I used people because often several commenters from Srpska Mreza will share pseudonyms when posting on sites that they are hostile too. Sort of a reverse sock puppet.
Posted by: Pat Patterson at March 16, 2010 5:50 am
The subject of how much misogyny and oppression of women is endemic to Islam and how much is a reflection of the various cultures in which Islam has taken root is an interesting one and one I have spent some time studying. As best I can tell, they are closely linked in that Islam is an Arab religion at its core and much of the misogyny and suppression of women is Arab. And those same (bad) cultural values are not uncommon in many parts of Africa and Asia (SE Asia in particular) where Islam has flourished; at the same time, they are also not universal in all areas. The trend seems to be in the regressive direction, as Islamization becomes more important around the world and misogyny is a useful tool to both suppress dissent, empower and attract the zealots you need to spread the message and appealing to many fundamentalist clerics. But, though they are the minority and on the run, there are some Muslim scholars who actively argue that things like "honor killings" are un-Islamic and issue fatwas against them - here is an example: http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/fatwa.html
While I applaud the efforts to reform and modernize Islam as it relates to the treatment of women, the reality is that as a practical matter Islam and the abuse of women is closely intertwined.
Posted by: dontgetit at March 16, 2010 6:35 am
While I applaud the efforts to reform and modernize Islam as it relates to the treatment of women, the reality is that as a practical matter Islam and the abuse of women is closely intertwined.
I was in Dubai 2 weeks ago for a conference (I'm dual citizen Israel, but that's another story for another time) and I was shocked to see how overtly permissive it was, but I guess that's only surface deep.
I got taken to a bar which was wall to wall prostitutes and Johns. This was a bar in the Radisson Hotel mind you, and it was FULL of Arab men in their "Jalabiyahs". I was shocked at how out in the open it all was. (for the record, I was TAKEN there, didn't ask to go there, and once I understood what it was all about I took a cab back to my hotel).
Posted by: jonorose at March 16, 2010 9:01 am
I got taken to a bar which was wall to wall prostitutes and Johns. This was a bar in the Radisson Hotel mind you, and it was FULL of Arab men in their "Jalabiyahs". I was shocked at how out in the open it all was. (for the record, I was TAKEN there, didn't ask to go there, and once I understood what it was all about I took a cab back to my hotel).
jonorose, I think what you are describing is part of the problem. Women are treated like a commodity item there.
Anyway, I don't have much to say about Dubai. Criticism has to come from the inside before it does any good. I have a tendency to resent foreigners criticizing my country, whether right or wrong, so I could hardly expect anyone in Dubai to care what i say. I would like to see the US state department do its damn job and make it perfectly clear what can happen to people in Dubai, and how the people who are supposed to help are likely to victimize them further. Americans can't "fix" Dubai but we damn sure can do a better job of trying not to expose our citizens to abuse. I'd recommend other countries do the same, but that's up to them.
Posted by: Craig at March 16, 2010 9:51 am
Anyway, I don't have much to say about Dubai. Criticism has to come from the inside before it does any good. I have a tendency to resent foreigners criticizing my country, whether right or wrong, so I could hardly expect anyone in Dubai to care what i say. I would like to see the US state department do its damn job and make it perfectly clear what can happen to people in Dubai, and how the people who are supposed to help are likely to victimize them further. Americans can't "fix" Dubai but we damn sure can do a better job of trying not to expose our citizens to abuse. I'd recommend other countries do the same, but that's up to them.
Classic mistake: Dubai copied the symptoms of the West's success instead of its root causes. And they seem determined not to copy those root causes: freedom, democracy, innovation etc...
Posted by: BurjAmerica at March 16, 2010 9:51 am
Jonorose: I was in Dubai 2 weeks ago for a conference (I'm dual citizen Israel, but that's another story for another time) and I was shocked to see how overtly permissive it was
I've heard that from so many people, which is why I'm surprised by these stories.
Go to Beirut some time. Its libertarianism is authentic.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 10:43 am
I've heard that from so many people, which is why I'm surprised by these stories.
Go to Beirut some time. Its libertarianism is authentic.
I am a little demoralized by Ali's above remark that he belongs to a quickly shrinking minority of liberal Muslims. These are words of a Muslim from Islamic country, so they can't be dismissed as negative stereotyping, Islamophobia etc.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the process of religious radicalization is not over yet. The same Internet which brings porn to computers of students in Morocco also brings speeches of Mohammad Omar Bakri into dormitories of Oxford and Cambridge.
Hell, which tendency will win?
I keep hearing that young Arabs are basically a Haifa Wehbe generation and much less strict than their parents, but the development trend in Lebanon and Egypt does not seem to correlate with this.
Posted by: Marian Kechlibar at March 16, 2010 11:38 am
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the process of religious radicalization is not over yet. The same Internet which brings porn to computers of students in Morocco also brings speeches of Mohammad Omar Bakri into dormitories of Oxford and Cambridge.
Hell, which tendency will win?
I keep hearing that young Arabs are basically a Haifa Wehbe generation and much less strict than their parents, but the development trend in Lebanon and Egypt does not seem to correlate with this.
Go to Beirut some time. Its libertarianism is authentic.
Michael - I am waiting to hear your take on Jumblatt's visit to Damascus and what that might mean for the future of Lebanon. It's like a capitulation.
I am waiting to hear your take on Jumblatt's visit to Damascus and what that might mean for the future of Lebanon. It's like a capitulation.
That is correct. I mentioned this before and will write about it again.
Syria and Iran have used Hezbollah to effectively take over Lebanon.
Hezbollah doesn't administer Lebanon, so it's still a free country as far as the day to day operation of the place is concerned, but Hezbollah can do whatever it wants and the government has no say in its own foreign policy.
It is not going to end well.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 4:30 pm
That is correct. I mentioned this before and will write about it again.
Syria and Iran have used Hezbollah to effectively take over Lebanon.
Hezbollah doesn't administer Lebanon, so it's still a free country as far as the day to day operation of the place is concerned, but Hezbollah can do whatever it wants and the government has no say in its own foreign policy.
It is not going to end well.
"A 23-year-old British woman who was raped while on holiday in Dubai now faces jail in the Gulf state for having illegal sex outside marriage." I can't defend this.
This said, many of the comments here implicitly assume that "modernity" is linked with "westernized culture." I don't agree with this assumption.
Many muslims value modesty in public. This is their choice. In America too, if someone goes in public completely naked, they are subject to fines and a night in the slammer.
Muslims can choose to value modesty in public while being modern.
It is also ethnocentric and wrong to imply that Eastern or muslim culture isn't as "modern" as western culture.
Marian and Ali, please don't conflate "Arabic" culture with "Islamic" culture.
When I think Islamic culture, I think more of Malaysian, Indonesian, Chinese or Indian muslims than a do of Arab muslims. More than half a billion muslims live in Indonesia/India/China/Malaysia; compared with less than 300 million muslims who live in the Arabic world.
Marian, can't a muslim be modern, respectful of other faiths and cultures and successful without being a fan of Haifa Wehbe?
yesjb, there have been many problems throughout the muslim world for more than 13 centuries. However, nonmuslims also have their share of problems.
Yes there is a problem with anti Jewish prejudice in the Arab world and Pakistan. But anti Jewish racism is widespread in the nonmuslim world too, including in even America [I have been shocked at the type of stuff I have heard when no Jews are around.]
I would argue that anti Jewish bigotry is worse in Europe than in the Arab world. Take Spain and Portugal in 2010 for example. How many Jewish synagogue were attacked in France in 2002? Europe tried to "solve the Jewish question" in the 1940s. The French, Italian and Spanish publics were complicit in that anti Jewish pogrom.
Anti Jewish hatred is a huge problem around the world, but it is perhaps most serious in Spain, Portugal and Pakistan.
