February 9, 2010
Quote of the Day
For Assad and the Alawis, the Iraqi insurgency amounted to a debate over the nature of the Middle East. The Bush administration thought that the region was ripe for democracy and pluralism, and that its furies could be tamed by giving Middle Easterners a voice in their own government. Syria countered that the Middle East could only be governed through violence. Its support for the insurgency was, at least in part, intended to give Washington no choice but to put away dangerous ideas like Arab democracy…
This is what the Syrians, and the Iranians, did in Iraq—but the Americans were also at fault, and not just because we failed to provide enough security early on. We should have given more consideration, and even respect, to the theory the Arabs had about us. While Washington may have thought it was laboring to bring democracy to the region, the Arabs believed we were on a deliberate course to set them at each other's throats, with the goal of dividing and conquering. The sectarian warfare that Zarqawi was waging there was seen as just the first of many more conflagrations to come, conflagrations that the Arabs thought would be to our benefit, and of course to that of the Israelis.
Sometimes shows of power and diplomacy are, in fact, connected aspects of one player's coherent and comprehensive Middle East policy. But often what appears to be a grand strategy is just a fantasy that Arab analysts, journalists, and cafe society have projected onto the map of the region in order to pass time and keep the mind nimble, like a narrative version of backgammon. That was the case with the Arab interpretation of U.S. policy in Iraq. We didn't want to set the Sunnis and Shias against each other—we just wanted to take a few pieces off the table. But the Arabs find it impossible to believe that we do not understand the nature of the Middle East, and they therefore assume that our guile matches our power.
The assumption that democracy was all a plan to set the Arabs at each other's throats also made sense to many Arabs because it fit the way they see their own societies. For the Americans, democracy meant investing the Arab man, woman, and child with the rights due every human being. From the Arab nationalist perspective, empowering the Arab individual would necessarily come at the expense of the Arab nation. And weakening the unity of the nation would animate the sectarian monster that has stalked the region for a millennium.
Nowhere were these fears stronger than in Damascus. For the Syrian regime, democracy would mean an end to the domestic peace cultivated through coercion and repression since the founding of the modern Syrian state, and the unleashing of violence at unprecedentedly lethal levels. Majority rule, meanwhile, would obviously not only spell the demise of the Alawi regime but also threaten the very existence of the Alawi community. As they watched what was happening in Lebanon and Iraq, it was easy for the Arabs to conclude that if representative government meant brother slaughtering brother, then the Americans could keep their precious democracy to themselves.
Hatred of America's freedoms, the Bush White House liked to say, is why jihadis commit acts of terror against the United States. The Syrian regime reminded the Arab mainstream that it wasn't American freedoms they hated, but their own. The Arabs feared each other.
From The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations by Lee Smith.
Although, obviously, having such a voice in their own government did not extend to having a say in whether foreigners can fight a war their region. (Or, for that matter, guaranteeing "European democracy" by dragging them into war despite the opposition of the public.)
We need to stop with caricatures about what "the Arabs" think. Any suspicion of foreigners (former Soviet, European, American) is not some strange, quaint psychological disorder to be explained. It is a mentality bitterly acquired after decades of toxic relationships and betrayals.
Long term people think in terms of their personal economics, so if Iraq does succeed both politically and economically, it will have enormous influence on the have-nots of the region.
Sect and tribe are the units of political organization. No Arab state in the world is an Islamic theocracy, unless you consider Gaza a state.
It's all about sects in the countries we're talking abou there. Syria is governed by atheist non-Muslim Alawites. Half of Lebanon's parliament is Christian, and the Sunnis and Shias are at each others' throats just as they are in Iraq, only not quite as violently.
Maybe I should restate. Lewis's point is that with Islam politics is inseparable from religion. I think he says something like this (I'm quoting from memory) that there is a general notion that Islam cannot survive without a political empire, and the creation of a political empire is driven by Islam. Of course we haven't seen an Islamic empire for centuries, but from arms length it still seems that this concept still grabs the imagination of many in the Middle East.
Lewis's point doesn't seem to exclude the issue of tribalism and sectarian violence, but it does point out the risks of nation building and overthrowing repressive regimes which can rekindle dreams of the Caliphate. Stranger things have happened in history.
"But the Arabs find it impossible to believe that we do not understand the nature of the Middle East, and they therefore assume that our guile matches our power."
This is an interesting observation, but I would expand it. I've seen the same in conversations with folks in Central America and elsewhere. It fuels the myth of American omnipotence.
