February 16, 2010

Quote of the Day

Daytime Israel makes a tremendous effort to create the impression of the determined, tough, simple, uncomplicated society ready to fight back, ready to hit back twice as hard, courageous, and so on. Nocturnal Israel is a refugee camp with more nightmares per square mile I guess than any other place in the world. Almost everyone has seen the devil.

Amos Oz, author of A Tale of Love and Darkness.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 16, 2010 3:41 PM
Comments
Maybe this is an obvious observation, but this is not a current description of Israel. This harkens back to when most of the population was made up of holocaust survivors and refugees from muslim lands. Life is much better now in Israel, and more normalized.
Posted by: Mike at February 16, 2010 4:29 pm
Well, that is true in the most literal sense -- but also interesting is whether it is still true, or to what extent.

However normalized life in Israel has become (and to its credit, which is not, anymore, pointed out very often), I don't think the siege has ever truly been lifted. There are all kinds of nightmares.
Posted by: Phineas at February 16, 2010 8:31 pm
Clearly Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are the real refugee camps. Arabs living in tepees is just they're culture after all, am-I-right?
Posted by: Ombrageux at February 16, 2010 9:54 pm
Nobody's living in teepees.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 16, 2010 10:57 pm
Israel is transitioning in many ways. The founding generation, Holocaust survivors, refugees from Arab lands, kibbutzniks, has left power and retired or passed on (President Peres being the sole exception).

Their children, who grew up in a time of deprivation and constant existential worry while listening to tales of horror and escape from their parents (and having no grandparents, they didn't make it) are in power now, but struggling with being out of touch with their electorate.

The next generation watched the country build from a 3rd world country to a 1st world country in 30 years, fight wars where Israel was strong, and build an economic miracle in the Middle East. They struggle to understand neighbors who start seemingly senseless wars, fire missiles and attempt attacks that stop help and economic growth to their own people, and battle for "rights" without accepting any responsibilities.

They are tough but no longer simple, and their nightmares are the barbarians at the gates and what they may be forced to do to defend themselves.
Posted by: Akiva at February 16, 2010 11:37 pm
Profound and eloquent, Akiva.

Thank you.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 17, 2010 1:33 am
Skip Amos Oz (unless you need a cure for insomnia). Paul Blart, Mall Cop is a much better use of time
Posted by: Clement Fong at February 17, 2010 6:23 am
Israel's success is in large part the creation of Israeli Arabs; both Palestinian Israeli citizens and Arab Jewish Israeli citizens.

Israel's success is a reflection of Arab success.

Imagine how much more successful Israel would be if it treated its Palestinian brothers better. Imagine how much the Israelis would benefit from a prosperous successful Palestinian state--ideally a Palestinian state that retains a large Israeli/Palestinian dual citizen minority. Imagine how much more successful Israel would be if they allowed large numbers of Palestinians from the occupied territories and the diaspora to work, study and conduct business inside Israel.

Imagine how Israel would benefit if Israel reserved 40% of all college admissions to Palestinians (Israeli citizen, West Bank, Gaza, Diaspora); and offered all Palestinian graduates of Israeli universities the opportunity to become Israeli citizens or dual Palestinian/Israeli citizens.

Imagine how much Israel would benefit from treating its own Palestinian Israeli citizens better. Imagine how much better off Israel would be if Israel stopped blaming Palestinians for terrorism and instead acknowledged that terrorists are the shared enemy of both Israelis and Palestinians.
Posted by: anan at February 17, 2010 12:05 pm
anan...You are a dreamer who does not live in the real world. Why is it that with people that think like you, always somebody elses fault when losers lose???
Posted by: Gene at February 17, 2010 12:15 pm
I always found Amos Oz's work to have a touch of the poetic and elegance when it comes to language, but lacking in objectivity, realism and perspective.

This is one such quote, which today would not ring many bells in Israel. One of his best books is 'In the land of Israel', probably the most balanced and grounded account of his native land.