I don't think it is fair to attack the Palestinians as anti Jewish. It is fair to attack non Palestinian Arabs as anti Jewish; however, Palestinians are different from other Arabs. I would argue that how Israelis treat the 1.5 million Palestinians Israeli citizens has more to do with their perceptions of Israelis than "anti Jewish" bigotry.
Del, Sharia can to interpreted multiple ways; including in "modern" ways that are respectful to other religions and cultures. You might be surprised by how much you can learn from and admire about muslims if you open your eyes.
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 4:35 pm
This said, many of the comments here implicitly assume that "modernity" is linked with "westernized culture." I don't agree with this assumption.
Many muslims value modesty in public. This is their choice. In America too, if someone goes in public completely naked, they are subject to fines and a night in the slammer.
Muslims can choose to value modesty in public while being modern.
It is also ethnocentric and wrong to imply that Eastern or muslim culture isn't as "modern" as western culture.
Marian and Ali, please don't conflate "Arabic" culture with "Islamic" culture.
When I think Islamic culture, I think more of Malaysian, Indonesian, Chinese or Indian muslims than a do of Arab muslims. More than half a billion muslims live in Indonesia/India/China/Malaysia; compared with less than 300 million muslims who live in the Arabic world.
Marian, can't a muslim be modern, respectful of other faiths and cultures and successful without being a fan of Haifa Wehbe?
yesjb, there have been many problems throughout the muslim world for more than 13 centuries. However, nonmuslims also have their share of problems.
Yes there is a problem with anti Jewish prejudice in the Arab world and Pakistan. But anti Jewish racism is widespread in the nonmuslim world too, including in even America [I have been shocked at the type of stuff I have heard when no Jews are around.]
I would argue that anti Jewish bigotry is worse in Europe than in the Arab world. Take Spain and Portugal in 2010 for example. How many Jewish synagogue were attacked in France in 2002? Europe tried to "solve the Jewish question" in the 1940s. The French, Italian and Spanish publics were complicit in that anti Jewish pogrom.
Anti Jewish hatred is a huge problem around the world, but it is perhaps most serious in Spain, Portugal and Pakistan.
I don't think it is fair to attack the Palestinians as anti Jewish. It is fair to attack non Palestinian Arabs as anti Jewish; however, Palestinians are different from other Arabs. I would argue that how Israelis treat the 1.5 million Palestinians Israeli citizens has more to do with their perceptions of Israelis than "anti Jewish" bigotry.
Del, Sharia can to interpreted multiple ways; including in "modern" ways that are respectful to other religions and cultures. You might be surprised by how much you can learn from and admire about muslims if you open your eyes.
Anan: Many muslims value modesty in public. This is their choice.
Of course. That's fine. No one cares about that. Americans are modest compared with Europeans. Cultural relativism is appropriate here, at least to an extent.
Throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, as the Taliban does, is way over the line even by strict Islamic standards.
Punishing rape victims is in yet another category. It isn't modest or even over-the-top. It's barbaric. It's so pre-modern than it's not even medieval.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 4:56 pm
Of course. That's fine. No one cares about that. Americans are modest compared with Europeans. Cultural relativism is appropriate here, at least to an extent.
Throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, as the Taliban does, is way over the line even by strict Islamic standards.
Punishing rape victims is in yet another category. It isn't modest or even over-the-top. It's barbaric. It's so pre-modern than it's not even medieval.
I would argue that anti Jewish bigotry is worse in Europe than in the Arab world.
That was true a long time ago, but it's not true today. Arab anti-Semitism still causes wars while European anti-Semitism no longer does.
While Europe has become less anti-Semitic since the Holocaust, the Arab world grafted pre-Holocaust European anti-Semitism onto its own indigenous anti-Semitism and produced a new mega-anti-Semitism.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 5:04 pm
That was true a long time ago, but it's not true today. Arab anti-Semitism still causes wars while European anti-Semitism no longer does.
While Europe has become less anti-Semitic since the Holocaust, the Arab world grafted pre-Holocaust European anti-Semitism onto its own indigenous anti-Semitism and produced a new mega-anti-Semitism.
"Throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, as the Taliban does, is way over the line even by strict Islamic standards."
The Taliban and Takfiris in general are barbaric and anti Islamic. Where in the Koran is it written that acid can be thrown at the faces of woman and girls? The Taliban and Takfiris blaspheme Islam by their improprieties.
"A 23-year-old British woman who was raped while on holiday in Dubai now faces jail in the Gulf state for having illegal sex outside marriage." Still flummoxed by this.
This is a large problem in several muslim majority countries.
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 5:05 pm
The Taliban and Takfiris in general are barbaric and anti Islamic. Where in the Koran is it written that acid can be thrown at the faces of woman and girls? The Taliban and Takfiris blaspheme Islam by their improprieties.
"A 23-year-old British woman who was raped while on holiday in Dubai now faces jail in the Gulf state for having illegal sex outside marriage." Still flummoxed by this.
This is a large problem in several muslim majority countries.
Still flummoxed by this.
Why? That kind of crap happens in the Middle East all the time. I'm a bit surprised to see it happen in Dubai, but not hugely surprised.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 5:12 pm
Why? That kind of crap happens in the Middle East all the time. I'm a bit surprised to see it happen in Dubai, but not hugely surprised.
"Where in the Koran is it written that acid can be thrown at the faces of woman and girls?"
If they are seeking equality with men by pursuing an education or behaving willfully, they are in direct disobedience to Muhammad's decree (via "Allah") that men are superior to women and therefore their masters.
In disobeying they become unbelievers, and as unbelievers, ANYTHING can be done to them.
As for those surprised to see prostitution in Dubai - You are making the mistake of assuming prostitution is illegal of itself in an ideological system in which sexual slavery, rape, and forced insemination are a-okay according to the founder.
Prostitution is perfectly legal in Islam, so long as the trick and the girl engage int he farce of engaging in a temporary "marriage".
Even in a continuing marriage, the Mahr (dowry) is stated explicitly by Muhammad to be payment for sexual use of the woman.
Posted by: Squires at March 16, 2010 6:21 pm
If they are seeking equality with men by pursuing an education or behaving willfully, they are in direct disobedience to Muhammad's decree (via "Allah") that men are superior to women and therefore their masters.
In disobeying they become unbelievers, and as unbelievers, ANYTHING can be done to them.
As for those surprised to see prostitution in Dubai - You are making the mistake of assuming prostitution is illegal of itself in an ideological system in which sexual slavery, rape, and forced insemination are a-okay according to the founder.
Prostitution is perfectly legal in Islam, so long as the trick and the girl engage int he farce of engaging in a temporary "marriage".
Even in a continuing marriage, the Mahr (dowry) is stated explicitly by Muhammad to be payment for sexual use of the woman.
I may have ignored Lebanon, but Lebanon is a small country. It is important, but small compared to the other 300 million Arabs. It too may be part of the shrinking minority because Iran and Syria seem hell-bent on making sure it becomes their colony. And yes Michael, i emailed you a few days ago. Punishing rape victims is not modesty, anan
Posted by: Ali at March 16, 2010 6:58 pm
Squires: Prostitution is perfectly legal in Islam, so long as the trick and the girl engage in the farce of engaging in a temporary "marriage".
That's not how it works in Dubai. That is, however, how it works in Hezbollah's territory.
Ali: I may have ignored Lebanon, but Lebanon is a small country. It is important, but small compared to the other 300 million Arabs.
Yes, but Arabs aren't the only Muslims in the world. Azerbaijan, for instance, makes Lebanon look like Saudi Arabia by comparison.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 7:01 pm
That's not how it works in Dubai. That is, however, how it works in Hezbollah's territory.
Ali: I may have ignored Lebanon, but Lebanon is a small country. It is important, but small compared to the other 300 million Arabs.
Yes, but Arabs aren't the only Muslims in the world. Azerbaijan, for instance, makes Lebanon look like Saudi Arabia by comparison.
