February 23, 2010
More Like This Please
I can understand why Dubai authorities aren’t happy about the killing of Hamas senior military commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, presumably by Israeli Mossad agents, in one of the city-state’s hotel rooms last month. More than most countries in the Middle East, the United Arab Emirates has stayed out of the Arab-Israeli conflict and would rather it not wash up on the beach.
Even as European Union officials perfunctorily squawk about the use of forged passports by the assassins, few others have grounds to complain. Al-Mabhouh was a terrorist commander on a mission to acquire Iranian weapons for use against civilians. He was a combatant. Unlike his victims, he was fair game. He would have been fair game for even an air strike if he were in Gaza. As he was, instead, in Dubai, he was taken out quietly without even alerting, let alone harming, any of the civilians around him.
If only Israel could fight all its battles this way. It would be the cleanest and least-deadly war in the history of warfare. Even some of Israel’s harshest critics should understand that.
“The Goldstone Report,” Alan Dershowitz wrote in the Jerusalem Post, “suggests that Israel cannot lawfully fight Hamas rockets by wholesale air attacks. Richard Goldstone, in his interviews, has suggested that Israel should protect itself from these unlawful attacks by more proportionate measures, such as commando raids and targeted killing of terrorists engaged in the firing of rockets. Well, there could be no better example of a proportionate and focused attack on a combatant deeply involved in the rocket attacks on Israel than the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.”
Hamas and Hezbollah use civilians as human shields. Hezbollah uses an entire country as a vast human shield. Some critics, for various reasons, are more interested in lambasting Israel than the terrorist organizations it’s fighting. That’s easy when you live in New York or Brussels. People in the Middle East have to live with (or die because of) what happens. How Middle Easterners fight wars isn’t political or academic to me. I’ve never been inside Gaza, but I once lived in Lebanon, I travel there regularly, and there’s a real chance I’ll be there when the next war pops off. I’d rather not be used as a human shield if that’s OK with those who give Hamas and Hezbollah a pass. And I’d much rather read about Hezbollah leaders getting whacked by mysterious assassins with forged passports than dive into a Beirut bomb shelter during Israeli air raids.
Read the rest in Commentary Magazine.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 23, 2010 10:20 AM
Comments
i will not comment!
Posted by: Akram Tanios Sabra at February 23, 2010 12:31 pm
Assassinations, extrajudicial killings, or whatever we want to call it are illegal under International law, or does that no longer matter?
Posted by: Craig Smith at February 23, 2010 1:27 pm
i will not comment!
I will.
Well said, Michael.
I hope we see more such accounts closed.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 23, 2010 2:01 pm
I will.
Well said, Michael.
I hope we see more such accounts closed.
Craig, that's complete and utter bullshit. Mabhouh was a terrorist and a combatant. Killing such people is not and never has been illegal. We do it ourselves every day.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 23, 2010 2:04 pm
Suicide bombings and rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are also illegal under "international law", but I've never seen your kind ever get worked up about that.
Posted by: Big Mamzer at February 23, 2010 2:08 pm
That last comment was in response to Craig Smith's comment.
Posted by: Big Mamzer at February 23, 2010 2:09 pm
Assassinations, extrajudicial killings, or whatever we want to call it are illegal under International law, or does that no longer matter?
Come back when you lift a finger to protect the innocent from monsters like Mabhouh. Until then go shove it.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 23, 2010 2:13 pm
Come back when you lift a finger to protect the innocent from monsters like Mabhouh. Until then go shove it.
Assassinations, extrajudicial killings, or whatever we want to call it are illegal under International law"
Gee, Craig Smith, that's what Hamas and Hezb'allah say too, not to mention all those wonderful elected leaders of Syria and Iran.
International law (so-called) is just the haven of the scoundrels. Just a way to batter Israel, and just a way to turn black into white and vise-versa.
The biggest proponents are the biggest abusers who always get a high five from their like-minded allies and the UN.
This guy was the dregs of humanity a killer and a terrorist who was planning on enabling rocket attacks against cities, not armies, mind you but cities!
Or does that not matter any more?
His death was just and you can quibble about the method all you want.
Posted by: yesjb at February 23, 2010 3:19 pm
Gee, Craig Smith, that's what Hamas and Hezb'allah say too, not to mention all those wonderful elected leaders of Syria and Iran.
International law (so-called) is just the haven of the scoundrels. Just a way to batter Israel, and just a way to turn black into white and vise-versa.
The biggest proponents are the biggest abusers who always get a high five from their like-minded allies and the UN.
This guy was the dregs of humanity a killer and a terrorist who was planning on enabling rocket attacks against cities, not armies, mind you but cities!
Or does that not matter any more?
His death was just and you can quibble about the method all you want.
I agree, well stated Michael.
Posted by: Ron Snyder at February 23, 2010 3:36 pm
I agree, we need a lot more of this tactic. Hopefully the next batch will be more than one, and coordinated.
Hamas and all of their supporters (some of whom likely live in Dubai) really look foolish here. Why didn't Mabhouh have a bodyguard? Hamas couldn't afford the plane fare? Dubai is out of petty cash?
Apparently he often travelled to Dubai alone. Then there's the fact that Mabhouh was able to get into the country while the average Israeli doctor/humanitarian would be turned away at the border.
Dubai let all this happen under their noses, and it took them weeks to figure out what was going on. They still haven't figured out the cause of death. All they can do is cry to the international community for help.
England is making a huge fuss because they're basically colonized by the Gulf Arab states. They don't want to upset their bosses. Europe wants their share of "Islamic Banking" cash, so they're making a lot of noise too. Which is ironic, because the Gulf's inability to deal with the situation shows how poor and weak they've become. Europe is knocking itself out to grab money that (given the circumstances of this assassination) is obviously fast-dwindling.
To drive the point home the next assassination should take place in the empty, rotting shell of the Burj Dubai skyscraper. But even the most impoverished gun runner won't stay there...
Posted by: Mary Madigan at February 23, 2010 3:47 pm
Hamas and all of their supporters (some of whom likely live in Dubai) really look foolish here. Why didn't Mabhouh have a bodyguard? Hamas couldn't afford the plane fare? Dubai is out of petty cash?
Apparently he often travelled to Dubai alone. Then there's the fact that Mabhouh was able to get into the country while the average Israeli doctor/humanitarian would be turned away at the border.
Dubai let all this happen under their noses, and it took them weeks to figure out what was going on. They still haven't figured out the cause of death. All they can do is cry to the international community for help.
England is making a huge fuss because they're basically colonized by the Gulf Arab states. They don't want to upset their bosses. Europe wants their share of "Islamic Banking" cash, so they're making a lot of noise too. Which is ironic, because the Gulf's inability to deal with the situation shows how poor and weak they've become. Europe is knocking itself out to grab money that (given the circumstances of this assassination) is obviously fast-dwindling.
To drive the point home the next assassination should take place in the empty, rotting shell of the Burj Dubai skyscraper. But even the most impoverished gun runner won't stay there...
To everyone who is taking up Craig Smith on his "against international law" argument: Please don't play that game. You are just bolstering his argument. Killing enemy combatants is NOT illegal, no matter the method used, and it never has been. The moratorium against assassination was never intended to be applied to combatants in a war and it's absurd to try to make such a claim. It's unfortunate that Israel has to conduct such operations in allegedly "neutral" countries, but why doesn't anyone ask Dubai why they were allowing a well-known terrorist and war criminal to stay in one of their 5 star hotels, while engaged in hostile activity against the state of Israel?
Posted by: Craig at February 23, 2010 6:01 pm
Exactly right, Craig!
I also smell an Iranian turd in all of this.
I think Dubai would prefer to keep this all quiet and let it blow over. But the Iranians see a golden opportunity to vilify Israel and the Jews once again and are stirring the coals. and BTW, just to digress ever so slightly, their pronouncements are right out of the Mein Kampf playbook.