I haven't read Smith's book. Where does he go with this? Does he assert that our policies in Iraq will ultimately fail?
Read the book, it's terrific.
He doesn't say our policies in Iraq will ultimately fail, but there are real limits to how much we can accomplish in that part of the world.
And we can't accomplish much of anything if we don't understand how it works.
There is documentation on one Syrian army colonel who helped kidnap a Bishop in Mosul in March, 2008. Are there other examples that people here are aware of?
Is the best source to call the cell phones of top NiOC, 2nd IAD and 3rd IAD officers and asking them?
Many non Iraqi Sunni Arabs still deny that the Iraqi Sunni Arab militias had foreign embedded combat advisors, foreign training, foreign logistics, foreign equipping, funding and organization.
To change the topic, I am looking for evidence that Hamas fighters didn't abide by the rules of war in early 2009.
The Goldstone report doesn't find evidence of this; however, the author of the report said he wouldn't be surprised if Gazans might not reveal Hamas activities to researchers.
Goldstone documents 36 specific cases of IDF misconduct. Is there an incident by incident detailed response to this?
Whatever the truth is, it appears that Israel took far greater risks of civilian deaths during the Gaza war than the international forces did in Afghanistan or Iraq. The IDF was too risk averse; and often bombed when they should have used ground troops to limit civilian casualties.
There is also evidence that IDF plain clothes personal participated in the Gaza war; which is illegal according to the Geneva Conventions.
Is there evidence that Hamas similarly violated the Geneva conventions by using troops out of uniform?
However, the Goldstone report was unable to document cases of Hamas using human shields. {Hamas fighters hiding in buildings they knew civilians were at.} Golstone was also unable to document Hamas intimidation (with the caveat that they couldn't prove that it didn't happen either) against Gazans. Don't know if Goldstone was able to document cases of Hamas fighters fighting in plain clothes.
This is why I am asking for documentation regarding Hamas violating international law in any of these ways.
BTW, someone in a previous thread argued that the Goldstone report should be discounted as inaccurate. I don't agree with this. You could argue that the Goldstone report was incomplete and insufficiently comprehensive. I would think the authors would agree with this characterization of their report.
But that doesn't mean that the specific 36 cases the Goldstone report documents about the IDF are inaccurate.
If some of the 36 cases that Goldstone documents are inaccurate, please provide additional documentation and make your case.
Speaking of which, did you ever get to read "Punishment of Virtue" by Sarah Chayes? It's getting a little dated but it is a very good read of the first couple of years in Afghanistan post 9/11. Sarah was literally in Khandihar with the Taliban before the U.S. troops arrived. Amazing story.
Some resources on the Goldstone Report...
http://www.goldstonereport.org/ <== kind of a rough website but features a lot of commentary on it.
There have been huge numbers of articles and blog posts thoroughly showing procedural flaws. For example, here is Alan Dershowitz 49-page response, (pdf form) http://bit.ly/9PfzMc
Doing a search for Goldstone Report on Elder of Ziyon's blog will come up with numerous sourced posts. Here is a link to ease your effort: http://bit.ly/b9rRJV
Also, here is a link to part 1 of Richard Landes discussion of the Goldstone Report in the MERIA Journal: http://bit.ly/aSLRG9 A link to part 2 can be found within.
For good measure, here is a (pdf) link to the report Israel released outlining the investigation into Goldstone's accusations: http://bit.ly/aj7u16
Also here is Israel's official report on the legal aspects of Cast Lead, that came out long before the Goldstone Report: http://bit.ly/Wg1Vd
The Goldstone Report itself is an intellectual travesty. The logic it uses is flawed... when it comes to Israel, they jump to conclusions on mere accusations or unverifiable testimonies. When it has to do with Hamas, they consistently claim they cannot confirm wrongdoing. They misquote sources, for example, there was one incident where they claimed 40,000 workers lost their job because of a bombing, when the report they cite says 4,000. If you are REALLY interested in understanding why it is flawed, follow the links I have posted and read through the material, follow their sources, and you will see why the Goldstone Report cannot be trusted.
Anan -- there are SERIOUS flaws with the Goldstone Report.
If you are really interested, google "Alan Dershowitz Case Against Goldstone pdf" and read that. Then google "Richard Landes Goldstone GLORIA" and read his two part report on it's flaws. Then go to goldstonereport.org/ and read through the posting there -- it is a very roughly put together site, but it has a lot of info. Then, if still not satisfied, google "Elder of Ziyon: Goldstone" and click "see more from this site" on the first entry... there are literally hundreds of posts on that blog.