Most arabs would not specifically support throwing acid in the faces of girls, but they would enthusiastically support women "knowing their place," whatever that means, in society. And for Anan and his talk about Malaysian culture, I would like to point to Christopher Hitchens's recent article in Slate http://www.slate.com/id/2244045/. I would have to say that Indian, Kosovar, Bosnian, and other non-arab muslims are usually pretty liberal.
Posted by: Ali at March 16, 2010 7:10 pm
According to a Frontline PBS report (do a web search on Dubai, Moldova, prostitution, or similiar) from a couple of years ago, the sex trade in Dubai "employs" mostly but not entirely eastern European (eg Moldovan, Belarussian, Ukrainian and Russian) women who are recruited often under false pretenses (such as told they will have a legitimate job) and then kept in virtual slavery in the Gulf States, with their passports confiscated. Apparently some few women also knowingly and voluntarily choose to become prostitutes (rather an indictment of life in the former Soviet Union). The women are overwhelmingly not Muslim. As such, they are effectively commodities or slaves, and enslavement of kaffir women at one's right hand is a fine thing for a Muslim who believes that the Muslim prophet's example from the koran and ahadith is an "excellent example of conduct".
From the comment above, the "owners" probably give a cut to taxi-drivers, or the like, to recruit visitors or foreign male resident workers. It seems unlikely that the Dubai government, the Al-Maktum racket, is unaware of the prostitution industry. They are probably partly paid-off (although one comment at one of those Frontline articles asserts that the Al-Maktum basically run the industry), but also occasionally crack-down in order to mollify the locals and to ensure that the pimps pay their share.
My guess is that the 23 year old non-prostitute visitor is basically indistinguishable, in the eyes of the Dubai Authorities, from the sex-slave-prostitutes, and is being treated as a prostitute caught in a crackdown would also be.
The law is Shariah. The crime is sex-outside-of-marriage. Flexibility is innovation. Innovation is haram. Guilty. Next case.
Posted by: del at March 16, 2010 8:28 pm
From the comment above, the "owners" probably give a cut to taxi-drivers, or the like, to recruit visitors or foreign male resident workers. It seems unlikely that the Dubai government, the Al-Maktum racket, is unaware of the prostitution industry. They are probably partly paid-off (although one comment at one of those Frontline articles asserts that the Al-Maktum basically run the industry), but also occasionally crack-down in order to mollify the locals and to ensure that the pimps pay their share.
My guess is that the 23 year old non-prostitute visitor is basically indistinguishable, in the eyes of the Dubai Authorities, from the sex-slave-prostitutes, and is being treated as a prostitute caught in a crackdown would also be.
The law is Shariah. The crime is sex-outside-of-marriage. Flexibility is innovation. Innovation is haram. Guilty. Next case.
Pat Patterson,
Ok. Thank you for your response. I apologize for my (restrained) anger toward you.
Posted by: del at March 16, 2010 8:35 pm
Ok. Thank you for your response. I apologize for my (restrained) anger toward you.
The Quran explicitly permits wife beating in sura 4:34. And recently an Algerian imam denounced a law against wife beating as unislamic. When the queen of Jordan attempted to have the penalty for honor killings increased, the religious faction in Parliament rejected the proposal as being against Islam.
The Muslim nations are the only ones, having entered reservations to CEDAW (the international convention on the elimination of discrimination against women) on explicitly religious grounds. The family law of Egypt, Jordan and almost all Muslim nations is slanted against women of which most Muslims to varying degrees approve.
Posted by: Danish Citizen at March 16, 2010 9:20 pm
The Muslim nations are the only ones, having entered reservations to CEDAW (the international convention on the elimination of discrimination against women) on explicitly religious grounds. The family law of Egypt, Jordan and almost all Muslim nations is slanted against women of which most Muslims to varying degrees approve.
"I would argue that anti Jewish bigotry is worse in Europe than in the Arab world"
I would argue that an organization that you tirelessly champion, Hamas, that explicitly calls for the murder of Jews - not settlers, not Zionists, not Israelis, but *all Jews* - is the worst example of antisemitism since Hitler's Nazis. As always, anand, you are packed so full of dishonest, lying antisemitic horseshit that it's spurting out your ears in jet streams. Your sole reason for posting here is to advocate for gangs such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the repressive bloody Iranian mullahs who have nothing but malevolence and murder in their heart for Jews.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 16, 2010 9:42 pm
I would argue that an organization that you tirelessly champion, Hamas, that explicitly calls for the murder of Jews - not settlers, not Zionists, not Israelis, but *all Jews* - is the worst example of antisemitism since Hitler's Nazis. As always, anand, you are packed so full of dishonest, lying antisemitic horseshit that it's spurting out your ears in jet streams. Your sole reason for posting here is to advocate for gangs such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the repressive bloody Iranian mullahs who have nothing but malevolence and murder in their heart for Jews.
"Anti Jewish hatred is a huge problem around the world"
It's a big problem right here in these comments with the likes of anand, fnord and ombrageux. anand has laughed at the thought of Jews being slaughtered in Muslim countries. That is the real anand.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 16, 2010 9:45 pm
It's a big problem right here in these comments with the likes of anand, fnord and ombrageux. anand has laughed at the thought of Jews being slaughtered in Muslim countries. That is the real anand.
I hasten to add that my last comment should not be interpreted as a call for censorship here. Even the aforementioned vermin have their free speech rights.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 16, 2010 9:50 pm
Gary Rosen, what is your problem? Are you an Israeli or an American.
Understand that we Americans have the right to follow our own foreign policy and advance our own national interests. We have many allies around the world; of which Israel is only one . . . and not even close to the most important one.
Today there are over 50 other countries fighting side by side with us in Afghanistan. Israel is not one of them.
Jordan fights side by side with us in Afghanistan. A section of Jordanian special forces is in Zabul alongside 800 Romanian, 1000 US, over half a brigade of ANA, and the Romanian lead Zabul ISAF PRT.
Jordan is on the verge of training 3,000 ANP officers for 9 months a piece every year on Jordanian soil.
Turkey's contribution to Afghanistan is larger than Jordan's.
Fnord's country is also a large contributor to ISAF in Afghanistan.
Iraq will soon become a middle eastern superpower which exports over 10 million barrels of oil per day, not to speak of Natural Gas. Let me repeat, Iraq will be the biggest producer of oil in the world, bigger than even America, Russia and Saudi Arabia.
Iraq's military is likely to be the highest quality military in the Arab world over the medium term.
There is no more committed enemy of Al Qaeda in the world than the Iraqis.
We Americans share a common enemy with many of our allies. This common enemy is the Takfiris, including AQ.
Shouldn't we ask ourselves who can help us in this struggle; and what we should do out of gratitude to our friends?
If Iraq, Turkey and Jordan want us to be pro Palestinian; and if America benefits from Palestinian success; why not be pro Palestinian?
Being pro Palestinian isn't anti Israeli. Rather, it is pro Israeli; since no one benefits more from Palestinian success than Israelis.
The Takfiri, Taliban, and AQ are Iran's mortal enemies. Many Afghans and GIs on the ground in Afghanistan are puzzled that ISAF and Iran aren't working more closely together against our common enemy.
Oh, and anti Jewish bigotry is a big problem in Europe. It is deeply rooted in academia, the left, and the right.
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 10:35 pm
Understand that we Americans have the right to follow our own foreign policy and advance our own national interests. We have many allies around the world; of which Israel is only one . . . and not even close to the most important one.
Today there are over 50 other countries fighting side by side with us in Afghanistan. Israel is not one of them.
Jordan fights side by side with us in Afghanistan. A section of Jordanian special forces is in Zabul alongside 800 Romanian, 1000 US, over half a brigade of ANA, and the Romanian lead Zabul ISAF PRT.
Jordan is on the verge of training 3,000 ANP officers for 9 months a piece every year on Jordanian soil.
Turkey's contribution to Afghanistan is larger than Jordan's.
Fnord's country is also a large contributor to ISAF in Afghanistan.