Why do I get a feeling of deja vu here?
Posted by: yesjb at February 23, 2010 7:28 pm
I also smell an Iranian turd in all of this.
I think Dubai would prefer to keep this all quiet and let it blow over. But the Iranians see a golden opportunity to vilify Israel and the Jews once again and are stirring the coals. and BTW, just to digress ever so slightly, their pronouncements are right out of the Mein Kampf playbook.
Why do I get a feeling of deja vu here?
Sorry, that last post was ambiguous.
the phrase "to vilify Israel and the Jews once again and are stirring the coals."
should have said: " to vilify Israel and the Jews, and they (the Iranians) are once again stirring the coals."
Posted by: yesjb at February 23, 2010 8:59 pm
the phrase "to vilify Israel and the Jews once again and are stirring the coals."
should have said: " to vilify Israel and the Jews, and they (the Iranians) are once again stirring the coals."
Killing of such targets is not new. It has been an Israeli policy since the 70s. Whether good, bad, ethical or not is not important.
Unfortunately it is useless as it was never able to save lives, reduce violence nor alter policies.
In the ME, where I live, you get to realize that those Hamas and Hizbullah thugs do not operate as individuals. It is a certain 'cause' that drives them even if it means sacrificing civilians, Mabhouhs or even your own children.
Too bad for Israel.
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 23, 2010 10:40 pm
Unfortunately it is useless as it was never able to save lives, reduce violence nor alter policies.
In the ME, where I live, you get to realize that those Hamas and Hizbullah thugs do not operate as individuals. It is a certain 'cause' that drives them even if it means sacrificing civilians, Mabhouhs or even your own children.
Too bad for Israel.
I think Kazamaza is proud of Hamas and Hezbolla.
Monster.
Posted by: Josh Scholar at February 23, 2010 11:23 pm
Monster.
I don't think so, Josh. He called them thugs.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 23, 2010 11:32 pm
Some may find this of interest
But since it rather contradicts "the narrative" (AKA, "the truth"), by all means, feel free not to....
Posted by: Barry Meislin at February 24, 2010 1:54 am
But since it rather contradicts "the narrative" (AKA, "the truth"), by all means, feel free not to....
While this may be legal, it is not moral and no amount of posturing will make it so. It is too much like the pot calling the kettle black when they're both still on the stove. Of course, selective memory and double standards will always be with us.
As a US taxpayer, I feel that I help Israel with real money far more than any other Middle Eastern country with the exception of Egypt.
And while Michael (and others) want "more of this, please" it doesn't seem as though "this" has produced the desired result. In fact, I would say that "this" has succeeded in politicizing the Arab population generally and the Palestinian population specifically. And then there is the rest of the world.
So, while this seems really smart - I think it was really dumb. Having the pictures of these operatives on television and the Internet can't be good not to mention the specifics of the operation. This type of activity should be relegated to the past.
Posted by: Amaliada at February 24, 2010 3:06 am
As a US taxpayer, I feel that I help Israel with real money far more than any other Middle Eastern country with the exception of Egypt.
And while Michael (and others) want "more of this, please" it doesn't seem as though "this" has produced the desired result. In fact, I would say that "this" has succeeded in politicizing the Arab population generally and the Palestinian population specifically. And then there is the rest of the world.
So, while this seems really smart - I think it was really dumb. Having the pictures of these operatives on television and the Internet can't be good not to mention the specifics of the operation. This type of activity should be relegated to the past.
Not proud at all Josh. I wish there was a way to get rid of them. I was just stating the facts.
These facts however make the ME region a very difficult place to exist in for non-Muslim fanatics (be it Christians like me, Israel as a country and even for regular open-minded Muslims).
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 24, 2010 3:53 am
These facts however make the ME region a very difficult place to exist in for non-Muslim fanatics (be it Christians like me, Israel as a country and even for regular open-minded Muslims).
Killing of such targets is not new. It has been an Israeli policy since the 70s. Whether good, bad, ethical or not is not important.
Unfortunately it is useless as it was never able to save lives, reduce violence nor alter policies.
And you know this because you can prove that not fighting back is more effective at protecting Israeli lives? I call bullshit.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 24, 2010 4:04 am
Unfortunately it is useless as it was never able to save lives, reduce violence nor alter policies.
And you know this because you can prove that not fighting back is more effective at protecting Israeli lives? I call bullshit.
Josh ≠ Scholar
Posted by: Edgar at February 24, 2010 4:05 am
≠
Posted by: Edgar at February 24, 2010 4:06 am
I respect your point of view Li'l Mamzer, but you do not have a proof either that it does protect Israeli lives (other than the mainstream government propaganda claim).
What I stated is a proven fact that has unfortunately prevailed for 40 years. I wish I had an alternative!
I guess an alternative would be to target the source (Iran) and not the puppets (Hamas and Hizbullah). I have always said that President Bush attacked the wrong country.
Cheers.
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 24, 2010 4:17 am
What I stated is a proven fact that has unfortunately prevailed for 40 years. I wish I had an alternative!
I guess an alternative would be to target the source (Iran) and not the puppets (Hamas and Hizbullah). I have always said that President Bush attacked the wrong country.
Cheers.
I respect your point of view Li'l Mamzer, but you do not have a proof either that it does protect Israeli lives (other than the mainstream government propaganda claim).
When Arafat switched on the second massive wave of terror in 2000, he did so after a relative lull in such Israeli actions. In response, Defensive Shield was able to virtually shut down the Pal Arab terror machine several years later. That's just one example that such deterrence works.
==============================
What I stated is a proven fact that has unfortunately prevailed for 40 years. I wish I had an alternative!
Here's the only alternative as I see it, and it's been proven disastrous: When Israel pulled out of Gaza and left the Arabs there to forge their own new reality, they chose terror at the polls and in deeds, in the form of thousands of rockets, mortars, and cross-border sniping, infiltration, and kidnapping attempts. That's what the lack of Israeli deterrence buys you.
Now, after Cast Lead AND lots of Car Swarm parties (there's your targeted killings) Israeli lives are demonstrably safer.
Must I continue?
======================
I guess an alternative would be to target the source (Iran) and not the puppets (Hamas and Hizbullah). I have always said that President Bush attacked the wrong country.
I'm not disagreeing with you here.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 24, 2010 4:29 am
When Arafat switched on the second massive wave of terror in 2000, he did so after a relative lull in such Israeli actions. In response, Defensive Shield was able to virtually shut down the Pal Arab terror machine several years later. That's just one example that such deterrence works.
==============================
What I stated is a proven fact that has unfortunately prevailed for 40 years. I wish I had an alternative!
Here's the only alternative as I see it, and it's been proven disastrous: When Israel pulled out of Gaza and left the Arabs there to forge their own new reality, they chose terror at the polls and in deeds, in the form of thousands of rockets, mortars, and cross-border sniping, infiltration, and kidnapping attempts. That's what the lack of Israeli deterrence buys you.
Now, after Cast Lead AND lots of Car Swarm parties (there's your targeted killings) Israeli lives are demonstrably safer.
Must I continue?
======================
I guess an alternative would be to target the source (Iran) and not the puppets (Hamas and Hizbullah). I have always said that President Bush attacked the wrong country.
I'm not disagreeing with you here.
If assassination is the only reliable method of thinning the herd of extremist operatives, then so be it.
I imagine that every western intelligence service wishes it had the stones to "do a Mossad" rather than being hogtied by political correctness and the ever present spectre of "public" outcry.
Posted by: James Nash at February 24, 2010 4:56 am
I imagine that every western intelligence service wishes it had the stones to "do a Mossad" rather than being hogtied by political correctness and the ever present spectre of "public" outcry.
I guess an alternative would be to target the source (Iran) and not the puppets (Hamas and Hizbullah). I have always said that President Bush attacked the wrong country.
Iran is a terror-supporting state but so are Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, etc. Targeting only one terror state will empower the others.