Despite what many outsiders think, Israelis do not lose sleep at night worrying about their neighbors or having eternal nightmares, this is piffle. Yes there are threats both internal and external, but this isnt some ominous black cloud hanging eternally over every Israeli's head.

On the contrary the country is full of enthusiasm, opportunity and very vibrant and fun-loving people of all stripes. I'm sure anyone who has ever visited and experienced Israel would agree.
Posted by: Mike R at February 17, 2010 12:35 pm
to Anan:

"Imagine how much better off Israel would be if Israel stopped blaming Palestinians for terrorism and instead acknowledged that terrorists are the shared enemy of both Israelis and Palestinians."

you can break into kumbaya at any point, because these are non-sequitur statements. The pressure to treat someone better or recognize someone as people is not on Israel, but on the Palestinians, who year after year refuse to recognize Israelis as people, to recognize the 5,000 year old Jewish history in that land and the importance of Jerusalem to the Jews.

It isn't Israel that is refusing a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians, who continue to indoctrinate their own children as shaheeds, refuse to build up their own society and instead employ all their energy to create rocket factories and suicide bombers. Your sincere pleas are misguided, perhaps you are preaching to the wrong crowd, Israel has over 30 pro-peace groups and millions who are willing to accept a Palestinian state tomorrow if only the Palestinians would cease terrorism and hate indoctrination of their own children.

Finally, the current Israeli Knesset has 13 Arab ministers. How many Jewish ministers (or non-Muslim) does the PA senate have? The sad fact is that Israeli Arabs have more rights and more opportunity in Israel than in any other Arab state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset
Posted by: Mike R at February 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Mike R,

His pleas aren't sincere.
Posted by: del at February 17, 2010 12:48 pm
His pleas aren't sincere.

Del, your reply to my post on an earlier thread was spot on, and I do believe you are right.

Malevolent, but not a simpleton, despite his simplistic dissimulation.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 17, 2010 1:39 pm
Glad Israel has 13 Arab ministers. I have read other articles implying that Israelis mistreat their Palestinian Israeli citizens; including with respect to permitting for construction.

"Israel has over 30 pro-peace groups and millions who are willing to accept a Palestinian state tomorrow." Israel's peace groups do her credit; but are enough of them willing to accept a state on terms the Palestinians find just? [Many Israelis are willing to do justice by the Palestinians; but they have never been able to elect a large minority to the Knesset.]

In Talba, 2001, Fatah offered to accept 100% Gaza, 97.6% of the West Bank, and territory swaps of equal quality in Israel proper. Israel refused the Palestinian peace offer. Clinton's final counter offer was 95.8% of the West Bank, 100% of Gaza, and smaller territory swaps of Israel proper.

The Palestinians also want the right to buy goods and services, especially water, at the same price Israelis pay. The right to export goods, services and labor freely to Israel. The right to do business in and work in Israel. Palestinians want Israelis to equitably share the revenues the Israeli government derives from water sales. The right to build a sea and air port in Gaza and the infrastructure to transport goods from that port to the rest of Israel.

Shouldn't the Palestinians as a sovereign country have the right to control their own sea coast and air corridors?

Why between 1967 and 2007 did Israel block Palestinian efforts to create quality security forces?

Shouldn't Palestinians have a right to compensation for all the Palestinian territory confiscated at below market prices by Israeli eminent domain laws [one agency that seized large quantities of Palestinian property was the "Israeli Land Administration."] inside the occupied territories and inside Israel proper?

Is it hard to understand how saddened Palestinians are that they were unable to return to their homes after fleeing in 1948; and at the same time Israelis encouraged preferred immigrants with "better" ethnic and religious backgrounds to move to Israel?