Iraq will soon become a middle eastern superpower which exports over 10 million barrels of oil per day, not to speak of Natural Gas. Let me repeat, Iraq will be the biggest producer of oil in the world, bigger than even America, Russia and Saudi Arabia.
Iraq's military is likely to be the highest quality military in the Arab world over the medium term.
There is no more committed enemy of Al Qaeda in the world than the Iraqis.
We Americans share a common enemy with many of our allies. This common enemy is the Takfiris, including AQ.
Shouldn't we ask ourselves who can help us in this struggle; and what we should do out of gratitude to our friends?
If Iraq, Turkey and Jordan want us to be pro Palestinian; and if America benefits from Palestinian success; why not be pro Palestinian?
Being pro Palestinian isn't anti Israeli. Rather, it is pro Israeli; since no one benefits more from Palestinian success than Israelis.
The Takfiri, Taliban, and AQ are Iran's mortal enemies. Many Afghans and GIs on the ground in Afghanistan are puzzled that ISAF and Iran aren't working more closely together against our common enemy.
Oh, and anti Jewish bigotry is a big problem in Europe. It is deeply rooted in academia, the left, and the right.
Anan: Today there are over 50 other countries fighting side by side with us in Afghanistan. Israel is not one of them.
And why to you suppose that is?
Being pro Palestinian isn't anti Israeli.
That can be true to an extent. (I wish Palestinians well and would like to see Gaza transform itself into a prosperous Palestinian Riviera on the Mediterranean at peace with itself and its neighbors. I'd be thrilled to see it, though I have no expectation whatsoever of it actually happening any time soon.)
Being pro-Hamas is certainly anti-Israeli. It is also anti-Palestinian.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 10:57 pm
And why to you suppose that is?
Being pro Palestinian isn't anti Israeli.
That can be true to an extent. (I wish Palestinians well and would like to see Gaza transform itself into a prosperous Palestinian Riviera on the Mediterranean at peace with itself and its neighbors. I'd be thrilled to see it, though I have no expectation whatsoever of it actually happening any time soon.)
Being pro-Hamas is certainly anti-Israeli. It is also anti-Palestinian.
Once again anand proves his fanatic, unrepentant antisemitism by flinging the "dual loyalty" card, even though not a word I've said here has to do with American Mideast policy but only with the *FACT* that the organizations anand relentlessly advocates for are unapologetic antisemitic annihilationists. Thanks for proving my point, anand.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 16, 2010 11:19 pm
Let the Palestinians have another free and fair election. No party, Fatah, Hamas, Mustafa Barghouti, is likely to win a clear majority. The next Palestinian government is likely to be a coalition government. Whether Palestinians choose a coalition government that included Hamas or does not include Hamas is their choice.
Hamas today portrays itself very differently from how it did a decade ago, when it practiced terrorism.
Hamas publicly talks about 10 year or generational Hudnas with Israel (their terminology for a peace agreement with Israel.) Hamas now opposes suicide attacks against Israel and publicly says it is focused on improving governance, reducing corruption and economic development.
Hamas is likely to do poorly in the next election because of their failures on the economic front, and because of the over one thousands Palestinians that have died in the Fatah/Hamas war . . . plus Hamas repression of Palestinians they disagree with.
Today, Hamas' militia would likely do poorly against the new Palestinian National Security Forces in an all out war.
The Palestinian people can handle Hamas. Let them.
I am hopeful that the Palestinian people will elect more enlightened leadership such as Barghouti over Hamas. Hamas has many failures in:
-private sector business development
-education reform
-their war with Fatah which killed many Palestinians and weakened Palestinian unity and leverage with respect to Israel
-their suppression of Palestinian freedoms (including suppression of Barghouti and Fatah followers)
-quality of civilian governance
-poor job in training the Palestinian security forces, including their militia
-their war with the Arab League, Europe, America, UN, international community at the expense of fighting for the Palestinian people.
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 11:24 pm
Hamas today portrays itself very differently from how it did a decade ago, when it practiced terrorism.
Hamas publicly talks about 10 year or generational Hudnas with Israel (their terminology for a peace agreement with Israel.) Hamas now opposes suicide attacks against Israel and publicly says it is focused on improving governance, reducing corruption and economic development.
Hamas is likely to do poorly in the next election because of their failures on the economic front, and because of the over one thousands Palestinians that have died in the Fatah/Hamas war . . . plus Hamas repression of Palestinians they disagree with.
Today, Hamas' militia would likely do poorly against the new Palestinian National Security Forces in an all out war.
The Palestinian people can handle Hamas. Let them.
I am hopeful that the Palestinian people will elect more enlightened leadership such as Barghouti over Hamas. Hamas has many failures in:
-private sector business development
-education reform
-their war with Fatah which killed many Palestinians and weakened Palestinian unity and leverage with respect to Israel
-their suppression of Palestinian freedoms (including suppression of Barghouti and Fatah followers)
-quality of civilian governance
-poor job in training the Palestinian security forces, including their militia
-their war with the Arab League, Europe, America, UN, international community at the expense of fighting for the Palestinian people.
Also note that anand once again advocates for the brutally repressive bloody mullahs of Iran - a country whose standard of living is lower than that of the Palestinians he is always crying his Jew-baiting crocodile tears over. anand doesn't give a flying fuck about the well-being of *anyone* in the Mideast, Arab, Persian or whatever. He just wants to murder all the Jews like his buddies in Hamas.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 16, 2010 11:25 pm
Anan: Hamas today portrays itself very differently from how it did a decade ago, when it practiced terrorism.
Don't be ridiculous.
Whether Palestinians choose a coalition government that included Hamas or does not include Hamas is their choice.
Gaza ain't Belgium. You do realize that Hamas murders and tortures its Palestinian political opponents. It's impossible to make a proper coalition government with such people.
The Palestinian people can handle Hamas.
The Israelis can't if Hamas continues (and it will) its violent campaign for the destruction of Israel.
I am hopeful that the Palestinian people will elect more enlightened leadership such as Barghouti over Hamas.
You're right that he's more enlightened than Hamas. But he's still a terrorist.
I have a better idea. How about we support the people who aren't terrorists and would rather live in peace with their neighbors? There are Palestinians who fit that description, you know.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 11:31 pm
Don't be ridiculous.
Whether Palestinians choose a coalition government that included Hamas or does not include Hamas is their choice.
Gaza ain't Belgium. You do realize that Hamas murders and tortures its Palestinian political opponents. It's impossible to make a proper coalition government with such people.
The Palestinian people can handle Hamas.
The Israelis can't if Hamas continues (and it will) its violent campaign for the destruction of Israel.
I am hopeful that the Palestinian people will elect more enlightened leadership such as Barghouti over Hamas.
You're right that he's more enlightened than Hamas. But he's still a terrorist.
I have a better idea. How about we support the people who aren't terrorists and would rather live in peace with their neighbors? There are Palestinians who fit that description, you know.
Is any Palestinian national unity coalition government that has Hamas support by definition an "unapologetic antisemitic annihilationist?"
Gary, what is wrong with asking Iran to join ISAF and NTM-A in Afghanistan? This is what most Afghans seem to want. Let the Afghan Government formally invite Iran to join ISAF and the NTM-A. Let Iran decide if it wants to contribute to their Afghan friends or to free-ride.
Just because you disagree with the Iranian government on other issues doesn't mean that you can't work with Iran on Afghanistan/Pakistan?
How does attempting dialogue with Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas to see what is possible hurt America? If you are American, don't you support advancing American interests?
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 11:33 pm
Gary, what is wrong with asking Iran to join ISAF and NTM-A in Afghanistan? This is what most Afghans seem to want. Let the Afghan Government formally invite Iran to join ISAF and the NTM-A. Let Iran decide if it wants to contribute to their Afghan friends or to free-ride.
Just because you disagree with the Iranian government on other issues doesn't mean that you can't work with Iran on Afghanistan/Pakistan?
How does attempting dialogue with Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas to see what is possible hurt America? If you are American, don't you support advancing American interests?