Most of Israel's enemies are barely legitimate mobster states. They use terrorism and petrodollars to bribe and extort concessions from Israel, Europe and the rest of the world. These terrorist states destabilize and destroy weaker countries because it is their pleasure to do so. If Israel wasn't capable of defending itself, it would have suffered the fate of the Sudan, Somalia or Afghanistan. The fact that Israel has survived for so long while under such constant attack is proof that it's a resourceful, well managed and legitimate state.
It's not clear if the rulers of mob-terrorist states like Syria and Saudi Arabia are more frightened by the threat of Iran's nukes or the threat that Iran's illegitimate regime will be overthrown by angry citizens - and that the revolution will inspire their own oppressed people. It's especially suspicious when the Saudis are louder than Israel in insisting that Iran must be destroyed.
We in the west make the mistake of treating the rulers of terror-states like legitimate leaders. We give them status and respect they don't deserve. This assassination is a sign that Israel is tired of playing that game. When the petrodollar states decided to use terrorism as a tactic of war, they turned everyone's country, workplace and home into a field of battle. They made those rules, they can die by them.
Posted by: Mary Madigan at February 24, 2010 5:49 am
Iran is a terror-supporting state but so are Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, etc. Targeting only one terror state will empower the others.
Most of Israel's enemies are barely legitimate mobster states. They use terrorism and petrodollars to bribe and extort concessions from Israel, Europe and the rest of the world. These terrorist states destabilize and destroy weaker countries because it is their pleasure to do so. If Israel wasn't capable of defending itself, it would have suffered the fate of the Sudan, Somalia or Afghanistan. The fact that Israel has survived for so long while under such constant attack is proof that it's a resourceful, well managed and legitimate state.
It's not clear if the rulers of mob-terrorist states like Syria and Saudi Arabia are more frightened by the threat of Iran's nukes or the threat that Iran's illegitimate regime will be overthrown by angry citizens - and that the revolution will inspire their own oppressed people. It's especially suspicious when the Saudis are louder than Israel in insisting that Iran must be destroyed.
We in the west make the mistake of treating the rulers of terror-states like legitimate leaders. We give them status and respect they don't deserve. This assassination is a sign that Israel is tired of playing that game. When the petrodollar states decided to use terrorism as a tactic of war, they turned everyone's country, workplace and home into a field of battle. They made those rules, they can die by them.
Michael, you may be interested in this piece of news:
http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/25076.htm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
According to a Qatari paper, Obama is seriously considering removing Syria from its list of terror-sponsoring states. On top of removing the travel warnings and sending an ambassador.
Just great.
Posted by: jooliz at February 24, 2010 9:04 am
http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/25076.htm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
According to a Qatari paper, Obama is seriously considering removing Syria from its list of terror-sponsoring states. On top of removing the travel warnings and sending an ambassador.
Just great.
"It is a certain 'cause' that drives them even if it means sacrificing civilians, Mabhouhs or even your own children. "
Every terror leader is a queen bee; almost all the workers, drones, etc. are expendable. See how they value them, something like nine hundred Arabs to one Israeli, right?
Posted by: Solomon2 at February 24, 2010 11:07 am
Every terror leader is a queen bee; almost all the workers, drones, etc. are expendable. See how they value them, something like nine hundred Arabs to one Israeli, right?
According to a Qatari paper, Obama is seriously considering removing Syria from its list of terror-sponsoring states.
That's just about too damn stupid to be believable, and I can't take it seriously if it's only being reported by Qatar.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 24, 2010 11:09 am
That's just about too damn stupid to be believable, and I can't take it seriously if it's only being reported by Qatar.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8529625.stm
More like this please....
According to several reports this character's doomed flight took off from.... Dubai.
Meanwhile the official Iranian media reported very little of al-Mabhouh's untimely demise.
I wonder if a bit of a backroom quid-pro-quo deal went down somewhere....
Posted by: Microraptor at February 24, 2010 11:21 am
More like this please....
According to several reports this character's doomed flight took off from.... Dubai.
Meanwhile the official Iranian media reported very little of al-Mabhouh's untimely demise.
I wonder if a bit of a backroom quid-pro-quo deal went down somewhere....
48-hour rule w.r.t. MEMRI.
Posted by: gus3 at February 24, 2010 12:09 pm
Yeah -- seems to ONLY be reported in the Qatari paper, and may well be a rehash of speculation from early last year.
If I had had the time earlier I would have dug deeper and realized it wasn't worth posting,
My bad.
Posted by: jooliz at February 24, 2010 1:48 pm
If I had had the time earlier I would have dug deeper and realized it wasn't worth posting,
My bad.
Whether scuttlebutt or truth, over-the-top-and-around-the-bend "too damn stupid" can serve a useful purpose.
Since bending over backwards hasn't worked, I'll lay on the ground, let you walk over me, and see if that
1. gets you to respect me.
2. gets you to reason with me and change your ways.
It may ("may"; I'm no optimist) act as a loud enough warning bell to wake enough of even the soundest sleepers.
But, when an American Secretary of State lectures jihadists about being "reasonable", the spectrum of possibilities can only be imagined.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 24, 2010 4:06 pm
Since bending over backwards hasn't worked, I'll lay on the ground, let you walk over me, and see if that
1. gets you to respect me.
2. gets you to reason with me and change your ways.
It may ("may"; I'm no optimist) act as a loud enough warning bell to wake enough of even the soundest sleepers.
But, when an American Secretary of State lectures jihadists about being "reasonable", the spectrum of possibilities can only be imagined.
Case in point, from Austin Bay:
"Obama Discovers Iran's Preconditions"
February 23, 2010
http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/default.asp
"Iran is moving toward a military dictatorship," (American Secretary of State Hillary) Clinton said."The trend with this greater and greater military lock on leadership decisions should be disturbing to Iranians as well as those of us on the outside."
To which Austin Bay responds, "Trend?"
Posted by: Paul S. at February 24, 2010 5:01 pm
"Obama Discovers Iran's Preconditions"
February 23, 2010
http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/default.asp
"Iran is moving toward a military dictatorship," (American Secretary of State Hillary) Clinton said."The trend with this greater and greater military lock on leadership decisions should be disturbing to Iranians as well as those of us on the outside."
To which Austin Bay responds, "Trend?"
I'm not convinced Mossad was behind it. I find it hard to believe that the vaunted Mossad has been reduced to identity theft of its own citizens in order to pull off operations. I've also read a report that two of the alleged assassins took a boat to Iran after the hit. Why would Israel use passports from Germany, Ireland, Britain, France, Australia (am I missing any) knowing full well the diplomatic fall out? One country, maybe, but THAT many? Maybe some other Middle Eastern actor wanted to get rid of him for whatever reason and figured they could kill two birds with one stone: get rid of Mahbouh and finger Israel. I don't know how these types of operations work, but at this point we're up to nearly 30 people involved. This seems excessive. If a different party wanted to make it look like Israel did while getting Israel 'in trouble' with the EU and others, it makes sense to have superfluous operatives involved just to get Israel in trouble with more countries. "Hey, if we're going to pull this off, let's get a few more people, give them some foreign passports and that way we'll put more heat on Israel."
I'm not saying Mossad didn't do it; I'm just saying I'm not entirely convinced they did.
Either way, good riddance.
Posted by: semite5000 at February 24, 2010 5:51 pm
I'm not saying Mossad didn't do it; I'm just saying I'm not entirely convinced they did.
Either way, good riddance.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=169598
'3 Dubai suspects fled through Iran'
If you are Mossad, why flee into the mouth of the lion after conducting an operation?
And below is backlash from the Israeli public about the identity theft of Israeli citizens. Since when has Mossad ever done this before???
Excerpt:
Some Hebrew media reports suggested that there were more Israeli citizens who shared names with those on the Dubai Police list.