The Goldstone factually reports that they don't find evidence of specific allegations against Hamas. That doesn't mean that the allegations are not true; but merely that they didn't find evidence that they were true during their short investigation. More research is needed.
The Goldstone report referred to Hamas rocket attacks against Israel as possible crimes against humanity. The report also condemned Hamas mistreatment of Fatah supporters in Gaza.
Therefore, the Goldstone report hardly gave Hamas a pass.
One question I have is how much combat experience the four authors of the Goldstone report had.
Another question is if Hamas fighters fought in civilian clothing? Not sure how the Goldstone report discusses this issue.
The Goldstone report does condemn Israel for having civilian clothes wearing combatants in Gaza, which it describes as illegal.
That phrase "the fog of war" comes to mind.
I don't see one awaiting moderation, so if you don't already see it in the comments section, it went into the bit bucket.
Anan -- I'm aware that Goldstone said they "couldn't find evidence" of some things like weapons in mosques, and so they didn't pass any judgement... my point is that they couldn't find evidence of many of the accusations they gave against Israel and still DID pass judgement. Please read through some of the links I posted. There are numerous issues with a variety of the 36 cases that were published in the Goldstone Report.
Two particular examples I can think of off the top of my head: there are major flaws in the reporting on the el Badr Flour Mill bombing, as well as with much of the testimony regarding the Abd Rabbo family and their deaths.
Most of the incidents have been debunked, or at least enough questions have been cast on the Goldstone report's version to make it unreliable.
I don't want to continue this here, but again... if you are really interested in seeing the arguments and not just starting a comment war, look through the links I posted and follow more links from there.
It really is quite disturbing and really negates the veracity, reliability and accuracy of the Goldstone report.
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=47192
One more thing, Anan, you keep repeating the bit about plain-clothes Israeli's fighting in Gaza. In fact its a bit like a mantra but if all you have is the Goldstone Report as apposed to verifiable evidence, then you're SOL.
JB
As his opening paragraph states: "[Someone] mention one horrible crime, say the massacre in Jenin, and you point out that it was an invention, a blood libel disproven a hundred times over. They mention another — say, the Mohammad al-Dura affair — and again you refute the point. At a certain point they say something like, 'Well, it’s not the specific examples that matter, it’s the general point that counts.'"
Countless accusations against Israel have been refuted, and found entirely baseless. Yet the same accusations are made so frequently, that people come to believe that there is a basis for them.
The article also mentions the Goldstone Report if you are interested in seeing a couple specific points.
Flinging countless unproven accusations is cheap and easy -- proving they are fabrications is not so easy and requires meticulous work. That is one of the fundamental problems in this war of words.
My thoughts are with the Iranian people. Godspeed.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
You wanted documentation, you got it, anan(d).
That wouldn't be a violation of the Geneva or Hagues convention, since HAMAS operates as an informal militia and not as a uniformed military organization.
However, there seem to be quite a few eyewitness accounts of HAMAS torturing "informants" to death, which constitutes two of the "big three" of war crimes in and of itself. Those being murder and torture. And while everyone is busy not noticing that, they can continue to not notice the hundreds of terrorist attacks that HAMAS's current leadership has proudly taken credit for committing in the past, including suicide bombing of the elderly at a rest home, suicide bombing women and children at restaurants and schools, and so on.
Anand, you should be asking why the leadership of Hamas has not been indicted for crimes against humanity for what they have already admitted to on the record. Until that happens, any criticism of Israel just comes across as farce.
I believe there is still a requirement for such militias to identify themselves as combatants as to distinguish themselves from the civilian population. That can be something as simple as a distinctive arm band or head band.
They are still required to distinguish themselves visibly from non-combatants.
Craig, very interesting. Was Hamas the governing authority of Gaza? Under international law, if it isn't Hamas, than who is it?
If Hamas is the legal governing authority of Gaza, does Hamas still have the legal ability to field militias in civilian clothing?
"there seem to be quite a few eyewitness accounts of HAMAS torturing "informants" to death, which constitutes two of the "big three" of war crimes in and of itself. Those being murder and torture."
Any documentation of this "DURING" the Gaza war?