"Hamas today portrays itself very differently from how it did a decade ago, when it practiced terrorism."
Hamas still practices terrorism, it is merely prevented from carrying it out by the Israeli military action that was a response to their rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. Of course those attacks were in complete accord with their charter:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
from which:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
This is anand's policy towards Jews, as expressed by the outfit he continually expresses such love and devotion toward. The last time I posted it anand actually tried to question it even though I have an indisputable link. It's like the old Lenny Bruce routine about cheating on your wife - "Deny it, deny it, even if they have pictures deny it" - except that it's not very funny. anand, though, is undoubtedly laughing his ass off at the idea of Jews being murdered.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 16, 2010 11:36 pm
Hamas still practices terrorism, it is merely prevented from carrying it out by the Israeli military action that was a response to their rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. Of course those attacks were in complete accord with their charter:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
from which:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
This is anand's policy towards Jews, as expressed by the outfit he continually expresses such love and devotion toward. The last time I posted it anand actually tried to question it even though I have an indisputable link. It's like the old Lenny Bruce routine about cheating on your wife - "Deny it, deny it, even if they have pictures deny it" - except that it's not very funny. anand, though, is undoubtedly laughing his ass off at the idea of Jews being murdered.
MJT, I don't have a problem with you or anyone else attacking Hamas, since most Palestinians attack Hamas; many of them far more viciously than you do.
The biggest threat to Hamas in Palestine is Mustafa Bargouti; his followers have also been greatly persecuted by Hamas.
If you want to defeat Hamas, why not support Mustafa Barghouti? Granted, I don't know nearly enough about him; but from what little I have seen I have been very impressed.
In fact he is my favorite Palestinian leader. Are you confusing him with Marwan Barghouti?
Mustafa Barghouti is a strong advocate of nonviolence; and wants good economic relations between Israel and Palestine.
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 11:42 pm
The biggest threat to Hamas in Palestine is Mustafa Bargouti; his followers have also been greatly persecuted by Hamas.
If you want to defeat Hamas, why not support Mustafa Barghouti? Granted, I don't know nearly enough about him; but from what little I have seen I have been very impressed.
In fact he is my favorite Palestinian leader. Are you confusing him with Marwan Barghouti?
Mustafa Barghouti is a strong advocate of nonviolence; and wants good economic relations between Israel and Palestine.
I would like a Hamas response explaining their charter. Most Palestinians dislike Hamas(Fatah and Barghouti followers.)
Is there someone in Hamas that could be e-mailed for comment?
Hamas should amend their founding document ASAP.
Posted by: anan at March 16, 2010 11:47 pm
Is there someone in Hamas that could be e-mailed for comment?
Hamas should amend their founding document ASAP.
Anan: Gary, what is wrong with asking Iran to join ISAF and NTM-A in Afghanistan?
Because Iran is a fascist state that brutalizes its people and is the biggest supporter of terrorists in the world.
How does attempting dialogue with Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas to see what is possible hurt America?
Because it's a waste of time. They refuse to negotiate, and we can't change that.
Hamas should amend their founding document ASAP.
Yes, but they won't because it accurately explains their ideology. If they changed it today, they'd be lying.
The biggest threat to Hamas in Palestine is Mustafa Bargouti; his followers have also been greatly persecuted by Hamas.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Marwan Barghouti. He is a terrorist, although he used to be sort of okay.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 16, 2010 11:56 pm
Because Iran is a fascist state that brutalizes its people and is the biggest supporter of terrorists in the world.
How does attempting dialogue with Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas to see what is possible hurt America?
Because it's a waste of time. They refuse to negotiate, and we can't change that.
Hamas should amend their founding document ASAP.
Yes, but they won't because it accurately explains their ideology. If they changed it today, they'd be lying.
The biggest threat to Hamas in Palestine is Mustafa Bargouti; his followers have also been greatly persecuted by Hamas.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Marwan Barghouti. He is a terrorist, although he used to be sort of okay.
How is being pro-Hamas "anti-Palestinian"?
Posted by: del at March 16, 2010 11:57 pm
del: How is being pro-Hamas "anti-Palestinian"?
Because Hamas destroyed Gaza and would do the same to the West Bank (and, of course, Israel) if given the chance.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 17, 2010 12:00 am
Because Hamas destroyed Gaza and would do the same to the West Bank (and, of course, Israel) if given the chance.
MJT: Go to Beirut some time. Its libertarianism is authentic.
I would love to go to Beirut, but I fear that as a dual citizen of Israel I would be in REAL danger of being kidnapped by Hizbollah and held for ransom, and I wouldn't blame the Israeli government for giving up on me if I was so utterly stupid to do something like that.
So yes, Lebanon might be truly permissive and libertarian, but its not exactly a paradise for freedom lovers everywhere.......
And MJT, I know you are aware of this and that wasn't your point, but its actually a concern for me since there are certain places where I have to tell the company i work for I just can't go. Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Sudan, Libya, Pakistan to name a few. Saudi Arabia is also pretty much out of the question. Malaysia and Indonesia are difficult too.
Now tell me, other than Israelis, are there any other nationalities that are FORBIDDEN to enter any countries? I think everyone else can visit pretty much any country in the world, right? You might need a visa, and it might take some time and effort, but you can swing it if you need (or want) to. Or am I mistaken?
Posted by: jonorose at March 17, 2010 1:37 am
I would love to go to Beirut, but I fear that as a dual citizen of Israel I would be in REAL danger of being kidnapped by Hizbollah and held for ransom, and I wouldn't blame the Israeli government for giving up on me if I was so utterly stupid to do something like that.
So yes, Lebanon might be truly permissive and libertarian, but its not exactly a paradise for freedom lovers everywhere.......
And MJT, I know you are aware of this and that wasn't your point, but its actually a concern for me since there are certain places where I have to tell the company i work for I just can't go. Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Sudan, Libya, Pakistan to name a few. Saudi Arabia is also pretty much out of the question. Malaysia and Indonesia are difficult too.
Now tell me, other than Israelis, are there any other nationalities that are FORBIDDEN to enter any countries? I think everyone else can visit pretty much any country in the world, right? You might need a visa, and it might take some time and effort, but you can swing it if you need (or want) to. Or am I mistaken?
del,
My guess is that the 23 year old non-prostitute visitor is basically indistinguishable, in the eyes of the Dubai Authorities, from the sex-slave-prostitutes, and is being treated as a prostitute caught in a crackdown would also be.
That was a very perceptive comment, and I'm guessing you're pretty close to the truth there. A couple articles you might find interesting:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/03/united-arab-e-1.html
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100212/NATIONAL/702119827/0/TRAVEL
There's a court case pending in that one as we speak. And it was a taxi driver who was taking her "home" after delivering her to a client who decided to drive her to her embassy instead that caused the scandal and resulting court case. There's no way the authorities in Dubai can claim they don't know about the sex trade in Dubai.
Muslim women are victimized in the same way, though. I've read many stories of Iranian and Pakistani women being sold into the slave trade in UAE, and I think I read an article a few months ago about a court case involving Moroccan and Tunisian women. Also, it's important to note that the same problem is rampant in East Asia and in Eastern Europe. I really don't think Islam has anything to do with it, although it may be particularly difficult for victims to see justice done in Muslim countries.
Anand,
Many Afghans and GIs on the ground in Afghanistan are puzzled that ISAF and Iran aren't working more closely together against our common enemy.
I'd be shocked if there was any significant portion of American GIs who wanted to work closely together - or work together at all - with the Islamic Republic, anand. If true, the US obviously needs to educate its troops better about the history between the two nations. The Islamic Republic did us a lot of harm in both Iraq and in Lebanon, and the proposition that something good might come in Afghanistan from inviting such a bad actor as the IRGC into the country seems pretty crazy. Do you have some documentation on that?