Korman, 34, works at a musical instrument repair shop in Tel Aviv. He expressed concern over how he would travel abroad in the future, adding that he visited Australia regularly.
“I’ve never been to Dubai or the Gulf emirates. I feel scared and shocked since hearing about this,” he added, describing the use of the names on the passports as “irresponsible” and “a violation of human rights and the rights of the individual.”
Gabriella Barney – the daughter of Michael
Barney, a British Israeli man whose name appeared on a list of alleged assassins released by Dubai last week – found her own name on the expanded list on Wednesday.
The Barney family, based at Kibbutz Beit Ha’emek in the Galilee, has expressed shock at the development. Friends said the family was “in a state of shock” and was worried about future travel abroad.
During the press conference, Dubai Police said
that “friendly nations that cooperated with the investigation confirmed that the passports were issued in an illegal and fraudulent manner, and the pictures on the travel documents did not correspond to the original owners.”
Posted by: semite5000 at February 24, 2010 9:05 pm
'3 Dubai suspects fled through Iran'
If you are Mossad, why flee into the mouth of the lion after conducting an operation?
And below is backlash from the Israeli public about the identity theft of Israeli citizens. Since when has Mossad ever done this before???
Excerpt:
Some Hebrew media reports suggested that there were more Israeli citizens who shared names with those on the Dubai Police list.
Korman, 34, works at a musical instrument repair shop in Tel Aviv. He expressed concern over how he would travel abroad in the future, adding that he visited Australia regularly.
“I’ve never been to Dubai or the Gulf emirates. I feel scared and shocked since hearing about this,” he added, describing the use of the names on the passports as “irresponsible” and “a violation of human rights and the rights of the individual.”
Gabriella Barney – the daughter of Michael
Barney, a British Israeli man whose name appeared on a list of alleged assassins released by Dubai last week – found her own name on the expanded list on Wednesday.
The Barney family, based at Kibbutz Beit Ha’emek in the Galilee, has expressed shock at the development. Friends said the family was “in a state of shock” and was worried about future travel abroad.
During the press conference, Dubai Police said
that “friendly nations that cooperated with the investigation confirmed that the passports were issued in an illegal and fraudulent manner, and the pictures on the travel documents did not correspond to the original owners.”
please wipe my last name from the previous submission. I did not intend for that to be included. thanks.
"Al-Mabhouh was a terrorist commander on a mission to acquire Iranian weapons for use against civilians."
By your reasoning, and those of the other people commenting on this thread, Hamas or Hezbollah would be perfectly justified in assassinating various Israeli politicians and military people. Unless you want to pretend that the weapons Israel acquires are not for use against civilians.
Posted by: Seth at February 25, 2010 12:19 pm
"Al-Mabhouh was a terrorist commander on a mission to acquire Iranian weapons for use against civilians."
By your reasoning, and those of the other people commenting on this thread, Hamas or Hezbollah would be perfectly justified in assassinating various Israeli politicians and military people. Unless you want to pretend that the weapons Israel acquires are not for use against civilians.
By your reasoning, and those of the other people commenting on this thread, Hamas or Hezbollah would be perfectly justified in assassinating various Israeli politicians and military people.
If Hamas and Hezbollah had the ability to do this (and to survive the consequences), they'd do it in a New York minute. They are at war with Israel after all.
And what on earth is 'assassinating military people?'
Hamas and Hezbollah are using every resource they've got in their effort to destroy Israel, including their primary weapon, propaganda. They'll never win because they're weak, disorganized, corrupt and incompetent, but this sad mismatch of a war will go on until their oil-rich sponsors run out of money.
Posted by: Mary Madigan at February 25, 2010 1:12 pm
If Hamas and Hezbollah had the ability to do this (and to survive the consequences), they'd do it in a New York minute. They are at war with Israel after all.
And what on earth is 'assassinating military people?'
Hamas and Hezbollah are using every resource they've got in their effort to destroy Israel, including their primary weapon, propaganda. They'll never win because they're weak, disorganized, corrupt and incompetent, but this sad mismatch of a war will go on until their oil-rich sponsors run out of money.
If those manning rockets and mortars, shown in IDF Cast Lead surveillance videos, are "civilians", let the war against "civilians" continue, to victory, for the sake of the children of Sderot alone. This notion that jihadist terrorism would adhere to any gentlemen's set of rules exemplifies the insanity the civilized world faces and must defeat, by any means necessary.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 25, 2010 1:19 pm
Seth says: "By your reasoning, and those of the other people commenting on this thread, Hamas or Hezbollah would be perfectly justified in assassinating various Israeli politicians and military people. Unless you want to pretend that the weapons Israel acquires are not for use against civilians."
It's incredible how incompetent the IDF really is, don't you think? They have thousands of state-of-the-art Merkava tanks, hundreds of F16s and close to one F15s, a fleet of upgraded Apache helicopters, world-class training, logistics, and command-and-control systems, and lots of other things as well. Perhaps even a few nuclear weapons stashed away. All for use against civilians?
Never in the history of warfare has an army so well-equipped and so well-trained sucked so badly, right? If Jews are so smart - you know, all those Nobel prizes and doctors everywhere, why can't they seem to stop the Arabs from multiplying?
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 25, 2010 2:59 pm
It's incredible how incompetent the IDF really is, don't you think? They have thousands of state-of-the-art Merkava tanks, hundreds of F16s and close to one F15s, a fleet of upgraded Apache helicopters, world-class training, logistics, and command-and-control systems, and lots of other things as well. Perhaps even a few nuclear weapons stashed away. All for use against civilians?
Never in the history of warfare has an army so well-equipped and so well-trained sucked so badly, right? If Jews are so smart - you know, all those Nobel prizes and doctors everywhere, why can't they seem to stop the Arabs from multiplying?
close to one F15s
close to one hundred, it should have read
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 25, 2010 3:00 pm
close to one hundred, it should have read
The point again is one of consistency. If Israel has the right to assassinate a Hamas military commander because he was acquiring weapons for use against civilians, then Hamas and Hezbelloh have the right to assassinate Israelis in the process of acquiring weapons for use against civilians. Note the *if* - I don't agree with either aspect of that.
People like Paul S. simply deny that victims of Israel weapons are civilians, and there is little to say to someone like that. Li'l Mamzer is even more out there, with bizarre references to "If Jews are so smart..." etc. Surely it should be obvious that accepting the overwhelming evidence of Israeli responsibility for civilian deaths is not contradicted by their not being able to "stop the Arabs from multiplying, in Mamzer's charming little phrase.
To take one obvious example, consider the cluster bombs that Israel dropped on South Lebanon at the end of the 2006 war. I don't see how anybody can read the easily available documentation on that - such as the Human Rights Watch report or the Amnesty reports - and come to any conclusion other than it was obvious what the effect of that would be. And indeed, last time I checked the numbers, since the end of the war - not even during the war, but since the so-called "end" - more Lebanese civilians and demining workers have been killed (in addition to those maimed) - then all the Israelis killed by Hamas rockets. This is particularly the case since for 2 1/2 years or so Israel refused to even hand over the strike data that might have helped in the demining efforts.
By Michael Totten's reasoning, if he was consistent in his concern for civilian deaths, Hezbollah would be justified in trying to assassinate all Israeli leaders involved in acquiring those weapons. And the response then should be, "more like this, please". And by the reasoning of some of the commentators on here, Hezbollah should go to "the source", which in this case is the United States, since we supplied most of those bombs.
I don't think any sane person would agree with those conclusions - I certainly don't - but it seems to follow from the logic here, if one takes the step of not assuming some civilian deaths matter and others don't.
Posted by: Seth at February 25, 2010 3:38 pm
People like Paul S. simply deny that victims of Israel weapons are civilians, and there is little to say to someone like that. Li'l Mamzer is even more out there, with bizarre references to "If Jews are so smart..." etc. Surely it should be obvious that accepting the overwhelming evidence of Israeli responsibility for civilian deaths is not contradicted by their not being able to "stop the Arabs from multiplying, in Mamzer's charming little phrase.