Remember that Palestine and Israel were one country for millenia. Less than 20% of Palestinians were Jewish in 1919, when the British mandate began. The Palestinians allowed Jewish immigrants to come to Palestine. Afterwords, some of these immigrants abused the native people's hospitality. Still Palestinian Israeli citizens (now 23% of the population versus over 80% in 1919) feel mistreated. They were saddened when after the 1948 war Israel didn't allow their family members who fled the war to return home. They feel saddened at the disgust many Israelis evince at the mention of giving work visas and university scholarships to Palestinians from the occupied territories and the diaspora. Palestinians could greatly contribute to Israeli success if the Israelis let them.

62 years have passed since 1948. Isn't it time for Israel to try to make right what was done in 1948 and 1967?

Some commentators on this blog imply that Israelis don't owe the Palestinians what I think the Israelis owe them. Try to understand; in 1948 the Palestinians wanted to live on with their Jewish brothers and sisters as a single people, single culture, and single nation. The Palestinians didn't want a divorce. Israel forced a divorce on the Palestinians; and took much of Palestine's inheritance in the process. Legally, Israel also owed Palestine alimony given how much Palestinians had contributed to Israeli success. Israel has refused to pay the alimony it owes Palestine for 62 years. Is this just? Is this consistent with Israeli values; or the code of conduct recommended by the holy Talmud?
Posted by: anan at February 17, 2010 6:11 pm
Yes Anan
Just imagine,
Imagine what it would be like if the Palestinians took responsibility for their own inactions and mistakes.
Imagine what it would be like if they and other Muslim-ruled countries would accept Israel as equals instead of untermenschen...
Imagine what it would be like if the Pali leadership thought that improved standards of living economic development and prosperity were more important than genocidal fanaticism.
Imagine if the Palis REALLY believed in a 2 state solution rather than one state, theocratic and under Muslim rule...
Imagine a parallel universe!!
Going back to the 30's every time the Palestinians had a chance at a state they said NO!! and they still are, because, Anan, they want the Jews out. They want no Israel, period.
There is no Arab version of Ben Gurion, or any other great leader willing to make compromises for the sake of peace and if the current crop is any example there never will be.
Such desires and attitudes come from within and will never be imposed by outside forces, so your SOL, Anan. and so are the Palestinians.
Too bad.
Oh well, like you they'll blame it on the Jews...or the cyclists!
Posted by: yesjb at February 17, 2010 6:12 pm
"Imagine if the Palis REALLY believed in a 2 state solution rather than one state, theocratic and under Muslim rule" About half of Palestinians want to nullify the 1948 divorce and remarry Israel. I would guess probably a majority of this half of Palestinians want a one person, one vote, free plural successful democracy.

Are there public opinion polls demonstrating Palestinian support for theocracy? I would like the see them. Hamas didn't run offering theocracy. And when they started being too theocratic, their popularity in the polls dropped substantially.

About half of Palestinians seek a two state solution on just and equitable terms.

Why do you think Palestinians (not non Palestinian arabs; only Palestinians) do not respect Israelis as equals?

"Imagine what it would be like if the Pali leadership thought that improved standards of living economic development and prosperity were more important than genocidal fanaticism." Isn't this already the case? Aren't Palestinian elections in large part about economic prosperity?

Why call them "Pali"? Is this term meant to be derogatory?
Posted by: anan at February 17, 2010 6:50 pm
Anand: Why do you think Palestinians (not non Palestinian arabs; only Palestinians) do not respect Israelis as equals?

It's because (most) Israelis aren't Arabs. If Israelis were Arabs and otherwise behaved exactly the same, this problem wouldn't even exist.

Arab countries treat Palestinians far worse than Israel does. Even a Hezbollah official, of all people, admitted that to me. Yet Palestinians are not at war with any of those other countries.

You ought to visit a Palestinian refugee camp some time and compare it to Ramallah and Bethlehem.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 17, 2010 7:07 pm
anan said, "The Palestinians also want the right to buy goods and services, especially water, at the same price Israelis pay. The right to export goods, services and labor freely __to__ Israel. The right to do business in and work __in__ Israel. Palestinians want Israelis to equitably share the revenues the Israeli government derives from water sales. The right to build...the infrastructure to transport goods from that port __to__ the rest of Israel.