Hamas has engaged in terrorism in the past. But many years ago, Hamas agreed to abide by a Hundna that bans terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. Has Hamas violated the Hudna? {Referring to terrorism, not rocket attacks.}
Is there any documentation that Hamas fighters hid in civilian accommodations where they knew other civilians were present? (Human Shields)
jooliz, there are many false accusations against all sides. I don't doubt that many accusations against Israel are false. But at the same time, I think several of the accusations against the IDF are not without merit. The IDF is too risk averse and takes more risks with civilian casualties than other militaries do in comparable operations (MNF/ISF in Iraq, ISAF/ANSF in Afghanistan, UN troops in Haiti, UN troops in Congo, international forces in Kosovo, Indian troops in Kashmir, to take a few examples) The Israelis do not couple their offensive operations with national building and reconstruction in the way other countries do.
There is also how Israelis protect Israelis far more than Palestinians; as if the Palestinians were inferior. How to Palestinians like hearing about the "Arab mind," "primitive civilization," "Arabs aren't ready for peace yet" etc.?
Many Gazans don't understand why Israel imposes trade sanctions against Gaza. They don't understand the restrictions on Gazans commuting to work inside Israel or getting work visas to move to Israel. Or why Gazans pay higher prices for comparable goods and services compared to Israelis. For example, why do Palestinians in some cases pay more for water than Israeli farmers; or more for electricity? Why is Israel not sharing the revenue from water sales with the Palestinian government?
Palestinians have many reasons to be suspicious of Israelis.
That is the point that David Hazony was trying to make. Despite the fact that all of the serious accusations have been shown to be false, there is an underlying sense of "okay, well that wasn't true, but there are just SOOO many accusations that SOMETHING must be true!"
This mentality is exactly what Hamas and Hizballah's propagandists are going for, and it is precisely the reason that Israel is so wary of things like the Goldstone Report which lend the (false) legitimacy of the UN to these claims.
As for your other comments: Israel has in the past taken actions to protect their enemies FAR more than their own soldiers. They get condemned for committing massacres regardless (case in point: Jenin). If they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't" they may as well take care of their own.
That being said, if you follow any of the links I posted and actually poke around, you will see that despite the lessons learned in Jenin, the IDF still do MORE than any other force to prevent civilian casualties.
As for the "national building and reconstruction" efforts that you mention... are you kidding me? It shows that you really do not understand the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict at ALL. Not only would the Palestinians never agree to have the Israeli's help them build an infrastructure, they would use it as further evidence of "occupation" and zionist plots to co-opt "their" land for some nefarious purposes.
These (and countless others) are the arguments of a malevolent simpleton,
and are the reason why I take nothing Anand says seriously.
Too bad you seem incapable of explaining to these Gazans that they elected a genocidal Islamist terror gang for a government, which promised a holy war against the Jews and delivered on that promise.
Anand - where, where is the gaping disconnect in your brain?
I believe there is still a requirement for such militias to identify themselves as combatants as to distinguish themselves from the civilian population. That can be something as simple as a distinctive arm band or head band.
I think there was an attempt to put such language in the Hague Conventions at some point in the past but I'm pretty sure it was removed as it was seen as un-necessary and an open to being grossly exploited by colonial powers against local insurgencies. If militia members did identify themselves visibly it was easy to pick them up and incarcerate them and if they didn't they could be executed for espionage. I'm sure you can see how that's un-workable, as nice as it would be to have the enemy easy to pick out of a crowd :)
Anand,
Craig, very interesting. Was Hamas the governing authority of Gaza? Under international law, if it isn't Hamas, than who is it?
I don't pay much attention to who is "legal governing authority" in Palestinian territories, anand. There isn't a sovereign Palestinian state, so there isn't much precedent... means, everyone tells a different version of the legal status of various entities. Hamas is a terrorist organization first and foremost, so even if they were sovereign it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to their legitimacy.
If Hamas is the legal governing authority of Gaza, does Hamas still have the legal ability to field militias in civilian clothing?
Of course they would. You realize here in the US our Revolutionary War was fought largely by militiamen wearing whatever clothes they were most comfortable in, right? :)
I can name quite a few countries that sponsor informal and un-uniformed militias, and not all of them are "developing" nations. Russia, for one. And I believe here in the US the Federal Government has the constitutional authority to do institute informal militias from amongst the citizenry if it ever became necessary (so far it hasn't).
Any documentation of this "DURING" the Gaza war?
Other than journalists? I assume the eyewitnesses who spoke with those journalists are still around, somewhere. Would they be willing to testify? I bet some of them would, if they weer offered sufficient guarantees.