To take one obvious example, consider the cluster bombs that Israel dropped on South Lebanon at the end of the 2006 war. I don't see how anybody can read the easily available documentation on that - such as the Human Rights Watch report or the Amnesty reports - and come to any conclusion other than it was obvious what the effect of that would be. And indeed, last time I checked the numbers, since the end of the war - not even during the war, but since the so-called "end" - more Lebanese civilians and demining workers have been killed (in addition to those maimed) - then all the Israelis killed by Hamas rockets. This is particularly the case since for 2 1/2 years or so Israel refused to even hand over the strike data that might have helped in the demining efforts.
By Michael Totten's reasoning, if he was consistent in his concern for civilian deaths, Hezbollah would be justified in trying to assassinate all Israeli leaders involved in acquiring those weapons. And the response then should be, "more like this, please". And by the reasoning of some of the commentators on here, Hezbollah should go to "the source", which in this case is the United States, since we supplied most of those bombs.
I don't think any sane person would agree with those conclusions - I certainly don't - but it seems to follow from the logic here, if one takes the step of not assuming some civilian deaths matter and others don't.
Surely it should be obvious that accepting the overwhelming evidence of Israeli responsibility for civilian deaths is not contradicted by their not being able to "stop the Arabs from multiplying, in Mamzer's charming little phrase.
I don't see anyone denying that some civilians are killed when the IDF fights back. The reasons why some civilians die should be obvious to anyone. The issue with you is whether or not the IDF targets civilians. You say they do. Impartial observers know that civilian deaths are, unfortunately, unavoidable when the enemy entrenches itself (read: uses the civilian population as human shields) among non-combatants.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 25, 2010 3:57 pm
I don't see anyone denying that some civilians are killed when the IDF fights back. The reasons why some civilians die should be obvious to anyone. The issue with you is whether or not the IDF targets civilians. You say they do. Impartial observers know that civilian deaths are, unfortunately, unavoidable when the enemy entrenches itself (read: uses the civilian population as human shields) among non-combatants.
I don't see how anybody can read the easily available documentation on that - such as the Human Rights Watch report or the Amnesty reports - and come to any conclusion other than it was obvious what the effect of that would be.
That's because you don't seem to regard those corrupt, terror-coddling organizations as hostile to Israel's right to defend her citizens.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 25, 2010 4:06 pm
That's because you don't seem to regard those corrupt, terror-coddling organizations as hostile to Israel's right to defend her citizens.
Li'l Mamzer is even more out there, with bizarre references to "If Jews are so smart..." etc. Surely it should be obvious that accepting the overwhelming evidence of Israeli responsibility for civilian deaths is not contradicted by their not being able to "stop the Arabs from multiplying, in Mamzer's charming little phrase.
You assert that the weapons Israel buys for her army are intended to be used against civilians. That's why I answered your asinine comment the way I did. And it was less than you deserved; I was feeling generous.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 25, 2010 4:34 pm
You assert that the weapons Israel buys for her army are intended to be used against civilians. That's why I answered your asinine comment the way I did. And it was less than you deserved; I was feeling generous.
It is irrelevant whether someone says weapons are not intended against civilians. What is relevant is whether the weapons are actually used against civilians. What "impartial observers" are you referring to? The documentary evidence accumulated by all leading human rights organizations is fairly overwhelming on this point, again sticking for the moment to Lebanon, regarding "The indiscriminate killings of many Lebanese civilians not involved in the hostilities and the deliberate and wanton destruction of civilian properties and infrastructure on a massive scale", as Amnesty put it.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17631
And do you seriously suggest that those ordering the dropping of the cluster bombs were not fully aware of what it meant for the civilians in that area? Just the Israeli refuse to assist in the most minimal way possible with the demining efforts of the bombs significantly contributed to more civilian deaths than all the rockets fired by Hamas. Again, by your reasoning, and Michael Totten's, the Israeli officials involved in obtaining those bombs should all be assassinated.
Posted by: Seth at February 25, 2010 4:57 pm
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17631
And do you seriously suggest that those ordering the dropping of the cluster bombs were not fully aware of what it meant for the civilians in that area? Just the Israeli refuse to assist in the most minimal way possible with the demining efforts of the bombs significantly contributed to more civilian deaths than all the rockets fired by Hamas. Again, by your reasoning, and Michael Totten's, the Israeli officials involved in obtaining those bombs should all be assassinated.
Methinks someone here has a hard time, as far as killed civilians are concerned, distinguishing between the regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage to willing or unwilling human shields that occurs in the pursuit of enemy combatants during battle and making the premeditated murder of civilians in terror attacks one's primary objective. And highlighting Hamas' fortunate ineptitude, since the wall was built and they lost their splodeydope capacity, at succeeding in slaughtering the Israeli civilians they purposefully target, does not even begin to obliterate this distinction.
Posted by: Salamantis at February 25, 2010 5:52 pm
Seth, get a brain!
You're reading what you want to read and ignoring what does fit your thesis.
Maybe we should go after Petraeus and McCrystal for killing civilians in Iraq and Afganistan. When was the last time the Americans dropped notices of impending attacks to warn civilians, or called them by phone to warn them...NEVER And yet the Israelis do it every time.
And yet the likes of you carp and whine that some civilians were killed and swallow everything that those execrable AI and HRW as long as its Israel's supposed actions.
How many of those civilians were really Hamas or Hezb'allah? How many were out on the streets cheering on Hezb'allah, screaming "Death to the Jews!" when they sent off their rockets into Northern Israel targeting, of course, military bases. And when a few of those "civilians" get killed, the whining never ceases. Thanks for adding to that odious chorus.
And while your at it lets assassinate Curtis LeMay, or Arthur Harris etc etc. They bombed Japanese and German cities... oops, they're already dead.
Where was AI or HRW in condemning Hez. or Hamas using civilian shields, even though the evidence is overwhelming? Well, we can't have any criticism of those Arabs...that wouldn't be cricket, now, would it?
If we can't find anything on which to blame the Jews, no problem, we'll just make it up.
AI, HRW and their running dogs are all odious little terrorist enablers who wouldn't know objectivity or truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass!
But, hey at least your unequivocal... "don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up"
And to quote AI.UK too...Wow!
Posted by: yesjb at February 25, 2010 6:06 pm
You're reading what you want to read and ignoring what does fit your thesis.
Maybe we should go after Petraeus and McCrystal for killing civilians in Iraq and Afganistan. When was the last time the Americans dropped notices of impending attacks to warn civilians, or called them by phone to warn them...NEVER And yet the Israelis do it every time.
And yet the likes of you carp and whine that some civilians were killed and swallow everything that those execrable AI and HRW as long as its Israel's supposed actions.
How many of those civilians were really Hamas or Hezb'allah? How many were out on the streets cheering on Hezb'allah, screaming "Death to the Jews!" when they sent off their rockets into Northern Israel targeting, of course, military bases. And when a few of those "civilians" get killed, the whining never ceases. Thanks for adding to that odious chorus.
And while your at it lets assassinate Curtis LeMay, or Arthur Harris etc etc. They bombed Japanese and German cities... oops, they're already dead.
Where was AI or HRW in condemning Hez. or Hamas using civilian shields, even though the evidence is overwhelming? Well, we can't have any criticism of those Arabs...that wouldn't be cricket, now, would it?
If we can't find anything on which to blame the Jews, no problem, we'll just make it up.
AI, HRW and their running dogs are all odious little terrorist enablers who wouldn't know objectivity or truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass!
But, hey at least your unequivocal... "don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up"
And to quote AI.UK too...Wow!
Civilians get killed in every war, Seth. Even so, regular soldiers aren't war criminals while terrorists who target civilians are. International law and the Geneva Convention could not be any clearer on this point than they already are.