Shouldn't the Palestinians as a sovereign country..."

A sovereign country does not have the RIGHT "to" do ANYTHING in another sovereign country. Israel does not have a right or permission to sell or do business with Lebanon, Syria, or Saudi Arabia. It's severely limited in doing business with Egypt and Jordan. That is the CHOICE of those countries, nothing illegal or inappropriate about it. They don't HAVE to do business with Israel if they don't want to.

So why should a sovereign state of Palestine have the RIGHT to do business with Israel??? They don't, and if Israel so chooses, they won't.

Similarly neither Israel nor, should it come to exist, a sovereign state of Palestine have the right to buy goods and services or freely export goods, services, and labor to the United States. The United States chooses to place controls or higher tariffs on any goods and services they so choose, and severely restrict the flow of labor from most of the world.

What you demand for a sovereign state of Palestine are things that don't exist for sovereign states. Oops.

Regarding water, a sovereign state of Palestine is welcome to do the same thing the sovereign state of Israel did...develop it's water resources, build a water servicing infrastructure, and then set whatever price it considers appropriate for that product. NOW, if it wishes to IMPORT water from a neighboring country, that will be at whatever negotiated price they come to. A sovereign state has no rights to the price advantages another sovereign state sets for it's citizens. Similarly, Israel gets to pay Egypt whatever price they negotiated and Egypt set for natural gas.

"Shouldn't Palestinians have a right to compensation for all the Palestinian territory confiscated at below market prices by Israeli eminent domain laws [one agency that seized large quantities of Palestinian property was the "Israeli Land Administration."] inside the occupied territories and inside Israel proper?"

War's a nasty business, people get displaced. Shouldn't Jews have a right to compensation for all the Jewish property in all the Arab lands that was confiscated or forced to be abandoned by the local populations and failures of those countries to protect their Jewish citizens rights?

BTW, an interesting side fact...the Jewish National Fund owns 30% of Syria, all the land from the Golan Heights to the border of Damascus and beyond. Should the Jewish National Fund be compensated for being unable to access that property and any use anyone in Syria makes of it?

Funny you should argue over 95% versus 98%. The Jews were faced with 40% versus 100% and took the 40% they could get...and see what (with G-d's blessings) they've done with it!
Posted by: Akiva at February 18, 2010 1:54 am
On Oz's comments: psychobabble. The last direct experience of the WWII horrors was, umm, 1945. This is, umm, 2010. Two generations +.

Anan -I use the term Pali in a perjoritive sense as I look at what the Pali's have accomplished in Gaza and the West Bank. If the Pali's would pull their collective head out of that dark, smelly place and join into the world of today, they could accomplish a great deal for "their people".
Posted by: Ron Snyder at February 18, 2010 4:11 am
Anand,
Thanks for the ahistorical fantastical nonsense.
I'm on my way out to hug a tree and sing Kumbaya.
Do you make this drivel up or does someone spoon-feed it to you like pablum.
Yes those poor Palestinians (Palis for short) just wanting to live in peace eith their Jewish spouses...just like in Hebron in 1929 or hundreds if not thousands of other times.
Face it Anand, your little fictitious pie in the sky scenario is built on lies, wishful thinking and propaganda.
The Palis are lead by self-serving corrupt tyrants and until they get some real leadership they will just self destruct.
Economic development as proposed by Netanyahu is the key and some Palestinians realize it but not enough and not right ones.
And time is running out.
As for "Palestine" being there for millenia...are you referring to the Roman province, or perhaps the Ottoman Empire (oops, no Palestine there!). Or perhaps you refer to the British Mandate of Palestine, including present day Jordan, guess not! Or perhaps you refer to what they call the west bank and Gaza formerly part of Jordan and Egypt (oops no Palestine there either!) In fact, Anand, those inhabitants were quite content to be Jordanians and Egyptians. No popular movement for a State between 1948-1967. Furthermore, many wanted to be part of Syria.
Make no mistake about it, Anand, if the Arabs had won in 48 there would definitely without question never have been a Palestine, just a division of the land between Egypt, Syria and Jordan. And the inhabitant would have been delighted...no Jews, just a lot of Muslims free to kill each other. Who cares what they call it.
If I want to see vacuous nonsense, Anand, I can always depend on you.
Posted by: jb at February 18, 2010 6:34 am
To Akiva: I agree with you 100% about the need to do right by Jews who lost land, property, and all other possessions while being ethnically cleansed by Arab nationalism from the lands of their birth. But anan (formerly known as anand) has been down this road before. He has stated in the past that Palestinians should be compensated and that Jewish refugees from Arab-majority countries, on the other hand, need to "forgive and forget." (BTW, that's a direct quote from anan.) So he has always maintained a double standard but has so far failed to muster the courage to acknowledge it.
Posted by: Harold at February 18, 2010 7:37 am
Anan