Posted by: Craig at March 17, 2010 5:40 am
My guess is that the 23 year old non-prostitute visitor is basically indistinguishable, in the eyes of the Dubai Authorities, from the sex-slave-prostitutes, and is being treated as a prostitute caught in a crackdown would also be.
That was a very perceptive comment, and I'm guessing you're pretty close to the truth there. A couple articles you might find interesting:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/03/united-arab-e-1.html
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100212/NATIONAL/702119827/0/TRAVEL
There's a court case pending in that one as we speak. And it was a taxi driver who was taking her "home" after delivering her to a client who decided to drive her to her embassy instead that caused the scandal and resulting court case. There's no way the authorities in Dubai can claim they don't know about the sex trade in Dubai.
Muslim women are victimized in the same way, though. I've read many stories of Iranian and Pakistani women being sold into the slave trade in UAE, and I think I read an article a few months ago about a court case involving Moroccan and Tunisian women. Also, it's important to note that the same problem is rampant in East Asia and in Eastern Europe. I really don't think Islam has anything to do with it, although it may be particularly difficult for victims to see justice done in Muslim countries.
Anand,
Many Afghans and GIs on the ground in Afghanistan are puzzled that ISAF and Iran aren't working more closely together against our common enemy.
I'd be shocked if there was any significant portion of American GIs who wanted to work closely together - or work together at all - with the Islamic Republic, anand. If true, the US obviously needs to educate its troops better about the history between the two nations. The Islamic Republic did us a lot of harm in both Iraq and in Lebanon, and the proposition that something good might come in Afghanistan from inviting such a bad actor as the IRGC into the country seems pretty crazy. Do you have some documentation on that?
Jonorose;
The American government prohibits its citizens from visiting Cuba.
However, I do not think violations are punished.
Posted by: Toady at March 17, 2010 5:48 am
The American government prohibits its citizens from visiting Cuba.
However, I do not think violations are punished.
PS anand,
Hamas publicly talks about 10 year or generational Hudnas with Israel (their terminology for a peace agreement with Israel.)
Sorry, anand, but a "hudna" is a temporary ceasefire, not a peace treaty. And teh Quran explicitly states that a ceasefire can and SHOULD be broken if Muslims suspect their enemy of duplicity. Which in effect makes a ceasefire with Muslims worthless, because there is always a suspicion of duplicity when it comes to ceasefire agreements.
Hamas now opposes suicide attacks against Israel and publicly says it is focused on improving governance, reducing corruption and economic development.
That's great. Let me know when the leadership of Hamas gets put on trial for what they did in the second intifada, and when Hamas is put under new management that doesn't have the blood of innocents on its hands.
Posted by: Craig at March 17, 2010 5:49 am
Hamas publicly talks about 10 year or generational Hudnas with Israel (their terminology for a peace agreement with Israel.)
Sorry, anand, but a "hudna" is a temporary ceasefire, not a peace treaty. And teh Quran explicitly states that a ceasefire can and SHOULD be broken if Muslims suspect their enemy of duplicity. Which in effect makes a ceasefire with Muslims worthless, because there is always a suspicion of duplicity when it comes to ceasefire agreements.
Hamas now opposes suicide attacks against Israel and publicly says it is focused on improving governance, reducing corruption and economic development.
That's great. Let me know when the leadership of Hamas gets put on trial for what they did in the second intifada, and when Hamas is put under new management that doesn't have the blood of innocents on its hands.
Toady:
That's not the same thing. That's the US banning its citizens from visiting another country. Israel does that as well in a sense that it is forbidden for us to visit an enemy country like Lebanon or Syria, but that's for our own safety.
But is there a law in Cuba that says that Americans are not wanted in Cuba?
Posted by: jonorose at March 17, 2010 5:53 am
That's not the same thing. That's the US banning its citizens from visiting another country. Israel does that as well in a sense that it is forbidden for us to visit an enemy country like Lebanon or Syria, but that's for our own safety.
But is there a law in Cuba that says that Americans are not wanted in Cuba?
Now tell me, other than Israelis, are there any other nationalities that are FORBIDDEN to enter any countries? I think everyone else can visit pretty much any country in the world, right? You might need a visa, and it might take some time and effort, but you can swing it if you need (or want) to. Or am I mistaken?
In addition to Cuba, Iran is a no-go for Americans. Although, Iranian-Americans travel to Iran regularly.
But like he says, nobody enforces it. The State Departments says "don't go" but they don't do anything about it if people go anyway.
Posted by: Craig at March 17, 2010 5:57 am
In addition to Cuba, Iran is a no-go for Americans. Although, Iranian-Americans travel to Iran regularly.
But like he says, nobody enforces it. The State Departments says "don't go" but they don't do anything about it if people go anyway.
anand,
Just to be clear, your comment about Israel not helping out in Afganistan is so incredibly stupid that it makes me wonder if you're living in a parallel dimension. I can only shake my head.
But unfortunately it meshes with the rest of your sophistry.
BTW, there is more than one way to fight and I wouldn't be surprised if Israel is supplying intelligence information to the Americans in Iraq.
And their drones are in fact being used in Afganistan.
As far as attacking Jews and synagogues in Europe these days perhaps you'd like to check out whether these attackers are Christians or more likely Muslim immigrants from les banlieues de Paris for example.
We know they are and your dissembling comments are proof of your attempts to portray black as white.
It may have been Himmler who suggested packaging a little truth with a big lie and people will believe the big lie as the whole truth.
Congrats, anand on assuming the mantle.
Posted by: jb at March 17, 2010 6:41 am
Just to be clear, your comment about Israel not helping out in Afganistan is so incredibly stupid that it makes me wonder if you're living in a parallel dimension. I can only shake my head.
But unfortunately it meshes with the rest of your sophistry.
BTW, there is more than one way to fight and I wouldn't be surprised if Israel is supplying intelligence information to the Americans in Iraq.
And their drones are in fact being used in Afganistan.
As far as attacking Jews and synagogues in Europe these days perhaps you'd like to check out whether these attackers are Christians or more likely Muslim immigrants from les banlieues de Paris for example.
We know they are and your dissembling comments are proof of your attempts to portray black as white.
It may have been Himmler who suggested packaging a little truth with a big lie and people will believe the big lie as the whole truth.
Congrats, anand on assuming the mantle.
"Hamas should amend their founding document ASAP."
You're just backpedaling now, liar.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 17, 2010 7:20 am
You're just backpedaling now, liar.
"Just to be clear, your comment about Israel not helping out in Afganistan is so incredibly stupid that it makes me wonder if you're living in a parallel dimension."
anand inhabits the antisemitic dimension. One of the saving graces of being Jewish is that antisemites are always nitwits, misfucks and born losers who can't honestly deal with the dysfunction and failure of their own lives so they blame everything on da Jooos. anand is a perfect example of this.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at March 17, 2010 7:23 am
anand inhabits the antisemitic dimension. One of the saving graces of being Jewish is that antisemites are always nitwits, misfucks and born losers who can't honestly deal with the dysfunction and failure of their own lives so they blame everything on da Jooos. anand is a perfect example of this.
Thisonesferyou, Anand. Your cuppa tea. Milk? Sugar? No. Don't thank me. You're welcome.
MEMRI
February 28, 2010 Clip No. 2415
Hamas Deputy Minister of Religious Endowments: Jews Are Bacteria, Not Human Beings
"The following are excerpts from an interview with Abdallah Jarbu', Hamas deputy minister of religious endowments, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 28, 2010.
Abdallah Jarbu': [The Jews] suffer from a mental disorder, because they are thieves and aggressors. A thief or an aggressor, who took property or land, develops a psychological disorder and pangs of conscience, because he took something that wasn't his.
They want to present themselves to the world as if they have rights, but, in fact, they are foreign bacteria – a microbe unparalleled in the world. It's not me who says this. The Koran itself says that they have no parallel: "You shall find the strongest men in enmity to the believers to be the Jews."