Hamas has engaged in terrorism in the past. But many years ago, Hamas agreed to abide by a Hundna that bans terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
I couldn't care less about some voluntary agreement Hamas leadership puts forward for their own benefit, anand. War crimes and crimes against humanity were committed. There is no statute of limitations. The perps should be brought to justice. It's long past time to punish terrorists for what they do, using some method besides killing them on the battlefield. We know what was done, and we know who was involved, and we know where to find them. Why aren't they behind bars awaiting trial? Just because they are Palestinians? Well, fine. But if we don't punish Palestinians for egregious and obvious violations then it's absurd to go after Israel based on dubious charges.
Has Hamas violated the Hudna? {Referring to terrorism, not rocket attacks.}
I already said I don't give a damn about a Hudna. The penalty for serious war crimes and crimes against humanity is death or life imprisonment. Not an "agreement".
Is there any documentation that Hamas fighters hid in civilian accommodations where they knew other civilians were present? (Human Shields)
That's a dubious charge such as the charges being made against Israel. There's no reason to pursue such a complex and difficult to substantiate case. It just serves as a distraction. The leadership of Hamas doesn't even try to deny their sponsorship of horrendous and serious war crimes. Why aren't they facing those charges?
What a motherfucking crock of bullshit, anan(d). You aren't going to research anything. Take out of context? I linked to the whole fucking Hamas charter which they have never denied. You didn't even read the link you liar. You will do anything to make excuses for the most deranged antisemites who vow to annihilate the Jews, who brag about their possession of Jewish "body parts" and bomb Jews in South America (Hezbollah) and promote Holocaust denial (the bloody thugs who run Iran). You aren't fooling anyone you POS.
Gary - the perpetual malevolent simpleton is a poster child for the willfully ignorant. Paul is right - it's not worth arguing with him. I'm signing off to direct my energies towards arranging my oldest child's first summer in Israel. Another generation of Ahavat Yisrael will roll past his bigotry of fools.
Simpleton? No.
You're sounding more and more like Robert Fisk, and believe me, that's no compliment!
I'm not going to waste my energy refuting your points. The nonsense inherent within them is only too obvious to almost everyone else.
But just a note: Yes the IDF is risk averse and so is most every other army. Whereas some military groups are happy to die to obtain their fantastical version of the afterlife, the IDF has shown time and time again that its risk aversion also extends more than any other army, and certainly in any asymmetrical warfare, to preserve and protect civilians.
Secondly, your invidious comment about the Israelis:
"There is also how Israelis protect Israelis far more than Palestinians; as if the Palestinians were inferior"
is stupid and insulting!
The role of any government is to protect its citizens not because anyone is inferior but because they are dangerous and to not a small degree murderous and genocidal. It seems that even that basic fact is too elusive for your comprehension.
C'est tous!
Your other points are too ridiculous to even mention.
Simpleton? No.
Del - humor me and tell me why anyone other than a simple fool would post things like this:
"There is also how Israelis protect Israelis far more than Palestinians; as if the Palestinians were inferior"
on a website like MJT's? This ain't no Huffpost or Daily Kos; nobody with even a dim awareness of how the world works would see this as anything more than under-baked dissimulation. So, I call (malevolent) simpleton.
1. Take blood pressure.
2. Have debate.
3.Take blood pressure again.
4. Note what has changed.
Ok, fwiw. It seems to me that anan(d)'s aims are to spread propaganda to those unable to see his dissimulation, and to spread frustration to those that are able to see it. He enjoys, to use an American idiom, "yanking people's chains". His obsession with the "palestinians", support for hamas, and his repeated thread-jacking has also made it clear to me that he is not what he has claimed himself to be: an American Hindu of Indian (south-Asian) descent. He is nearly uninterested in India, and little interested in Pakistan.
Anyway, about the topic at hand: Lee Smith makes many insightful points, but, imho, he overemphasizes "Arab nationalism", which basically did not exist until the 20th century, while avoiding a certain other ideology, the one which must not be named lest one be a "(mustnotbenamed)phobe". Arab nationalism, which was partly a reaction to European nationalisms and Zionism, developed among a western-aware elite and was often promoted by Arabic speaking Christians and minorities (e.g. Alawis) as a way out of their inferior status as non-(mustnotbenamed)s. Latterly it has become entwined with and subsidiary to the Arab imperial ideology, (mustnotbenamed).