Is it hard to understand how saddened Palestinians are that they were unable to return to their homes after fleeing in 1948

So were all of the millions of Sudatenland Germans. They accepted that what was lost was unrecoverable and moved on with their lives.

In lots of places in the world, there are people who believe they have a legitimate axe to grind. What ultimately keeps them from going to war is the realization that, no matter how good it will feel to exact their revenge, it’s just not in their own self-interest.

Societies that place a high value on honor have a hard time ending wars. Societies that place a higher value on having a good life have an easier time of it.

The point is not to assign blame to this one or that. And it is not to compare the virtue of one side in a conflict to another. The point is merely to reflect on whether it really is worth it to persevere in the conflict.
Posted by: Toady at February 18, 2010 10:59 am
Anan(d) sez:

" About half of Palestinians want to nullify the 1948 divorce and remarry Israel. I would guess probably a majority of this half of Palestinians want a one person, one vote, free plural successful democracy.

Are there public opinion polls demonstrating Palestinian support for theocracy? I would like the see them. Hamas didn't run offering theocracy. And when they started being too theocratic, their popularity in the polls dropped substantially.

About half of Palestinians seek a two state solution on just and equitable terms.

Why do you think Palestinians (not non Palestinian arabs; only Palestinians) do not respect Israelis as equals? "


Our pals, the moderate "Palestinian Authority" TV, and the congregation of the Bourin Mosque in Nablus, sez:

"..Jews will always be Jews. Even if donkeys cease to bray, dogs cease to bark, wolves cease to howl, and snakes cease to bite, the Jews will not cease to be hostile to the Muslims.

The Prophet Muhammad said: "Whenever two Jews find themselves alone with a Muslim, they think of killing him." Oh Muslims, this land, these holy places, and these mosques will only be liberated when we return to the Book of Allah, and when all Muslims are prepared to become mujahideen for the sake of Allah, in support of Palestine, its people, its land, and its holy places.

The Prophet Muhammad said: "You will fight the Jews, and you will kill them, until the trees and the stones speak, saying: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah..." The trees and the stones will not say: "Oh Arab," or "Where are the millions [of Arabs]," or "Where are all the Arab people"... They will say: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him – except for the gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews." This land will only be liberated through Jihad.

Preacher: Oh Allah, take the Jews.

Crowd: Amen.

Preacher: Oh Allah, take the Jews.

Crowd: Amen.

Preacher: Oh Allah, take the Jews and their helpers.

Crowd: Amen."

http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2367.htm
Posted by: del at February 18, 2010 11:02 am
del, there are wacky preachers in the Arab world who do not reflect the views of most Palestinians. That preacher is a smuck. If he calls himself an Imam then he blasphemes all Islam.