I suggest you read the Geneva Convention documents carefully. It won't take long.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 25, 2010 6:11 pm
I suggest you read the Geneva Convention documents carefully. It won't take long.
I made no comment about "regular soldiers". The AI article I linked to referred to "grave violations of international humanitarian law - including war crimes - committed by Israeli forces." Of course this is just one report of many with this conclusion. Further, the report
calls on Israel to:
"Establish an independent and impartial investigation into evidence indicating that its forces committed serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law during the conflict, including war crimes, and ensure that those responsible are brought to justice."
The issue is the consistency of application of international law regarding assassinations. By the arguments here, "those responsible" for Israeli "war crimes" should be assassinated. To update it from Lebanon, if your reasoning was applied consistently, Livni would not be facing arrest warrants. She would simply be killed.
The only comments on here that are worth mentioning are the ones referring to U.S. actions and the hypocrisy of criticizing Israel for actions that the U.S. also carries out, and to a greater extent, as well. There is some validity to that. Other than that, the refusal to actually face the documentary record regarding Israeli actions is really astounding.
Posted by: Seth at February 25, 2010 7:18 pm
calls on Israel to:
"Establish an independent and impartial investigation into evidence indicating that its forces committed serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law during the conflict, including war crimes, and ensure that those responsible are brought to justice."
The issue is the consistency of application of international law regarding assassinations. By the arguments here, "those responsible" for Israeli "war crimes" should be assassinated. To update it from Lebanon, if your reasoning was applied consistently, Livni would not be facing arrest warrants. She would simply be killed.
The only comments on here that are worth mentioning are the ones referring to U.S. actions and the hypocrisy of criticizing Israel for actions that the U.S. also carries out, and to a greater extent, as well. There is some validity to that. Other than that, the refusal to actually face the documentary record regarding Israeli actions is really astounding.
Stating the historically obvious, not that Hamas sympathizers give a rat's butt, no military force today has gone to greater lengths to alert and avoid collateral damage to civilians than Israel. Plain and blunt for the Seth's of the world: jihadism targets my and others' way of life and what we value. I want it destroyed. Innocent civilian? Stand clear.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 25, 2010 7:22 pm
Amnesty International is not an impartial organization. It has been and is, in spite of its name and reputation, an organization which enables the jihad of Islam, and attacks those who oppose jihad. It is a tool of jihadists at the least.
Read Gita Sahgal's recent statement which prompted her firing from...Amnesty International:
"...The issue is a fundamental one about the importance of the human rights movement maintaining an objective distance from groups and ideas that are committed to systematic discrimination and fundamentally undermine the universality of human rights. I have raised this issue because of my firm belief in human rights for all.
I sent two memos to my management asking a series of questions about what considerations were given to the nature of the relationship with Moazzam Begg and his organisation, Cageprisoners. I have received no answer to my questions. There has been a history of warnings within Amnesty that it is inadvisable to partner with Begg. Amnesty has created the impression that Begg is not only a victim of human rights violations but a defender of human rights. Many of my highly respected colleagues, each well-regarded in their area of expertise has said so. Each has been set aside..."
http://www.awid.org/Issues-and-Analysis/Library/Statement-by-Gita-Sahgal-Amnesty-International-and-Cageprisoners
Posted by: del at February 25, 2010 8:23 pm
Read Gita Sahgal's recent statement which prompted her firing from...Amnesty International:
"...The issue is a fundamental one about the importance of the human rights movement maintaining an objective distance from groups and ideas that are committed to systematic discrimination and fundamentally undermine the universality of human rights. I have raised this issue because of my firm belief in human rights for all.
I sent two memos to my management asking a series of questions about what considerations were given to the nature of the relationship with Moazzam Begg and his organisation, Cageprisoners. I have received no answer to my questions. There has been a history of warnings within Amnesty that it is inadvisable to partner with Begg. Amnesty has created the impression that Begg is not only a victim of human rights violations but a defender of human rights. Many of my highly respected colleagues, each well-regarded in their area of expertise has said so. Each has been set aside..."
http://www.awid.org/Issues-and-Analysis/Library/Statement-by-Gita-Sahgal-Amnesty-International-and-Cageprisoners
When was the last time the Americans dropped notices of impending attacks to warn civilians, or called them by phone to warn them...NEVER
Well, actually, Americans do have a habit of warning civilians before an attack. From an article titled "Fallujah Invasion Nears"
One ominous sign of the impending attack came in the form of leaflets dropped into Fallujah by US aircraft. Residents told the Associated Press the leaflets warn women and children -- but not adult male noncombatants -- to leave the city for their own safety. In fact, Reuters reports that US troops have announced via loudspeakers that any man under the age of 45 caught entering or leaving the city will be detained.
Posted by: Mary Madigan at February 25, 2010 8:42 pm
Well, actually, Americans do have a habit of warning civilians before an attack. From an article titled "Fallujah Invasion Nears"
One ominous sign of the impending attack came in the form of leaflets dropped into Fallujah by US aircraft. Residents told the Associated Press the leaflets warn women and children -- but not adult male noncombatants -- to leave the city for their own safety. In fact, Reuters reports that US troops have announced via loudspeakers that any man under the age of 45 caught entering or leaving the city will be detained.
"The only comments on here that are worth mentioning are the ones referring to U.S. actions and the hypocrisy of criticizing Israel for actions that the U.S. also carries out,"
Yes, the only thing wrong with demonizing Israel is that we aren't demonizing the US even more!
Tell me, Seth, which of these governments would you rather live under:
US
Israel
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Sudan
Hamas
Posted by: Gary Rosen at February 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Yes, the only thing wrong with demonizing Israel is that we aren't demonizing the US even more!
Tell me, Seth, which of these governments would you rather live under:
US
Israel
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Sudan
Hamas
Gary, the answer is the U.S. It is of course possible to admire and enjoy the positive aspects of the US while not admiring, and working against, the murderous aspects of its foreign policy. What is the point of your question? "love it or leave it" went out a long time ago.
The idea that pointing out the murderous and criminal aspects of US or Israeli foreign policy is "demonizing" those societies is really something. Identification of the military with the country itself is a very ugly thing.
Posted by: Seth at February 25, 2010 9:53 pm
The idea that pointing out the murderous and criminal aspects of US or Israeli foreign policy is "demonizing" those societies is really something. Identification of the military with the country itself is a very ugly thing.
Now I see where I went wrong. How could I possibly have gotten the idea that Seth is demonizing the US and Israel when all he is doing is calling them "criminal[s]" and "murder[ers]". I think we all owe Seth a big apology, don't you?
Posted by: Gary Rosen at February 26, 2010 12:31 am
Seth, your current myopia---which I hope will lift over time; perhaps you're still young---may someday come to appreciate the following.
As a native born American, who calls the men and women who volunteer to serve their country my heroes, I identify them as America's elite, to use Michael Yon's phrase; heroes of the highest order to millions of my fellow Americans as well.
Iraqis, able to vote, educate their children and run their businesses in relative safety today, also acknowledge what the sacrifices of the American military have done for them. Having followed their missions for years, I've learned of the generosity of American military personnel who, along with family members and friends, voluntarily donate their time and limited financial resources to aid Iraqis in need of wheelchairs, school supplies, clothing...whatever the need may be, recognized onsite as not being met otherwise. No one tells Americans to do any of this; we do it because this is who we are.
The bottom line is had America---through the representatives of its military---ever come to Iraq, or earlier to Italy or Germany, for conquest rather than liberation, the face of history would be radically different today, in ways honesty could never deny.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 26, 2010 1:50 am
As a native born American, who calls the men and women who volunteer to serve their country my heroes, I identify them as America's elite, to use Michael Yon's phrase; heroes of the highest order to millions of my fellow Americans as well.