May He annihilate this filthy people who have neither religion nor conscience. I condemn whoever believes in normalizing relations with them, whoever supports sitting down with them, and whoever believes that they are human beings. They are not human beings. They are not people. They have no religion, no conscience, and no moral values."
Posted by: del at March 17, 2010 7:28 am
MEMRI
February 28, 2010 Clip No. 2415
Hamas Deputy Minister of Religious Endowments: Jews Are Bacteria, Not Human Beings
"The following are excerpts from an interview with Abdallah Jarbu', Hamas deputy minister of religious endowments, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 28, 2010.
Abdallah Jarbu': [The Jews] suffer from a mental disorder, because they are thieves and aggressors. A thief or an aggressor, who took property or land, develops a psychological disorder and pangs of conscience, because he took something that wasn't his.
They want to present themselves to the world as if they have rights, but, in fact, they are foreign bacteria – a microbe unparalleled in the world. It's not me who says this. The Koran itself says that they have no parallel: "You shall find the strongest men in enmity to the believers to be the Jews."
May He annihilate this filthy people who have neither religion nor conscience. I condemn whoever believes in normalizing relations with them, whoever supports sitting down with them, and whoever believes that they are human beings. They are not human beings. They are not people. They have no religion, no conscience, and no moral values."
Del, thank you for the Hamas quote. Is there anyplace I can post your quote to get a comment from Hamas or a Hamas sympathizer?
I ask this, because I don't know of a single Palestinian blog with pro Hamas commentators who will defend Hamas.
jb, do you really think that anti Jewish racism is restricted to Arab muslims in Europe? Let us ignore the racist implicit assumption that Arab muslim Europeans aren't as European as any other European.
Anti Jewish prejudice is deeply felt among non muslim Europeans. How much exposure to European academia have you had? Anti Jewish racism is different from criticism of Israel. Many Europeans are anti Jewish.
If Israel secretly allies itself with the Iraqi Government, the ISF, the Afghan government and the ANSF; and offers them material help; then God bless Israel. Do you have any evidence that this is true?
BTW, if not for substantial Israel help 1980-1988, Saddam may well have defeated Khomeini. I praise Israel for doing the right thing in resisting Saddam 1980-1988.
If Israel was allied with Khomeini 1980-1988; why can't America engage in dialogue with Iran?
Craig, US/Iranian collaboration in 2001 and 2002 in Afghanistan is some degree open source. US and Iranian special forces fought side by side within the Northern Alliance. Iranian and US aircraft landed on the same air fields in support of the Northern Alliance.
Many of the top generals in the ANA, ANP and NDS have close relationship with top Iranian officials.
Posted by: anan at March 17, 2010 8:38 am
I ask this, because I don't know of a single Palestinian blog with pro Hamas commentators who will defend Hamas.
jb, do you really think that anti Jewish racism is restricted to Arab muslims in Europe? Let us ignore the racist implicit assumption that Arab muslim Europeans aren't as European as any other European.
Anti Jewish prejudice is deeply felt among non muslim Europeans. How much exposure to European academia have you had? Anti Jewish racism is different from criticism of Israel. Many Europeans are anti Jewish.
If Israel secretly allies itself with the Iraqi Government, the ISF, the Afghan government and the ANSF; and offers them material help; then God bless Israel. Do you have any evidence that this is true?
BTW, if not for substantial Israel help 1980-1988, Saddam may well have defeated Khomeini. I praise Israel for doing the right thing in resisting Saddam 1980-1988.
If Israel was allied with Khomeini 1980-1988; why can't America engage in dialogue with Iran?
Craig, US/Iranian collaboration in 2001 and 2002 in Afghanistan is some degree open source. US and Iranian special forces fought side by side within the Northern Alliance. Iranian and US aircraft landed on the same air fields in support of the Northern Alliance.
Many of the top generals in the ANA, ANP and NDS have close relationship with top Iranian officials.
anand,
Just send Hamas an email and ask them to comment directly. Maybe you could include it with your above planned request that the Hamas Charter be modified. Or maybe it would be better to split these into two emails. Tough call. Your call.
Posted by: del at March 17, 2010 8:45 am
Just send Hamas an email and ask them to comment directly. Maybe you could include it with your above planned request that the Hamas Charter be modified. Or maybe it would be better to split these into two emails. Tough call. Your call.
Craig at March 17, 2010 5:40 am
Craig, abuse of woman is a big challenge in the Arab world. There is no getting around that. But I hope Dubai is better than that.
jonorose, it is tragic and wrong that you can't visit so many countries. Are you sure you can't visit Malaysia and Indonesia either? Malaysia's tech businesses could benefit greatly by collaboration with Israelis.
If only every country allowed Israelis to visit their countries freely to conduct business or work. If only Israelis allowed Palestinians to visit Israel freely to conduct business and work.
Why can't the world have free trade and free investment with Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. Why can't Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have free trade and free investment with respect to each other?
Posted by: anan at March 17, 2010 8:57 am
Craig, abuse of woman is a big challenge in the Arab world. There is no getting around that. But I hope Dubai is better than that.
jonorose, it is tragic and wrong that you can't visit so many countries. Are you sure you can't visit Malaysia and Indonesia either? Malaysia's tech businesses could benefit greatly by collaboration with Israelis.
If only every country allowed Israelis to visit their countries freely to conduct business or work. If only Israelis allowed Palestinians to visit Israel freely to conduct business and work.
Why can't the world have free trade and free investment with Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. Why can't Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have free trade and free investment with respect to each other?
Del, why are you so flippant? Could you suggest an e-mail address for either Hamas or Hamas supporters? Seriously. Aren't you curious about their response?
Posted by: anan at March 17, 2010 8:59 am
Jonorose: Now tell me, other than Israelis, are there any other nationalities that are FORBIDDEN to enter any countries?
Not that I am aware of it. And I think that's creepy.
I am also banned from Lebanon because I've visited Israel, but as you can see that ban isn't enforced. Lebanese government officials know that I've been to Israel many times, and they do not care as long as I don't get my passport stamped. They only pretend to care about this because the Syrian government leans on them about it.
Toady: The American government prohibits its citizens from visiting Cuba.
Different situation. I can visit Cuba legally as an American journalist. And Cuba doesn't mind at all if we visit even though we're supposedly enemies.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 17, 2010 9:10 am
Not that I am aware of it. And I think that's creepy.
I am also banned from Lebanon because I've visited Israel, but as you can see that ban isn't enforced. Lebanese government officials know that I've been to Israel many times, and they do not care as long as I don't get my passport stamped. They only pretend to care about this because the Syrian government leans on them about it.
Toady: The American government prohibits its citizens from visiting Cuba.
Different situation. I can visit Cuba legally as an American journalist. And Cuba doesn't mind at all if we visit even though we're supposedly enemies.
Anan: Why can't Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have free trade and free investment with respect to each other?
Because of relentless hatred, violence, and stupidity that shows no sign whatsoever of abating any time soon.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 17, 2010 9:18 am
Because of relentless hatred, violence, and stupidity that shows no sign whatsoever of abating any time soon.
anand,
Why would you expect me to have an email address for Hamas or supporters? That is your angle.
The quote I provided you is direct from the asses ass, the Hamas deputy minister for religious affairs. His audience was his compatriots watching official Hamas tv a few weeks ago. He meant what he said and he said what he meant. The quote speaks for itself, so to speak, and should demonstrate to a brain-alive reader that your above blatherings about a Hudna or that Hamas has changed, are, so to speak, unreliable.
You really can't find a single Palestinian Arab who supports Hamas? How did Hamas win the last election?
By the way, perhaps I missed it, but I think many readers are still on tenterhooks waiting for the results of your important discussion with Sunni Muslim Imams which you tantalized us with on the February 16 Quote of the day thread. You wrote:
"To clarify, before I ask these questions:
1) Should I only ask Sunni schools? Is anyone interested in Shiite or Sufi responses?
2) Please clarify exactly what Sunni Hadith and/or Koranic passages you have questions regarding.