Toady, there are many people around the world who are oppressed and who have had private property confiscated from them. This happened in both great British partitions (1947 in South Asia and 1948 in Palestine.) Obviously this is wrong.

However, shouldn't Israel hold itself to a higher standard than other oppressor nations? Why should Israel do something wrong if other countries misbehave? Isn't Israel better than that?

Yes the non Palestinian Arabs stole Jewish property. They also treat their Palestinian minorities like dirt. They are neither friends of Israel nor Palestine. Why should Palestinians be punished for the crimes of nonPalestinian Arabs? In what parallel universe does that make sense?

So absolutely the Israelis should forgive and forget with respect to the non Palestinian Arabs. Simultaneously Israel should do right by the Palestinians.

BTW, I would tell any Indian who has had property in Pakistan confiscated from them to forgive and forget. Ditto with any Caucasian whose property was stolen by Mugabe.

Didn't Joseph forgive the trespasses of his own 10 brothers--far worse trespasses than the non Palestinian Arabs committed to Israel? At the same time, didn't Joseph treat his brothers with love and respect? Aren't the Palestinians the children of Ishmael and therefore part of Israel's family?

JB, do Palestinians like when you call them "Palis"? Why don't you call them respectfully by their full name . . . why not call them Palestinians?

"just like in Hebron in 1929 or hundreds if not thousands of other times." What happened in Hebron was wrong. The "Palestinians people" didn't do it. A few crazy extremists did. Please don't blame all Palestinians for the crimes of a few.

"The Palis are lead by self-serving corrupt tyrants and until they get some real leadership they will just self destruct." Arafat was a moron, a moron that Israel, Clinton, the UN, Arab League, and the international community were complicit in imposing on Palestine in 1993. However, today the Palestinians have many good leaders; Mustafa Barghouti for one. The new NSF (national security forces) have some promising officers. Fayyed seems to be working hard to facilitate private sector growth in Palestine.

"if the Arabs had won in 48 there would definitely without question never have been a Palestine, just a division of the land between Egypt, Syria and Jordan." I agree. Then the Palestinians and Israelis would have been united in a freedom movement for a united Palestine . . . free from the oppressive neighbors.

"And the inhabitant would have been delighted...no Jews, just a lot of Muslims free to kill each other. Who cares what they call it." I disagree. So many Jews couldn't have moved to Palestine 1919 to 1948 if many Palestinians didn't accept Jewish immigration into their land. The Israelis owe the Palestinians.

BTW, the Iraqis were mistreated by their neighbors far worse than Israel ever was. The Iraqis most definitely do care about what their neighbors did to them . . . backing Saddam and his mass graves . . . supporting the mass murder of Iraqis, employees of the GoI and the ISF 2003-2008. Iraqis detest their neighbors for trying to mass murder Iraqis.

Israel isn't the only victim in the world. Many others have been oppressed far worse than Israel has (not just referring to the Iraqis.)
Posted by: anan at February 18, 2010 11:26 pm
del, there are wacky preachers in the Arab world who do not reflect the views of most Palestinians.

Anand, I have been watching and hoping that I would see Palestinians in large numbers denounce such hateful pronouncements coming out of their self-appointed (and sometimes elected!) representatives. I never have. I'm not sure on what basis you are claiming that such "views" are not representative of most Palestinians, but I'd like to see the evidence! And I'm not being sarcastic. I really would like to think there's some hope that there might be a majority of Palestinians who don't endorse such hateful and downright genocidal attitudes against Israeli Jews.
Posted by: Craig at February 19, 2010 12:02 am
"if the Arabs had won in 48 there would definitely without question never have been a Palestine, just a division of the land between Egypt, Syria and Jordan." I agree. Then the Palestinians and Israelis would have been united in a freedom movement for a united Palestine . . . free from the oppressive neighbors."
You are so naive, Anand
THERE WOULD BE NO PALESTINE, and no Palestininians. And no Jews in that area, and the inhabitants would be very happy. They wouldn't want a freedom movement and you can be sure of any Syrian reaction, or Jordanian or Egyptian to anyone even whispering anything about a Palestine
Check out some newspaper archives in arabic, English or French.