Iraqis, able to vote, educate their children and run their businesses in relative safety today, also acknowledge what the sacrifices of the American military have done for them. Having followed their missions for years, I've learned of the generosity of American military personnel who, along with family members and friends, voluntarily donate their time and limited financial resources to aid Iraqis in need of wheelchairs, school supplies, clothing...whatever the need may be, recognized onsite as not being met otherwise. No one tells Americans to do any of this; we do it because this is who we are.
The bottom line is had America---through the representatives of its military---ever come to Iraq, or earlier to Italy or Germany, for conquest rather than liberation, the face of history would be radically different today, in ways honesty could never deny.
My apologies, Mary.
I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. I usually don't rely on Reuters for news.
Posted by: yesjb at February 26, 2010 3:36 am
I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. I usually don't rely on Reuters for news.
Here's a question. What parts of the international law regarding war do Hamas or Hezbollah keep to? (Or the Taliban.)
I believe the answer is none.
So why is it so hard to see that there is a difference between bodies who fight wars in ways which completely disregard the laws of war (are perfect, indeed, in their disregard) and states which are imperfect in keeping to laws they do acknowledge.
There is also a nasty incentive structure here. If Israel is always cast as the villain, then there comes a point where there is no mileage in them making any effort to keep the rules. Selective concern about rules undermines the rules themselves because it makes it clear that they are, in fact, not rules.
Posted by: Lorenzo at February 26, 2010 4:03 am
I believe the answer is none.
So why is it so hard to see that there is a difference between bodies who fight wars in ways which completely disregard the laws of war (are perfect, indeed, in their disregard) and states which are imperfect in keeping to laws they do acknowledge.
There is also a nasty incentive structure here. If Israel is always cast as the villain, then there comes a point where there is no mileage in them making any effort to keep the rules. Selective concern about rules undermines the rules themselves because it makes it clear that they are, in fact, not rules.
Seth;
Do you really believe a war can be conducted cleanly without the unintended death of a single civilian?
Posted by: Toady at February 26, 2010 6:48 am
Do you really believe a war can be conducted cleanly without the unintended death of a single civilian?
Guys,
Put it to rest. Israel is not in a position to wage any war for the time being without sacrificing a substantial amount of losses. This is the point where the next war would be a war of existentialism where losses, Geneva convention and decency would not be catered for.
Unfortunately, Iran (the only Shia country on planet Earth) has the same existentialism problem as Israel (the only Jewish country on planet Earth). An existentialism war calls for desperate measures that neither Iran nor Israel are ready for YET!
Till then, no intermediate wars will take place.
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 26, 2010 9:04 am
Put it to rest. Israel is not in a position to wage any war for the time being without sacrificing a substantial amount of losses. This is the point where the next war would be a war of existentialism where losses, Geneva convention and decency would not be catered for.
Unfortunately, Iran (the only Shia country on planet Earth) has the same existentialism problem as Israel (the only Jewish country on planet Earth). An existentialism war calls for desperate measures that neither Iran nor Israel are ready for YET!
Till then, no intermediate wars will take place.
Kazamaza,
Iraq and Azerbaijan also have Shia majorities.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 26, 2010 9:53 am
Iraq and Azerbaijan also have Shia majorities.
Germane to this discussion is an article by Jeffrey White on the website of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. The title of White's essay (February 25) is "Resistance and Rockets." The article documents extensively Hamas efforts to target civilian populations within Israel and uses Hamas' own media to prove the allegations. White concludes thus:
"Hamas targeting of civilians is not an Israeli fabrication -- the group has used its own elaborate media networks to publicize and praise rocket operations throughout the conflict. Hamas views attacks on civilians as legitimate, appropriate, effective, and even heroic. Such strikes are fundamental to its operations -- part of the Hamas way of war.
It is primarily because Hamas's weapons are limited in accuracy and destructive power that more civilians are not killed and wounded. Hamas is working hard to address these limitations, however, through the acquisiton of more-effective and longer-range rockets; as recently as January 15, 2010, Mashal threatened to turn Israel into a cemetery once the next round of major hostilities erupts. Such ambitions should be remembered as Western leaders evaluate Hamas's conduct of war and consider their positions toward the group."
Posted by: Harold at February 26, 2010 10:09 am
"Hamas targeting of civilians is not an Israeli fabrication -- the group has used its own elaborate media networks to publicize and praise rocket operations throughout the conflict. Hamas views attacks on civilians as legitimate, appropriate, effective, and even heroic. Such strikes are fundamental to its operations -- part of the Hamas way of war.
It is primarily because Hamas's weapons are limited in accuracy and destructive power that more civilians are not killed and wounded. Hamas is working hard to address these limitations, however, through the acquisiton of more-effective and longer-range rockets; as recently as January 15, 2010, Mashal threatened to turn Israel into a cemetery once the next round of major hostilities erupts. Such ambitions should be remembered as Western leaders evaluate Hamas's conduct of war and consider their positions toward the group."
Yes Michael, so does Bahrain and several other countries. Still, the only Shia country is Iran.
Same goes for the Jewish people. If you destroy Israel, Jewish people will still survive all over the globe, but still their existentialism would be gone for good.
Unfortunately for us here in Lebanon, we are stuck between 2 evils (Iran with its puppet Hizbullah and Israel).
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 26, 2010 10:31 am
Same goes for the Jewish people. If you destroy Israel, Jewish people will still survive all over the globe, but still their existentialism would be gone for good.
Unfortunately for us here in Lebanon, we are stuck between 2 evils (Iran with its puppet Hizbullah and Israel).
Kazamaza,
Israel will leave Lebanon alone if Hezbollah leaves Israel alone.
Why is this difficult for so many people in Lebanon to understand? I know lots of Lebanese who get it, but why don't you get it? You don't have to like Israel in order to understand how this works.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at February 26, 2010 10:56 am
Israel will leave Lebanon alone if Hezbollah leaves Israel alone.
Why is this difficult for so many people in Lebanon to understand? I know lots of Lebanese who get it, but why don't you get it? You don't have to like Israel in order to understand how this works.
Michael,
No doubt about what you are saying but still it goes the other way around as well. Hizbullah will stop to exist if Israel leaves it alone (by giving back the Lebanese occupied land and stops its airplanes from entering Lebanese airspace).
Everyone knows that getting rid of Hizbullah is done by either eliminating the "raison d'ètre" or by destroying it's puppet master (Iran).
Anyway, this is not the right place to dwell on such an off-topic, the number of comments has reached a record number.
The bottom-line is that there will NOT be any war soon. But when it happens it will be nastier than you can imagine.
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 26, 2010 11:07 am
No doubt about what you are saying but still it goes the other way around as well. Hizbullah will stop to exist if Israel leaves it alone (by giving back the Lebanese occupied land and stops its airplanes from entering Lebanese airspace).
Everyone knows that getting rid of Hizbullah is done by either eliminating the "raison d'ètre" or by destroying it's puppet master (Iran).
Anyway, this is not the right place to dwell on such an off-topic, the number of comments has reached a record number.
The bottom-line is that there will NOT be any war soon. But when it happens it will be nastier than you can imagine.
Kazamaza: "If you destroy Israel, Jewish people will still survive all over the globe, but still their existentialism would be gone for good." That's probably what a lot of people thought when the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple in 70 CE. Oppressors have been dancing on our "grave" for the past 3200 years (the time of the Merneptah stele).
Posted by: Harold at February 26, 2010 11:25 am
"Hizbullah will stop to exist if Israel leaves it alone (by giving back the Lebanese occupied land and stops its airplanes from entering Lebanese airspace). "
I'm sorry if you really believe this. Hezbollah simply uses those as smoke screens to justify their existence and weaken the government. They say "Hey, they can't defend you against Israel! You need us!" while at the same time making sure the government never will be able to. Israel just makes a convenient catch-22 so they can maintain their relevancy. Iran is there to insure their potency.