I plan to ask about this section:
"“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985); ""
If anyone has any other section they would like to ask about, please specifically mention it. I would also appreciate a specific citation of where in the Hadith or Koran it comes from. "
What's up with that?
Posted by: del at March 17, 2010 9:23 am
Why would you expect me to have an email address for Hamas or supporters? That is your angle.
The quote I provided you is direct from the asses ass, the Hamas deputy minister for religious affairs. His audience was his compatriots watching official Hamas tv a few weeks ago. He meant what he said and he said what he meant. The quote speaks for itself, so to speak, and should demonstrate to a brain-alive reader that your above blatherings about a Hudna or that Hamas has changed, are, so to speak, unreliable.
You really can't find a single Palestinian Arab who supports Hamas? How did Hamas win the last election?
By the way, perhaps I missed it, but I think many readers are still on tenterhooks waiting for the results of your important discussion with Sunni Muslim Imams which you tantalized us with on the February 16 Quote of the day thread. You wrote:
"To clarify, before I ask these questions:
1) Should I only ask Sunni schools? Is anyone interested in Shiite or Sufi responses?
2) Please clarify exactly what Sunni Hadith and/or Koranic passages you have questions regarding.
I plan to ask about this section:
"“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985); ""
If anyone has any other section they would like to ask about, please specifically mention it. I would also appreciate a specific citation of where in the Hadith or Koran it comes from. "
What's up with that?
Anand,
I ask this, because I don't know of a single Palestinian blog with pro Hamas commentators who will defend Hamas.
I don't know if you've noticed, people lie a lot on the (Arab) English language blogs. I think I saw 4 people admitting they support terrorism, after about 6 years of reading Arab blogs. Which is totally effing weird, since the stats in Arab countries for people who support terrorism in a "good" cause is between 50 and 80 percent, depending on the country.
So, anyway, when Imad Mugniyah was killed this guy went into mourning and published a big tribute to him:
http://www.black-iris.com/
Nas (that's him) is Jordanian and presumably Palestinian. Other than the Jarrar brothers, he's the only Palestinian I've ever seen on the blogs supporting terrorism. So I recommend you give him a try. If even he denies supporting Hamas, i don't know what to tell you. But I'm not going to stop condemning Hamas just because all of Hamas's supporters pretend they aren't Hamas supporters.
Craig, US/Iranian collaboration in 2001 and 2002 in Afghanistan is some degree open source.
It's not 2001. Furthermore, Iran only "helped" us because we were working with their boys in teh Northern alliance. And Iran never made good on its promise to send us AQ who they captured while trying to escape Afghanistan. Instead, those AQ ended up in Iraq. So even that goes in the "minus" column for Iran.
US and Iranian special forces fought side by side within the Northern Alliance. Iranian and US aircraft landed on the same air fields in support of the Northern Alliance.
I was going to ask for documentation, but then I decided it doesn't matter. The Islamic Republic is an enemy of the United States. The Quds Force (your "special forces") has murdered hundreds of Americans. The Quds force has also been responsible for the murder of thousands if not tens of thousands of Iraqis. Your idea to invite the Quds force to "help" NATO is crazy, anand. If the Islamic Republic wants to go back to the days when it sponsors pro IRI militias in Afghanistan, squared off against pro-Pakistan Taliban, that's fine with me. But not until the US withdraws. I wouldn't even know who I was supposed to be cheering for in that scenario. I guess bets case is the two sides would beat themselves bloody with neither side achieving dominance, right? But that isn't what the international community is trying to accomplish in Afghanistan.
Many of the top generals in the ANA, ANP and NDS have close relationship with top Iranian officials.
As do many Indian officials. I asked you for documentation about Americans (diplomats and military) who favored inviting Iran into Afghanistan. If any such exist I think Americans have a right to know. Don't you? What would be the name for it if American officials were advocating entering into an alliance with the world's worst (according to the US!) sponsor of international terrorism, in the middle of the war on terror?
Craig, abuse of woman is a big challenge in the Arab world. There is no getting around that. But I hope Dubai is better than that.
From what I can see reading blogs and news articles, Dubai is the worst offender. But maybe it only seems that way because there are more outsiders in Dubai, documenting the problem.
Posted by: Craig at March 17, 2010 1:57 pm
I ask this, because I don't know of a single Palestinian blog with pro Hamas commentators who will defend Hamas.
I don't know if you've noticed, people lie a lot on the (Arab) English language blogs. I think I saw 4 people admitting they support terrorism, after about 6 years of reading Arab blogs. Which is totally effing weird, since the stats in Arab countries for people who support terrorism in a "good" cause is between 50 and 80 percent, depending on the country.
So, anyway, when Imad Mugniyah was killed this guy went into mourning and published a big tribute to him:
http://www.black-iris.com/
Nas (that's him) is Jordanian and presumably Palestinian. Other than the Jarrar brothers, he's the only Palestinian I've ever seen on the blogs supporting terrorism. So I recommend you give him a try. If even he denies supporting Hamas, i don't know what to tell you. But I'm not going to stop condemning Hamas just because all of Hamas's supporters pretend they aren't Hamas supporters.
Craig, US/Iranian collaboration in 2001 and 2002 in Afghanistan is some degree open source.
It's not 2001. Furthermore, Iran only "helped" us because we were working with their boys in teh Northern alliance. And Iran never made good on its promise to send us AQ who they captured while trying to escape Afghanistan. Instead, those AQ ended up in Iraq. So even that goes in the "minus" column for Iran.
US and Iranian special forces fought side by side within the Northern Alliance. Iranian and US aircraft landed on the same air fields in support of the Northern Alliance.
I was going to ask for documentation, but then I decided it doesn't matter. The Islamic Republic is an enemy of the United States. The Quds Force (your "special forces") has murdered hundreds of Americans. The Quds force has also been responsible for the murder of thousands if not tens of thousands of Iraqis. Your idea to invite the Quds force to "help" NATO is crazy, anand. If the Islamic Republic wants to go back to the days when it sponsors pro IRI militias in Afghanistan, squared off against pro-Pakistan Taliban, that's fine with me. But not until the US withdraws. I wouldn't even know who I was supposed to be cheering for in that scenario. I guess bets case is the two sides would beat themselves bloody with neither side achieving dominance, right? But that isn't what the international community is trying to accomplish in Afghanistan.
Many of the top generals in the ANA, ANP and NDS have close relationship with top Iranian officials.
As do many Indian officials. I asked you for documentation about Americans (diplomats and military) who favored inviting Iran into Afghanistan. If any such exist I think Americans have a right to know. Don't you? What would be the name for it if American officials were advocating entering into an alliance with the world's worst (according to the US!) sponsor of international terrorism, in the middle of the war on terror?
Craig, abuse of woman is a big challenge in the Arab world. There is no getting around that. But I hope Dubai is better than that.
From what I can see reading blogs and news articles, Dubai is the worst offender. But maybe it only seems that way because there are more outsiders in Dubai, documenting the problem.
I'm puzzled why you informed critical thinkers who educate me expend so many keystrokes on these wingnuts. Film footage and affidavits from witnesses wouldn't sway their belief. I scroll to the end of a post now to decide whether I'll read it or not. At least I learn more from your side of the back-and-forth, but if anything doesn't justify more joint aches it's these guys.
Posted by: Paul S. at March 17, 2010 5:14 pm
Looks like there are even worse things going on in Dubai.
http://www.escapefromdubai.com/
Vilmos
Posted by: Vilmos at March 17, 2010 9:48 pm
http://www.escapefromdubai.com/
Vilmos
Anan(d) "Why can't the world have free trade and free investment with Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. Why can't Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have free trade and free investment with respect to each other?
Posted by: anan at March 17, 2010 8:57 am "
I don't know; why can't lambs convince lions to become vegetarians?
Posted by: semite5000 at March 18, 2010 9:34 pm
Posted by: anan at March 17, 2010 8:57 am "
I don't know; why can't lambs convince lions to become vegetarians?
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