"I disagree. So many Jews couldn't have moved to Palestine 1919 to 1948 if many Palestinians didn't accept Jewish immigration into their land. The Israelis owe the Palestinians. "

Don't be a complete idiot!
So many Jews DIDN'T move to the British Mandate because they were stopped by the Brits and there deal with the Mufti and his collegues. Have you not heard of the White Papers? Didin't you know there were tight quotas for Jews entering the Mandate while Arab immigration from the surrounding countries was facilitated by the Brits? Instant Palestinians"!!
I'm finished with you anand, you just spout off ignorant, puerile simplistic BS, and are too lazy and biased to check out historical records, preferring instead a tidy wishful thinking.
Posted by: yesjb at February 19, 2010 4:05 am
Here we go with Anand's double standard all over again. Israelis need to forgive and forget, regardless of what Arabs do to Jews (e.g. driving them into the sea, and there's a term for that, Anand: genocide). But Palestinians shouldn't have to forgive and forget. On the contrary. The Palestinians, for their part, don't need to do anything but be compensated by Israel. Anand also claims that Indians who had land stolen from them by Pakistan should also forgive and forget. Same for whites whose property was stolen by Mugabe. Isn't it interesting that it's okay for some people to commit crimes, but not okay for others? See? Double standard. Hypocrisy. And once again, Anand doesn't have the guts to admit it.
Posted by: Harold at February 19, 2010 8:09 am
"many Jews DIDN'T move to the British Mandate because they were stopped by the Brits and there deal with the Mufti and his collegues . . . Didn't you know there were tight quotas for Jews entering the Mandate." Most countries around the world have quotas on immigration, including America. However, less than 20% of Palestinians were Jewish in 1919; a lot of Jews were permitted to move to Palestine. Many Palestinians accepted this.


"Have you not heard of the White Papers?" could you elaborate?

"while Arab immigration from the surrounding countries was facilitated by the Brits? Instant Palestinians"!!" Yes, there was nonJewish Arab immigration to Palestine too. Palestinians (muslim, christian, atheist and Jew) are a welcoming people. Immigration generally benefits the country which receives it.

Are there accurate estimates of immigration to Palestine by type 1919-1948? There were more Jewish immigrants than non Jewish Arab immigration, or the percentage of Jewish residents in Palestine wouldn't have risen so dramatically.
Posted by: anan at February 19, 2010 8:35 am
I'm finished with you anand, you just spout off ignorant, puerile simplistic BS

Happens every thread.

Never learns a thing.

The veneer is way too thin, 'anand'. Dissimulation this obvious is laughable.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 19, 2010 2:22 pm
Anan(d),

How are you qualified to state that preacher, "blasphemes Islam"? He quoted the gharqad tree line from a hadith, as I am sure you know. His statements are mainstream, devout, pious, Sunni Islam.
Posted by: del at February 19, 2010 8:00 pm
del, are you serious? Would you seriously like me to forward this passage to Sunni Imams and ask them for a theological explanation?

I could. So could MJT. But why should I? Why should he, or others that know Sunni Imams?

My explanation without seeking theological council would be that this was a passage meant to indicate a specific time and place. Mohammad meant this particular group of muslims at this particular moment at this location. This doesn't refer to Jews in general.

If I remember my Koran (which you should read del . . . if you want to discuss these issues), two specific Jewish tribes were allied with Mohammed. They betrayed the prophet at a critical moment. The prophet Mohammed was referring to these two specific tribes "WHEN" they betrayed him.

Del, most muslims aren't as radical as you seem to think. I could be wrong; but Palestinians strike me as more secular and less religious than many other muslims around the world.