Posted by: KellyC at February 26, 2010 12:59 pm
I'm sorry if you really believe this. Hezbollah simply uses those as smoke screens to justify their existence and weaken the government. They say "Hey, they can't defend you against Israel! You need us!" while at the same time making sure the government never will be able to. Israel just makes a convenient catch-22 so they can maintain their relevancy. Iran is there to insure their potency.
Kazamaza,
"Lebanese occupied land"? Are you referring to the formerly (until occupied by Israel) Syrian Shebaa Farms?
Even if Israel gave Shebaa Farms back to Syria (which after it lost that area to Israel, sort of, kind of, gave it to Lebanon--all the while treating all of Lebanon as part of Greater Syria anyways), and even if Israeli planes never flew over Lebanon (a country which is in a state of war with Israel, and which has happily tolerated rocket launches from its territory onto Israel), Hezbollah would still have a reason for existence: the existence of Israel.
Actually, for Israel to hand over Shebaa Farms and stop over-flying Lebanon, would whet, rather than sate, Hezbollah's appetite.
Posted by: del at February 26, 2010 9:33 pm
"Lebanese occupied land"? Are you referring to the formerly (until occupied by Israel) Syrian Shebaa Farms?
Even if Israel gave Shebaa Farms back to Syria (which after it lost that area to Israel, sort of, kind of, gave it to Lebanon--all the while treating all of Lebanon as part of Greater Syria anyways), and even if Israeli planes never flew over Lebanon (a country which is in a state of war with Israel, and which has happily tolerated rocket launches from its territory onto Israel), Hezbollah would still have a reason for existence: the existence of Israel.
Actually, for Israel to hand over Shebaa Farms and stop over-flying Lebanon, would whet, rather than sate, Hezbollah's appetite.
Del,
That is your point of view, not mine. I am sure that the Lebanese society will eventually dilute Hizbullah once Shebaa is returned and flights stopped. It might take time, this is not something that would take place overnight.
Nevertheless, it would be very simplistic to talk about Hizbullah as a stand alone case not related to Palestinians, Iran and Syria. unfortunately it has become a single package and it is Israel that is suffering (and will continue) from it unless drastic measures are take.
This brings us again to the point that the time is not ripe yet for such devastating measures. Once the time comes I would not like to be present in the ME region (not even close).
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 26, 2010 10:24 pm
That is your point of view, not mine. I am sure that the Lebanese society will eventually dilute Hizbullah once Shebaa is returned and flights stopped. It might take time, this is not something that would take place overnight.
Nevertheless, it would be very simplistic to talk about Hizbullah as a stand alone case not related to Palestinians, Iran and Syria. unfortunately it has become a single package and it is Israel that is suffering (and will continue) from it unless drastic measures are take.
This brings us again to the point that the time is not ripe yet for such devastating measures. Once the time comes I would not like to be present in the ME region (not even close).
Nevertheless, it would be very simplistic to talk about Hizbullah as a stand alone case not related to Palestinians, Iran and Syria. unfortunately it has become a single package and it is Israel that is suffering (and will continue) from it unless drastic measures are take.
You're right - let's put Hezbollah in their rightful place alongside the genocidal regimes of Iran and Syria. That's the only correct thing you've said so far.
Would you mind explaining what you mean by 'drastic measures'?
Nobody buys into the 'just return Shebaa and stop flying over Lebanon' line. Even now Hezbollah is shifting those lines to include towns in northern Israel that must be 'liberated'. I suppose since you live in Lebanon you need to look after your self, so a certain amount of Syrian/Iranian/Hezbollah ass-kissing is to be expected.
Posted by: Li'l Mamzer at February 27, 2010 6:09 am
You're right - let's put Hezbollah in their rightful place alongside the genocidal regimes of Iran and Syria. That's the only correct thing you've said so far.
Would you mind explaining what you mean by 'drastic measures'?
Nobody buys into the 'just return Shebaa and stop flying over Lebanon' line. Even now Hezbollah is shifting those lines to include towns in northern Israel that must be 'liberated'. I suppose since you live in Lebanon you need to look after your self, so a certain amount of Syrian/Iranian/Hezbollah ass-kissing is to be expected.
Li'l Mamzer,
Noone is ass-kissing. It is a fact that Hizbozo did kick some Tsahal ass in the last war and they are capable of much more now. Still Hizbullah is still a genocidal regime alongside Syria and Iran. No one is disagreeing with you here.
Furthermore I am not saying that Hizbullah will cease to exist by stopping flights and returning the Shebaa farms. All I am saying is to give a chance to the Lebanese society to dilute Hizbullah once the 'Raison d'ètre' has been eliminated.
By 'drastic measures' I meant a full scale war where Iran and Syria are targeted instead of stupid Hamas and Hizbozo who are just puppets in this game.
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 27, 2010 7:15 am
Noone is ass-kissing. It is a fact that Hizbozo did kick some Tsahal ass in the last war and they are capable of much more now. Still Hizbullah is still a genocidal regime alongside Syria and Iran. No one is disagreeing with you here.
Furthermore I am not saying that Hizbullah will cease to exist by stopping flights and returning the Shebaa farms. All I am saying is to give a chance to the Lebanese society to dilute Hizbullah once the 'Raison d'ètre' has been eliminated.
By 'drastic measures' I meant a full scale war where Iran and Syria are targeted instead of stupid Hamas and Hizbozo who are just puppets in this game.
Kaza: "Furthermore I am not saying that Hizbullah will cease to exist by stopping flights and returning the Shebaa farms. All I am saying is to give a chance to the Lebanese society to dilute Hizbullah once the 'Raison d'ètre' has been eliminated."
That's what everybody said about the security belt in southern Lebanon. Once Israel pulls out, Hezbollah's raison d'etre will disappear. Israel did just that in 2000; we all know that Hezbollah didn't dilute. Instead, it got stronger and launched a war against Israel (crossing the border, attacking soldiers and killing/kidnapping them). Same shit happened with Gaza. Same with all territory Israel withdrew from in the West Bank (some of which it has had to reoccupy.
That said, I think I raised a number of interesting points that Israel might not be behind Muhbouh's killing. Nobody replied to any of them. Isn't that was this discussion was supposed to be about? Everybody is completely satisfied Mossad did it?
Posted by: semite5000 at February 27, 2010 8:32 am
That's what everybody said about the security belt in southern Lebanon. Once Israel pulls out, Hezbollah's raison d'etre will disappear. Israel did just that in 2000; we all know that Hezbollah didn't dilute. Instead, it got stronger and launched a war against Israel (crossing the border, attacking soldiers and killing/kidnapping them). Same shit happened with Gaza. Same with all territory Israel withdrew from in the West Bank (some of which it has had to reoccupy.
That said, I think I raised a number of interesting points that Israel might not be behind Muhbouh's killing. Nobody replied to any of them. Isn't that was this discussion was supposed to be about? Everybody is completely satisfied Mossad did it?
Does anyone really doubt that as long as Israel exists the "raison d'ètre" will too? If so, I'd be interested in your evidence that counters semite5000's evidence.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 27, 2010 9:33 pm
I do not need evidence to prove a point of view. It is my 2 cents and you can disagree.
Since you are so smart then If you have an alternative solution then please do state it. We are all ears to your suggestions.
But please, let it be realistic (no stupid military moves, Lebanese civil war, etc...). These are dreams and wishful thinking in the best of cases.
Posted by: Kazamaza at February 27, 2010 11:11 pm
Since you are so smart then If you have an alternative solution then please do state it. We are all ears to your suggestions.
But please, let it be realistic (no stupid military moves, Lebanese civil war, etc...). These are dreams and wishful thinking in the best of cases.
Kazamaza, if you don't understand that evidence, not opinion, proves (not states) a point of view, then you don't appreciate the critical distinction between opinion and proof. I have seen no---evidence---that anything Israel has ever done has tempered desires by irreconcilables to destroy it.
Posted by: Paul S. at February 27, 2010 11:49 pm
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