Personally, I like religious muslims. :-)
Posted by: anan at February 19, 2010 10:55 pm
If I remember my Koran (which you should read del . . . if you want to discuss these issues), two specific Jewish tribes were allied with Mohammed. They betrayed the prophet at a critical moment.

Maybe you should look into the history of what actually happened at Medina before commenting on this, anand. And maybe then you'll decide not to comment on it. As there were no Muslims in Medina when they Prophet arrived there, and there were nothing but Muslims there when he was done. At least two Jewish tribes were driven out, and one was slaughtered - the women and children enslaved. Without getting into a theological discussion about what was done, I think we'd all agree that what happened at Medina teeters between ethnic cleansing and genocide.

The prophet Mohammed was referring to these two specific tribes "WHEN" they betrayed him.

I think the reference is to end-times prophecy.
Posted by: Craig at February 19, 2010 11:27 pm
By the way:

Would you seriously like me to forward this passage to Sunni Imams and ask them for a theological explanation?

I can't speak for Del, but as for me: Yes. Yes I would. I wasn't kidding when I asked for your evidence that a majority of Palestinians oppose such hateful rhetoric, either.
Posted by: Craig at February 19, 2010 11:29 pm
My explanation without seeking theological council would be that this was a passage meant to indicate a specific time and place.

Instead of seeking theological counsel, I sought Google. This is what I found:

“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985);

...

Mohammad meant this particular group of muslims at this particular moment at this location. This doesn't refer to Jews in general.

My interpretation of that hadith is that it calls upon all Muslims to kill all Jews. And that judgment day will not come until this has happened. What's your interpretation, anand?
Posted by: Craig at February 19, 2010 11:57 pm
Anand: "del, are you serious? Would you seriously like me to forward this passage to Sunni Imams and ask them for a theological explanation?
I could. So could MJT. But why should I? Why should he, or others that know Sunni Imams?"
Why should you NOT, Anand? You are always demanding evidence of us. Surely, the least you can do is to present evidence for your own arguments (it's called practicing what you preach). So show us the evidence, Anand. By all means, please don't withhold it.
Posted by: Harold at February 20, 2010 5:38 am
To clarify, before I ask these questions:

1) Should I only ask Sunni schools? Is anyone interested in Shiite or Sufi responses?

2) Please clarify exactly what Sunni Hadith and/or Koranic passages you have questions regarding.

I plan to ask about this section:

"“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985); ""

If anyone has any other section they would like to ask about, please specifically mention it. I would also appreciate a specific citation of where in the Hadith or Koran it comes from.

Note, I am discussing Sunni theology specifically; not "Arab nationalist" or "political" folks . . . who often have nothing to do with Islam.
Posted by: anan at February 20, 2010 10:34 am
Anand, go ahead and ask about that section (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985). Ask of both Sunni and Shiite authorities. Please include information on whom you go to for answers, i.e. their names, where they live and work, what and where they teach, etc. I would be interested in knowing.
Posted by: Harold at February 21, 2010 11:28 am
anan(d), as always you are a phony and a liar. You have repeatedly denied the Hamas call for the murder of Jews even when I linked to the specific and explicit passage in their charter. You repeatedly advocate for malevolent, annihilationist antisemitic terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranian mullahs. The reason of course is because you share their views.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at February 21, 2010 11:46 am
Gary Rosen, I think you are out of line. I've known anand for quite some time and I don't believe he "shares" the views of terrorist organizations, nor do I think he is lying when he claims they have "moderate" factions that can be reached out to. I think he's totally wrong, but that's a different issue. I'm fairly certain anand is at least as committed to defeating global terrorism as I am. We just have complete disconnect between how that might happen. To hear you tell it, anand is playing for the other team and I don't believe that at all.
Posted by: Craig at February 21, 2010 12:18 pm
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Winner, The 2008 Weblog Awards, Best Middle East or Africa Blog

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